Ireland vs Italy - Discussion Thread - Teams Announced

[MMC]

Ireland:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
10 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
22 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

Italy:
15 Andrea Masi
14 Tommaso Benvenuti
13 Gonzalo Canale
12 Gonzalo Garcia
11 Mirco Bergamasco
10 Luciano Orquera
9 Fabio Semenzato
8 Sergio Parisse (captain)
7 Mauro Bergamasco
6 Alessandro Zanni
5 Cornelius van Zyl
4 Quintin Geldenhuys
3 Martin Castrogiovanni
2 Leonardo Ghiraldini
1 Salvatore Perugini.

Replacements:
16 Fabio Ongaro
17 Andrea Lo Cicero
18 Marco Bortolami
19 Paul Derbyshire
20 Edoardo Gori
21 Riccardo Bocchino
22 Luke McLean.

Afternoon all.

With just a few days to go now until a massive winner takes all game between Ireland and Italy, it's time to get our thoughts and opinions into one place.

There are many topics to discuss;

- Who'll start at 10?
- Who'll win the battle of the scrums?
- Who plays at 12 if D'Arcy isn't fit?

As a result of not getting the try bonus point against the USA (with Italy having managed to do so earlier today), we find ourselves in a situation whereby we either top the group or go home.

This is an absolutely massive game and the Italians will have been targeting for a long time now, much like Ireland targeted the Australia game.

So what are people's thoughts and feelings about the game?

- What tactics should we use?
- Where should we attack Italy?
- Where can Italy hurt Ireland?
- Who'll get the call in the highly contested positions of 9, 10 and 11?

I can't wait for this one.

Bring. It. On.

[asoreleftshoulder]

I'd start Reddan,O'Gara and Trimble.
Reddan has been solid and keeps his place,O'Gara's place kicking is one of the best at the tournament and Sexton is struggling so he starts and Earls has played in every game and also a lot of the warm ups so give him a deserved rest and Trimble a deserved start in an important match.

[BlueMuff]

Well Mallet has just played into Irelands hand claiming that the Italian front row is much stronger.

"We know perfectly well we have a better front row than Ireland"

Que Healy Best and Ross.

ROG to start at 10

[MMC]

Officials for the game:

Referee:Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand), Chris Pollock (New Zealand)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

BM,
I saw that quote from Mallet about their front row alright. I wonder is it similar to the 6 Nations this year where he was trying to influence the referee by proclaiming scrum dominance.

It worked on that particular occasion, with many of the 50-50 calls going Italy's way. One thing that must be said though, is Ross and Healy are far more experienced as an International combination now though and in the form of their lives. I think we can give Italy a very big surprise on Sunday.

[Cari]

As long as Tommy's there I don't care...

[Mickado]

Healy – Best – Ross
DOC – POC
Ferris – Heaslip – O’Brien
Reddan – ROG
Trimble – Darcy (if not fit Wallace) – O’Driscoll – Bowe
Kearney

Cronin – Court – Cullen – Ryan – Boss – Sexton – Earls

Try to run them ragged I say. Australia held them at 6-6 at half time and ran in 4 tries in the second half. I wouldn’t be panicking if we’re in the same position after 40 mins. Those comments about their front row are interesting, Cian Healy is exactly the type of player that would love to hear that.

[Mickado]

Officials for the game:

Referee:Jonathan Kaplan (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand), Chris Pollock (New Zealand)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

BM,
I saw that quote from Mallet about their front row alright. I wonder is it similar to the 6 Nations this year where he was trying to influence the referee by proclaiming scrum dominance.

It worked on that particular occasion, with many of the 50-50 calls going Italy's way. One thing that must be said though, is Ross and Healy are far more experienced as an International combination now though and in the form of their lives. I think we can give Italy a very big surprise on Sunday.

Roman Poite was the ref that day too. I don't rate him, particularly at scrum time.

[MMC]

I'd start Reddan,O'Gara and Trimble.
Reddan has been solid and keeps his place,O'Gara's place kicking is one of the best at the tournament and Sexton is struggling so he starts and Earls has played in every game and also a lot of the warm ups so give him a deserved rest and Trimble a deserved start in an important match.

You know, I can see Kidney surprising us all here and going with a Trimble - Earls - Bowe back 3 for this one. I think Trimble deserves a start, be it at the expense of Earls or Kearney (who's nursing a jarred knee).

The question is, how confident are the Irish coaching staff really in our scrum? If there is a niggling doubt then they may want Kearney to play at all costs due to his safety under the high ball.

In my opinion though, due to how much our scrum has improved and considering that Healy dealt admirably with Castrogiavanni in the HC Semi Final I think it's time to go for broke by selecting the in-form winger in Trimble, the most elusive strike-runner in Earls and the ever dangerous Bowe as our back three.

At half back I'd stick it out with Reddan and Sexton with Murray and ROG on the bench.

The pack will be the same pack as the one that started against Australia and IMO it's a pack that's well capable of besting the much-fancied Italian pack.

[rodders]

D'arcy has been declared fit I think but O'Connell and Bowe are still injury concerns. Not sure about Court which would be worrying as it's Healy's 3rd game on the trot and we're fecked if we have to bring Buckley on.

I'd imagine if there is a full deck to pick from the team will be the exact same one as against Australia.

[BlueMuff]

Does the Irish physcy change in a rugby WC. If this was a 6Ns match against Italy we would expect to win albeit a tough game. Are Italy now all of a sudden world beaters and we almost start to fear them.

Is this to our advantage not to under estimate them or Popey says "are you giving a sucker a break" to let them into the game.

[red_stag]

I'd like to see Ryan on the bench who gives us the option of a backrow lineout option. The team I'd like is:

Healy, Best, Ross

O'Callaghan, O'Connell

Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien

Reddan, Sexton

Darcy, O'Driscoll

Trimble, Earls, Bowe

Subs: Cronin, Court, Ryan, Jennings, Boss, O'Gara, Kearney

[red_stag]

I'd be quite confident of a win by around 10 points.

[Boyne]

I'd like to see Ryan on the bench who gives us the option of a backrow lineout option. The team I'd like is:

Healy, Best, Ross

O'Callaghan, O'Connell

Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien

Reddan, Sexton

Darcy, O'Driscoll

Trimble, Earls, Bowe

Subs: Cronin, Court, Ryan, Jennings, Boss, O'Gara, Kearney

I like that team- especially the bench. Jennings in for Leamy is a good call IMO.

[Boyne]

..also Boss for Murray is a good call.

[Cari]

D'arcy has been declared fit I think but O'Connell and Bowe are still injury concerns.

Tommy's been doing some light training and the physios are keeping an eye on him, but he should be OK.

[MMC]

Does the Irish physcy change in a rugby WC. If this was a 6Ns match against Italy we would expect to win albeit a tough game. Are Italy now all of a sudden world beaters and we almost start to fear them.

Is this to our advantage not to under estimate them or Popey says "are you giving a sucker a break" to let them into the game.

I don't see how being wary of them can be interpreted as letting them into the game though BM. I think Ireland will have a healthy amount of respect for Italy and that will help to focus the minds.

We do seem to need a "gee-up" so to speak in order to really perform at our best. The prospect of going home early, along with the closeness of the result in Rome last season should provide that.

I expect us to "hammer the hammer" and really target their scrum from the off. If that goes well I think that Sexton will look to run, run and run some more at the Italians. I'd expect that we'll see something quite similar to the controlled frenzied start against France in the 6 Nations earlier in the year, with the difference being that the performance is sustained for the majority of the game.

[clivemcl]

Afternoon all.

- Who plays at 12 if D'Arcy isn't fit?

I'm not sure at what point it changed from people saying D'arcy has done nothing for Ireland lately to earn a place, to the seemingly current attitude that he will definatly start if he's fit.

is there not still an argument for other options regardless of his fitness? Unless you can tell me that he was somehow vital in the win over Aus? I think everyone is starting to suffer from whatever kidney suffers from with the nerves building.

i'm not sure what teh alternative should be, but how long will we keep hoping that he will magically rediscover his form before we try something else?

[red_stag]

MMC - I think we will attack out wide and using offloads and running early on and that we will play an extremely different game in second half bombarding the Italians with high balls, attacking the fringes of the rucks with sustained pick and go and pressuring what I think is a weak Italian lineout. That bench I picked would be vital in doing so.

[emack2]

Am I correct in thinking,if Italy win,Australia win[bonus point]
Ireland go out,Australia top group,Italy go into SH QF on the head to head?

[Boyne]

Am I correct in thinking,if Italy win,Australia win[bonus point]
Ireland go out,Australia top group,Italy go into SH QF on the head to head?

Yip- pretty much the same situation England is in, no?

[red_stag]

Am I correct in thinking,if Italy win,Australia win[bonus point]
Ireland go out,Australia top group,Italy go into SH QF on the head to head?

Yes

[Boyne]

Or maybe England have an extra point? Its starting to get close to calculator time....

[Mickado]

Am I correct in thinking,if Italy win,Australia win[bonus point]
Ireland go out,Australia top group,Italy go into SH QF on the head to head?

Probably. Yeah, that sounds right. But if we get a losing bp we'll go second.

[MMC]

Afternoon all.

- Who plays at 12 if D'Arcy isn't fit?

Unless you can tell me that he was somehow vital in the win over Aus?

I thought he played quite well against Australia actually. Certainly his best game for us in his last few outings.

Let's look at the options so:
We have D'Arcy, Wallace, McFadden or Sexton.

Firstly, I'd eliminate McFadden there as I don't think he's an International quality centre yet.

With regard to Sexton, do we really want to risk having both our outhalfs on the pitch at the same time, especially against such a physical side as the Italians? I don't think so. Added to the fact that Sexton has nothing but a few minutes of International rugby at 12 in the first place.

So it becomes a shootout between Wallace and D'Arcy. Both are small players who would benefit more from having a big, physical centre partner (someone like Fourie) running off their shoulder than a 60% fit BOD.

They may be different types of player in certain ways but the end result is pretty much the same - no midfield penetration (without the likes of O'Brien and Ferris running on to pop passes). Our midfield has gone from being a huge strength to one of our weaker areas now, IMO.

[red_stag]

No we won't Mick. Italy and us would be drawn on 14 points. They would have better head to head record.

[rodders]

Am I correct in thinking,if Italy win,Australia win[bonus point]
Ireland go out,Australia top group,Italy go into SH QF on the head to head?

Probably. Yeah, that sounds right. But if we get a losing bp we'll go second.

Are you sure? If we lose and get a bonus point then we'll both be on 14 points? Surely Italy would go though and we need to win? Or does it come down to points difference?

[Boyne]

Italy would go through on head to head.

[Boyne]

Thats why they are saying its "cup rugby" from here on in...

[rodders]

Feck sake I wish we'd have got that bonus point against the USA. At least that would have forced Italy to go for the bonus point win.

I blame ROG for that grubber kick ....

[Mickado]

Ah right. Well, if we scored 4 tries and lost by less than 8 and Italy didn’t score 4 tries, THEN we’d be second.

It’s all academic. Let’s just win the fuppin thing!

[BlueMuff]

Is the team announced tomorrow night?

[MMC]

MMC - I think we will attack out wide and using offloads and running early on and that we will play an extremely different game in second half bombarding the Italians with high balls, attacking the fringes of the rucks with sustained pick and go and pressuring what I think is a weak Italian lineout. That bench I picked would be vital in doing so.

I'd agree with you there Stag. For all the talk of the Italian set piece, it's really just their scrum that's a potent weapon. Their lineout (and maul) aren't nearly as strong as their being made out to be by some.

I'd love to see us attack out wide for a change. And by that I don't mean shipping the ball across the line at every available opportunity. The back three that you selected, and which I agree on would help us enormously in that area.

The question then becomes, if we're going to attack the fringes and also their lineout - would we not be better off selecting ROG and Boss as the starting half backs? Personally I wouldn't think so given the qualities that Reddan and Sexton bring in attack but I feel it's a valid question nonetheless.

[Boyne]

Feck sake I wish we'd have got that bonus point against the USA. At least that would have forced Italy to go for the bonus point win.

I blame ROG for that grubber kick ....

+1

[red_stag]

Thats why they are saying its "cup rugby" from here on in...

Exactly, every match now is a knock out.

Here's a question would you start same team regardless of the opposition from here on. Potential opponents - Wales. England/France. NZ/Aus/SA.

Would facing any of those teams mean you start a particular player.

[MMC]

Is the team announced tomorrow night?

The team will be announced on Friday as far as I know.

[Boyne]

Feck sake I wish we'd have got that bonus point against the USA. At least that would have forced Italy to go for the bonus point win.

I blame ROG for that grubber kick ....

+1

<joke smiley, please dont flip>

[clivemcl]

Italy would go through on head to head.

I had never though of this before, but surely the head to head is an unfair decider. Points difference is a far more accurate representation of ability throughout the competition. I mean if France pulled of a shock win against NZ for example, they would go ahead despite NZ have scored considerably more tries than they were able to in against the same oppositions.

Shock results occassionally happen, but they shouldnt be a fair representation of whose done best in their pool.

[rodders]

Feck sake I wish we'd have got that bonus point against the USA. At least that would have forced Italy to go for the bonus point win.

I blame ROG for that grubber kick ....

+1

<joke smiley, please dont flip>

Yeah I'm just kidding too...it was Flannery's fault...

[red_stag]

MMC - I think we will attack out wide and using offloads and running early on and that we will play an extremely different game in second half bombarding the Italians with high balls, attacking the fringes of the rucks with sustained pick and go and pressuring what I think is a weak Italian lineout. That bench I picked would be vital in doing so.

I'd agree with you there Stag. For all the talk of the Italian set piece, it's really just their scrum that's a potent weapon. Their lineout (and maul) aren't nearly as strong as their being made out to be by some.

I'd love to see us attack out wide for a change. And by that I don't mean shipping the ball across the line at every available opportunity. The back three that you selected, and which I agree on would help us enormously in that area.

The question then becomes, if we're going to attack the fringes and also their lineout - would we not be better off selecting ROG and Boss as the starting half backs? Personally I wouldn't think so given the qualities that Reddan and Sexton bring in attack but I feel it's a valid question nonetheless.

I feel we do this best by bringing fresh players in to use their strenghts attacking a tired Italian team. Don't forget their lack of recovery time.

Kearney comes in to launch high balls on top of them. O'Gara kicks to the corner. Ryan gives us another lineout option. Lets target in the second half when they've finally got to grips with our first team plan.

[red_stag]

Italy would go through on head to head.

I had never though of this before, but surely the head to head is an unfair decider. Points difference is a far more accurate representation of ability throughout the competition. I mean if France pulled of a shock win against NZ for example, they would go ahead despite NZ have scored considerably more tries than they were able to in against the same oppositions.

Shock results occassionally happen, but they shouldnt be a fair representation of whose done best in their pool.

Its just another way of looking at it. You could argue why would a team have to be second when they have beaten the others. We've all known well in advance anyway so its about winning our matches.

[MMC]

Ah right. Well, if we scored 4 tries and lost by less than 8 and Italy didn’t score 4 tries, THEN we’d be second.

It’s all academic. Let’s just win the fuppin thing!

What happens if we lose to Italy by 7 or less and both of us score 4 tries, along with Australia getting their expected bonus point win over Russia?

We'd all be on 15 points then. Does it go to points difference?

[rodders]

Stag do you really think we have an edge in the lineout? It looked pretty solid this morning and they took ours apart in the 6N?

I'd say they'll have the edge in the set piece for sure.

[MMC]

Stag do you really think we have an edge in the lineout? It looked pretty solid this morning and they took ours apart in the 6N?

I'd say they'll have the edge in the set piece for sure.

Having Ferris and Heaslip there as extra lineout options, not to mention Ryan on the bench, along with an in-form Rory Best swings it back in our favour in my opinion. I'd question how fit POC was in that game too. Whereas now he's in the form of his life.

[red_stag]

No way. I'd also disagree that they tore our lineout apart.

Acutally (not to be like SinÉ) but I've googled this and we lost only 1 linout out of 9 that day.

However we found it very very hard to expose the Italian lineout that day for 1 reason - we had only 2 lineout receivers. Zanni at the tail of the lineout was a key area for them which they used to good effect. However I don't rate their lineout at all and IMO it can be targetted along with their inability to deal with an offloading game.

[WelshinEdinburgh]

Thats why they are saying its "cup rugby" from here on in...

Exactly, every match now is a knock out.

Here's a question would you start same team regardless of the opposition from here on. Potential opponents - Wales. England/France. NZ/Aus/SA.

Would facing any of those teams mean you start a particular player.

In knockout rugby you play your best team each game, build momentum if you can, it also depends on how important the player is and the quality of the back up - an 80% fit BOD or POC should start whereas an 80% fit Sexton should be replaced by O'Gara if that makes sense - I think team selection gets easier from now on - pick your best team

[MMC]

I think team selection gets easier from now on - pick your best team

The only problem with that is how much attention do you play to form? And who do you choose when two players are playing similarly well / badly?

For Ireland, the pack picks itself. We all know who our best 8 are.

In the backs it's more complicated. Arguments could be made for a number of players in the 9, 10, 11, 12 and 15 jerseys. For me it comes down to horses for courses.

For example, I'd be inclined to go with Trimble (for his physicality, and form) at 11 with Earls at 15 for Italy. But if we were playing someone like South Africa I'd go with Trimble/Earls at 11 with Kearney at 15.

[rodders]

No way. I'd also disagree that they tore our lineout apart.

Acutally (not to be like SinÉ) but I've googled this and we lost only 1 linout out of 9 that day.

I've checked the stats too and I'm really surprised. I remember us really struggling and having to go to the front of the lineout to win our own ball because Parisse was dominating the back of the lineout.

I agree that Ferris and Heaslip will make a difference but I still think they will have the edge in that area.

[MMC]

I can't see them getting the edge in too many areas if Ireland play to the standard that they've set for themselves.

Our scrum with Healy and Ross is far from weak. Our lineout with a fit POC and jumpers in the backrow should at least achieve parity. We have numerous strike runners in the back 3, no matter who we select there. We proven halfbacks, and another pair of them to bring off the bench (regardless of who starts) if needs be.

We have a hugely dynamic backrow with 3 big ball carriers in there.

Italy don't have strike-runners, they don't have a proven kicker, they have one set of half backs and they aren't very strong at 9.

If we keep them in their own half I struggle to see how they can hurt us enough to win.

EDIT: The wildcard for Italy is of course Parrise, who needs to be nullified by Ferris and co.

[Mickado]

Italy were getting away with murder in the scrum that day too. Remember Perugini slipping the bind, standing up and winning a penalty!?!

I have every faith our scrum will have more than enough to deal with these lads. Healy has always dealt well with Castro, Ross is I'm great form and Best is very strong in the scrum. Worry not lads. Worry not.

[red_stag]

Th reason we went to the front was because we literally only had DOC and POC. Our backrow was Leamy, O'Brien, Wallace none of whom offer any lineout threat. A floated ball to back of lineout is too easy to read when they can mark our guys 3-2.

I'd play into the corners and attack the lineout later in the game. Initially I like the thought of testing their 10-12 channel and seeing how well they deal with a few big runners who can offload (Mr Ferris I'm looking at you!!)

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