Ireland vs Italy - Discussion Thread - Teams Announced

[MMC]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
10 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
22 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)

Italy:
15 Andrea Masi
14 Tommaso Benvenuti
13 Gonzalo Canale
12 Gonzalo Garcia
11 Mirco Bergamasco
10 Luciano Orquera
9 Fabio Semenzato
8 Sergio Parisse (captain)
7 Mauro Bergamasco
6 Alessandro Zanni
5 Cornelius van Zyl
4 Quintin Geldenhuys
3 Martin Castrogiovanni
2 Leonardo Ghiraldini
1 Salvatore Perugini.

Replacements:
16 Fabio Ongaro
17 Andrea Lo Cicero
18 Marco Bortolami
19 Paul Derbyshire
20 Edoardo Gori
21 Riccardo Bocchino
22 Luke McLean.

Afternoon all.

With just a few days to go now until a massive winner takes all game between Ireland and Italy, it's time to get our thoughts and opinions into one place.

There are many topics to discuss;

- Who'll start at 10?
- Who'll win the battle of the scrums?
- Who plays at 12 if D'Arcy isn't fit?

As a result of not getting the try bonus point against the USA (with Italy having managed to do so earlier today), we find ourselves in a situation whereby we either top the group or go home.

This is an absolutely massive game and the Italians will have been targeting for a long time now, much like Ireland targeted the Australia game.

So what are people's thoughts and feelings about the game?

- What tactics should we use?
- Where should we attack Italy?
- Where can Italy hurt Ireland?
- Who'll get the call in the highly contested positions of 9, 10 and 11?

I can't wait for this one.

Bring. It. On.

[Standulstermen]

Come the big games SA will have du prez and Steyn, NZ will have Cowan/Weepu and Carter and England will have Youngs and Wilkinson. Wales will have Phillips and priestland (or Jones if fit).

We could have any combination of Murray/Reddan and ROG/Sexton.

Starting Boss instead of Murray against Russia was a poor call too in my book. It's not a summer tour were you are trying to keep everyone happy.

It's no conincidence that the pack is settled and performing consistantly whereas the persistant rotation at 9 and 10 is botching up our execution in the backline.

Rodders 2 of your 4 examples dont have a settled half back pairing yet!

[Boyne]

Question- why is nobody mentioning that a draw would put Ireland through as group winners as well?

So in effect we need to win or draw the game.

Can anyone confirm?

[rodders]

I'm not being negative stag. I'm just frustrated because when the team is going poorly Kidney sticks with the same players but when we hit on a winning combination Kidney tinkers with things.

8, 9, 10, 12 is the most important unit on the pitch if you want to play attacking rugby and this shouldn't change from game to game unless there is good reason.

Lets say Sexton was dropped because of his goal kicking. Fair enough. Why has Reddan been dropped then?

[MMC]

Above all else I don't get the number of people who insist on being negative about our national team - no matter what team is picked.

I suppose it gives people something to talk about.

The fact is, I don't care whether it's Reddan or Murray, ROG or Sexton, Earls or Trimble. I'll cheer them on no matter what. We all have our favourite players and of course we want to see our favourite guys start. Is that really provincial bias?

For example, if Sexton starts and kicks 8 out of 8 kicks then I'll be over the moon. Or if Trimble gets a hattrick while Earls warms the bench, fantastic. All of the points those players score go towards Ireland's total, not Munster's, Leinster's, Ulster's or Connacht's.

Without differences of opinion this forum would be very boring. I enjoy hearing other people's view even if I don't agree with them.

[MMC]

Question- why is nobody mentioning that a draw would put Ireland through as group winners as well?

So in effect we need to win or draw the game.

Can anyone confirm?

That's correct Boyne. Basically we need to avoid defeat.

[red_stag]

Rodders another way of looking at it is that the team was doing poorly when Kidney was reliant on a small pool of players. Now that he has managed to create a competitive squad we are doing better.

[rodders]

The Trimble issue is neither here nor there for me. He and Earls are both playing well. I don't think whoever plays at 11 will be the deciding factor as to how far we go in this competition but whoeever plays 9 and 10 will certainly be a big factor.

I have no problem with Murray and or ROG but why didn't Kidney start them against Australia? Because he felt Reddan and Sexton were better? If so what has changed?

[BlueMuff]

It could be Stand but no one is going to convince me that is isn't a huge gamble and it flies in the face of what the better performing sides are doing.

Heaslip, Reddan,Sexton; is a tried and tested combination, whereas Heaslip, Murray, ROG isn't. It's not just about the individuals but the combination.

Your saying that picking Ronan O'Gara (one of the most experienced players in the WC and is currently is on fire) and Muarray against is a huge gamble.

You need to row back a bit

[MMC]

I'm not being negative stag. I'm just frustrated because when the team is going poorly Kidney sticks with the same players but when we hit on a winning combination Kidney tinkers with things.

8, 9, 10, 12 is the most important unit on the pitch if you want to play attacking rugby and this shouldn't change from game to game unless there is good reason.

Lets say Sexton was dropped because of his goal kicking. Fair enough. Why has Reddan been dropped then?

Well 8 is always going to be Heaslip if he's fit. Likewise at 12 with D'Arcy.

At 10, there's no question that Sexton would be nailed on to start if he was landing the majority of his kicks at goal. It's not Kidney's fault that he isn't. There comes a point where it would be negligent of Kidney to not consider a change here.

The final piece of the puzzle is at 9 where there has been no standout performer. They've each had one start each and Reddan and Murray have both had appearances off the bench. For me there's been very little between Reddan and Murray, they've both been OK but nothing more. So it becomes a question of combinations.

If ROG starts he's more likely to go with Murray and if Sexton starts, Reddan is the most likely candidate.

Once again, the point is that we wouldn't be having this discussion if Sexton was kicking well from the tee, because I think he's playing well outside of that. I don't think we can blame Kidney for considering all his options.

I've already said this before but I'll say it again.

My choice of 8, 9, 10, 12 for Italy would be Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, D'Arcy. Murray and ROG on the bench.

[red_stag]

The way I see it.

8 - Heaslip

9 - all poor options

10 - two different but equally good options

12 - all poor options

You can only play the cards you are dealt and I think Kidney would be getting crucified if he continued with Reddan - Sexton - Darcy in every match. I also don't think we'd play better if we did.

[rodders]

Anyways other than that it's a good side. No complaints if that is the side. Beating Italy is what matters not who is on the pitch when we do it.

ROG and Murray are excellent players, I just would prefer us to keep the key combinations together were possible and not chop around selection and tactics game to game.

Reddan and Sexton are on the bench if needed.

[rodders]

The way I see it.

8 - Heaslip

9 - all poor options

10 - two different but equally good options

12 - all poor options

Again stag you are just looking at it from an individual perspective not as a funtioning unit.

Heaslip, Murray, ROG, Wallace and Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, D'arcy are much a muchness in terms of individual form and ability but for me the latter is more likely to function cohesively in attack and defence and is more balanced than the former.

[MMC]

One other possibility (that's probably too late to consider now in reality) is for Murray and Sexton to start together and for Murray to take over kicking duties if Sexton misses a number of kicks.

Sexton really frustrates me to be honest. He can look so good at times. Against Munster in the HC Semi of 2009 he nailed all his kicks against us. He's had some great days with the boot in green.

In my opinion he's playing some good stuff at the moment but it's all being completely overshadowed by his placekicking, given that it's so obvious. When he misses it's all anyone talks about.

I could obviously be completely wrong but I think that if he's given the start against Italy on Sunday he can really turn it around a stamp his authority on the starting 10 jersey.

For me, Ireland work so much better with Sexton at 10 and ROG at 21, given how well they work together as a tag team. To borrow a notion from baseball - ROG is a closer. His role is every bit as vital as Sexton's.

[red_stag]

Well yes mainly as there is a paper towel that puts up more in defence than ROG-Wallace

Do you really think that we are going to implode if Heaslip, Murray, ROG, Darcy are picked. Heaslip, ROG and Darcy have dozens of test caps together. ROG and Murray are provincial team mates. The ONLY issue is Heaslip and Murray which I see as the least important link the chain.

[thebandwagonsociety]

Since ROG has returned to form, Ireland are one of the very few teams with 2 geniune 10's in this competition. From what I have seen for the last 15-18 months, the starting 10 usually does OK and the replacement comes on eager and gets the plaudits. Italy are unlikely to spread the ball past first receiver too often in a threatening manner. That means pick and goes around the fringes and running hard at the 10 and inside centre channels. They will fear going near BOD (but with his hurt shoulder that would be area they should focus on). Because of this I'd see Murray and Sexton as the better pairing to start the game as defensively they are stronger and Reddan/ROG can up the tempo in the final 30 minutes of the game (we shouldn't be too shy about doing this move 10-15 mins into the second half).

At this moment in the competition, scrumhalf and outhalf are positions of strength for Ireland. Second row we are doing well and have some good cover in Cullen. Backrow is doing ok. Back 3 seems decent to strong. The front row and centres are the worry areas. Darcy and BOD are both, to be honest, playing hurt and if it wasn't for a RWC they would be playing. There is no strong cover behind Ross or Best and Court can cover Healy but not to the level of intensity in the loose.

Is there a thread for 'kicking at the RWC' anywhere? Too many big names seem to be well off the mark so far.

[rodders]

One other possibility (that's probably too late to consider now in reality) is for Murray and Sexton to start together and for Murray to take over kicking duties if Sexton misses a number of kicks.

I actually was reading that Murray was a goal kicker and thought the same thing.

Stag a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link and 8 -9 is a really important unit in terms of setting up attacking moves off 1st phase and getting quick ball to the backs. Reddan and Boss always link well with Heaslip and SOB so lets hope Murray can too.

I actally think ROG and Wallace are good defenders though

[red_stag]

If Heaslip would start picking from the base of scrums again we might have a 8-9 link.

[rodders]

True stag Heaslip has been very quiet on that front. According to that stats he did a lot of carrying against Russia but I have to to say he was a bit quiet for me and overshadowed by O'Brien again.

Heaslip is such a catalyst for Ireland attacking play and we need him to up his game.

[eirebilly]

For me its a really tough one. I am inclined to give Sexton the start but give him until 1/2 time to see how he performs. I am torn though as i think that ROG should start and bring on Sexton later in the game when it opens up a bit.

Great problem to have though and i am pretty confident, the 6N match was a fiasco for Ireland and in Italy but here i feel that Ireland are by far the better team and really should beat Italy.

[rodders]

Just seen in the Belfast Telegraph that Mallet seems to have got under Irelands skin a bit with claims about Italy having a better front row.

I hope Ireland don't get sucked in by this and get drawn into a forward scrap. It's important that our tight 5 front up but we need to stick to the plan and not try and beat Italy at their own game.

[MMC]

Just seen in the Belfast Telegraph that Mallet seems to have got under Irelands skin a bit with claims about Italy having a better front row.

I hope Ireland don't get sucked in by this and get drawn into a forward scrap. It's important that our tight 5 front up but we need to stick to the plan and not try and beat Italy at their own game.

I don't think Kidney and Co. would fall for that to be honest. They've probably had a plan for this game for quite a while now. Anything that's being said in the press isn't going to change that.

It could work out in our favour a bit though by focussing the minds of Healy, Best and Ross even further. The gameplan won't change but it may be executed with even greater vigour.

[MMC]

Very interesting piece from the Irish Examiner here. I found the bit about the Italian's defensive set up (at the end) particularly interesting.

Cool Smal shrugs off Mallett’s blows

By Simon Lewis, Dunedin
Wednesday, September 28, 2011
GERT SMAL and Nick Mallett’s careers have been intertwined for more than 30 years and Ireland’s forwards coach knows enough about the Italy boss to suggest his fellow South African will "do anything" to get his way on the rugby pitch.
Take yesterday’s post-match gambit after Italy had seen off the USA, when Mallett pointedly declared: "I know we have a better front row than Ireland’s."

Or like inventing a story about French referee Romain Poite writing an apology to the Italian federation for the way he officiated the scrum in the 2010 Six Nations meeting between his side and Ireland, on the eve of the 2011 encounter last February in Rome. Poite was set to referee the fixture again and Mallett saw fit to increase the pressure on the match referee ahead of another collision between the two front rows.

Some would say it worked as the Irish scrum were penalised five times that afternoon at the Stadio Flaminio and Ireland escaped with a 13-11 win.

"That’s typical Nick," Smal said yesterday when reminded of the incident, for which Mallett subsequently issued an apology.

"He’ll do anything. He’s quite outspoken. You’ll see him with his views when you speak to him. He speaks his mind. He will put pressure on where he can."

That said, Smal believes his one-time Western Province back row partner is a "good guy".

"He’s a very good coach. He’s very demanding. He knows what he wants, hard-headed."

The same can be said of Italy’s pack which Smal believes will present a far greater challenge to his Irish forwards this Sunday in Dunedin than that posed by Tri-Nations champions Australia at Eden Park two weeks earlier.

"They gave the All Blacks a tough time (in 2008) and they’re three years further on. They’ve developed as a pack and they’ve a fair amount of weight behind them. That’s definitely one of the challenges lying ahead for us. I would say 70% of their game, they play a very simply structured game. They drive from lineouts because obviously they’ve got the size. And they’ve got the scrum. So they will try to put the pressure on and play in your half, either through penalties or maybe setting a maul up and then box-kick and try to put your wingers under pressure.

"They say they won’t go wide or they won’t go through the middle… they want to get in your half, then it’s big scrums and try to buy penalties that way, or come with drives and hope you go offside and then..." Smal said with a snap of his fingers, "pick it off, three-six-nine.

"If they can win that way, it’s a very low-risk game but very effective. It works for them. That’s obviously lineouts and scrums."

Smal also points to a significant change of personnel only a coach would tend to notice.

"What they also did, they got one of the junior breakdown/defence coaches of the Stormers (Omar Mouneimne). It was in the beginning of this season, to help them out with defence and at the breakdown. So they’re much more effective there as well.

"They defend very much like the Stormers and the defence coach of the Stormers has also been appointed defence coach of the Springboks, so South Africa, Italy and the Stormers are defending very much he same way."

Smal declined to elaborate as he didn’t "want to give too much away" but it is clear, he and defence coach Les Kiss are preparing for anything their Italian counterparts — and Nick Mallett — might throw at Ireland this weekend.

[Standulstermen]

I would get fired up by it to be honest. Ireland need to put italy in their place if you ask me.

yes they beat france but they still took the wooden spoon. Im not suggesting we get sucked into a scrummaging war but in every other facet of forward play we are superior to Italy. Scrum could be much of a muchless. The first time Castro trys his antics of patting people in the head, make sure Ferris or SOB crunch him when he next gets it.

Our clearing out was superb against australia and this is becoming the most important part of our attacking strategy. Get that right and we can pose the italian defence some problems. A couple of early scores and i think Italy might lose the rag

[rodders]

A couple of early scores and i think Italy might lose the rag

Scoring early is key. We most open up a two score lead and force Italy to chase the game. That will force them to start taking chances and take them out of their comfort zone. If they can keep is tight and slow the play down then it's anybodies game.

O'Gara must not be too eager to spread the ball wide though. That has got us and munster into trouble a few times this year. We need to attack that 10 channel and midfield and recycle quick ball and get that Italian pack moving around. They are bound to tire late on after playing the USA on tuesday.

[Sin é]

Kicking stats (compliments of Random_Punter on Munsterfans).

1.Morne Steyn (South Africa) 17 from 20: 85%
2.Ronan O'Gara (Ireland) 10 from 12: 83%
3.Dimitri Yachvili (France) 7 from 9: 78%
4.Toby Flood (England) 9 from 12: 75%
5.Dan Carter (New Zealand) 8 from 12: 67%
6.Colin Slade (New Zealand) 10 from 15: 67%
7.James Hook (Wales) 6 from 9: 67%
8.James O'Connor (Australia) 5 from 8: 63%
9.Felipe Contepomi (Argentina) 4 from 8: 50%
10.Quade Cooper (Australia) 4 from 8: 50%
11.Jonny Wilkinson (England) 7 from 14: 50%
12.Martin Rodriguez (Argentina) 8 from 17: 47%
13.Jonathan Sexton (Ireland) 5 from 13: 38%

[MMC]

I was just going to post that too Sin.

And these stats, also from that same thread (courtesy of 99_oK?):

Morgan Parra (Fra) 9 from 10 (90%) against Canada.
Mirco Bergamasco (It) 5 from 8 (63%) from 2 games
Riccardo Bocchino (It) 4 from 6 (67%) against Russia

[MMC]

What do you make of the debate for 9 and 10, Sin?

[Sin é]

I was just going to post that too Sin.

And these stats, also from that same thread:

Morgan Parra (Fra) 9 from 10 (90%) against Canada.
Mirco Bergamasco (It) 5 from 8 (63%) from 2 games
Riccardo Bocchino (It) 4 from 6 (67%) against Russia

So Italy have approx. 60+ kicker(s).

No brainer then as Italy do win a fair few penalties.

[Sin é]

What do you make of the debate for 9 and 10, Sin?

I think Sexton's confidence is gone and needs to be given a bit of space to get it back. I'm easy on whether its Reddan or Murray.

[MMC]

What do you make of the debate for 9 and 10, Sin?

I think Sexton's confidence is gone and needs to be given a bit of space to get it back. I'm easy on whether its Reddan or Murray.

You wonder how much good one good game would do him though. If he starts against Italy and nails his first few kicks we could see the old cocky Sexton back very quickly. Drop him and he probably goes into his shell and we effectively have just 1 outhalf left for the rest of the tournament.

For me it's a tricky one because while I don't feel like any coach should make a selection based around keeping a player happy, I feel like dropping Sexton for this one could come back to haunt us later on in the tournament.

Having said that, ROG has certainly put his hand up and you wonder how long more that can be ignored for.

Like I was saying earlier too, I feel that O'Gara offers far more impact off the bench than Sexton does.

[rodders]

No brainer then as Italy do win a fair few penalties.

They don't concede many though and have conceded the 2nd least penalties in the tournament behind SA.

I don't think there is any doubt about ROG's place kicking being better than Sextons right now but how significant is goal kicking likely to be given Italy don't give away many penalties?

[MMC]

This sounds worrying about POC: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/24183.php

From the sounds of things he's not likely to feature against Italy (at least that's what I read from it).

[Guest]

are ireland fans seriously worried about the game against italy?

[Boyne]

are ireland fans seriously worried about the game against italy?

Yes.

[Guest]

why?

[Feckless Rogue]

Because if we lose we're out. Why else?

[Mickado]

Personally. No.

Massively optimistic would be more like it. Italy are starting a bit of media chatter before playing us (not for the first time), it may have had a positive effect for them last time (although we still won) we won’t be caught short this time. I predict an easy win. 15+ points.

[rodders]

are ireland fans seriously worried about the game against italy?

Yes very. Italy are looking very confident and I think we've forgotten what we did right against Australia and have taken our eye of the ball.

[Boyne]

This sounds worrying about POC: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/24183.php

From the sounds of things he's not likely to feature against Italy (at least that's what I read from it).

Jaysus I dont see that MMC....... no mention of him not being available there!

He has always been my favorite player- would be CAT if hes missing this weekend.

[red_stag]

I'm not that worried. I expect victory by about 10-15 points.

[D24tress]

No brainer then as Italy do win a fair few penalties.

I don't think there is any doubt about ROG's place kicking being better than Sextons right now but how significant is goal kicking likely to be given Italy don't give away many penalties?

It will be more significant cause if we only get 3 kickable penalties we will want to hit them all.

I have been saying since the warm ups that ROG has been playing better and he should defo get the start against the italians( who i am starting to dislike alot, anyone who has seen castro's twitter would agree)

parisse is there main threat and is prob one of the best backrows in the game however he is about to come up against the 3 backrows of the apocalypse and i think that is where we should win the game, and all games in the future will be won by these three with help from others

[Boyne]

I'm not that worried. I expect victory by about 10-15 points.

We will probably win. Us having more down time than them will mean it will be tougher for them.

But lads, after just about beating them last time, you would be a fool not to be worried.

Maybe I am just of a nervous disposition. Ive never been more nervous about an Irish game (apart from the GS)

[Guest]

i think ireland will be fine to be honest.

[Boyne]

D24- what did he tweet? Ive never like him.

[MMC]

No brainer then as Italy do win a fair few penalties.

They don't concede many though and have conceded the 2nd least penalties in the tournament behind SA.

I don't think there is any doubt about ROG's place kicking being better than Sextons right now but how significant is goal kicking likely to be given Italy don't give away many penalties?

As with any set of stats though rodders, the penalties conceeded stats didn't specify which part of the pitch those penalties were condeeded on.

A team might only condeed 7 penalties in an entire game but what if 6 of them were kickable? That's 18 points.

I'd wager that Italy will give away more penalties against us on Sunday than they have in any of their 3 previous games.

Against Australia: 9
Against Russia: 7
Against USA: 8

Against Russia and USA they had total dominance and so were never really pressured into conceeding penalties.

They played the game (well, half) of their lives against Australia who eventually broke them down and just ran around them after they tired.

Ireland will look to put enormous amounts of pressure on them in the tackle and breakdown area particularly and if done correctly that will result in penalties.

[D24tress]

D24- what did he tweet? Ive never like him.

couple of the english lads were complementary of ireland after beating teh ozzies and he had a right go at them, loads of effin and jeffin out of him, he thought they were out after that and started
slagging off tom croft and ben youngs loads and then started having a go at johne murphy, it might have all been in jest but it didnt seem it

[Mickado]

No brainer then as Italy do win a fair few penalties.

I don't think there is any doubt about ROG's place kicking being better than Sextons right now but how significant is goal kicking likely to be given Italy don't give away many penalties?

It will be more significant cause if we only get 3 kickable penalties we will want to hit them all.

I have been saying since the warm ups that ROG has been playing better and he should defo get the start against the italians( who i am starting to dislike alot, anyone who has seen castro's twitter would agree)

parisse is there main threat and is prob one of the best backrows in the game however he is about to come up against the 3 backrows of the apocalypse and i think that is where we should win the game, and all games in the future will be won by these three with help from others

I like this. Lets see a t-shirt.

[Mickado]

What's Castro's twitter name?

[Sin é]

What do you make of the debate for 9 and 10, Sin?

I think Sexton's confidence is gone and needs to be given a bit of space to get it back. I'm easy on whether its Reddan or Murray.

You wonder how much good one good game would do him though. If he starts against Italy and nails his first few kicks we could see the old cocky Sexton back very quickly. Drop him and he probably goes into his shell and we effectively have just 1 outhalf left for the rest of the tournament.

For me it's a tricky one because while I don't feel like any coach should make a selection based around keeping a player happy, I feel like dropping Sexton for this one could come back to haunt us later on in the tournament.

Having said that, ROG has certainly put his hand up and you wonder how long more that can be ignored for.

Like I was saying earlier too, I feel that O'Gara offers far more impact off the bench than Sexton does.

Sexton was given an opportunity against Russia and he really fluffed one under the posts in a game we had won well at this stage. Put him in a game that something was at stake isn't going to sort his head out.

The way I think of it is that if he is dropped now for this game, the worst has happened to him and the only way is up (by regaining his starting position). This could be the making of him yet as a player.

You could also say that ROG could get the score board ticking over early which will knock the fight out of the Italians.

[D24tress]

What's Castro's twitter name?

castrito81

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