Scotland - A Post-RWC Thread

[George Carlin]

As all of the streams previously established to discuss the England v Scotland match have now firmly and unanimously descended into flood postings by Welsh fans demanding confirmation that they are now the best Northern Hemisphere side, I thought that I might set out a quiet corner for Scotland fans to speak briefly about what the ramifications of this RWC campaign are likely to be.

Topics (I will lob in by six cents worth) in light of the fact that we will almost certainly be back on a plane tomorrow:

Q1. Do we have a problem with the coaching staff?

A1. I have no problems with Robinson and Steadman. The Scottish team did not look underprepared, unfit or with the wrong tactics. They just seemed unable to execute the plan that they were given. Townsend should gently step aside and let the SRU set about looking for a proper backs coach. The Scottish rugby press should make sure that this happens.

Q2. How will we come to regard this generation of Scottish players?

A2. A combination of unlucky, unsufficiently skilled and unable to keep a cool head when difficult decisions needed to be made.

It has been very difficult, to my mind, to reconcile the exceptional talents of a number of key players in the team (particularly Nathan Hines (Lion, Heineken Cup and Top 14 winner), Kelly Brown (Jeff winner), Chris Cusiter (Lion and Top 14 winner) for example) with the overall mediocrity that we can validly be accused of in our regular team performances. Games at the highest levels are decided on the finest of margins and we have fallen on the wrong side of this too often to avoid proper investigation.

In the professional era, is it true to say that a team is only as good as it's weakest link? Or is it possible to improve as a national side and challenge the best in the world where each aspect of your play is at the very least comparable to your peers but there are one or two truly quality individuals to lift the important aspects of the game when needed?

Is this a blip? Will this come to be regarded as the 'beige' or 'vanilla' generation of Scotland backs? Or the first step on a trudge downhill in terms of a basic backline skillset?

Q3. What changes are necessary to the Scottish game to stop the rot or is a decline inevitable?

A3. Lots has been written and said recently by the new SRU chief executive about how the grassroots must accommodation the needs of the national team and to give full throated support to any restructuring. Practically, will this World Cup failure be able to give the blazered McBumferties in Edinburgh the motivation that they need to make the root and branch change necessary (on the wild assumption that they can correctly identify what that is)?

Q4. What is the immediate future (the next 3 years) likely to hold?

A4. It's always difficult to tell with the new generation of players. A team including a firing Weir, Visser, Jones, Bennett, Gray and Max Evans fills me with hope and there were a few boys becoming men in our pack in the junior world cup this year.

I think that club administration has to improve and stands every chance (or a much better chance) with the new SRU at the helm. The key will be whether to start courting local business and letting wealthy individuals invest and take control of the clubs' staffing and recruiting needs.

Hopefully things will not dip lower before those in charge see that the ship has now sunk below the water line.

[TheGreyGhost]

One of the pundits hit it on the head after the game.

There's a lack of cohesion.

It looks like the scottish players haven't been formally introduced to each other at times.

You get one guy seeing space, kicking into it, or making a break and the ball either bobbles around in the space until the opposition mop it up, or the runner is isolated and turned over.

When the 50/50 ball is available, Scotland are hanging back. They're darting each other little hesitant looks instead of taking the initiative.

Indecision seems to be the team motto. The ball drifts into mid field with no conviction, there is nobody providing options to the carrier, or worrying the defence with off the ball lines.

They don't build pressure because you don't get the forwards and backs working in a complimentary manner.

It's just fling it wide and hope, or this obsession with kicking the ball away.

Early in the first half today, Scotland had engineered a three man overlap. Instead of just running straight, drawing and passing and putting the man in the corner (as England did to their credit late on), Scotland tried a ridiculous 1% cross field bomb.

If I was the coach, I'd tied the guys together at the wrists with rope for a week and make them uncomfortably suffocated in each other's presence until they knew each other's bowel rythms and the smell of each other's sweat.

They have athletic forwards, powerful scrummages and quick backs with ball skills, and a guy who can kick the points as well as any one in world rugby.

As a unit they don't gell.

Today again, as in the Argentina game they built a winning lead. Then from the very restart, nobody even competes for the ball, tackles start dropping off and the work rate disappears. There's no communication and their seems to be no confidence or belief. It seems that once they've made a good account of themselves, they give up.

[A World Cup and 3 Finals]

Considering Scotland has 2 club sides to choose from and the subsequent lack of talent to choose from, they punch well above their weight and the fans should expect no more of them, the occasional spoiling victory against better sides but not much to show for it.

Until the Scottish public can regain their passion for rugby at the expense of drearly soccer, things will not change for the better. A real shame!

[Cowshot]

I think the first and most important steps have already been taken with the shakeup of the SRU, at whose door I put most of the problems since professionalism, and the appointment of a coach who whatever his limitations with England, by common consent has done good work with Scotland. This Scotland side is a vast improvement on its immediate predecessors.

There is a more immediate problem with the lack of cutting edge. Scottish sides in the past have created the sort of chances where Foden just got a hand on the ball and then De Luca (?) knocked on with the line at his mercy where Tony Stanger outreached Guscott and scored. I think that's a confidence thing as much as anything else.

In short, I think it's more a "keep going" situation than a "change everything" one.

[alive555]

the only thing which is really going to be effective is radically increasing playing numbers. Not by 5pc per year but by 100pc per year.
They all teach football in schools why not rugby ? So that's where they need to focus. More players = better players = more success = more support = ability to support more than 2 teams (should have 4 teams as min)
That will take 5 yrs to see any pay off so might as well start now.
Talking about shortcomings of current squad is fruitless .
Not enough players!
If we had similar numbers to other of the 6nations I'd bet we would be a very serious team .

[aitchw]

What the hell happened to all those hotbeds of borders rugby? Melrose, Jed Forest, Gala, Hawick, all those names I knew as a youngster. It seems to me that the dream of creating two top table 'club' sides destroyed the grass roots and the SRU has been blinded by the move to the pro game. They need to to wake up. I don't know enough about the shake up in the SRU but I miss the best of Scottish rugby from years ago when you lot played like NH ABs. The home nations need all it's teams to be playing well for the game to develop and despite being English I hope you start bringing some new players through soon. Is there an academy structure and scouts to bring the young blood through? If not you need one. For what it's worth I think you could (and have in the past) do worse than to keep AR. He will sweat blood in your cause. You do need to to sack Townsend, he's a waste of space.

[Biltong]

John Allen, ex Scottish hooker was saying this afternoon on supersport the scotland rugby Union made a big mistake when professionalism was introduced by going for only two regional teams, he believes they should have had the clubs go professional and have somewhere between 10-12 professional clubs, it would have given them a broader selection base for intrnational players.

He reckons if scotland do not go back to that they will fall further behind as other countries like russia already have 8 professional teams and are likely to improve in the future.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

George,
spot on. We need to bring on the new fellas for the 6Ns. Townsend has to get his jotters and soon. Sean Lineen must get that role with a view to him replacing Robinson.
Very plucky today but we are oot and that says it all.

PS Murray, Ford and Jacobsen own those English front row diddies !! Who is that beardy Muppet - total knob. And as for coke heid !

[R!skysports]

Front row played well. gray fnally strted to play well agian and blair looked good. vernon also looked good.

[racingnut]

Can somebody please tell me why Scotland only wake from their three quarter coma when they play England? If they played every Test with the intensity and verve that they showed ,particularly in the first half,then they would win more often than not.Having spent 12 days out of every 14 working in Scotland for the last three years then i can almost prempt the answer but im sick to death of hearing that same old Stirling,Falkirk,Bannockburn,Braveheart,supressed nation rubbish.You played some good stuff but until you get the monkey off your back regarding the "Auld Enemy" then you are going to challenge for nothing but wooden spoons and you are better than that.

[dubh_linn]

Lads i know youre dissapointed but youvjust very narrowly lst two matches....maybe change your backs coach butvi would keep robinson...reinvent the borders team sovyou have more scottish players being developed and take it from there.....i was gutted you lost today ...i thought your forwards were great esp first half...bad luck...no need for knee jerk reactions

[Shifty]

Q1. Do we have a problem with the coaching staff?
Yes, they are not getting the players, playing to their potential, you don't score tries and are not playing anywhere near the level you should be. Scraping past teams full of players in the lower French divisions, then suddenly taking heart because your players flung themselves at the English as if it was the last thing they were going to do on Earth, is not the way to think. Robinson was exposed as a poor coach when he was in charge of England, and is being ruthlessly exposed as Scotlands coach. He was always going to get a lucky win somewhere and that was in 2010 against South Africa. Why do Scottish fans think trying to avoid a wooden spoon and whitewash by beating Italy every year is a good thing?

Q2. How will we come to regard this generation of Scottish players?
Underachievers, players who have lowered the bar of what is expected of a Scottish international player. You have the same week to week competition as Ireland and Wales and just the same oppertunities, but Scotland has proven itself mentally inferior to Welsh and Irish players season after season.

Q3. What changes are necessary to the Scottish game to stop the rot or is a decline inevitable?
Id speak to Ireland and Wales about making a semi pro league below Rabo Direct level, the Scottish league does not prepare players for the step up to regional rugby. Up to 4 Semi Pro could be created for it, Aberdeen, Dundee, Melrose would be obvious areas to try and promote a semi pro team.
The 2 Professional teams need not to sign non Scottish players.

Q4. What is the immediate future (the next 3 years) likely to hold?
Probably 3 wooden spoons, as the Italian teams get to grip with the enhanced competition of the Rabo direct and their players get used to playing at better standards, throw in a few stars playing in France and Scotland become 6 Nations whipping boys.

[doctornickolas]

It was all well and good in the amateur era with those Borders clubs mentioned but in the pro era it all comes down to that dirty word 'money'.

Or in Scotland's case the lack of it. With the numbes that come through the gates for District and even International matches they can barely support the 2 teams they have got.

I think Scotland needs 4 teams with maybe an Aberdeen based team and a borders team but there simply is not the funds to do that.

I don't know what the answer is.

What would the talk be if Scotland had held on to their 9 point lead ??

[Redrage]

I would like to see the SRU fund or co-fund an Exiles team, enter the RaboDirect-Pro or the GP. If they were based in London they could pull in a reasonable crowd of exiled Scots. The problem with more pro teams in situ is that nobody goes to watch the current teams. That is the reason the North (Caly) and Borders teams were binned. They were not profitable but we can all see 2 is not enough.

If we had maintained out 9 point lead, the talk would be the same. It would only have papered over the cracks. We'd have been routed by the ABs in the QF. We need more competition to produce better quality players. Guys like Dan Parks shouldn't have over 50 caps, Graeme Morrison shouldn't be a shoe in to start at 12. Nick De Luca should be able to catch a ball when it matters. We have made small strides under Robinson, they could have been bigger if he had more to work with.

I hope Lineen does not take over as manager - he is a big fan of Morrison. I hope to see little of him from now on. I hope Lamont doesn't get another game on the wing, he is too slow and is a better option at 12 or 13 for the time being. Paterson's time is probably up too, although I can see him cling on at 15 for another 6N or two yet. Ansbro, Evans, Danielli and Visser (perhaps even Walker too if given the right service) are better finishers than S. Lamont and CP, and it is only a matter of time before Thompson or R. Lamont close the door at fullback. I think Laidlaw needs to come in at scrum half or stand off, he needs to be tested at international level as he is a very good player at RaboDirect-Pro level and we are short on numbers at stand off in particular.

[George Carlin]

David Ferguson sums up my thoughts quite well in the Scotsman on Sunday:

"The current Scotland squad have earned respect among their peers for being more consistent and competitive, and that is credit to the work of the players and coaches, but they are still not viewed as winners, nor try-scorers. They are no worse than the teams of 2007 and 2003 who did reach the quarter-finals and arguably had it easier, but competing on the world stage is becoming tougher.

And yet with a clever game-plan, concentration, good skills and unstinting commitment to putting bodies on the line Scotland came incredibly close to pulling off what would have been a shock result in Auckland last night. That was a Scotland team playing very close to its optimum and the reality is that that is not quite good enough for World Cup quarter-finals any more."

[funnyExiledScot]

I agree with that GC. This side is certainly better than Hadden's team in 2007, and would in my opinion have qualified from any other group, with perhaps a question mark on the Welsh group.

Consistent and competitive is right, but also short of play makers and handling skills to compete with the top sides. Watching Wales and Ireland this morning rammed home how limited our skill levels are. Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times made the right point, Sean Lamont should have been at 12 throughout the tournament for us, allowing more exciting runners into the back three.

I think we can build on this tournament in some cases though. The front row was good, although we need to find back-up to Chunk, and Murray Low needs to rediscover himself. The second row was excellent, and even if Hines does retire, in Hamilton, Gray and Kellock we have three excellent options, and Fraser MacKenzie at Sale will become another, as well as the emergence of the very promising Gilchrist at Edinburgh. Back was also good, although I think we need Beattie back on top form at 8. We lacked his big telling ball carries in my view, despite both Brown and Vernon doing a decent enough job at 8 at times.

I'm hugely disappointed not to get to the QF, but there are some areas where we were good. Finding a playmaker in the midfield is now a key task, and getting the new breed like Weir and Hunter performing well in club rugby also key.

Encouraging that Edinburgh and Glasgow both won against the Blues and Munster, although I'm still angry they lost last weekend to the Italian sides. As a general comment, I'm seeing very promising individuals coming through at the clubs, but what we need is to build collectives and units, in the same way the Irish do and continue to do. That's how we need to develop the sort of understandings that translate into tries at international level.

[offload]

The SRU are amongst the most backward of any professional country and it's definately holding Scotttish rugby back whilst other nations are improving . Having said that, the passion for rugby in Scotland seems to only exist on the fringe - support is small and the national team will contune to struggle unless the sport can be elevated.

The current team are perhaps short of three or four players that could have got them to the quarters. It's a shame they won't be lining up to face NZ.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Speaking as someone who was at the Edinburgh game, it was a joy to see matt Scott turning out such a great performance. Denton too looked very dangerous. JT also looked much more comfortable at full back. IMO Paterson may struggle to displace him. He came into the line well and read the game like an open book all match long and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time in support running.

[Imperialbigdave]

As has been said, We have a pack that can win games time and again (as long as they stop letting restarts go unchallenged ). Swap Barclay for Rennie, and Hamilton for Kellock, throw in Beattie, Denton, or hopefully Mcinally or Wilson in a season or two, and youve got everything you need in your pack.

What doesnt help the pack though, is bringing obviously inferior players on at 60 minutes, EVERY GAME. Dickinson is not up to international standard. He has had 4 years to sort out his scrummaging, and hasnt done it. He must go. Ryan Grant, Traynor or Niven (i forget if hes a loosie or tighty), should be brought in, with Grant being the most likely, although Traynor has been capped. Likewise Dougie Hall should only ever be on a pitch to paint the lines. How such a mediocre player has been in the fold since 2003 is beyond me. With Andy Kelly at Edinburgh, and Fergus Thompson at Glasgow (I know he was injured), we had better quality hookers who couldve gone.

Now to the backs...

Laidlaw must come in for the 6N. Hes the on form scrumhalf and place kicker in Scotland, not to mention hes a leader. The time has surely also come for Duncan Weir to step up. I really want to see him and Jackson on the field at the same time, swapping between roles to add some unpredictability to our attack. Barring injury, there is surely no reason Dan Parks should ever wear a scotland shirt again. His impatience when in opposition territory is unbelieveable.

At 12, we should be looking at either Jackson, Weir, King or Lamont for the immediate future, although Leonard is seen as primarily a 12, and a promising one at that. With only one appearance for Edinburgh though, ill be realistic and say not just now.

13. Ansbro. Even as one of Ben Cairns' biggest fans, i will say that there is no other centre even close to Ansbro at the moment.

Wings. While Danielli certainly offered the most threat of any Scotland player this tournament, his brainfarts can get the better of him, and is known for people forgetting that he was even on the pitch at times. Maybe stick with him and see how he does under a new direction. Max Evans is the obvious choice for the other berth, but he needs support, if not to continue his breaks, at least to give him protection when he gets brought down, as he gets turned over far too easily.

at Fullback, Ramont is first choice for me. I dont really need to explain why. While he can get beat one on one easier than Paterson, He can do the same to the opposition, except with 3 players hanging off him. If Jim Thompson can regain the form that saw him tour argentina, and displace Tom Brown, I wouldnt mind seeing him there.

So my ideal Backline for the 6N would be:

9.Laidlaw
10. Jackson
12. King/Lamont
13. Ansbro
11 and 14. Danielli and Evans
15. Ramont

although depending on just how much things get shaken up (read: will Townsend get told to sling his hook?), I wouldnt mind seeing:

9. Laidlaw
10. Jackson
12. Weir
13. Ansbro
11 and 14. Lee Jones and Max Evans
15. Ramont or Thompson


This all comes down to how radical an overhaul is performed between now and 6N time. If Townsend goes, and a proven backs coach comes in, with a track record of coaching good attacking teams, then we may see a different scotland. If not, then expect more of the same sirge that weve been served up for years now.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

1. Coaching staff

Think we've probably gone as far as we can with Townsend. Either the players aren't listening or he's not getting his message across. Robbo and Steadman have both done good jobs and must be kept. Would take a look at Chick Chalmers for the vacant attack role - he does wonders with Melrose, despite them losing players to the pro teams every year

2. Current crop

This group of players is better than the 2007 crew and quite a bit ahead of the 2003 bunch. Suspect that well lose a couple to retirement, and there are a couple that must never be allowed to pull on the navy shirt again.

3. Changes

The grassroots game - sensible changes to the league structure are in progress. Decent pro teams - are slowly being given greater independence, esp on financial side, and can only get better. Would still like a third side, but timing will be everything. Recent changes at the SRU are all positive

4. The next 3 years

I'm hopeful that we're well past the nadir of the Scottish game. Slow progress is the most likely outcome, we've got a long way to go to catch up with the other tier 1 nations, but with Mighty Mouse at the top, I'm full of hope. Lots of areas to work on, but the powers that be appear to be acknowledging all those and work has begun.

Think there's a good crop of players coming thru, Denton, Harley, Grant, Wilson, Gilchrist, Leonard, Scott, Weir, etc., and if we can successfully develop their talent, I'm feeling fairly optimistic.

[aitchw]

Is that Tom Denton at Carnegie? If so yes, he's not a bad player. I know you have an academy structure but no idea how well it's working. You need to go hunting through the English clubs and academies. Joe Ansbro, it was Saints academy that spotted him and look what you got from that! Glad to hear that SRU is takng notice and making changes and plans. Got to grudgingly acknowledge that Gatts going with a group of youngsters for Wales is bearing fruit, could work for you too.

[Imperialbigdave]

Is that Tom Denton at Carnegie? If so yes, he's not a bad player. I know you have an academy structure but no idea how well it's working. You need to go hunting through the English clubs and academies. Joe Ansbro, it was Saints academy that spotted him and look what you got from that! Glad to hear that SRU is takng notice and making changes and plans. Got to grudgingly acknowledge that Gatts going with a group of youngsters for Wales is bearing fruit, could work for you too.

not quite, its Dave Denton at Edinburgh. Eigthman whos already been capped. Hard as nails.

[InjuredYetAgain]

UI have to agree with ASBO - Townsend has taken the team as far as he can so time fro Chalmers to step up.
My biggest concern, though, is our lack of decisioon-making which iosn't somethimng you can really teach as teh game is played so quickly these days. Against the Argies, we had a cpoupel fo good chances in the first half to ship the ball quickly to Lamont on the wing where he had buckets of room but the centres took the wrong decision both times.
I don't know what comes first; (a) let's see who retires and who is left or (b) let's have a new start and risk not doing too well (again) in the 6N but leave out the likes of Hines, possibly Jacobsen etc who aren't going to be around for too much longer

[ryan86]

One landmark we need to aim for is making sure we are at least 8th when the next groups are drawn. If think this might be in 2013. We were 9th this time I believe and probably got the best chance to progress (though looking at the French, being put in that group may have not been so bad)

If we draw the odd team out (I believe there's 9 top teams, still waiting for the Italians to reach that level), that's the luck of the draw, but we also to get ourselves into the position that we've at least got a chance of the game against someone like Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Italy being the match for 2nd v 3rd, not against Ireland, France etc.

[Imperialbigdave]

One landmark we need to aim for is making sure we are at least 8th when the next groups are drawn. If think this might be in 2013. We were 9th this time I believe and probably got the best chance to progress (though looking at the French, being put in that group may have not been so bad)

If we draw the odd team out (I believe there's 9 top teams, still waiting for the Italians to reach that level), that's the luck of the draw, but we also to get ourselves into the position that we've at least got a chance of the game against someone like Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Italy being the match for 2nd v 3rd, not against Ireland, France etc.

Will it not be next year? Im sure our seeding was decided after the argie tour in 08?

[ryan86]

Whenever it takes place, the actual point that we need to strive to be 8th at worst in the rankings remains central.

[Redrage]

Whenever it takes place, the actual point that we need to strive to be 8th at worst in the rankings remains central.

Is it that big a deal, if we are 8th then Argentina will be 9th, we can still end up in the same boat. If other teams like Samoa keep improving then we will have them to beat too. The most important thing is that we improve, we'll still have to beat these teams if we are higher up the rankings.

[ryan86]

Drawing Argentina from "Pot 3" is the luck of the draw. You've put yourself in the higher pot and you get a toughie from the pot below you, that happens.

But wouldn't rather be choosing whether it was Argentina, Samoa, Italy or Tonga you were hypothetically fighting for 2nd with rather than Ireland, Wales, France, Argentina or even Australia.

[emack2]

Scotland have had the best of most games but lacked the killer punch.
There game was too dependent on goal kicks,conditions in most of there games were bad.
But it seemed especially against Argentina once they got a few points ahead,.They were happy to just close out the game instead of tryin to increase it.
One jarring note,and this applies to all the non-qualifiers it seems an undecent haste to get them back home.
It would have been a nice touch for the players /management to stay in the
NZ and enjoy the rest of the RWC[if they wished too.]

[Redrage]

Drawing Argentina from "Pot 3" is the luck of the draw. You've put yourself in the higher pot and you get a toughie from the pot below you, that happens.

But wouldn't rather be choosing whether it was Argentina, Samoa, Italy or Tonga you were hypothetically fighting for 2nd with rather than Ireland, Wales, France, Argentina or even Australia.

I see your point, but I would rather we were talking abut finishing 1st in the group due to ongoing improvement than hoping for a kind draw. Ongoing improvement would take care of our ranking anyway. There is no point being in Pot 2 if we can't beat the pot 3 teams.

[Comfort]

The biggest problem is the lack of tries. and to me that is literally it.

forwards - gnarled and consistent. will provide a steady platform at their worst.
backs - defensively solid but lacking creativity or, a little lightweight defensively and still lacking creativity. either way you go there doesnt seem to be tries coming in. a single dutchman will only do so much for this.

Can anyone give me some names of any upcoming creative inside centres?

[Scot Abroad]

The biggest problem is the lack of tries. and to me that is literally it.

forwards - gnarled and consistent. will provide a steady platform at their worst.
backs - defensively solid but lacking creativity or, a little lightweight defensively and still lacking creativity. either way you go there doesnt seem to be tries coming in. a single dutchman will only do so much for this.

This is exactly our problem. The below table doesn't make good reading! Opponents aside, we scored half as many tries as Japan and Russia! If we are to close the gap on the rest of the six nations then we must look at ways to solve this problem. Townsend must step down and I agree that Lineen should be taking his place.

PTS TRS
New Zealand 240 36
Australia 173 25
Wales 180 23
South Africa 166 21
England 137 18
Ireland 135 15
France 124 13
Italy 92 13
Samoa 91 10
Argentina 90 10
Canada 82 9
Japan 69 8
Russia 57 8
Tonga 80 7
Fiji 59 7
Namibia 44 5
Scotland 73 4
USA 38 4
Georgia 48 3
Romania 44 3

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

UI have to agree with ASBO - Townsend has taken the team as far as he can so time fro Chalmers to step up.
My biggest concern, though, is our lack of decisioon-making which iosn't somethimng you can really teach as teh game is played so quickly these days. Against the Argies, we had a cpoupel fo good chances in the first half to ship the ball quickly to Lamont on the wing where he had buckets of room but the centres took the wrong decision both times.
I don't know what comes first; (a) let's see who retires and who is left or (b) let's have a new start and risk not doing too well (again) in the 6N but leave out the likes of Hines, possibly Jacobsen etc who aren't going to be around for too much longer

On second thoughts I'd make this a competitive piece of recruitment, rather than simply a shoo-in for the 'appropriate' candidate. So in addition to having Chalmers on the short list, I'd like to see Currie's Ali Donaldson on there, and a couple of other talented backs coaches (from anywhere in the world - it's a professional game now, so Scots is not a necessary qualification)

[Imperialbigdave]

The biggest problem is the lack of tries. and to me that is literally it.

forwards - gnarled and consistent. will provide a steady platform at their worst.
backs - defensively solid but lacking creativity or, a little lightweight defensively and still lacking creativity. either way you go there doesnt seem to be tries coming in. a single dutchman will only do so much for this.

Can anyone give me some names of any upcoming creative inside centres?

Harry Leonard at Edinburgh, although hes only made one magners appearance so far. The widely put forward suggestion atm is a midfield of Jackson and Weir, with neither player necessarily tied down into 10 or 12.

[Scot Abroad]

Weir is only 5'8", which in my mind is way too small to play 12. Plus if that was the case then both would have to get game time at inside centre, which is unlikely if Morrison is fit.

[alive555]

What's Matt Scott like at Edinburgh ? In a couple of years bennet at clermont will prob be in.....

Comments on these 2 ?

[Imperialbigdave]

Weir is only 5'8", which in my mind is way too small to play 12. Plus if that was the case then both would have to get game time at inside centre, which is unlikely if Morrison is fit.

Im sorry, but this whole "you must be a massive bruiser to play 12" thing is ridiculous. Look at Giteau or Barnes for australia, both brilliant 12's, neither of them any bigger than Weir. We have to start looking for skill over size, as we have more than enough beef in our backline.

[Scot Abroad]

While I would love a skillful 10/12 combination, the fact remains that the majority of coaches still look for size at 12. Especially from a defensive point of view. I would feel more confident having a bit of size there.

[George Carlin]

Weir is only 5'8", which in my mind is way too small to play 12. Plus if that was the case then both would have to get game time at inside centre, which is unlikely if Morrison is fit.

Im sorry, but this whole "you must be a massive bruiser to play 12" thing is ridiculous. Look at Giteau or Barnes for australia, both brilliant 12's, neither of them any bigger than Weir. We have to start looking for skill over size, as we have more than enough beef in our backline.

Agreed Dave - let's look to strength and skills rather than size. Philippe Sella was only 5'10", but he could hit like a train and is one of the top three 12's of all time (Mike Gibson and Tim Horan being my other two).

Weir would be an excellent 12. He's very confident, strong, quick and has no problems with taking first contact at all. I've thought about him as a proper footballing 12 for a long time.

But ignore me, I'm still p!ssed off that we let Frazier Climo go back to Taranaki - he's the best 10 I saw for at least five years.

[Glas a du]

Get into Glasgow. Get kids there to play Rugby.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Weir is only 5'8", which in my mind is way too small to play 12. Plus if that was the case then both would have to get game time at inside centre, which is unlikely if Morrison is fit.

Im sorry, but this whole "you must be a massive bruiser to play 12" thing is ridiculous. Look at Giteau or Barnes for australia, both brilliant 12's, neither of them any bigger than Weir. We have to start looking for skill over size, as we have more than enough beef in our backline.

Agreed Dave - let's look to strength and skills rather than size. Philippe Sella was only 5'10", but he could hit like a train and is one of the top three 12's of all time (Mike Gibson and Tim Horan being my other two).

Weir would be an excellent 12. He's very confident, strong, quick and has no problems with taking first contact at all. I've thought about him as a proper footballing 12 for a long time.

But ignore me, I'm still p!ssed off that we let Frazier Climo go back to Taranaki - he's the best 10 I saw for at least five years.

Isn't Bennett about 6'2"? He has the stature of a modern IC and has still to bulk out, but he also has the skills which is what we have been lacking.

This statistics seemed hugely telling/depressing:

England:
Points: 137, Time in opponents 22: 1411 seconds
Points per minute in opponents 22: 5.83

Argentina:
Points: 90, Time in opponents 22: 2001 seconds
Points per minute in opponents 22: 2.70

Scotland:
Points: 73, Time in opponents 22: 2013 seconds
Points per minute in opponents 22: 2.18

Georgia:
Points: 48, Time in opponents 22: 996 seconds
Points per minute in opponents 22: 2.89

Romania:
Points: 44, Time in opponents 22: 1381 seconds
Points per minute in opponents 22: 1.91

There's no disputing that we have a huge problem in converting try-scoring chances - I honestly believe that if we can fix that, then we are not so far away than the rest of the NH

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

And from the BBC: "The 2012 Six Nations Championship will be an opportunity for Scotland to show improvement.

The omens are not good: Scotland's tournament record under Andy Robinson does not make for light reading: one win outside the World Cup this year; one win last year and now out of the 2011 Rugby World Cup.

Ironically, Scotland's first game in the 2012 Six Nations will be against England at Murrayfield.

One of the major criticisms of the team's performance has focussed on their inability to score tries.

Scotland did not register a touch down in the games between Georgia, Argentina or England.

Tries do not necessarily win matches but they do make it a hell of a lot easier."

[George Carlin]

And from the BBC: "The 2012 Six Nations Championship will be an opportunity for Scotland to show improvement.

The omens are not good: Scotland's tournament record under Andy Robinson does not make for light reading: one win outside the World Cup this year; one win last year and now out of the 2011 Rugby World Cup.

Ironically, Scotland's first game in the 2012 Six Nations will be against England at Murrayfield.

One of the major criticisms of the team's performance has focussed on their inability to score tries.

Scotland did not register a touch down in the games between Georgia, Argentina or England.

Tries do not necessarily win matches but they do make it a hell of a lot easier."

SchlongAs - typically, facile, lazy BBC journalism.
Six lines you can write without knowing anything whatsoever.

[Glas a du]

Beat England in Murrayfield and you're on for the Grand Slam.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Beat England in Murrayfield and you're on for the Grand Slam.

Ha, ha, yes, that is our usual reaction!

Some interesting stuff in the Herald's interview with Dodson: Kevin Ferrie chats to SRU Chief Exec

[RuggerRadge2611]

Well, this is my first “proper” post since our exit from the world cup. I deliberately posted short token “feel good” posts to try and brighten up the miserable weekend we have had. I suppose the big question is, will Scotland and the SRU in general have learned more from being sent home tae think again? Or would Scottish rugby have been better served by the deception that we were good enough to make it into the QF. I’ll come out and say it, I reckon the better teams made it through. Sure we can argue we were unlucky or played better etc. The uncomfortable truth however comes from the fact we scored 4 tries.

4 tries.

4 tries.

Sorry to repeat but hopefully the SRU and the coaching staff can look at that fact and realise not only is it unacceptable but massive changes need to be executed or we’ll be embarrassing ourselves in the spring when the 6N comes about.

So after browsing the Scottish broadsheets via the internet it seems the shocking but unsurprising exit from the world cup has woken some of the blazers at EH12 up and things fans have been calling for for months seem to be getting carried out.

Smaller playing grounds for Glasgow and Edinburgh seem to becoming reality with The Warriors moving to Scotstoun and Edinburgh searching for a new ground to leave behind the cathedral that is Murrayfield, great venue but not for a few thousand spectators.

changing grounds?

Publicity now seems to be high priority, again something fans here and on the old 606 have been calling for since Hadden was in charge. This publicity seems to be targeting school rugby. A great Idea IMO get them interested in the honour, respect and physicality of rugby at a young age instead of the hatred and bigotry associated with Scottish Football. However this cuts both ways, Scotland need to find the flair and skills to display at the highest level to interest the youngsters, this should start in the 6N.

Rugby in schools

What do we want in terms of the coaching setup? As FES said earlier on either what Townsend is coaching is either not working or not getting through to the players and to be honest we are now the laughing stock of the entire rugby world. We are dominating possession, territory and have a powerful set piece, so why can’t we score tries. Whilst dissecting the Argentina game we came to the conclusion that it must have something to do with Morrison. However he was not playing against England and sadly Jackson’s match was far too short.

We are missing a vital cog in this machine and it’s stalling when it gets meters from the try line. Coaching is a problem and to be honest this needs to be fixed ASAP. The players will come. Sean Lamont does an admirable job but he is not an inside centre and we are kidding ourselves if we think he is. It is to the youngsters at Glasgow and Edinburgh that we should be looking to. Cairns would be one to give a shot to, Nick De Luca is a player I really like and feel could do very well for Scotland as he gets more test match experience, Joe Ansbro for London Irish is a fantastic player too. We also need to try the likes of Matt Scott, Grieg Laidlaw, Lee Jones, Jim Thompson, Duncan Weir and Stuart Hogg. Players who have impressed at club level who are still young enough to have the cockiness of youth to bring into the back line and get it trying new things.

I know FunnyExiledScot is one who resists trying new “untested” players but when Jackson was first brought into the test scene I can remember you were very hesitant and concerned about him getting his start at 10, but now look how well he has matured into the role and is arguably the first name on most peoples’ team sheets.

Wales have no problem trying youngsters who are performing well at club level, AR should take a chance on some of these lads. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. We know plan A and plan B are not working, plan C anyone?

[Scot Abroad]

One thing I've always wanted to see was more kids at Glasgow and Edinburgh games. Why not give free tickets to schools? Increase the crowds and get some kids interested in trying the sport. The cost would be minimal as the games are never sell outs. The teams have little to lose and everything to gain. Also, some form of official SRU coaching course should be made compulsory for anyone who wants to be involved in school rugby. That way we can make sure that the teachers at least know what they're doing and aren't just making the kids play a game when they should be actually coaching them.

[George Carlin]

We are missing a vital cog in this machine and it’s stalling when it gets meters from the try line. Coaching is a problem and to be honest this needs to be fixed ASAP. The players will come. Sean Lamont does an admirable job but he is not an inside centre and we are kidding ourselves if we think he is. It is to the youngsters at Glasgow and Edinburgh that we should be looking to. Cairns would be one to give a shot to, Nick De Luca is a player I really like and feel could do very well for Scotland as he gets more test match experience, Joe Ansbro for London Irish is a fantastic player too. We also need to try the likes of Matt Scott, Grieg Laidlaw, Lee Jones, Jim Thompson, Duncan Weir and Stuart Hogg.

Radge - good to hear from you.

But you forget his Timness himself, the man who shalt be known in the annals of SRU history from June 2012 as simply VISSER.

[Imperialbigdave]

We are missing a vital cog in this machine and it’s stalling when it gets meters from the try line. Coaching is a problem and to be honest this needs to be fixed ASAP. The players will come. Sean Lamont does an admirable job but he is not an inside centre and we are kidding ourselves if we think he is. It is to the youngsters at Glasgow and Edinburgh that we should be looking to. Cairns would be one to give a shot to, Nick De Luca is a player I really like and feel could do very well for Scotland as he gets more test match experience, Joe Ansbro for London Irish is a fantastic player too. We also need to try the likes of Matt Scott, Grieg Laidlaw, Lee Jones, Jim Thompson, Duncan Weir and Stuart Hogg.

Radge - good to hear from you.

But you forget his Timness himself, the man who shalt be known in the annals of SRU history from June 2012 as simply VISSER.

Visser can only do so much, he has the benefit of playing in an edinburgh team who for all their faults, arent short on flair. I just have a horrible feeling that our game plan at international level will make a mockery of his talent.

[funnyExiledScot]

I know FunnyExiledScot is one who resists trying new “untested” players but when Jackson was first brought into the test scene I can remember you were very hesitant and concerned about him getting his start at 10, but now look how well he has matured into the role and is arguably the first name on most peoples’ team sheets.

Wales have no problem trying youngsters who are performing well at club level, AR should take a chance on some of these lads. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. We know plan A and plan B are not working, plan C anyone?

Hang-on, you're confusing a couple of things here. I am absolutely in favour of picking players playing well at club level. 100% behind that. It's on that basis that Gatland has got the selections of Charteris, Lydiate, Warburton, Priestland, Scott Williams and George North so spot on. He basically asked the key question: were I looking at Welsh players for the first time, and basing judgements on club form, who would I pick? That's exactly what I'm in favour of and suggest that Robinson does.

It's too early to make definitive statements as to who those form players will be for the next 6 Nations, but Greg Laidlaw should certainly be pencilled in, as should Rob Harley and Lee Jones. If Stuart Hogg continues playing as well as he has so far, then I see no reason not to include him as well, similarly Jim Thompson. Players like Rory Lamont and CP should be guaranteed nothing more than the same opportunity to win a place in the squad for the next 6 Nations.

Where I do draw the line is picking players who are NOT playing particularly well at club level, simply because they are young and that somehow they might improve in the arena of international rugby. There have been times in the past where calls have been made for Jackson and Weir when both were playing utter tosh at Glasgow, missing kicks and bottling under pressure. Young kids playing badly. Yet one little flash in an otherwise poor performance and posters were purring. I'm not that fickle. Pick on merit and always on merit. Yes, Jackson got promoted before his time, but frankly there was no-one else. He's certainly not been an unqualified success, but he has shown some improvement and against Argentina (before he was wrongly hauled off) he showed some signs of maturing (despite not actually running a lot of ball, making many breaks or creating an awful lot).

I think selection for the next 6 Nations will in practice depend on who retires. I'm guessing Hines and Parks will go, but perhaps CP as well. That probably means Gilchrist or McKenzie come in as the 4th lock, and Weir and either Hogg/Thompson come in as well.

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