A Golfer's view of the Rugby World Cup

First topic message reminder :

With the group stages of the Rugby world cup drawing to a close and we approach the sharp end of the tournament, I wonder how many people here are avidly following it

I know we have a rugby section here on V2 and it's pretty lively at the moment but I've noticed many golfers also seem to be keen on Rugby. I know at my club there are an awful lot of rugby fans and the big games get a large crowd to watch at the club - we even have a four nations weekend with matches between England Ireland Scotland and Wales

So who here is watching the RWC and who are we supporting?

I'm trying to work out my schedule for Saturday morning with the England/Scotland group decider at 8:30am and a tee-time at 11:10 - debating with myself whether I should watch the game at home, down the pub for breakfast or even have the (superior) breakfast at the club but then have perhaps an hour to kill before my tee-time!

Mac, he's got a friend in Spain don't forget
That's the key to this enviable knowledge in Spanish football........

MustPuttBetter wrote:Mac, he's got a friend in Spain don't forget
That's the key to this enviable knowledge in Spanish football........

Well I was just trying to be constructive and showing that somebody who has an objective point of view, ie someone who has actually coached both in Spain and England, could see very clear distinctions. If you are going to post your opinions on here you have to accept they are going to be challenged, it's really quite pathetic for anyone to resort to insults MPB, I bet you feel really big behind your keyboard

And guess what, I actually used to live in Spain, I'm not claiming to know more about world football than you mac or mpb but it is pretty clear to me from your limited comments that I have a better undertstanding about Spanish football than you. And you know what, the fact you don't get my reference to "Real" and "Manchester" just illustrates it even more. I'll send this over to some of my Spanish mates so they can have a good giggle. And as for Alfredo di Stefano, come on man join the 21st century! Do you still feel the need to talk about 1966? Keep the blinkers on.

Ray, you weren't trying to be constructive at all. You were quite insulting with your 'treading beyond my knowledge' comment.
I'm happy for my opinion to be challenged and was quite happy debating until you waded in with that. If you can't take it.......
I'm sure i feel no bigger now than you did when you wrote that.

And no, no-one gets your Real / Manchester point. I'm sure you have some super knowledge on that that you think makes you more qualified in football than everyone else. Good luck with that. Keep the blinkers on.

As for Di Stefano, it's ages ago! That's the point!!!
If you want to look more recently we can but that would leave your argument with zero Spanish winners.
But then again you completely chose to ignore all the actual football based bits didn't you?

It seems you were more interested in backtracking. Oh well............beep beep beep.....

Getting back to post!!!

I see the Cardiff stadium will be sold out tomorrow
9am KO quit an amazing bunch of fans. There will be a bigger crowd at Cardiff than at Eden Park.

I think Cardiff will be rocking tonight.

Good idea Doon
I for one will be wishing the welsh well...

MustPuttBetter wrote:Sorry to burst the bubble but the likes of Real winning the CL has had very little to do with Spanish players.

You're breaking your own argument Redrage. Spain being labelled underachievers apparently means they have quality players, and yet England underachieving means they have poor players?

Look, i'm not saying we're as good as Spain. We're not. That much is clear. What i'm saying is you can't keep comparing us to them all the time as they are an outstanding one off.
Up until very recently we have always produced as many if not more quality players than them. Without doubt.
We do need to address what we do with those players in terms of style of play at national level as that's where we fall down.

Spain have had a very good crop of players come good at the same time and i'm afraid there is an element of luck to this. Just like there was to Brazil's bunch of the 70s and say United's youngsters all coming good in the late 90s.
You seem to be trying to argue that it's all down to better coaching meaning they all have better technique which is rubbish.

If you are correct and that is the case, then presumably they're going to be this good forever are they? The coaches will continue to turn out the likes of Xavi and Iniesta forever more? We'll see

I don't think England underachieve. English people do. Anyone impartial can see they aren't good enough. England is a football mad country with a massive population and well funded footballing infrastructure. They should do better but there is a reason that they haven't made the final of a major championship for nearly 50 years. I mentioned more nations than Spain, all of them perform consistently better than England in major finals and it is down to technique and coaching as far as I am concerned, the two go hand in hand. As long as the likes of Neil Warnock and Tony Pullis are managing premier league clubs then England have no chance as they represent everything that is wrong with football in the UK. It might be effective at times but it won't deliver long term success in this day and age.

Spain have a reputation for underachieving in most other countries, the same cannot be said of England. Spain have the same philosophy as the Dutch and Germans, even Italy who are always there or there abouts at major finals. In the UK it's all about winning from school kids upwards, on the continent the coaches don't care about winning matches at that level, they teach them to be footballers. Their training quite often doesn't even have goals, the aim of the sessions is to keep the ball from the other team for as long as possible and the players learn how to pass and move without having to think about it. The kids are used in every position, they don't just stick a big guy at the back and fast guy out wide.

If you think that English players are and have always been equal to the calibre of the Spanish, German, Italian, Dutch sides then we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think you are deluding yourself. How often do these sides buy English players, British even? Rarely, because they are overpriced and overrated.

Excellent point Redrage, England don't underachieve, they over-expect.
There is also the belief that good individuals make a good team.

Redrage, all of the bits about coaching and how other countries coach their kids I completely agree with.

I don't however believe that English lads have a worse basic technique - controlling and moving the ball - than those countries. What we have is worse flexibility, worse tactical awareness and so on. We need to improve that at junior level by not, for example, sticking the big lad a centre back all the time.

Most of the countries I've been to, many to play football in, consider England to be the biggest underachievers in the world.

Why English players don't move abroad is for a whole number of reasons the least of which is ability. They certainly receive enough interest from foreign clubs.

I have no interest in deluding myself. It serves no purpose for me to convince anyone that England are better than they are. I am happy to agree to disagree

MustPuttBetter wrote: I am happy to agree to disagree

Okay, I'll drink to that... it is a Friday aferall!

Bottoms up!!

The list of English players who have succeded in Spain, Italy and Germany would be pretty slim.

Beckham for one then goal poachers like Earacher and Archibald [Scots I know] did OK.
John Charles, Law, Souness, Lambert also did well for the non English.

Great post redrage, I fully agree with you.

There is one small point however I need to make. Neil Warnock seems to have re-invented himself of late... I have been astounded by some of the free-flowing attacking football at QPR. He made a comment that he had waited his whole career to have the right players to play this sort of football. Although I take that with a pinch of salt he seems to have turned over a new leaf.

Doon the Water wrote:The list of English players who have succeded in Spain, Italy and Germany would be pretty slim.

Beckham for one then goal poachers like Earacher and Archibald [Scots I know] did OK.
John Charles, Law, Souness, Lambert also did well for the non English.

Lineker did ok. MacManaman too. Hargreaves (ok not really English). Luther Blissett anyone? Gazza? Waddle? Platt?

Ray
In Scotland Lineker is Earacher!
Forgot Hargreaves he did have a good career.

raycastleunited wrote:Great post redrage, I fully agree with you.

There is one small point however I need to make. Neil Warnock seems to have re-invented himself of late... I have been astounded by some of the free-flowing attacking football at QPR. He made a comment that he had waited his whole career to have the right players to play this sort of football. Although I take that with a pinch of salt he seems to have turned over a new leaf.

I name dropped him because he was quoted this week as saying the England job would be easy and that taking 25 passes to get to the half way line is not very exciting. This mentality is just all wrong imo.

Keegan did ok?!
There are clearly as many Joe average English players who could have gone abroad as there are average foreigners who have come here.

Ray, one thing I do agree on is there is no place for Warnock in our game. A complete idiot. Apparently he told Anton Ferdinand to stop passing the ball and hoof it more...

Someone PLEASE start a football thread and leave this one to the rugby

I'd love to split it off but after 8 pages of football drivel it would test the patience of a saint to go through them all

Good luck to the Welsh fans but I've gone for a France win on the 606v2 tipping contest

Come on Davie, it's hardly the end of the world is it!
The rugby thread belongs on the rugby board anyway if we're being pedantic....

No it's not the end of the world

Neither would it be the end of the world for football talk to be on a football thread, and rugby talk on a rugby thread

For the record, I contribute to the football forum when it takes my fancy and during the world cup I've spent almost as much time on the rugby forum as I have here

Strictly speaking, you are correct that talk about rugby belongs on the rugby forum - I started this thread more because I wanted to hear what the GOLF community thought about rugby

I'm just as interested to hear what the golf community think about football. This was a kinda off topic thread to keep our thoughts separate from what the rugby regulars thought. I wouldn't even have started it if the golfers with an interest in rugby were major contributors to the rugby forum, but with one or two exceptions we are a pretty insuslar lot here

Don't take my remarks too seriously MPB - I'm not reaching for the red pen or anything like that. I'd just like to hear the opinions of people whose opinion I value, because I "know" them better

No problem with that Davie, I was just bring flippant.

The football has unfairly taken over a bit here so my apologies.
To be honest I was quite enjoying the football with golfers talk. I never contribute to the football board as talking football with football fans is generally a waste of time. Most will tell you black is white if it's in the interests of the team they support

I would agree with MPB.
The rugby thread worked well and I think a golfers football thread would also be interesting. Trouble is it will be mainly about the Welsh and English Premier League

We spend most of the time on the golf course talking about football, rugby, boxing and formula one, (well me and my mates do), so see nothing wrong, with a little digression on these boards.

Come on Wales!!!

Allez les blues.......

Well I have still to find out the score.

We had a power cut in our wee village just after half time and it has only been restored!

Doon the Water wrote:Well I have still to find out the score.

We had a power cut in our wee village just after half time and it has only been restored!

Wee team and honesty 0
Big team with ref in back pocket 1

A decision on a par with Thierry Henri's wrist volley goal and the recent Czech dive at Hampden turned the game on it's head. Shocking really but sadly not uncommon enough in todays sporting arena.

Cheers Jas
When my lights went out 10 mins into the second half. I thought, 'well that's that game over'. Seemingly it was not.

Bit harsh for a red but definately a yellow. He was still lifting him when his hips were past horizontal so he has no excuse.

Unfortunately the referee was swayed by the reaction of the French players. Great tackle, undeserving of a yellow.

No blame attached to the French, but the ref should have at least used the video replay to make sure he was making the right decision.

Pity it was an Irish ref that ended the Welsh dream.

Oh please. It was a definite red card.

Even the (level headed) Welsh fans on the rugby board agree - it's only the whiners and moaners that were complaining

Warburton lifted the Frenchman - he then started a downward movement. After that it became a bit confused - he either accidentally or deliberately dropped him (maybe he realized he'd gone too far, maybe he just slipped). According to all the IRB rules, the referee had no choice. The only "injustice" is that more people get away with it. Rolland should be applauded for not bottling on the decision in such a high profile match

Davie wrote:Oh please. It was a definite red card.

Even the (level headed) Welsh fans on the rugby board agree - it's only the whiners and moaners that were complaining

Warburton lifted the Frenchman - he then started a downward movement. After that it became a bit confused - he either accidentally or deliberately dropped him (maybe he realized he'd gone too far, maybe he just slipped). According to all the IRB rules, the referee had no choice. The only "injustice" is that more people get away with it. Rolland should be applauded for not bottling on the decision in such a high profile match

It was a dangerous tackle, but they need to rethink the rules... a red card for that seems harsh and like so much in rugby it isn't refereed with any consistency.

According to the letter of the law it is a red.

I cant believe how little stick Warburton has got over this. Ultimately it was an incredibly stupid thing to do (especially fromn the skipper) and he left himself wide open to being red carded...and he was. He basically lost his side the semi final, and despite this Stephen Jones in the Times yesterday rated him an 8 for his performance in the game, what a complete plank (Jones that is).

Correct Diggers

All the talk has been about Rolland, and then to a lesser degree, Hook and the rest of the Welsh team and how they should still have won (which they should)

Warburton has almost come out of this like some sort of martyr. I could be persuaded to believe he didn't mean it (though when I watched the slow-mo replays at the time, I thought I detected a distinct intent to spear before he either thought better of it, or lost his grip) - everyone seems to speak very highly though of his "fairness" and it resulted in his suspension being halved. So I could go along with that part, but in the end, as you say, he should bear the brunt of the responsibility

I thought Wales played better after the sending off... seemed to provide them with that extra little bit of motivation. France, on the other hand, seemed to lose their way, and certainly in the second half played like they were trying not to lose (instead of playing to win).

Although a valiant effort from the Welsh, ultimately they lacked a little composure when it really mattered (missed conversion, not going for a drop goal at the end).

Who can say what the result would have been without the red card. It is possible that, against 15 players, France would have run the ball more and scored 2 or 3 tries to win much more convincingly. We will never know.

Wales must be confident of doing well in the 6 nations now.

Ray, I think its fair to say if you asked Wales after 17 minutes if they wanted their skipper sending off they probably would have said no thanks.
You would expect them to have a good 6 Nations, people are talking them up as the team of the future but its funny how rarely that ever really happens.

All the criticism of the referee is very harsh.

He applied the law and sent the bloke off. There were other bad tackles in the Rugby World cup, but instead of criticising Alain Rolland, surely it should be the refs in the other games who are criticised?

Also, it's not helpful of the media people to say things like 'it spoilt the game'. The referee spoilt the game by insisting the players play to the rules?

If the rules don't matter then why doesn't someone pick the ball up and throw it forward like in American Football?

Wales deserved to go out, and if any other country had done that they would have been slated for it.

Stupid tackle, right decision, their own fault, end of.....

Also, it's not helpful of the media people to say things like 'it spoilt the game'. The referee spoilt the game by insisting the players play to the rules?

This is very true. It's something we hear a lot in football, especially from people like Alan Green. And of course managers like to trot that out to defend a poor performance.

Reffing is very inconsitant in team sports, the whole having a judge on a field making snap decisions leads to this its human nature, and causes drama after drama.

This is offcourse what makes golf such a great game- that judgement doesnt come into play!- it really is just you v the course , you v the field, you v the opponent- noone can be aided by the ref- we can get abit of luck however

All the same the welsh are going ott about this. If you spear dive someone there is a chance you can get sent off- its simple.

I would think that he was unlucky to be sent off, as all other similar tackles during the world cup have gone, so to speak unpunished (ok some got a yellow card). Warburton I think was unlucky for doing it in front possible the only one referee out of all of them, that would uphold the letter of the law.

I am not a Welsh fan nor am I a rugby supporter, but their has been some crap on here about the incident, that, to me is more like sour grapes, because Scotland and England played so badly

oldparwin wrote:I would think that he was unlucky to be sent off, as all other similar tackles during the world cup have gone, so to speak unpunished (ok some got a yellow card). Warburton I think was unlucky for doing it in front possible the only one referee out of all of them, that would uphold the letter of the law.

I am not a Welsh fan nor am I a rugby supporter, but their has been some crap on here about the incident, that, to me is more like sour grapes, because Scotland and England played so badly

Taking your 2nd paragraph first, that is total nonsense. If you want to check back to the rugby board you will see I have said right since Saturday morning that if it had been an England player who committed the offense I would be livid - but not with the referee, instead with the player who had acted so stupidly. I fail to see what England and Scotland have to do with a match between Wales and France

On the first point, you'd do better to research a little before making such definitive opinions. As far as other similar tackles that have been commited during the RWC, they have all (without exception) been refered to the citing panel in retrospect - and every one has been increased to a sanction equivalent to a red card offense - and the referees involved have been blamed officially by the IRB for being too lenient. None of those referees involved have been given charge of further games in the RWC.

I am not a rugby fan or know the rules of the game that well, but as I sat through many matches, thought that tackles of that nature were punished by a yellow card only, no one else so far has received a red card, so my conclusion is that he was unlucky to be sent off.

If he had been given a yellow card then the results of the match might have been different, and could have upset many Scotland and England fans

Is the Egg Chasing World Cup still going on.........

oldparwin wrote:I am not a rugby fan or know the rules of the game that well, but as I sat through many matches, thought that tackles of that nature were punished by a yellow card only, no one else so far has received a red card, so my conclusion is that he was unlucky to be sent off.

If he had been given a yellow card then the results of the match might have been different, and could have upset many Scotland and England fans

Well, he only has himself to blame for being the architect of his own bad luck, even if he was unlucky. As for upsetting many England and Scots, I think most people were pulling for Wales as they thing it would have made for a better final.