Scotland vs England - Match Thread - Team News - etc...

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

How the teams line up

England team: B Foden; C Ashton, M Tuilagi, M Tindall, D Armitage; J Wilkinson, B Youngs; M Stevens, S Thompson, D Cole, L Deacon, C Lawes, T Croft, L Moody (capt), J Haskell.

Replacements: D Hartley, A Corbisiero, T Palmer, N Easter, R Wigglesworth, T Flood, M Banahan.

Scotland team: C Paterson; M Evans, J Ansbro, S Lamont, S Danielli; R Jackson, M Blair; A Jacobsen, R Ford, E Murray, R Gray, A Kellock (capt), A Strokosch , J Barclay, R Vernon.

Replacements: S Lawson, A Dickinson, N Hines, R Rennie, C Cusiter, D Parks, N De Luca.



Last 10 meetings

2011 England 22 - 16 Scotland
2010 Scotland 15 - 15 England
2009 England 26 - 12 Scotland
2008 Scotland 15 - 9 England
2007 England 42 - 20 Scotland
2006 Scotland 18 - 12 England
2005 England 43 - 22 Scotland
2004 Scotland 13 - 35 England
2003 England 40 - 9 Scotland
2002 Scotland 3 - 29 England

England 7 - Scotland 2 - Draw 1

England 273 pts - Scotland 143 pts


IMO on paper the Scots might as well start packing their bags, but I have a strange feeling they might just pull it off, Chris Paterson will have plenty of shots at goal if England continue getting penalised at the breakdown and we all know what that means, he very rarely misses unless his wearing cherry and White!

Or am I being silly?


RWC so far

England

Argentina 9 - 13 England
England 41 - 10 Georgia
England 67 - 3 Romania

England PF 121 pts - PA 22pts


Scotland

Scotland 34 - 24 Romania
Scotland 15 - 6 Georgia
Argentina 13 - 12 Scotland

Scotland PF 61 - PA 43


Missed this one,

England 17 tries to Scotlands 4



Discuss

[Knowsit17]

"Wales look like the team to beat in this side of the pool right now. They are miles ahead of the other sides IMHO.."

Your praise worries me. Today could have been upset city and even though it's hard to see Wales not making the QF's even for the least optimistic fan, I shudder to imagine the humiliation if we play as complacently as we're capable of playing tomorrow.

Besides, all we've done is squander a chance to beat the champs, narrowly edge Samoa and put 80 on Namibia. Nothing stand-out. Ireland will have the self-belief after beating the Aussies.

[Notch]

I don't think they are ignoring it Notch. Kellock certainly isn't, he knows they should have created more and said where they need to improve. Think in situations like this you do have to take some positives out though otherwise it would just hurt too much.

Ah sorry dreamer. I wasn't referring to the players but the posters who are congratulating Scotland on their plucky effort. I think maybe a little unfair from me though. Without the attacking game to really worry sides, passion and determination only goes so far. But their players really did give everything they had and it wasn't enough- sport is really cruel like that.

The Scottish player and fans must be devastated and so I feel for them.

[rodders]

England look like they did in the 6N. Their weaknesses are being exposed but they haven't met a side yet good enough to capitalise. How far they go before that happens remains to be seen but there is a real pattern with England when they start losing that forward and breakdown battle.

They give away a lot of soft penalties and a lack of composure spreads across the side. Once their pack got back on top they were a different side but a lot of their players simply can't cope with being on the back foot.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Its rubbish to say that any of the remaining NH sides are miles ahead of the others. They are all very inconsistent and clealry each capable of beating the oother on a given day, look no further than the warm ups.
Wales have played well to get through a tough group ( which they will) but it doesnt suddenly mean they have improved form teh weakest of the 4 to the strongest anymore than Irelands win over Aus sudddnely elevated them to a higher plane of existance.
I would say that Im happy with England facing France, the way they played was well well below what they are capable of (as was Englands performance in this game) and they lost to a much weaker side than scotland. I wouldnt assume that this means france will play as badly next time, but they arent a side to fear at the minute and the cracks in morale are wide open to exploit.

[Guest]

I don't think they are ignoring it Notch. Kellock certainly isn't, he knows they should have created more and said where they need to improve. Think in situations like this you do have to take some positives out though otherwise it would just hurt too much.

Ah sorry dreamer. I wasn't referring to the players but the posters who are congratulating Scotland on their plucky effort. I think maybe a little unfair from me though. Without the attacking game to really worry sides, passion and determination only goes so far. But their players really did give everything they had and it wasn't enough- sport is really cruel like that.

The Scottish player and fans must be devastated and so I feel for them.

Ah yeah I know what you mean. I think you can be proud of their effort but not their performances. Just needs to be better.

[racingnut]

For the neutral,a truly awful spectacle but for us involved it was an epic encounter.That Scotland only took a six point lead in at halftime without doubt was an unfair reflection on their dominance,they had a plan and stuck to it,not pretty but effective.They played old fashoined,in your face rugby and England couldnt seem to get to grips with it.Second half was almost a complete turn around,England stood up to the mark and made territory and possesion count.Scotlands achilles was again their inability to get over the try line,when you dominante like they did in the first half you MUST score.I thought it was inevitable that England would break down the Scots defence at least once,at so it proved.Scotland can take plaudits for their efforts but that is scant consolation,England need to improve in many areas but mention must go to Tuilagi and Armitage in the back division and i thought Flood ,Easter and Palmer made a telling difference when they came on.A quarter against France is nothing new and it seems as though England have a grip over the Gauls when it comes to World Cups,the French looked awful earlier against Tonga and if England can put anything like an A game together then fingers crossed its semis here we come.

[Notch]

Yeah, spot on Peter. It's anybodies for the 'NH final spot' if we see off Italy.

It's the Ifs that make me nervous because they are going to take the game to us in a very big way and it will probably still all be in the balance with 20 to go. It will be war from the Italian pack.

[EnglishReign]

Lets see how Ireland and Wales do tomorrow before we start bigging one of them up as definite finalists. Tonga showed today that anything can happen.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Beating France is certainly enough to give Brioan Moore a semi *snigger*

[HammerofThunor]

Nah, Ireland and Wales are without doubt 100% through

[racingnut]

JJB sports have just reported a sudden surge on the sale of French RWC shirts in their Edinburgh and Glasgow stores,whats all that about!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Lets see how Ireland and Wales do tomorrow before we start bigging one of them up as definite finalists. Tonga showed today that anything can happen.

Or you could argue that even after pretty abject performances the big sides still went through.

The margin of defeat required to put Wales out is massive. Ireland too can go through even with a loss.

[EnglishReign]

Nah, Ireland and Wales are without doubt 100% through

Lets see if they can win convincingly then, I don't necessarily mean they'll go out. But England were basically through before today, they won and are still rubbish.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Nah, Ireland and Wales are without doubt 100% through

Lets see if they can win convincingly then, I don't necessarily mean they'll go out. But England were basically through before today, they won and are still rubbish.

so then we can argue about who is the most rubbish rather than who is the best

[EnglishReign]

Nah, Ireland and Wales are without doubt 100% through

Lets see if they can win convincingly then, I don't necessarily mean they'll go out. But England were basically through before today, they won and are still rubbish.

so then we can argue about who is the most rubbish rather than who is the best

That would please me greatly. I'm sick of all this positive talk.

[doctor_grey]

Good morning all,
Maybe this thought is appropriate for another thread, but where was THIS Scotland al year? This was not a great Scotland team, but was pretty damn good. Best performance they have put up in a long time. would have beaten Argentina with this effort, and wouuld scare the pants off almost anyone.

[alfie]

I wouldn't be stressing over playing Wales /Ireland in the semi yet. Still have to get past France - who were awful today but they are - France. So you never know.
I would expect England to beat them anyway but let us take it a game at a time.

By the way I am not joining the " Flood to start " lobby. He was terrific at the end , but I'd be happy to see him on for the last 15 minutes again next week.
Apart from his goalkicking (and some of those shots were anything but easy) I thought Wilkinson had a good game. Can Flood match him for tackling? I just hope he isn't injured seriously.

Dodged a bullet today maybe. Still undefeated though - what happens if England start playing well ?

[doctor_grey]

The Jonny thing is interesting. Absolutely urine poor with the goal kicking. But his tactical kicking was quite good, when he had any ball he got the backs moving, and ran well. Real enigma.

[rodders]

Its rubbish to say that any of the remaining NH sides are miles ahead of the others.

No it isn't. Wales are on a clear upward curve and are playing very well. I'd bet my mortgage on them beating France or England if they played tomorrow. England and France have shown very little form in this competition and have to raise their games markedly if they want to get to the final.

Ireland are in decent form but there are a few question marks over them too, namely the midfield and half backs. Ireland have a massive game against Italy to get past and are not through yet by any stretch of the imagaination. Tomorrow we'll see what sort of form they are really in.

Wales definitely look in the best shape but much will depend on how much they've learned from the SA game in terms of closing out a tight game. I expect them to hammer Fiji and go into the QF with a real spring in their step.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Flood has to start against France. Different game and it'll be more open, Wilko from bench to see things through.

Wales and Ireland both in better form than us and both will beat us if we play like that.

[Guest]

Flood is the futyre and i feel he should play, i also think hape should start 12, with wilko and tindall being effective coming off the bench.

[aitchw]

Despite falling short that was an immense performance from the Scots as everyone expected. These are humbling times for them but they've got to keep the faith. They're a couple of half backs short of a half decent back line and now we'll never know if Jackson could have made the difference, very sorry for the lad, it was his big opportunity to banish Parks to the hinterland for good. He would have so much good ball today. Don't know anymore where I am on the Andy Robinson debate but am pretty sure Gregor Townsend isn't the backs coach they need. On balance I think AR is still up to the job but he needs players to work with and there isn't the depth to back up the first choices. Tough day for you guys.

Sorry to see them go but relieved to see England dog it out. At least these days we can expect at least one moment of class from the backs.

[boomeranga]

England look like they did in the 6N. Their weaknesses are being exposed but they haven't met a side yet good enough to capitalise. How far they go before that happens remains to be seen but there is a real pattern with England when they start losing that forward and breakdown battle.

They give away a lot of soft penalties and a lack of composure spreads across the side. Once their pack got back on top they were a different side but a lot of their players simply can't cope with being on the back foot.

Couldn't you substitute the name of any team into that statement though?

[EnglishReign]

The dynamic could all change depending on tomorrow's results. I think Wilko is better coming on late and kicking the extra points like he did in the early 6N games. Keep changing my mind, it's a toughy.

[trebellbobaggins]

That is true.

Of course form goes out of the window in knock out rugby.

Eng can beat them as much as they can beat Eng. All on the day.

[lostinwales]

Its easy to say what should or should not have happened and JW's tackling (and some of the tactical kicking) was top notch, but there were times when England should of just kept hold of the ball and gone through phases - or sent the ball out to those nasty backs more - when JW went for a kick. Same with going for the lineout/maul instead of a difficult penalty. England should of held onto the ball more at times - although there was that feeling for a big chunk of the match that Joubert would blow up every time England had the ball.

Long winded way of saying start with Flood bring on JW near the end.

Scotland exactly as expected but you cant help feeling that they would still drop the ball infront of the line even playing unopposed

[rodders]

England look like they did in the 6N. Their weaknesses are being exposed but they haven't met a side yet good enough to capitalise. How far they go before that happens remains to be seen but there is a real pattern with England when they start losing that forward and breakdown battle.

They give away a lot of soft penalties and a lack of composure spreads across the side. Once their pack got back on top they were a different side but a lot of their players simply can't cope with being on the back foot.

Couldn't you substitute the name of any team into that statement though?

Not really no.

[PJHolybloke]

First of all, well played Scotland, barring a miracle they will be out of the WC as a result of just not scoring tries. In all other areas today they either matched or bettered England, and if I am totally objective should have won the game.

If you look at their stats for the game today, all of their backs made decent yards in comparison to England's, where only Tuilagi, Armitage and Foden produced anything.

Most tellingly though are Ashton's stats 13 metres, 2 runs, no breaks, no defenders beaten and no offloads. So all game he managed 2 runs with an average of 6.5 metres each but scored the try that won the match.

There is something badly amiss in the Scotland set-up, I think most agree on that, but if there is one positive Scotland can draw on is that it shouldn't take much to put right, should it?

It appears to be so small a problem that it doesn't leap out at you, there is maybe a need for better support on go forward ball and maybe a little more cohesion between the forwards and the backs, but apart from that Scotland seem to have enough to beat almost anyone.

I'll be sad to see Scotland make (in all likelyhood) an early exit from the WC, but the last 2 games have shown they are very, very close to being pool winners.

[lostinwales]

Well it wasnt until late into the game that England actually sent the ball wide - and they werent confident enough before to let Ashton come inside too often. They just didnt have the ball long enough in the first half to do anything meaningful with it.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

Scotland gave it their all but never looked in it in the second half and were well beaten. Even in the 1st half that they shaded, had JW kicked even half his penalties, Scotland wouldn't have gone in at half time ahead.

Good effort Scotland, but let's not patronise them by giving them a pat on the head and saying they should have won, they didn't win, they were completely outgunned in the second half by a misfiring England who were the only team who ever looked like scoring a try, which they did despite only playing to a fraction of their potential.

[TheGreyGhost]

Well beaten? mate, that's just arrogant. England made one try scoring chance, and took it.

Scotland had three. Granted they seem genetically incapable of crossing the line, but as usual Scotland engineered a winning margin and then lost all composure.

This was a game Scotland lost, not a game England won.

[George Carlin]

Good effort Scotland, but let's not patronise them by giving them a pat on the head and saying they should have won, they didn't win, they were completely outgunned in the second half by a misfiring England who were the only team who ever looked like scoring a try, which they did despite only playing to a fraction of their potential.

Good lord above - there aren't enough 'facepalm' icons in the world for that comment.

WC - if you honestly believe that England have much more to give against top flight opposition, then I suspect you didn't watch the game today. England didn't *choose* to be limited. They were limited. Why? They were against a good forward pack and did not generate space on a pissing wet evening.

Why do you presume England will play better in the next round? There's nothing whatsoever to suggest that they will - and before you even start, delivering a horsing to weakened Eastern European sides in a bone dry indoor stadium counts for marginally less than a cold bucket of badger excrement and Johnson knows it.

If you think that's magically going to change for England in the next round, then you need the pixies to bring you a nice big cup of Perspective.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

GG, you worry about your own media/fan hyped show boaters, very soon you'll be in a proper match - let's see how they cope.

BTW, I wish England had jumped on the AB bandwagon and nicked PI players before, they certainly make a difference don't they?

[englandglory4ever]

Scotland were well beaten in the end. Albeit the last 10 mins. England applied the pressure, Scotland gave away pens and England did in fact win it.

[PJHolybloke]

Well beaten? mate, that's just arrogant. England made one try scoring chance, and took it.

Scotland had three. Granted they seem genetically incapable of crossing the line, but as usual Scotland engineered a winning margin and then lost all composure.

This was a game Scotland lost, not a game England won.

+1

Saved me the bother TGG.

[George Carlin]

very soon you'll be in a proper match - let's see how they cope.

The irony is positively overwhelming.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

George Carlin, do you even watch rugby let alone play?

6 Nations, Autralia? Ring any bells? Scoring lots of tries with pulsating 15 man rugby??????

Oh dear!!!!!!!!!

[TheGreyGhost]

GG, you worry about your own media/fan hyped show boaters, very soon you'll be in a proper match - let's see how they cope.

BTW, I wish England had jumped on the AB bandwagon and nicked PI players before, they certainly make a difference don't they?

If you mean that they're better than English ones, then apparently. And French too as it seems. Why are you hijacking the thread?

I'm off for a few pints on this amazing day in London. Well done on your victories England, Tonga and Australia. Talk to you all again at 1a.m. no doubt.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

If you guys cant spot that 3 finals is a wum account after all these years on 606 you need a few beers and some sunshine

[PJHolybloke]

If you guys cant spot that 3 finals is a wum account after all these years on 606 you need a few beers and some sunshine

Excellent advice, have one yourself.

[George Carlin]

George Carlin, do you even watch rugby let alone play?

6 Nations, Autralia? Ring any bells? Scoring lots of tries with pulsating 15 man rugby??????

Oh dear!!!!!!!!!

I played to international level, thanks, which I suspect is a lot more than you did.

You seem to have ignored my point or lack the wherewithall to understand it.

Let's try again. I'll go slowly for you.

1. England were very limited today and at one stage stood a reasonable chance of losing the game.

2. You appear to think that this limited gameplay is a blip, after which 'normal service' will somehow be resumed and England will play substantially better.

3. I think that most reasonably impartial people are rather less than confident of this, given that England have struggled in previous pool matches to make inroads against two packs (Argentina and Scotland) which could not be said to be in the world's top 6 and whose backs have had difficulty in finding space. This is coupled with a lack of relatively lack of accuracy (for whatever reason) from Wilkinson's kicking for goal.

4. Higher quality opposition awaits in the later rounds. They don't really care that England had a fairly good 6 Nations. Many England fans who know more about the game than you are concerned that their relatively staid gameplay may not improve as the loss of form in comparison to that shown in the AIs is not easily explained.

Back to you for some more squeaky teenage hyperbole.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

George Carlin, do you even watch rugby let alone play?

6 Nations, Autralia? Ring any bells? Scoring lots of tries with pulsating 15 man rugby??????

Oh dear!!!!!!!!!

I played to international level, thanks, which I suspect is a lot more than you did.

You seem to have ignored my point or lack the wherewithall to understand it.

Let's try again. I'll go slowly for you.

1. England were very limited today and at one stage stood a reasonable chance of losing the game.

2. You appear to think that this limited gameplay is a blip, after which 'normal service' will somehow be resumed and England will play substantially better.

3. I think that most reasonably impartial people are rather less than confident of this, given that England have struggled in previous pool matches to make inroads against two packs (Argentina and Scotland) which could not be said to be in the world's top 6 and whose backs have had difficulty in finding space. This is coupled with a lack of relatively lack of accuracy (for whatever reason) from Wilkinson's kicking for goal.

4. Higher quality opposition awaits in the later rounds. They don't really care that England had a fairly good 6 Nations. Many England fans who know more about the game than you are concerned that their relatively staid gameplay may not improve as the loss of form in comparison to that shown in the AIs is not easily explained.

Back to you for some more squeaky teenage hyperbole.

ITS A WUM ACCOUNT

[Geordie]

What do people think of Lawes. Is he as good as people think...or is he hypedc up. Palmer was good when he came on.

As was Easter.

[George Carlin]

George Carlin, do you even watch rugby let alone play?

6 Nations, Autralia? Ring any bells? Scoring lots of tries with pulsating 15 man rugby??????

Oh dear!!!!!!!!!

I played to international level, thanks, which I suspect is a lot more than you did.

You seem to have ignored my point or lack the wherewithall to understand it.

Let's try again. I'll go slowly for you.

1. England were very limited today and at one stage stood a reasonable chance of losing the game.

2. You appear to think that this limited gameplay is a blip, after which 'normal service' will somehow be resumed and England will play substantially better.

3. I think that most reasonably impartial people are rather less than confident of this, given that England have struggled in previous pool matches to make inroads against two packs (Argentina and Scotland) which could not be said to be in the world's top 6 and whose backs have had difficulty in finding space. This is coupled with a lack of relatively lack of accuracy (for whatever reason) from Wilkinson's kicking for goal.

4. Higher quality opposition awaits in the later rounds. They don't really care that England had a fairly good 6 Nations. Many England fans who know more about the game than you are concerned that their relatively staid gameplay may not improve as the loss of form in comparison to that shown in the AIs is not easily explained.

Back to you for some more squeaky teenage hyperbole.

ITS A WUM ACCOUNT

[Ozzy3213]

Deacon and Palmer is our best 2nd row pairing at this time. Lawes would be best used as an impact sub.

[PJHolybloke]

Palmer needs to start to steady the lineout, I think Lawes may be an option as impact off the bench.

Easter is definitely a better 8 option at the scrum, but hasn't looked good as a ball-carrier recently, having said that, I think against France England will need to go back to basics and get the simple stuff right first.

Palmer in for Lawes.
Corbisero for Stevens.
Easter for Haskell.

The half-back pairing needs some attention too, but I don't think you could consider dropping JW on today's performance.

[Geordie]

Johnny played well...it was his kicking that was bad....but i just question the decision makers to allow Johnny to keep taking risky kicks after he had missed earlier ones. Surely someone gets hold as says no hit the corners...and we go for the try. If the easier kicks come up then you take them.

[PJHolybloke]

Totally agree Geordie, sometimes Jonny needs saving from himself. He was being asked to convert from the touchline and from too great a distance in the weather conditions.

He'd have had a better chance of 3 points from kicking to the corners and a DG attempt.

Some of England's decision making today was terrible, and I'm starting to wonder whether Moody should get dropped for the QF.

Bringing Easter in for Haskell at 8 would free Haskell up to play 7, it would seem harsh to dump Haskell completely as he offers so much in the loose, something that Easter has not done recently.

[Ozzy3213]

Johnny played well...it was his kicking that was bad....but i just question the decision makers to allow Johnny to keep taking risky kicks after he had missed earlier ones. Surely someone gets hold as says no hit the corners...and we go for the try. If the easier kicks come up then you take them.

+1

[Geordie]

Moody offers nothing on the pitch...and his supposed leadership was not in evidence today.

6 Croft
7 Haskell
8 Easter

But Wood must come into consideration aswell.

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