Just one change for England

I am loath to criticise MJ as he knows far more about what it takes to succeed in international rugby than I do, and unless the likes of Ian McGeechan lurk on here he knows more than you as well.

BUT

It seems he has decided that only making the enforced change of Cueto in for Armitage is the best way to beat France. This palpably ignores clear evidence that the 8/9/10 axis is not working.

Wilkinson plays too deep and offers very little communication to his half back partner, made worse by moving deeper without warning. This has caused Youngs (who is still inexperienced) all sorts of problems, compunded by Haskell's inexperience at No8 and failure to contol the ball at scrums.

If Youngs plays surely he should be partnered by Flood, and if Wilko plays he woudl go better with Wigglesworth?

Agreed.

It is probably a case of the lesser of two evils, from what i understand quite a number of posters on here don't seem to think wiggleworth is in good form?

biltongbek Wigglesworth helped England score the winning try against Scotland. Both scrum halves have struggled because their packs have not been giving them good ball to work with.

It is truly idiotic of MJ if this is his actual side.

3 combos would have made infinitely more sense

Youngs - Flood

Wigglesworth - Wilkinson

Wigglesworth - Flood.

MJ happens to pick the worst one by some way. Brilliant!

Why are Stevens and Moody being picked again? Moody should be booted out of the 22, Stevens relegated to the bench.

Biltong, its nmore they just dont think our 3rd choice player is that good...many didnt even think he shouldve been in the squad at all.

The point is England have been ta their best when attacking, and Flood Youngs are teh attachking options. Wigglesworth Wilko seems to stick to the conservative gameplan that consistently sees them make heavy weather of teams they should be beating easily ( im not sayiong that france are one mind)
England dont have the pack to play like they did in 2003/2007. Trying to scrape through games by keeping the scoreboard ticking over seemed to be a thing of the past but England have shrunk back scared of themsleves.

The game against Scotland saw them kicking more than any previous game in the torunemanet, the selection of a kicking scrum half and a FH who cant pass or run very well suggests that trend will continue, wasting the running talents of England 11/13/14/15 which is their strongest area.


Tindalls continued inclussion must be really peeing off the far more professional and better pewrforming Hape, even if he is a Kiwi.

Forgot about Stevens, its obviously that Saracens bias in his selection policy again eh beshocked

Peter if I remember correctly the stats for england in the pool rounds were 73 or so kicks which is very good, and I agree with you on tindall, to me he just seems slow and not capable of distributing ball.

MJ is probably in the same mould as PDV in believing a conservative game plan will work in the knock out rounds.

biltongbek wrote:Peter if I remember correctly the stats for england in the pool rounds were 73 or so kicks which is very good, and I agree with you on tindall, to me he just seems slow and not capable of distributing ball.

MJ is probably in the same mould as PDV in believing a conservative game plan will work in the knock out rounds.

To be fair its worked for England in the last two tournaments and SA in the last one, but the ways the alws are now and where Englands strenghths lie I dont buy it for them. SA maybe, they are a tough side and have shown they can defend the try line well. Whilst England have only conceeded one try I dont see them being able to hold out teams from here on...they will have to keep scoring themselves as well, more than just converting every third visist to the 22 into a dropped goal after Wilko misses two.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I wouldn't pick Stevens to start. Leave him on the bench.

Youngs was at his attacking best against Scotland. No wait no he wasn't. Both him and Wilkinson were absolutely £$%^. Guess what England will pick both again! Yes!

Youngs is still milking the performance against Argentina where he had an armchair ride. The England forwards were on top when he came on.The Argentinians were knackered and Youngs took all the glory.

In comparison Wigglesworth gets no credit for England scoring the winning try vs Scotland. He doesn't get any credit for his try saving tackle against Argentina either.


My team would be

1.Corbisierio
2.Thompson
3.Cole
4.Lawes
5.Palmer
6.Croft (c)
7.Wood
8.Haskell
9.Wigglesworth
10.Flood
11.Cueto
12.Hape (just about better than Tindall)
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

16.Stevens
17.Hartley
18.Shaw
19.Easter
20.Youngs
21.Wilkinson
22.Banahan

In comparison Wigglesworth gets no credit for England scoring the winning try vs Scotland

That's because all he did was take the ball from the tail of the lineout and pass it to Flood. Flood stood flat pulling up the defence and threw the massive pass to put in Ashton in the corner. I don't think the Wigglesworth/Flood combo is a great deal better than the Youngs/Wilko one. I agree with Metal Tiger in that it should be Wigglesworth/Wilko or Youngs/Flood.

It is probably a case of the lesser of two evils, from what i understand quite a number of posters on here don't seem to think wiggleworth is in good form?.

His form is all right but he isn't very attacking minded.

Sam are you so blinkered that you can't acknowledge that Youngs was rubbish on Saturday?

Youngs failed in his primary job - to give quick ball and get the backline running. His passing was appalling. He was sluggish. He wasn't physical enough. If the supposedly higher tempo scrum half fails then what?

Wilkinson failed in his primary job - to be clinical, get the scoreboard ticking, be reliable.

If those players failed why not pick Wigglesworth and Flood?

I am biased but I do acknowledge when my team's players have been poor and deserved to be dropped. Stevens definitely shouldn't start against France and arguably shouldn't be in the 22.

You probably think I am anti Tigers yes I have been but I genuinely try and pick an England side with no bias.

Croft should be captain.

Flood should start as fly half.

I do have a lot of respect for Tigers even if I don't always show it.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Trying to scrape through games by keeping the scoreboard ticking over seemed to be a thing of the past but England have shrunk back scared of themsleves.

This for me is a great shame and I'm sure it must be worse for an England supporter to see. You were playing such good rugby only a year ago.

But then who's to say you won't recapture that form against France?

beshocked wrote:Sam are you so blinkered that you can't acknowledge that Youngs was rubbish on Saturday?

Youngs failed in his primary job - to give quick ball and get the backline running. His passing was appalling. He was sluggish. He wasn't physical enough. If the supposedly higher tempo scrum half fails then what?

Wilkinson failed in his primary job - to be clinical, get the scoreboard ticking, be reliable.

If those players failed why not pick Wigglesworth and Flood?

I agree that Youngs and Wilkinson are both off form. Massively so...! But a combo of Wigglesworth and Flood wont solve any problems, especially as Wigglesworth is a very average player who will be up against one of two very good scrum halves in Parra and Yachvilli. Simposon is the most Talented Scrum half in the England Squad, and the form player.

But I would go for the Youngs Flood Pairing that know each other the best.

JW had the worst game of international rugby I have ever seen. Jonno has an amazing amount of faith in JW and faith that he cant turn bad into good. So i am not surprised that he will start.

Sam are you so blinkered that you can't acknowledge that Youngs was rubbish on Saturday?

Youngs
failed in his primary job - to give quick ball and get the backline
running. His passing was appalling. He was sluggish. He wasn't physical
enough. If the supposedly higher tempo scrum half fails then what?

Wilkinson failed in his primary job - to be clinical, get the scoreboard ticking, be reliable.

If those players failed why not pick Wigglesworth and Flood?

I
am biased but I do acknowledge when my team's players have been poor
and deserved to be dropped. Stevens definitely shouldn't start against
France and arguably shouldn't be in the 22.

You probably think I am anti Tigers yes I have been but I genuinely try and pick an England side with no bias.

Croft should be captain.

Flood should start as fly half.

I do have a lot of respect for Tigers even if I don't always show it.

Youngs was complete rubbish on Saturday but England have played their best rugby in the last couple of years with him in the team. I think it's worth persevering with him for now, given we know how good he can be, and that WIgglesworth has also put in a crap performance recently.

And I can see the rationale behind Wilko starting against the French.

This time though I hope Johnson's quicker to bring on Flood and/ or Wigglesworth if things aren't working.

I actually read in the BBC article that Flood was backup to Tindall at 12. An interesting development if true.

Beshocked,

Youngs was not good - some explanation for that has been given.


All we are saying is that Flood fits better with Youngs - and Wiggy fits better with Wilko.

For me:

Flood/Youngs>Wiggy/Wilko>Wiggy/Flood>Youngs/Wilko

Sam are you so blinkered that you can't acknowledge that Youngs was rubbish on Saturday?

I didn't mention Youngs. He didn't play well and the combination of Wilko and Youngs was a complete failure. No point playing a high tempo scrum half with a conservative fly half, was doomed to failure.

I just don't think Wigglesworth and Flood suit each others playing styles particularly well. Flood works best with a scrum half that plays at a tempo he doesn't set one himself and he will slot into how the scrum half plays. Wigglesworth plays at quite a conservative tempo and looks to pick holes with ball retention and tactical kicking much the same as Wilko. Youngs prefers to play gainline rugby at a high tempo which brings Flood into more prominance and where the positives from the 6N stemmed.

Simposon is the most Talented Scrum half in the England Squad, and the form player.

Barely played in months so how has he shown form? Known to be very quick but not great at bossing the pass and controlling the tempo so how does that make him the most talented or in a position to take on the French who have a scrum half in Yachvilli who knows tricks Simpson hasn't even heard of. Simpson is a talented rookie.

London Tiger that makes infinitely more sense.

Eustace H Plimsoll I hope that Youngs does actually find some form but I wonder if he can.

The worst combo is Youngs-Wilkinson yet MJ picks it.

Sam what tempo did Youngs play at against Scotland? It certainly wasn't high. How can you blame Wilkinson for Youngs' appalling passing -it was almost Mauro Bergamasco-esque.

My point is that Youngs didn't do his job, Wilkinson didn't do his. If you want to persevere with them that's your opinion.

maestegmafia I would rather have Wigglesworth than the hugely overrated Mike Phillips.

Richard Wigglesworth won the AP last season. Did Simpson? No, his team failed to qualify for the HC.

Wigglesworth is still a hugely underrated player evidently by many. You don't play for currently the best side in England by being average.


My logic is that Youngs' best game for England has been that 20-25 minute cameo against Argentina. Why not do the same against France?

beshocked wrote:Richard Wigglesworth won the AP last season. Did Simpson? No, his team failed to qualify for the HC.

Wigglesworth is still a hugely underrated player evidently by many. You don't play for currently the best side in England by being average.

Well you could use that logic to justify picking any Saracens player

tomathy don't get me started...... why Brad Barritt wasn't picked....

I can understand the likes of Strettle,Goode,Hodgson,Farrell,Borthwick,Botha being borderline but not Brad Barritt. It's a no brainer really.

If Youngs has a good game on Saturday I will eat my words but I think the halfback combo of Youngs and Wilkinson has disaster written all over it again.

youngs and flood surely will be starting- wilko is a great option last 20

My point is that Youngs didn't do his job, Wilkinson didn't do his. If you want to persevere with them that's your opinion.

We have to persevere with them there's a squad of 30 and only so many options available. Both are clearly good players and both are clearly good enough to play on the international stage, however, it's clearly not a partnership that works. Wigglesworth showed nothing creative when he came on that would convince me he is the messiah, despite me agreeing fully that he is overlooked unfairly by many. Halfbacks are all about combinations and if the combination doesn't work you'll get nowhere (as seen against Scotland). Yet in the Argentina game where Youngs and Flood were paired together for the final 15, we score and do the business.

Richard Wigglesworth won the AP last season. Did Simpson? No, his team failed to qualify for the HC.

Wigglesworth is still a hugely underrated player evidently by many. You don't play for currently the best side in England by being average.

Not sure Simpson was the cause of Wasps awful season last year, pretty sure it was some of the donkeys making up the 8 men in front of him. Not sure Wigglesworth was the sole reason Saracens worked so well. It is a team game and we go back to the point about combinations and of course the ability of the pack in front to produce good ball. Last year Simpson had one of the worst packs going whilst Wigglesworth was nestled in behind probabley the biggest pack in the league.

tomathy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Richard Wigglesworth won the AP last season. Did Simpson? No, his team failed to qualify for the HC.

Wigglesworth is still a hugely underrated player evidently by many. You don't play for currently the best side in England by being average.

Well you could use that logic to justify picking any Saracens player

Well you have to ask Why South Africa stick by Smit but wont touch the Saracens "backrow" hooker. I doubt you could use the same logic to justify continuing to pick Stevens though.

Wigglesworth doesnt play for the currently best side in England, currently he plays for the fourth best side in New Zealand...by your own admission many of those players being average. Its debatble as to whether Saracens were the best side last year ( when he didnt play to them) or would be if all the international players were back and playing for their repsective clubs.
That argument being bunk aside he is a better player than given credit for and has far from disgraced himself so far. I just think Youngs and Flood are a better combination....and agree with you that if your playing Wilko you might as well go with wigglesworth as well.

How accurate is this suggestion from the Beeb? Only yesterday The Guardian were implying that both Wilko AND Flood would start, with Flood replacing Tindall at centre. Now there's only one change. Hope it's speculation!

ER the rumours are that if Tindall is not fit then Flood will start at 12 and there will be some switching between him and Wilko so that England go dual play maker like in the Brian Ashton era.

peter seabiscuit wheeler it's hardly debatable when such strong records in the past two seasons - especially against our closest rivals.

We have beaten you 4 times in a row in the AP now. Saints 5 times in a row in the AP. Gloucester 2 times. Quins 4 times. Bath 5 times. You can talk about full strength sides etc but surely going to oppositions' backyards and winning consistently counts for something. Admittedly we find Gloucester tough but do Gloucester fans generally think they are currently a better side?

We also won the most games in the AP. We don't rely on bonus points. We also are currently the best team at winning away from home.

Brits doesn't play in South Africa. He is a maverick - not a conventional SA hooker.

Yeah, Gloucester are better, ask Eliota.

ER the rumours are that if Tindall is
not fit then Flood will start at 12 and there will be some switching
between him and Wilko so that England go dual play maker like in the
Brian Ashton era.

Yes. I'm not too sure how I feel about Flood at 12 outside Wilko to be honest. I mean I'm no fan of Tindall but I'm starting to get nervous thinking of the following:

Wilkinson stands approximately 30m behind ruck; Youngs takes four steps and fires huge looping pass over his head; Wilko jumps to catch and offloads to Flood who barely has time to catch a whiff of the approaching garlic cloud before he is torn to pieces by a marauding French back row. Hodgseon starts warming up.


In short i think we could maybe do with a big lad outside wilko. Flood operates best near the gainline and he could well be sitting a long way behind it with Jonny at 10.

Yeah, it is interesting how much the english think of schalk Brits.

He is a lovely player to watch, he has skills and many things going for him if we needed another loose forward.

The problem is we already have three loose forawrds plus Bismarck who is not only bigger, stronger and a good runner, but the best hooker in world rugby ( so i am told)

beshocked wrote:peter seabiscuit wheeler it's hardly debatable when such strong records in the past two seasons - especially against our closest rivals.

We have beaten you 4 times in a row in the AP now. Saints 5 times in a row in the AP. Gloucester 2 times. Quins 4 times. Bath 5 times. You can talk about full strength sides etc but surely going to oppositions' backyards and winning consistently counts for something. Admittedly we find Gloucester tough but do Gloucester fans generally think they are currently a better side?

We also won the most games in the AP. We don't rely on bonus points. We also are currently the best team at winning away from home.

Brits doesn't play in South Africa. He is a maverick - not a conventional SA hooker.

concentrating on the HC mate

beshocked wrote:
maestegmafia I would rather have Wigglesworth than the hugely overrated Mike Phillips.

Mike Phillips is Welsh and has nothing to do with this thread, he serves a purpose for Wales but we are all very Happy to have Lloyd Williams, Tavis Knoyle, Rhys Webb plus a few others in the fold for the future.

If you are elluding to Wigglesworth being a better Scrum half than Phillips, then why didnt Wigglesworth tour with the Lions? If he really is a better player maybe he would have scored more tries than Phillips and we could have won the Series ???

Well Wilkinson's starting anyway:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15179244.stm

Flood at 12 might not be a bad option, it changed the England team when he came on against Scotland, flatter faster and less reliant on his left boot (which seems a little off target) than Wilkinson.

Flood and Youngs would be my choice as they are familiar with each other. THough Johnson may just be relying on his faith in Wilkinson to step up when needed. Flood is either a great addition from the bench if things need a shake up or a decent shout as a creative 12 to help try and solve the center partnership issues.

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:
maestegmafia I would rather have Wigglesworth than the hugely overrated Mike Phillips.

If you are elluding to Wigglesworth being a better Scrum half than Phillips, then why didnt Wigglesworth tour with the Lions?

Well if Shane Williams is so good then why was he behind Ugo Monye for the Lions?

Wigglesworth is a very solid player, and, whilst Phillips can be brilliant, a lot of Welsh fans seem to have spent the last two years moaning about him being terrible.

Not saying that Wigglesworth is a better player, just that the Lions selection doesn't really prove anything.

maestegmafia I am talking about now.

Don't worry peterseabiscuit wheeler now we haven't got quite possibly the hardest HC group ever we will be fine in the HC. Biarritz,Ospreys and Treviso are infinitely easier than Leinster,Clermont and Racing Metro!

Let's hope the England selection is a red herring. Peter seabiscuit wheeler could you pass on the message to MJ that Wilkinson should be dropped?

one side note... everyone is making good points about game form... but does anyone know how the players are training and what they are doing on the training pitch..?

no..?

maybe the fairly obvious flaws v Scotland have been looked at by analysts with access to far better stats and footage than we do.

PS:

The Leicester man trained in the No.12 shirt on Wednesday, as England rehearsed drills in the possible absence of Tindall.


hmmm while Tindall may be fit, there may be a chance to see Wilco 10, Flood 12 at some point!!!!!!

We don't rely on bonus points

Or were previously incapable of accumilating them? Having next to no structured attacking game last season Sarries were only able to score tries on the counter (normally from a panicked kick) or when the opposition pack was able to be muscled asideto a rumble over the line.

damage_13 wrote:PS:

The Leicester man trained in the No.12 shirt on Wednesday, as England rehearsed drills in the possible absence of Tindall.


hmmm while Tindall may be fit, there may be a chance to see Wilco 10, Flood 12 at some point!!!!!!

Well its sensible since they dont really have cover for 12 in the side unles sBanhan or Tuilagi moves there, but taht doesnt give an option of changing the gameplan if things arent working.
Having Flood at 12 is a plan B or cover if Tindall gets crocked again ( he should have come off rather than limping around )
The reports that they were planning on starting Flood at 12 if Tindall wasnt fit ofr the game are bunk as far as Im concerned, they wouldve played Hape there surely. But since Banahan will be on the bench I assume they consider flood at 12 a tactical option.

I've never been a fan of playing Flood and Wilkinson together but with the depth of runners in the outside backs that we now have I think it could work quite well. Both Flood and JW are solid in defence so there wouldn't be any issues there and they could look to bring their outside runners into the game. My only worry would be that the defence may ignore the threat of 10 & 12 and drift quickly onto Tuilagi and others.

Also, if flood and JW started, would Flood be the goal kicker from the off? Until a few weeks ago it was unimaginable that JW would start a game and not be the number one kicker!

I know alot of people have been calling for a Croft/Wood/Haskell backrow but for this match I think Moody can deffinatly make a difference. His best attribute is his ability to get to the opposition Fly half, put him under pressure and get a few marginally late hits on them. We know france can be flakey at the best of times and they have Parra who isn't looking comfortable playing fly half, starting Saturday. Mad Dog to put pressure on Parra all day (or until he gets himself injured) should give us the edge to win.

Wilkinson was poor on Saturday, Youngs was shocking. Whoever starts this w'end, the biggest mistake to be made will be if Jonhnson allows things to run so badly for so long without hauling someone off.

The second biggest mistake would be unearthing destructive backs and constantly inserting a bloke in the centres who couldn't pass wind - but that mistake's pretty much a constant ....isn't it .....Mike ....

Youngs had a poor game but he's still the best we've got and has potential to become the best scrum-half in world rugby.

I suppose you then haven't seen Will Genia or francois Hougaard play then.

I thought Morgan Parra had a chance but he's an outside half now, apparently...

I suppose you then haven't seen Will Genia or francois Hougaard play then.

I've seen Ben Youngs outplay the former. Youngs is a bit crap at the moment. No one's saying he's the best in the world just that he could be.

Playing Wilko 10 and Flood 12 will be a disaster, the other way round just might work.

Flood plays well when he stands flat and looks for the half break releasing the likes of Ashton or sending a flat pass to the powerful mid field either way the opposition is not sure.

Jonny stands so far back Youngs has to take a run up to get the ball as far is him!! So any skill that Flood might bring to the table is not given a chance.

If it starts as predicted I hope they switch A LOT

For what its worth, I think Youngs should start, Wigglesworth hasnt looked any great deal better and youngs was a worldbeater not so long ago. He has the talent and fingers crossed he can regain some of that form. Wigglesworth is a good player, a solid scrum half with a good pass and tactical game.

If you're going to start youngs though, you need to go with flood, as posters have mentioned, wilko stands too deep and it seems to make youngs force his passing, thus the wayward rubbish against scotland.

Youngs and flood is the way to go for England, they can play some breathtaking stuff when those 2 click, especially with tuilagi at 13 and the back 3 looking lively, Ashton relishes playing with those 2 when they're doing what they do well.

Have faith ye English, you've got a good side thats just not clicking somewhere, but you've got past Argentina and Scotland without playing well.

You guys seem to have a hoo-doo over the French in world cups and MJ will know that now is the time to turn it on.

9. Spoiled Petulant Public School Boy (Youngs)
10. Flood
12. Wilkinson
13. Tualagi

Seriously. Why wouldn't you?

Flood is far too slight to take first contact at 12.

Honestly, he would get mashed.

Then what would MJ tell Mrs Flood?

biltongbek wrote:I suppose you then haven't seen Will Genia or francois Hougaard play then.

I had Genia in mind when I posted that. Fact is, Youngs has outplayed Genia twice before and so far this tournament (from the couple Aussie matches I've watched) I'd say Genia looks even worse than Youngs.

MJ's selection has always worried me but then he put Foden, Ashton, Youngs and Flood in and I started to believe. Now he's just looking confused and I'm worried again. Why can't managers see the glaringly obvious. He won't get the best out of Youngs if Flood isn't playing off him. He's only a decent centre pairing away from a very, very good back set up. We are too far in to be still not settled. Crazy!