A Golfer's view of the Rugby World Cup

First topic message reminder :

With the group stages of the Rugby world cup drawing to a close and we approach the sharp end of the tournament, I wonder how many people here are avidly following it

I know we have a rugby section here on V2 and it's pretty lively at the moment but I've noticed many golfers also seem to be keen on Rugby. I know at my club there are an awful lot of rugby fans and the big games get a large crowd to watch at the club - we even have a four nations weekend with matches between England Ireland Scotland and Wales

So who here is watching the RWC and who are we supporting?

I'm trying to work out my schedule for Saturday morning with the England/Scotland group decider at 8:30am and a tee-time at 11:10 - debating with myself whether I should watch the game at home, down the pub for breakfast or even have the (superior) breakfast at the club but then have perhaps an hour to kill before my tee-time!

MustPuttBetter wrote:No one moaned about Shearer and he was playing in the correct position!

I don't think people moaned about Shearer because they felt he was no longer good enough at international level.

No one moaned about Andy, sorry, Andrew Cole either.

Shearer was worse at 30 than Scholes at 30? I don't think so Merc

MustPuttBetter wrote:Ray

All of those points are your opinions and your entitled to them.
Personally I thought Scholes was a wonderful player and I understood why at the age of 30 he didn't want to be dragged away from his family to play left wing for England anymore. No one moaned about Shearer and he was playing in the correct position!

Henry, Guardiola, Xavi, Zidane and I'm sure a number of others agree with me, all of whom are quoted as saying Scholes was the best player of his generation in his position

I'm not disagreeing with you... he was a great player, just hate the lying, cheating attitude so pervasive in the game. Although he shied away from celebrity culture, not a good role model.

MustPuttBetter wrote:Shearer was worse at 30 than Scholes at 30? I don't think so Merc

At international level, Shearer was clearly passed it. To Shearer's credit, he knew it, too.

Fair enough Ray.
In general sporting terms maybe not a role model. But in footballing terms he wasn't too bad. Unfortunately every single footballer cheats. It's part of the game. Thankfully not so in golf.

Merc I don't think Shearer was any further from his best at 30 than Scholes was at the same age

Ive got to agree with Merc on this one. Shearer had lost his pace by the time he was 26, Euro 96 was probably his international peak. Scholes for me started to get better as a player from his mid 20's onwards.
I also have to say that its not like there was a national outcry when Scholes quit, people were like oh thats a shame but hey ho.

I'm not saying that Shearer wasn't past his best when he retired. I'm saying Scholes was too.
Ray's point was that he retired early

Does anyone think the French can beat the Welsh on Saturday?

Davie wrote:Does anyone think the French can beat the Welsh on Saturday?

No. Ze Frenchies are incapable of producing two decent performances in succession. Zut alors!!

Just a final Footie one.

After the Scottish penalty I was dissapointed that the Scots fans did not give us the 'One Goodwillie, we've only got one Goodwillie' chant.

The 35 year old version of paul scholes would still be in the list of 5 best english midfielders since boby charlton.

Just watching the Victory Sheild on sky, very impressed with Mason Bennet, just scored 2 goals, and is only 15 latest score England 3 NI 1

McLaren wrote:The 35 year old version of paul scholes would still be in the list of 5 best english midfielders since boby charlton.

Silly comparison, Charlton was considered more of a forward than a midfielder.

True, but there is the united connection.

Davie wrote:We definitely need a "Golfer's view of Football" thread

So agree, Davie. I thought this thread was supposed about rugby ...

Marcus wrote:

Davie wrote:Does anyone think the French can beat the Welsh on Saturday?

No. Ze Frenchies are incapable of producing two decent performances in succession. Zut alors!!

Not so sure, Marcus. I think the French are doing very much what England did in 2007 and deciding to play their own game in spite of the manger's often inexplicable input. I feel the Welsh may be overcome with the emotion of it all but I'm looking forward to a tight and exciting game. For some unknown reason, I feel the Aussies v the ABs could be a dour affair. I'll record it and then decide whether or not to watch it when I know the result.

Come on

MustPuttBetter wrote:
 
I’m not disagreeing that we’re behind the times in style of play and coaching. I’m disagreeing with the notion that English players have poor technique. I don’t think that’s true

It isn't a notion it's clear that they do if you aren't an Englishman anyway (Gary Neville excluded). While England are capable of producing world class players, they don't produce a depth of world class players. The gulf between a Lampard or Gerrard compared with Parker or Barry is massive imo. Or moving away from midfielders, Crouch and Bent have glaring gaps in their ability that had they been coached differently from youth level may not have been so obvious. Spain in 2002 qualified without dropping a point for the WC (they have done this a lot and then underperformed at the finals), they were among the favorites but were knocked out in controversial circumstances by South Korea. Their midfield included Albelda, Mendieta and Baraja of Valencia (had just wont the CL), Xavi and Luis Enrique (Barcelona). Baraja was the only one to start regularly in that campaign. Arteta has never been near a cap for Spain, surplus to requirements at Barca such are the numbers they bring through. He has starred in the Premier League from the minute he got here and would have had 50 England caps by now if he had been born here. England seldom have that level of depth.

I can see where you are coming from in saying that England can produce word class players, with a different coaching mentality you should have the depth I am talking about, but you don't and haven't since the early 90's. Italy won the world cup in 2006 and it was hardly a golden generation for them, but their ability to keep the ball, keep a clean sheet and nick a goal when it matters was enough. Germany tore England to bits in the last WC, their passing, movement and pace was fantastic and they seem to have grown from there into and even better side now. Coaching from a young age has developed their technical ability to a level that England as a collective do not reach.

Don't take my word for it, take Gary Neville's...
'What we should be talking about is the spine of a team that has no mobility and can't keep the ball'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15232130.stm

Redrage wrote:Their midfield included Albelda, Mendieta and Baraja of Valencia (had just wont [sic] the CL)

Valencia have won the Champions League before?

LadyPutt wrote:

Marcus wrote:

Davie wrote:Does anyone think the French can beat the Welsh on Saturday?

No. Ze Frenchies are incapable of producing two decent performances in succession. Zut alors!!

Not so sure, Marcus. I think the French are doing very much what England did in 2007 and deciding to play their own game in spite of the manger's often inexplicable input. I feel the Welsh may be overcome with the emotion of it all but I'm looking forward to a tight and exciting game. For some unknown reason, I feel the Aussies v the ABs could be a dour affair. I'll record it and then decide whether or not to watch it when I know the result.

Come on

The French have been incredibly poor so far, and they only beat England thanks to the English being a complete shambles. Of course, the Frenchies can pull out a tres magnifique performance at any time, but they're just as likely to lose 38-3. The Welsh on the other hand have been playing some impressive stuff.


I've got to admit, I am REALLY disappointed with the England team. I stopped watching football because I found professional footballers to be obnoxius, arrogant, hideous characters. Unfortunately, it appears that the England rugby team may be going down the same path. It's obvious that the Mike Tindall thing got blown wildly out of proportion, and it's also obvious that there was a focused media campaign in NZ to unsettle the England team at any and every opportunity, but some of the other stuff left a really bad taste in the mouth. Rugby is all about respect, both on and off the field, and England failed on both counts during this world cup.

At least our cricket team do us proud!

Quite a good joke nicked from Mark Webbers FI BBC column -

An Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman all walk into a bar… to watch Wales in the Rugby World Cup semi-final.

Obviously hilarious if you are Welsh.

Marcus - I so agree with you. I feel let down as well. I've always been a rugby fan (never liked football) and was so disappointed because, on paper, wehad a great team. I understand MJ's decision to treat his players like adults and expect them to take responsibility for their own actions, but unfortunately they acted like children instead. The "nanny" approach of the Welsh management seems to have been more appropriate.

However, I think the football and celebrity-obsessed British media were hell bent on stirring up trouble from the moment England landed in NZ and the Tindall issue was certainly blown out of all proportion thanks to a bouncer deciding he wanted to make a few extra bucks by selling his bar's CCTV (without authority) to the press. It can't have been easy for the team or the management to focus on matters on the pitch with all that bad press flying around. It is a disgrace that the press were so keen to put the team down all the time rather than be positive and get behind them.

Diggers - like it, but then Mark Webber is a very dry-humoured Aussie. Would he have cracked the same joke if the Saffers had won through to the semis?

I'm disappointed by the England ON pitch performances but feel all the so-called scandals have been nothing but an opportunity for the media to stick the knives in

Of the OFF field episodes, the only one that left a slightly bitter taste was Haskell's remark to the hotel worker (even the high jinx by the other two involved in the incident seemed pretty innocent).

When you look at all the other incidents (Tindallgate, dwarves, mouthguards, bungee jumping, impromptu swims in the harbour, ball swapping) none of them were really very news-worthy

I think they were all newsworthy personally, maybe not as scandals but all reportable. The England team have committed so many little faux pas that seen in their entirety they really do look like a bunch of...well premiership footballers.
Another one in the news today -
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blog/oval-talk/article/2730/
When you cant even be polite to your own sponsors when they are taking you for a jolly its a very sad state of affairs.

Sorry Davie, but we have players who are representing their country behaving like a bunch of MORONS, and you are saying it is OK.

Had that been the football team that behaved like the rugby side, then the papers would have wanted head to roll and rightly so.

Tuilagi was very lucky that "Swimgate" wasn't more serious. Jumping off the back of the ferry meant that he could quite easily have jumped on to, or been sucked in to the propeller. He's a bloody idiot.

What is it about professional team sportsmen in this country? They seem to all be gradually losing their grip on reality.

When you have a guy like Martin Johnson in charge it is no surprise to me that the team would be undisiplined and arrogant.

I don't recall MJ ever getting into any off-field trouble

As for arrogant, well he did lift the Webb Ellis trophy so I suppose he is allowed a certain arrogance

Davie wrote:I don't recall MJ ever getting into any off-field trouble

As for arrogant, well he did lift the Webb Ellis trophy so I suppose he is allowed a certain arrogance

What's any of this got to do with football??

On a different note, is mike tindall not one of the ugliest blokes you've ever seenk, no wonder he married someone who looks like a boiled horse.

My memories of Martin Jonson as a player and captain of England was of someone who wasted about 10 minutes of every game disputing the referee's decisions. He was also a bit 'over physical' as a player.

Plus he looks like a fat Pete sampras

Doon the Water wrote:My memories of Martin Jonson as a player and captain of England was of someone who wasted about 10 minutes of every game disputing the referee's decisions. He was also a bit 'over physical' as a player.

That's why I said he never got into trouble OFF the field, which I felt was the point you were trying to make

Move the goalpost if you like but I addressed what you first said.

Yes, he was a fairly robust player on the field - but also remember that the captain of a rugby team is (supposed to be) the only player who can talk to the referee

Awe come on Davie. He was a right miserable git who was always moaning to the referee.
You call it over robust, I call it over physical someone else may say thug.

Image wise he was a very poor England Rugby captain who lowered the tone for future captains.

Sorry I thought you were talking about his role in off-field matters

I will be at TV on Saturday cheering on the Welsh. Always had a liking for them (since Scotland were put out). Shame about the early kick off as I am going out with guys from work on Friday night for a few "sherbets"

I would imagine that most of us will be behind the Welsh hoping they can go all the way and win it.

Was he not a police inspector, god help us.

He was obviously not in control of his players, if there was anyone left in charge at headquarters he would have been shipped out by now.

Jings Davie you are like a bulldog that has swallowed a wasp, where did I mention off field activities.

As my mother was born in Llanelli [but so far has lived 60 years in Scotland] I too will be cheering on the Welsh. Her brother was a barber and used to cut Barry Johns hair.

Doon the Water wrote:He was obviously not in control of his players, if there was anyone left in charge at headquarters he would have been shipped out by now.

Jings Davie you are like a bulldog that has swallowed a wasp, where did I mention off field activities.

It was this post from you that led me to believe you were talking about the off field problems, not on field.

When you have a guy like Martin Johnson in charge it is no surprise to me that the team would be undisiplined and arrogant.

It was in response to the posts about the off field activities. Maybe I was wrong....

Mercurio wrote:

Redrage wrote:Their midfield included Albelda, Mendieta and Baraja of Valencia (had just wont [sic] the CL)

Valencia have won the Champions League before?

Pardon me, back to back runners up... clearly my argument about the consistent depth of Spanish talent is flawed by this oversight.

It's the consistent bit that is flawed Redrage

Marcus wrote:

Davie wrote:Does anyone think the French can beat the Welsh on Saturday?

No. Ze Frenchies are incapable of producing two decent performances in succession. Zut alors!!

About as relevant as all those saying Ireland had all the experience before they lost. If Wales go in thinking that they'll be caned.

Diggers wrote:Quite a good joke nicked from Mark Webbers FI BBC column -

An Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman all walk into a bar… to watch Wales in the Rugby World Cup semi-final.

Obviously hilarious if you are Welsh.

Don't give up the day job Mark .

LadyPutt wrote:...was so disappointed because, on paper, wehad a great team...

I beg your pardon??? We had no such thing. No specialist openside (BIG mistake), centres who can't construct anything and one (Tindall) who can't pass properly, a well past-it Wilkinson playing even though Flood is the in-form and incisive 10, Youngs whose service is glacial, a pack who couldn't deliver quick ball if their life depended on it (may be related to a lack of a genuine 7), backs who can't pass in front of the target and some awful team selections and strategy. We've been poor for years with the occasional distracting positive result.


Davie

Sorry, have to agree that the off-field antics were plain dull. Sure, they were undoubtedly over-blown by a pathetic media (interesting that Gatland has now come out and said that actually, the Welsh aren't really Trappist Monks) but they've gone beyond what is acceptable I think. What's worse is they don't even seem to realise it which makes it very irritating, especially for those that went to NZ to watch them stink the place out.

Doon the Water wrote:When you have a guy like Martin Johnson in charge it is no surprise to me that the team would be undisiplined and arrogant.

oldparwin wrote:I would imagine that most of us will be behind the Welsh hoping they can go all the way and win it.

Nope. France for me! May be something to do with being Bristolian and I also think France have given a lot to the RWC viz. excitement and would be good if they won it. That said, if the Taffs get the better of them on Saturday, I'll be behind them to beat whomever emerges from the other cat fight.

Doon the Water wrote:...Was he not a police inspector, god help us.

No, he wasn't. Ackford was. Ben Kay was. Dooley was a PC...now he was a thug.

MustPuttBetter wrote:It's the consistent bit that is flawed Redrage

How so? Spanish clubs have won more CLs/European Cups than any other league. They have won titles in 2000, 2002, 2006, 2009, 2011 with runners up in 2000 and 2001. If you looked at second tier European comps like the Uefa and the CWC, it's a similar story. The national team must have earned their perennial underachievers tag by some sort of mistake.

Sorry to burst the bubble but the likes of Real winning the CL has had very little to do with Spanish players.

You're breaking your own argument Redrage. Spain being labelled underachievers apparently means they have quality players, and yet England underachieving means they have poor players?

Look, i'm not saying we're as good as Spain. We're not. That much is clear. What i'm saying is you can't keep comparing us to them all the time as they are an outstanding one off.
Up until very recently we have always produced as many if not more quality players than them. Without doubt.
We do need to address what we do with those players in terms of style of play at national level as that's where we fall down.

Spain have had a very good crop of players come good at the same time and i'm afraid there is an element of luck to this. Just like there was to Brazil's bunch of the 70s and say United's youngsters all coming good in the late 90s.
You seem to be trying to argue that it's all down to better coaching meaning they all have better technique which is rubbish.

If you are correct and that is the case, then presumably they're going to be this good forever are they? The coaches will continue to turn out the likes of Xavi and Iniesta forever more? We'll see

MustPuttBetter wrote:Sorry to burst the bubble but the likes of Real winning the CL has had very little to do with Spanish players.

You're breaking your own argument Redrage. Spain being labelled underachievers apparently means they have quality players, and yet England underachieving means they have poor players?

Look, i'm not saying we're as good as Spain. We're not. That much is clear. What i'm saying is you can't keep comparing us to them all the time as they are an outstanding one off.
Up until very recently we have always produced as many if not more quality players than them. Without doubt.
We do need to address what we do with those players in terms of style of play at national level as that's where we fall down.

Spain have had a very good crop of players come good at the same time and i'm afraid there is an element of luck to this. Just like there was to Brazil's bunch of the 70s and say United's youngsters all coming good in the late 90s.
You seem to be trying to argue that it's all down to better coaching meaning they all have better technique which is rubbish.

If you are correct and that is the case, then presumably they're going to be this good forever are they? The coaches will continue to turn out the likes of Xavi and Iniesta forever more? We'll see

I'm sorry MPB, but you've treaded well beyond your knowledge here. For a start referring to Real Madrid as "Real" gives the game away that you know little about Spanish football. I bet you are one of those people who refer to Man U as Manchester.

Anyway I digress.

The point is, Spain is miles ahead of England in the development of technically gifted players. It's not just the current squad of elite world class players, but it runs right the way through Spanish professional football and down to school kids. A friend of mine who is a teacher moved from England to teach in Valencia and when he coached at the school he said the kids were 2-3 years ahead of English kids in terms of their technical development and the things they could do. This kind of system is naturally going to breed better players.

Sure England have had some world class players over the last 10 years, and these guys have under-performed, but we don't seem to have the depth of talent that keeps the likes of Lampard on their toes and gives us the flexibility to play different styles and formations. You only need to look at the Prem to see that by and large English players aren't good enough (just ask Wenger), which is why every team is packed with foreigners. They are plenty of international stars in Spanish football, but if you look across the league, fundamentally most teams are dominated by Spanish home grown players. Just look at Athletic Bilbao who have consistently finished mid-table and higher, and they only play home grown players from the Basque region.

After spending a fortune of Fanny Jeffers, no wonder Wenger decided to scour Europe for young boys.

Ray

Who the hell do you think you are?
And as for my 'knowledge', i can guarantee you bucko that i've more experience and knowledge in football than you ever will.
I was referring to Real Madrid - as opposed to all the other 'Reals' that have won the champions league numerous times.
I've never heard anyone refer to Manchester United as Manchester and what has that got to do with anything??
Do you base all your opinions on others based on how they refer to Real Mardid? That must make you very clever indeed...........

If your friend who lives in Spain says they're all ahead of our kids then hell, it must be true!
Unfortunately, history would beg to differ.
I repeat, until the current crop, Spain produced quality players at no better a rate than we did. If you disagree, give me some proof........

And yes, our players have underperformed.
That's my point!

I wish i could come back with a response based on what my friend told me but unfortuntely i just don't have your 'knowledge base'. Fool

Don't want to get involved here, think the truth is somewhere between MPB and Ray but I did just want to comment on the excellent usage of the word "Bucko". Surely a first for either 606 forum.

Ray, it does amuse me that you mock my use of ‘Real’ – something that a great many people up and down this country refer to them as, whether it’s technically correct in Madrid or otherwise. I would love to know exactly how this impinges on my ability to watch them play football and reflect on facts and stats.
And yet you use ‘Man U’ and the ‘Prem’, leaving me in no doubt that you are probably a Chelsea fan – which essentially explains everything.

As you've actually presented me so far with no actual facts to back up your ‘argument’, only that your friend said Spanish kids were 2 or 3 years 'ahead', I’ll offer you some facts to help you along.

Prior to the current crop, major international trophy count.....

England 1 world cup
Spain 1 euro championships

More specifically player related if you like, we can look at the Ballon d’Or (I hope I’ve stated that correctly enough for you) winners.....

England 4
Spain 2

Oh, where are all the excellent Spanish players?
You probably know all this already with your knowledge, but it’s even more interesting when I tell you that Spain’s 2 winners were both Alfredo di Stefano, who was born, raised and coached in Argentina and Columbia. So Spain’s only ever winner of world player of the year wasn’t even Spanish coached?? Hmm, isn’t that interesting – no Spanish coached players have ever won it?

To summarise, I’ve no problem accepting the brilliance of the current Spanish team. They are quite clearly better than us.
But the notion that they have always and consistently coached better players than us is just rubbish.
As I said, if this is the case, we’ll see if they stay at their current level when Villa, Iniesta and Xavi are gone.........

Digs, thanks bucko!

Ray (or is that ray" lord of football knowledge"castleunited)

I have watched and played football since the age of 5 and read about it everyday of my life. I would class my knowledge of football around Europe as pretty good and never have I come across anyone take exception to calling Real Madrid "real". In fact just a month ago a hard core Spanish football fan, a Spanish national and in a Spanish bar, referred to them as real, I guess I should have known he was a fraud after that????

You must be some sort of lonely man if you think pulling someone up on that is worth it. And no I don’t call Manchester united "Manchester", although oddly a lot of knowledgeable fans from European nations do. Are they ass holes for that mistake as well?