Mark Reason does not support England

ENGLAND DO NOT DESERVE YOUR SUPPORT

What does team mean? Half a century and a world ago, the men who played for the local soccer team were a part of the community. You had a beer with them down the local pub. You might even have a job working alongside a few of them. Some sold insurance, some worked down the pits. But you knew them.
More recently rugby supporters would still have a beer with the players on a Saturday night after the game. It made them feel closer to the team and the players less remote. But then professionalism came along and the players were hauled off to schmooze the sponsors.
Less and less is the team part of the community. More and more is it an adjunct of business. I am not sure that this is what sport should be about. I am not sure why supporting a football team full of ridiculously paid foreign mercenaries should still fulfil a primitive tribal urge.
But at least playing for your country still seemed to mean something. The All Blacks are an important part of New Zealand and the Springboks have been a huge force in South African culture. But it is hard to say the same about England. They have become opportunist to a shameful degree.
Manu Tuilagi is a Samoan who came to England on a holiday visa and stayed illegally. Thomas Waldrom is a New Zealander who realised he would not play for his country while Keiran Read was No 8 and so became an economic migrant. He thought he would have to wait three years to fulfil the ludicrous residency rule, but then he discovered a grandmother.
Martin Johnson has said he will pick anyone so long as they are good. Once upon a time the RFU would never have allowed such a nonsense, but now they would sell their own grandmothers into slavery if it meant Daniel Carter could play for England and put a few more million on the bottom line.
I have no doubt that modern sport has saved many a man from a grim working life. But it has also become tarnished over the years.
And I hope Scotland win by eight points this weekend. This is an unlovely England side of mixed nationality that does not deserve your support.
From Mark Reason in Dunedin

Now I know this has been done to death but I just wondered about peoples opinions. I can see what he's on about and I think that this is one of the worst aspects of professionalism. Just thought I'd share it for anyone who doesn't get these...

Surprise, surprise. A Scotsman belly aching about England just before an Eng v Sco match. This topic is so passée. I can't believe any right minded person would have the nerve to raise it yet again.

Slightly hypocritical to mention how important the All Blacks are to NZ culture and then harp on about 'foreign mercenaries'.

Thomas Waldrom, Riki Flutey and Hape are examples of England players that I dont agree should be representing England, however Tuilagi and Hartley have spent the majority of their lives here so I dont see a problem.

Its the same situation for Wales with Faleatau, I'd be happier with Faleatau playing for Wales than Ben Morgan for example.

It's been covered SO MANY TIMES. This is not a slight on you McKay, I just find it astounding that the same argument keeps going over and over.

Someone will point out that actually only Hape and Waldrom have no genuine tie to the nation and say MJ should always pick the best available because otherwise he is being racist.

Someone else will antagonise the kiwis by saying they pillage the PIs

The kiwis will respond by saying actually the PIs pillage us.

Everyone will forget Australia and the fact they have had many a player form foreign shores.

Soon the English will invoke granny gate and point out that Budge Poutney was born in Southampton and qualified for Scotland by having a gran from the channel Isles so he could choose any home nation.

Then the Welsh will talk about how they have to due to being a small nation, then the NZers will say "well we don't".

Someone will then bring up that English guy who played full back for NZ ages ago and say they're as bad as the rest.

Then Everyone will pile on England because they have the most high profile cases and lots of people love to English bash.

It will end with a couple of posters getting week long bans or some such like and no one having changed their opinion.



To answer the question though - We travel far more these days. Back in the 70s for instance nationality was far easier to define because people didn't tend to move so much. If someone is born in say Jamaica but brought up by Indian parents with a focus on Indian culture is he Indian or Jamaican. When he then moves to England and has a kid and brings the kid up with Indian Culture is the kid Indian, Jamaican or English? It's all so mixed up it's impossible to make everyone happy. If the England team was made up of 15 white guys born in the home counties whose grand parents also lived there then would be out cry too.

abdabs..... that was a bloody rubbish post that!!!

disgraceful!!


I'm going to have to put the popcorn away now

Great post screaming. Won't change the next 172 posts though...

Manu Tuilagi is a Samoan who came to England on a holiday visa and stayed illegally

In order to stay with his family? Secured a working visa last summer and is anything but a mercenary. I've met him and he is a nice bloke who is just happy to be playing the sport he loves and getting paid for it. Waldrom, Hape and Flutey are a bit different. At least Waldrom has some English in him somewhere the other two were just desperate to play international rugby.

Less and less is the team part of the community

Considering the amount of England internationals that work hard for charities and promoting youth rugby I'm afraid that comment is a load of rubbish.

the men who played for the local soccer team were a part of the community. You had a beer with them down the local pub

This is still the case for most rugby clubs. I've met a couple of Tigers and the have been polite and friendly to even the most drunken supporters and the club make sure they go out of their way to be part of the community. It's the same for most professional clubs as well. This bloke is an ignorant and bitter man with a chip on his shoulder.

IronMike wrote: however Tuilagi and Hartley have spent the majority of their lives here so I dont see a problem

Tuilagi has spent 7 of his 19 yrs in England
Hartley has spent 11 of his 25 yrs in England

Bit nitpicky but they've not really spent the majority of their lives here have they?

However, if I were an englishman I wouldn't have a problem with Tuilagi playing for England. It's no different to Devon Malcolm opening the bowling for England is it?

In fact, I'd probably embrace having Tuilagi as the best centre threat you've had since Greenwood. Although that isn't an achievement considering the cack that has played there since Greenwood!

Jaaaaaaaaamie Nooooooooon!!!!

The three-year residency rule is something of a disgrace in my eyes. Those wishing to exploit it will find that they are technically able to play for a country without even being a citizen of that country. At the very least residential qualification should be extended to a five-year period, the same amount of time it would take to fully become a citizen through registration for those without parentage.

Having said that the grandmother ruling is too obscure a link and is open to manipulation. At least one of the immediate parents ought to be a qualified citizen imo.

Is Mark Reason Scottish? I was trying to find out where he was from before posting. I assumed he was English actually, which was why I posted it. Otherwise I would have known he was a WUM

I want to know how the heck so many foreign Welshmen get in the England cricket team. (err, on second thoughts, no I don't).

Carpe Diem wrote:Jaaaaaaaaamie Nooooooooon!!!!

I rest my case, your honour

Greenwood was world class.

nuff said.

Do you support Nathan Hines and are hoping Max Evans will be scoring tries for fun on saturday? If so you can pack up your argument and take it back to scotland with you on sunday.

Having said that I do agree with you on Waldrom, I dont think you will find many England fans hoping he gets to play for us.
Manu on the other hand is a good young lad who has grown up here and learnt most of his rugby here (may have had a few lessons of his brothers aswell lol.) I remember reading an interview with him where he was saying he didn't really play much rugby back in samoa, he mainly played football and it wasn't until he came to the uk that he really started to take rugby more seriously.

Who was the worst England centre between Greenwood and Tuilagi then do you reckon?

Erinlie must be in with a shout?

"More recently rugby supporters would still have a beer with the players on a Saturday night after the game. It made them feel closer to the team and the players less remote. But then professionalism came along and the players were hauled off to schmooze the sponsors."

Not entirely the fault of professionalism but also of a celebrity obsessed general public that will do anything to break a story for Heat magazine. Exhibit 1 - Tindallgate

worst centre for england since the good old days of Greenwood? surely Hape is in with a shout?

Tuilagi & Hartley
Perhaps it would be better to ban any person entering this country from bringing their children with them, or at least banning them from attending school or taking part in any sport whilst they are here just in case they are any good.

As for deportation don’t make me laugh we can’t even deport terrorists, naughty person or murderers so there was never any chance that Tuilagi would be deported.

So is he definitely Scottish then?

I've been banned from 606 for saying less than that.

I'd say I concur entirely with his views, but I fear I'd be banned again.

How about the legendary World Cup winner Stuart Abbott?

Never heard of him? Me neither for a long time. He sat on a lot of benches when Catt, Greenwood and (a young) Tindall were playing.

Your choices are: Abbott, Tait, Allen, Farell, Erinlie, Hipkiss, Cipriani (apparently played a game there), Flutey, Tom May, Vesty, or Hape

Islingtonv2 wrote:"More recently rugby supporters would still have a beer with the players on a Saturday night after the game. It made them feel closer to the team and the players less remote. But then professionalism came along and the players were hauled off to schmooze the sponsors."

Not entirely the fault of professionalism but also of a celebrity obsessed general public that will do anything to break a story for Heat magazine. Exhibit 1 - Tindallgate

To be fair, if Tindall had kept it in his metaphorical pants, then he'd not be getting any grief. I'm not sure it's "celebrity obsessed general public" to point out you think the Queen's step nephew is playing one from home whilst the paint is still wet on the marriage.

mckay1402 wrote:So is he definitely Scottish then?

Says "English born" on a few of his, for want of a better word, "articles".

Knowsit17 wrote:The three-year residency rule is somewhat disgraceful in my eyes. Those wishing to exploit it will find that they are technically able to play for a country without even being a citizen of that country. At the very least residential qualification should be extended to a five-year period, the same amount of time it would take to fully become a citizen through registration for those without parentage.

Having said that the grandmother ruling is too obscure a link and is open to manipulation. At least one of the immediate parents ought to be a qualified citizen imo.

I'm not defending the rule but the reason i expect that its so short is to help tier 2/3 nations utilise all possible playing resources available. You'll see plenty of residency qualified players in Japan, USA, Canada squads.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

Islingtonv2 wrote:"More recently rugby supporters would still have a beer with the players on a Saturday night after the game. It made them feel closer to the team and the players less remote. But then professionalism came along and the players were hauled off to schmooze the sponsors."

Not entirely the fault of professionalism but also of a celebrity obsessed general public that will do anything to break a story for Heat magazine. Exhibit 1 - Tindallgate

To be fair, if Tindall had kept it in his metaphorical pants, then he'd not be getting any grief. I'm not sure it's "celebrity obsessed general public" to point out you think the Queen's step nephew is playing one from home whilst the paint is still wet on the marriage.

Yeah, being kissed on the forehead is definitely a divorce level error.

I wasn't there, and wouldn't like to comment.

But if videos with evidence to the contrary show up, then he can hardly blame anyone but himself.

Possibly Farrell for worst centre between 2003 and now.

Hype, hype, hype, hype, hype.............nothing

Though Hape has looked the definition of "ordinary" since the start of his involvement.

How some of these players make it to WC starting lineups I'll never know. No matter what resources are at your disposal, not all positions may glitter.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

Islingtonv2 wrote:"More recently rugby supporters would still have a beer with the players on a Saturday night after the game. It made them feel closer to the team and the players less remote. But then professionalism came along and the players were hauled off to schmooze the sponsors."

Not entirely the fault of professionalism but also of a celebrity obsessed general public that will do anything to break a story for Heat magazine. Exhibit 1 - Tindallgate

To be fair, if Tindall had kept it in his metaphorical pants, then he'd not be getting any grief. I'm not sure it's "celebrity obsessed general public" to point out you think the Queen's step nephew is playing one from home whilst the paint is still wet on the marriage.

Oh come on, that was a sensationalised storm in a tea cup in which non of the players actions were out of the ordinary (have you never wrestled a dwarf of an evening out?). It was red top gossip but will make players think twice about bothering to go out after a match in future.

If Martin Johnson didn't pick a foreign-player who qualified for England purely on the basis of where he or his parents were born then that would be racial discrimination and it is illegal.

Your grievances would be better directed at the IRB for what you perceive to be lax qualification regulations, rather than an England manager who is picking the best players available to him and refusing to discriminate against players because Mark Reason deems them "not English enough".

I don't think Mark Reason is New Zealandy enough to be working for a New Zealand news paper.

5 years is not reasonable as the average pro career is 6.

The rules are about ok as far as I am concerned, and there will always be arguments about who is "Irish" enough. "English" enough etc.

Mainly by people who have never met the players in question etc.etc.

Should we have a "test" to see whether players are "insert nationality here ish" enough?

Or should we force prospective players to meet every single rugby fan in the country, and have to convince a majority that they "really want it" enough?

It's all a load of me bollix. The rules are there. Don't whinge about them.

robbo277 wrote:If Martin Johnson didn't pick a foreign-player who qualified for England purely on the basis of where he or his parents were born then that would be racial discrimination and it is illegal.

Your grievances would be better directed at the IRB for what you perceive to be lax qualification regulations, rather than an England manager who is picking the best players available to him and refusing to discriminate against players because Mark Reason deems them "not English enough".

But is it too much to ask that players become legal citizens of a country before being allowed to play for that country? This would normally mean extending the residency rule from 3 to 5 years (in the UK, I'm not familiar with immigration laws in other countries).

I personally find it flawed that you can represent a country you're not legally a part of. It's a loophole left wide open to manipulation and those wishing to exploit it could take the "racial discrimination" argument to the extreme. Theoretically in future nations could be represented by teams not consisting of a single individual realistically from that nation as a result.

The interesting thing I find is that SH folk are happy to knock those with European heritage moving to the NH to play test rugby but never and I mean never seem to knock those from NZ playing for Samoa, Tonga or Fiji?

I would bet their are more NZers playing for the PI nations then the so called foreign mercenaries in the 6N teams.

Anyhow there is not one of the England first XV whom didn't decide to play for ENG out of choice from the beginning of their careers against trying to play for their nation of choice.

Stevens, Hartley, Armitage & Tuilagi all came to the UK as minors and could have represented their home nation if they wanted to. Tuilagi came to ENG at a younger age than Sivivatu went to NZ (17).

All that trash about NZ & SA only choosing home grown players.... hmm ever heard of Chavhanga, Teichmann, Garvey, Mujati & Beast? The quoted listed had little or no SA blood in the them and only moved to SA to further their rugby careers.. Beast wasn't even a SA citizen until last year when they fast tracked his passport.

The real reason is that teams like ENG are an actual threat unlike the PI nations and they are upset at the so called traitors whom potentially could deny their chance at RWC glory... oh and that Everest size ex colonial chip on their shoulders... I still laugh at the Sydney Morning Herald's rugby site whom regularly post articles solely on what the English newspapers are saying... its pathetic.

This idiot Mark Reason came over from the UK and started writing bilge on NZ papers to stir up opinion and of course increase readership. He normally sticks to having a go at anything to do with the ABs. I´m surprised he´s turning against his own. He´s a waste of space. He knows nothing about the game of rugby, but just prefers vacuous rhetoric. A million monkeys on a million typewriters couldn´t come up with this drivel.

By the way, Mark Reason is just his nom de plume. His real name is Wayne Kerr.

Who the F is this racist git and why should I care?

I am happy for Welsh folk to represent me.I am unhappy when non-Welsh folk are selected to represent me.If I was English I would be hopping mad!

lostinwales wrote:Who the F is this racist git and why should I care?

You beat me to it....fact is there is a point to be made about mercenaries but this article is at best xenophobic

I think things said by Mark Reason are meant to be inflammatory,

for example

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/our-experts/5535927/A-word-on-the-All-Blacks-play-Cheats

So probably best to leave him to his rantings, pat him on the head & suggest it's time for him to self copulate

G2 wrote:I think things said by Mark Reason are meant to be inflammatory,

for example

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/our-experts/5535927/A-word-on-the-All-Blacks-play-Cheats

So probably best to leave him to his rantings, pat him on the head & suggest it's time for him to self copulate

I completely disagree...its the whole what happens if good men do nothing issue. People who spout this sort of tosh need to be grabbed by the short and curlies and given a thorough licking. he has a point to make but this is just xenophobic vitriol

I didn't specify what you pat him on the head with

G2 wrote:I didn't specify what you pat him on the head with

screamingaddabs wrote:How about the legendary World Cup winner Stuart Abbott?

Never heard of him? Me neither for a long time. He sat on a lot of benches when Catt, Greenwood and (a young) Tindall were playing.

Your choices are: Abbott, Tait, Allen, Farell, Erinlie, Hipkiss, Cipriani (apparently played a game there), Flutey, Tom May, Vesty, or Hape

Abbott was a superb IC that should have been the natural successor to Greenwood (he possessed a very similar skill set), but he was unfortunately blighted by a number of injuries, in particular a very nasty broken leg just as he was coming to prominence, and had to retire due to shoulder injury at 28.

Taffineastbourne wrote:I am happy for Welsh folk to represent me.I am unhappy when non-Welsh folk are selected to represent me.If I was English I would be hopping mad!

So are you happy that Falatue represents wales? (no different to Tualagi
Or North represents Wales (No different to Shaw)
Or Shankling, Horseman, Charvis etc represented Wales?

If you are happy with the above you have no right to criticise England

wrfc1980 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:I am happy for Welsh folk to represent me.I am unhappy when non-Welsh folk are selected to represent me.If I was English I would be hopping mad!

So are you happy that Falatue represents wales? (no different to Tualagi
Or North represents Wales (No different to Shaw)
Or Shankling, Horseman, Charvis etc represented Wales?

If you are happy with the above you have no right to criticise England

FFS can people make the effort to spell players' names correctly!

Think he quite clearly said he is unhappy when he is represented by non Welsh!

Mark Reason is English so I can't see how this is either racist or Xenophobic. Perhaps rather than getting on the defensive you might be more concerned about how your RFU is failing to bring through players who are better than journeymen from the other side of the world.

Yes You can quote players from Wales who weren't Welsh but I think Shanklin is probably ok being as his Dad played for Wales too...

englandglory4ever wrote:Surprise, surprise. A Scotsman belly aching about England just before an Eng v Sco match. This topic is so passée. I can't believe any right minded person would have the nerve to raise it yet again.

Oh dear, he's actually English-born. But at least the rest of what you said is right - v v passé

mckay1402 not sure what you mean by the RFU failing to bring through players. Isn't it the England management's job to pick the best players in England?

I dislike the RFU, they are a bunch of incompetent old farts but should the blame be just on them.

Our English youngsters are actually very good. Better than any of the 6 nations and just below NZ. You might think I am being arrogant but in U20s world cups in recent England is generally only below NZ. We win the U20s 6 nations virtually every year.

The Welsh youngsters are perceived to be better because they get more opportunities on the international stage. They are not.

We have so many English youngsters coming through.

Just at Saracens

Wing - Short,Watson
Full back - Goode,Ransom
Centre - Taylor,Stanley
Fly half - Farrell
Scrum half - Baldwin,Spencer
Backrow - Wray,Fraser,Hankin
2nd Row - Kruis, Jubb
Hooker - Allen,George,Spurling
Prop - Vunipola,Auterac

Most of these guys are either England U20s or have been.

Formerly of our parish were Noah Cato and Tom Mercey both at Saints now.

That's just one club - the club supposedly South African.

You times that by 12 and you get a lot of players!

You might not know who half those players are but everyone should know about James Short, Alex Goode and Owen Farrell by now.