Should Pacquiao Be Recognised As a LMW Champion?

The WBC light middleweight title will be on the line in the fight between Saul Alvarez and Matt Hatton. That in itself is a joke, given that Hatton is the euro welterweight champ, and the issue is an entirely different bone of contention. 

But what it does mean is that Manny Pacquiao has vacated the WBC LMW title after holding it for about 100 days or less. The question is, should history recognise manny as a LMW champion? As much as I like him, I'm inclined to say definitely not, for the following reasons: 

1) He won the title against an unranked, inactive fighter who had only fought twice at 154lb in 8 years. 

2) The fight was made at a catchweight of 151lb. 

3) Manny vacated the title after holding it for 3 months without ever defending it. 

4) Manny has never and will never fight within the full 154lb limits of the LMW weight class. Mannys own people state that he cannot fight at full 154lb hence his return to welter. 

Can he really be recognised as a legitimate light middleweight champion? Definitely not. The whole thing was a farce, with Top Rank offering margarito as the sacrificial lamb to help their cash cow claim a cheap piece of history, and the increasingly ridiculous WBC trying to get in on the act by devaluing their title and offering it as a trinket to the high profile fighter,  despite their being more deserving contenders in the rankings. 

He will be recognised as a world champ at LMW. But I tend to agree with you on your reasoning. I'd put an aterix next to his name, much in the same manner that I'd put an asterix on SRL being the WBC (again) LHW champ when he beat LaLonde. Almost a buy one get one free title.

ps - this is NOT a Floyd/Manny thread.

Yes he should, for one reason:

He won a Light Middleweight belt.

The value of that can be debated. What can't however, is if he should be seen as a LMW champion.

If he held the strap then you would probably have to say he should be recognised.

The various title bodies are a joke but its not really Pacquaios fault. The fighter makes the belt these days. If you go down that road then you could take recognition off lots of fighters.

Ive no problem with Pacquaio fighting for the title but Margarito was a soft opponent to be selected. He won the belt legitimately though so I would recognise him as a LMW champion.

Why should Pacquiao be recognised as a 154lb champion when he hasn't actually beat anyone ranked at the weight yet? Margarito hadn't fought at 154lbs since his fight with Martinez. Hello?

Ayup Sweetie. If it was down to me, then no, I wouldn't recognize him as a Light-Middleweight champion; although I'd be declining it for less reasons than you.

As far as I'm concerned, the only reason he shouldn't be recognized as a Light-Middleweight champion is the catchweight. The Light-Middleweight division has a limit of 154 lb, to stipulate that a fighter can't weigh more than 151 lb for a fight means that, automatially, the bout should not be sanctioned for a title. It should be a simple enough equation to understand, but as you say the sanctioning bodies are beyond ridiculous now.

But that would be my only reason for not recognizing him at that weight, and personally I think a couple of your other reasons are a wee bit harsh.

Pernell Whitaker won the WBA Light-Middleweight title from Julio Cesar Vasquez and relinquished it immediately after the fight, but regardless of that, he still won a recognized 154 lb belt at the full weight. As a genuine question, do you personally not count Whitaker's title at the weight on that basis?

Would also have to take issue with not recognizing Pacquiao on the grounds that he can't and never will fight weighing in at 154 lb, too. When Armstrong won the Welterweight title, he did so weighing inside the Lightweight limit, before dropping back down to Lightweight for his two fights with Ambers, and then moved back up to Welterweight, defending his title inside the Lightweight limit around half a dozen times. Does that mean that at this point, Armstrong shouldn't have been recognized as a Welterweight champion, as he (so far) hadn't fought at the full 147 lb in a title bout, let alone shown that he could be effective at the weight? That wouldn't make sense to me, and nor would it if we held that particular reason against Pacquiao.

In summary, the catchweight is the only reason why I personally wouldn't class Pacquiao as a Light-Middleweight champion, if it were up to me. But it isn't. The way it is though, we simply have to class him as a Light-Middleweight champion, as daft as it is.

HMS, Margarito had a previous fight at LMW. People fight for belts at weights they haven't campaigned at. World Champions have never got to the botton of the queue when stepping up a division.

Chris, if Margarito had walked in at 154, the belt would have still been on the line.

Any catchweight is a separate contract negotiation, the same as a money split. The guy with the power calls the shots, that's just the way it is.

I know Scott, but the fact remains that Margarito, for whatever reason, was still compelled to come in no higher than 151 lb. Even if he had have come in to the ring at 154 lb, I still think it would have been wrong for the title to be on the line, as Margarito, through his contract, would have been punished financially. A fight in which a fighter, in any form, is punished for coming in at the division's weight limit shouldn't be for a title in that given division in my eyes.

Ultimately, I'm agreeing with your last sentence that we have to accept him as a Light-Middleweight champion, but was just stating that if it were down to me, it would be a different story. Sadly though, it's not, and the story is as written.

Just go back to the old weight limits.No light middles or super middles just the old fashioned weights.In this case Middle or Welter
Fighters/ managers then decide if they want to fight the champion(or choice of 5 Champions as is now ) at that weight.
If not then its not a title fight
Catchweight fights fine but not for titles
Cloud cuckoo land I know but this illustrates what a mess the sport is in

skidd1 wrote:Just go back to the old weight limits.No light middles or super middles just the old fashioned weights.In this case Middle or Welter
Fighters/ managers then decide if they want to fight the champion(or choice of 5 Champions as is now ) at that weight.
If not then its not a title fight
Catchweight fights fine but not for titles
Cloud cuckoo land I know but this illustrates what a mess the sport is in

The traditional weights are quite dangerous now with fighters literally boiling down ot make weight. But with so many different weights in the lower divisons, give a fly a Big Mac and he would be a superfly.

Bit of a farce. Pacquiao didn't fight a recognised leading contender, nor did he fight an existing champion, nor was the fight at the full limit for the weight, NOR will he ever defend the belt he won. Everyone who has the faintest idea how boxing works knows that Bob Arum pretty much bought that LMW belt for Pacquiao, and while I can't argue that technically Pacquiao was a champ at LMW, in reality him winning that belt means next to nothing.

88chris05: But that would be my only reason for not recognizing him at that weight, and personally I think a couple of your other reasons are a wee bit harsh.

Pernell Whitaker won the WBA Light-Middleweight title from Julio Cesar Vasquez and relinquished it immediately after the fight, but regardless of that, he still won a recognized 154 lb belt at the full weight. As a genuine question, do you personally not count Whitaker's title at the weight on that basis?
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Good points chris. I think my bone of contention with this situation is the accumulation of issues more than the specifics of just one. If it was just a case of manny winning it and vacating that would be fine. But winning it in a fight with margarito? If I remember correctly Vasquez was the title holder when Pernell beat him, which to me legitimises him as a champ right there. Likewise mayweather never defended the WBC lmw strap he won from Oscar, but again Oscar was the champ. And of course both sweet pea & pbf won the titles within the full weight class parameters. I also respect what your saying about Armstrong, but with him the fact he was fighting well below the typical weight for a welter was not used as an excuse for him not to defend his title, he just got on with it.

I know this isn't the first incident of it's kind, but it just bugs me. I don't blame manny per-se, I can see it's a marketing gimmick to sell an unpopular, in-house fight to the masses to make it mannys attempt at an "8th weight title" (itself highly debatable). But manny has integrity, he must deep down realise that other than his hardcore fans most boxing fans will not recognise this as a legit title. Of course the history books say otherwise, but I guess sometimes you have to get things of your chest!

Should Pacquiao Be Recognised As a LMW Champion?
___________________________________________________

No

Yes ofcourse he should be

No he weighed in as welterweight in a light middleweight fight. Poochiao stop cheating history and the fans!!!

For me he should be simply because he fought for the title although i don't agree with winning belts at catch weights

Would have to say for the simple fact of the catchweight much like his win over Cotto for the Welterweight title. If you want to win a title fight at the weight limit there is enough of them as there are, the achievements of the old timers seem to get forgotten because of this, Armstrong was a legitamet 3 weight world champion and will be remembered as such.

Leonard for me was not the Light Heavyweight champion nor was Canzoneri ever the light Welterweight title which coincidentally I think he always defended within the lightweight limit.

There should be a definite differentiation between being a world champion and holding a world title.

light-middle is not at 154lbs, the limit is at 154lbs, anything under is ok.

The WBC sanctioned the fight Margarito was healthy at the weight, what is the problem.

The fact he wasn't a ranked contender nor was he able to weigh in at the full limit, how is that acceptable for a title fight?

Light Middleweight is 148 to 154 pounds, Poochiao weighed in at 144 pounds. Poochiao is a fake light middleweight "world champion".

He could have weighed in at 154lbs if he wanted, there could have been penalty clause in the contract but if Marg came in at 154lb he could have and the WBC would not have penalised him for it.

Margarito has beating the number 2 and number 1 light-middle, both of them champions and Margarito was ranked no.3

There is a maximum limit not a minimum limit.

Margarito and Pacquiao were in the limit.

Stop being a fool, Margarito was not ranked in the top ten and still isn't ranked in the top ten, you really shouldn't lie about things like that because I know exactly who the top ten were at the time.
How is it acceptable to impose restrictions on someone weighing in at the limit, can only imagine what you would say if this was Mayweather, after all you complained at him weighing within the Welterweight limit for a Welterweight fight against Marquez. What's the difference?

Any world title fight should be held at the weight limit and not below.

144 pounds. Fake champion. Cherry picks on past it fighters. Always in the shadow of Floyd Mayweather.

Margarito and Pacquiao were going to have a fight anyway the WBC just jumped in. Margarito agreed on the weight, his arm was not twisted.

Marg was ranked number 3 by the independent ranking organisation Boxrec

Boxrec aren't a basis to rank fighters, the ring magazine is all that matters, if Pacquiao was to jump upto Heavyweight without fighting there he would be ranked number one.

For once be objective

D4, BoxRec also rank Mayweather ahead of Pacquiao in the pound for pound stakes, so I doubt you really take too much of what they say as gospel, lad.

What pacquiao weighed is irrelevant. He could have weighed 130lb provided his opponent was allowed to weigh up to 154, but this was nit the case. The WBC may still have sanctioned the fight if marg came in over 151 (of course they would for the sanctioning fee if nothing else) but marg wouldve faced a financial penalty which is wrong when titles are on the line. Add to this that marg was not a ranked fighter at 154 (obviously the WBC decided to rank him as soon as the fight was made, but any sane, non manny hugging fan can see through that nonsense). The whole thing was a farce, little better than SRL's LaLonde debacle really and an affront to knowledgeable boxing fans that aren't obsessed with creaming off over mannys achievements no matter how blatantly manipulated they may be.

Pacquiao is an 8 weight world champ, it is in the records.

He's an 8 weight world title holder not a world champion, big big difference

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is an 8 weight world champ, it is in the records.

Which officially sanctioned world title did he win at 126lb again D4?

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is an 8 weight world champ, it is in the records.

Which officially sanctioned world title did he win at 126lb again D4?

He won the ring title and became the lineal title holder.

Lineal title= World Champion
Alphabet title= Title holder

That's how I see it anyway

Can this thread please be merged with the rest of the big mess of D4's Pacquiao huggery? Imperialghosty makes a great point about the way D4 would unashamedly and hypocritically badmouth Mayweather on the original 606 with regards to weight. The fact that D4 is able to continue his agenda on here is a real disappointment.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is an 8 weight world champ, it is in the records.

Which officially sanctioned world title did he win at 126lb again D4?

He won the ring title and became the lineal title holder.

Yes but he didn't actually win an official, recognised, sanctioned world title did he? Which is ironic because beating Barrera at 126 was probably his most legitimate claim to becoming 'the man' in any of the divisions he's fought in. Fans recognise the lineal champ, Ring magazine recognises it's belt holders, but if we're being technical and going by what the record books say then they show that manny did not win any of the WBC WBA WBO IBF IBO or even WBU titles at 126lb.

If we're not going by the record books and using critic interpretation then he was the man at 126 after beating barrera, but by the same token is not a legitimate 154lb champion.

BALTIMORA wrote:Can this thread please be merged with the rest of the big mess of D4's Pacquiao huggery? Imperialghosty makes a great point about the way D4 would unashamedly and hypocritically badmouth Mayweather on the original 606 with regards to weight. The fact that D4 is able to continue his agenda on here is a real disappointment.

Who is talking about Mayweather, what has he got to do with this thread.

Like it or not Pacquiao has won world titles at 8 different weights division. And he beat Margarito to win the WBC light-middleweight belt.

You might not like it but they are the facts.

They aren't the facts because he's only won titles at 6 weights. He's either a 4 weight world champion or a 6 world champion depending on your interpretation of the term, can't have it both ways

The facts

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/sports/11/14/10/pacquiao-decisions-margarito-wins-8th-world-crown

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2010/11/pacquiao-faces-margarito-for-an-8th-world-title-forget-about-a-9th-title-for-manny-because-he-wont-take-that-risk/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/517120-pacquiao-reaffirms-his-greatness-mauls-margarito-and-wins-8th-world-title

http://www.businessinsider.com/manny-pacquiao-wins-eighth-world-title-2010-11

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/14/us-boxing-pacquiao-idUSTRE6AD0NC20101114

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-14/manny-pacquiao-beats-taller-heavier-margarito-for-eighth-world-title.html

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxing_news/47875-pacquiaos-8th-world-championship-title-is-first-in-boxing-history.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/boxingandmma/manny-pacquiao/

They aren't the facts, just random websites and it's fairly obvious none of them are what could be said to be official

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:The WBC light middleweight title will be on the line in the fight between Saul Alvarez and Matt Hatton. That in itself is a joke, given that Hatton is the euro welterweight champ, and the issue is an entirely different bone of contention. 

But what it does mean is that Manny Pacquiao has vacated the WBC LMW title after holding it for about 100 days or less. The question is, should history recognise manny as a LMW champion? As much as I like him, I'm inclined to say definitely not, for the following reasons: 

1) He won the title against an unranked, inactive fighter who had only fought twice at 154lb in 8 years. 

2) The fight was made at a catchweight of 151lb. 

3) Manny vacated the title after holding it for 3 months without ever defending it. 

4) Manny has never and will never fight within the full 154lb limits of the LMW weight class. Mannys own people state that he cannot fight at full 154lb hence his return to welter. 

Can he really be recognised as a legitimate light middleweight champion? Definitely not. The whole thing was a farce, with Top Rank offering margarito as the sacrificial lamb to help their cash cow claim a cheap piece of history, and the increasingly ridiculous WBC trying to get in on the act by devaluing their title and offering it as a trinket to the high profile fighter,  despite their being more deserving contenders in the rankings. 

no

Denying him the LMW title is akin to saying you don't believe Hamilton to be the F1 world champion because you don't agree with a stewards verdict. Yes, we know it's a farce but he won the WBC LMW title.

He certainly won a belt which had 'WBC World Champion' written on it, but the circumstances surrounding the fight significantly negate the validity of any claim that Pacquiao was a deserving champion at 154. If he'd fought my mum for the WBC LMW World Champion belt, would that make it equally as valid? Let's face it-we all know money talks, and in this instances Arum's money was hollering particularly loudly.

If we are going by those who deserve to be seen without doubt as the number one we have very few champions, 1 or 2 at any time. Haye won a vacant belt that Wladimir should have recieved after beating Chagaev if not for politics. I don't hear many arguing with calling him a heavyweight champion. Fine to make the distinction between champion and belt holder, as long as you are consistent.

OK folks - I've merged these 2 debates - as they'd started running in parallel. Please continue the debate, however.

What the hell? The debate hasn't gone off what the thread was created for and noone is talking about Mayweather.

Completely unwarranted merge.

MODS!! THIS THREAD WAS NOT ABOUT FLOYD MAYWEATHER - IT WAS AN UNRELATED THREAD DISCUSSING MANNY AND THE LEGITIMACY OF WORLD TITLE CLAIMS - SURELY YOU CAN'T MERGE EVERY PACQUIAO OR MAYWEATHER RELATED THREAD INTO ONE??

No D4 they are not facts, they are a selection of hand picked web page articles. If I were to post a load of articles claiming that mayweather would beat manny would they be facts also?

Here are the ACTUAL facts:

Manny has won versions of the official world title in SEVEN of the divisions he has fought in, they are as follows:

Flyweight: WBC World Title 
Super Bantam: IBF World Title
Super Feather: WBC World Title
Lightweight: WBC World Title
Light Welter: IBO World Title
Welter: WBO World Title
Light Middle: WBC World Title

He also defeated Barrera at feather, but no title was on the line. 

Now, for me manny has been a world champion in THREE divisions. By that I mean he defeated the established divisional 'man' on three occasions: at 126lb v Barrera, at 130lb v Marquez and at 140lb v Hatton. Ironically, two of those wins were the most meaningless in terms of the world title - ie he didn't win any against Barrera and only got the non credible IBO strap against hatton. Beating an unranked lowlife like margarito for a vacant strap does not make him a world champion, merely a title holder, there is a difference that every sensible boxing fan recognises. 

I think we can safely say that manny has been a world champion in three divisions, and a title holder in seven. One thing he is NOT is an eight weight world champion. 

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:I think we can safely say that manny has been a world champion in three divisions, and a title holder in seven. One thing he is NOT is an eight weight world champion. 

Seems sensible, althought the IBO is not generally an 'official' world title, as recognised by the IBHOF.

Can't accept he is a world title holder at light middle. It was a catch weight fight. Accept fighters can choose to weigh anything they want up to the limit but the key here is Marg couldn't weigh what he wanted there were heavy financial penalties for him coming in above 151. A fight made between 2 weight limits is catvchweight, always has been always will be.

People can say Tony could have come in over but lets not be naive, this was a guy in disgrace in the sport who's last fight had tanked on PPV, he was not entering the fight from a strong negotiating position he was so pleased to be near a mega fight he had to roll over and take any stipulations that were on the table.

Manny's acheivements are remarkable and for a guy who started so low to be able to beat a respected guy at 151 is nothing short of remarkable, it does not need a belt to legitimise it and all it does is devalue the already cheapened belts.

rowley wrote:Can't accept he is a world title holder at light middle.

Only because he vacated. Other than that there's nothing to debate. He was. If they give the title away with a Big Mac, that makes that person the world title holder until the WBC is no longer recognised.