Candiates for England Manager?

It might be a bit premature as we don't yet know if MJ will fall on his sword or whether someone will push him or not. (Actually I'm not sure I know who would do the pushing anyway and certainly not who would do the selection of a replacement, but anyway......)

Who could possibly lead England forward - candidate proposals with arguments pending a poll.

For what it's worth I would be very happy to see Jim Mallinder in charge of England. He has worked successfully in the England set up before with U21s and Saxons, I like what he has done with Northampton ie developing a team with a clear and positive approach to the game, nurturing talent rather than buying it. You could argue against him as he hasn't won any major silverware but I think if you look at how much he has delivered with what he has to work with it is pretty impressive. It seems he can spot potential and develop it well and create a very positive team ethos both things an England manager needs.

Dean Richards is another much talked about option but although he won plenty of silverware with Leicester he had fantastic material to work with and I am not sure he deserves all the plaudits.

Others?

Jake White is well known to want the job and would be a very strong candidate, the only problems are he isn't English and I think he has just taken up a S15 coaching position. TBH Johnson has brought the England team along well over 4 years but some of his selction decisions today will always annoy me. He deserves another few years as Woodward had 9 before 2003. Talking of SCW when the RFU sort their house out he will return after the olympics and will take alot of control over the 1st team in his high up RFU role. I don't think this is neccesarily a good thing as I imagine he will be sticking his oar in alot and treading on the managers toes without actually being the manager leading to more role confusion (the RFU love it !!!).

What we need to do is move away from bloomin 2003, its 8 years on and we still havn't evolved with martin johnson still selecting tindall, moody and wilkinson who have all been hopeless. I know the old guard will have all but gone now but johnson is still harping on about winning ugly anyway possible and keeps the naff old coaching set up that doesn't work in this new era of expansive rugby.

Martin Johnson should keep his job and be given more time with the England team.

His back room staff, Now they should be replaced IMHO, before they even think about replaycing Johnson.

Armchairexpert wrote:Dean Richards is another much talked about option but although he won plenty of silverware with Leicester he had fantastic material to work with and I am not sure he deserves all the plaudits.

Don't forget his stint at Harlequins. Similar to Mallinder he took over when they were relegated, secured promotion the next year and immediately made them successful in the AP, initiating the rugby mentality that O'Shea presides over today. I think he would make an excellent manager, but given Bloodgate I'm not sure the RFU (and many fans) would accept him. In any case his ban doesn't end till next autumn. I think he would also make a superb Performance Director (I belive his ban doesn't prevent him from that role?).

Mallinder would be a great option, although I'm not sure he's quite ready for us to get the best out of him in the role yet, he doesn't seem ruthless enough at the moment and I think a few more years at Saints battling for Silverware will resolve those issues. Definitely looks like an England manger in the making though.

Another option would be Cockerill. He'd certainly make a good forwards coach at the very least.

Well I have no experience in coaching or managing a professional rugby team. but I have been an avid rugby follower for many, many years, I have a lot of passion, know a little about rugby, a good motivator and very competitive.

I do not have an english grandparent.

But I wouldn't mind getting the job.

I have always thought a Manager and Coach Split was pretty good. I liked the Geoff Cooke/Roger Uttley Team. Would like to see Mallinder as Head Coach for England with Jonno as Manager and Gold Watches for Wells, Ford and Smith

I think, should MJ be pushed or fall on his sword, there is a strong case for a non-English Manager / Coach, Jake White is the candidate I would favour and the one who I expected to be named after the Robinson debacle.
Whilst there are good English Managers / Coaches sometimes a different perspective is what is needed to galvanise what is an average to good team into a great team.
The issues are;
1 Would the RFU contemplate such a move
2 Would Jake White or any other top foreign Manager / Coach be able to suffer the RFU

Richard Cockerill?

i would go with dean richards and have johnson take the job off rob andrew i beleive he is the major cause of the mess the rfu are in he got rid of brian ashton puthimself in charge of the last time we were in new zealand same storys .

radelven wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:Dean Richards is another much talked about option but although he won plenty of silverware with Leicester he had fantastic material to work with and I am not sure he deserves all the plaudits.

Don't forget his stint at Harlequins. Similar to Mallinder he took over when they were relegated, secured promotion the next year and immediately made them successful in the AP, initiating the rugby mentality that O'Shea presides over today. I think he would make an excellent manager, but given Bloodgate I'm not sure the RFU (and many fans) would accept him. In any case his ban doesn't end till next autumn. I think he would also make a superb Performance Director (I belive his ban doesn't prevent him from that role?).

Mallinder would be a great option, although I'm not sure he's quite ready for us to get the best out of him in the role yet, he doesn't seem ruthless enough at the moment and I think a few more years at Saints battling for Silverware will resolve those issues. Definitely looks like an England manger in the making though.

Another option would be Cockerill. He'd certainly make a good forwards coach at the very least.

G2

I completley agree, we are still using the 2003 set up, it failed in 2005 with the lions tour, andy robinson carried it on with england up to 2007 and it totally failed and now Martin Johnson in carrying on and failing with it to good affect between 2008-2012. New perspective is needed that isn't one of the old boys !

Bloody rob andrew is leading another review in a weeks time, he did the review after 2007 and look where that got us, stop bringing in people who are old playing chums, look forward. If he has to be british the you couldn't do much worse that Sir ian Mceechan and least he makes senisble descisions.

Graeme rowntree has to go, i'd imagine it was his idea to have matt stevens playing again at loosehead therefore he has to go...total shocker. John Wells and Brian Smith...total shambles our set piece was terrible, our huge pack were playing like kittens and our backline was a joke. get rid of them !!!!!

As I said somewhere else, I believe England should have an English coach/manager. But the set-up has to be reviewed first. Rob Andrew is starting another review, as if he is above this problem. If he at the top of the pyramid, then he is, by definition, part of the problem. So, one of the foxes is in charge of the hen house.

Jim Mallinder? No. Too early. This sounds like it would be a panic move. Good man with good results. But it is not fair to him or England to rush him. The job will be there again.

Dean Richards? No. Should never be allowed back in Rugby.

Cockers? Well, not the most cuddly gent in the world, but he has won...........

i think its time to get rid of MJ . its ok to not ther best in the world with what we have, but its not ok to not even know what team to play at the quarter final of a world cup. MJ has quite a priviliged job- they are so man y polayers to choose, he fail,ed in my eyes. the way the draw went he should have been in tyhe final. If we couldnt beat that france- which we shoul,d have even at the end(2 tries each) then he needs to go.

No disresepct to france they were overall the better team. But the truth is an england with any kind of plan and one that concedding half the errors would have easily won the game(were they all scared lol) .

Manager - MJ
Head Coach - Jim Mallinder
Forwards Coach - Dorian West
Backs Coach - Mike Catt


Anyone else seconded in where needed on ad-hoc basis. Already 4 feels like too many cooks.

why would anyone keep MJ as manager?

after that WC performance

I cant see that MJ has done to badly really. I would'nt be too quick to sack him, if i was an England fan i would be happy having him as manager

why?

we have so many options in england- he didnt even know what team to pick.!

obviously MJ couldnt deal with the media pressure and that is one of the reasons he didnt play hape or haskel- massive mistakes. And if you are gonna play flood because wilkos kicking is so bad- then make sure flood kicks the dam ball.

I think he has showed a lack of composure when it matters and I'm not convinced he really has the top 2 inches for this level of management - His selections both within the team and on the bench yesterday were strange and I dont think he has a good influence overall on the team when the physicality element fails. They bullied themselves to a poor 6 nations title yet everyone has caught them up and now passed them - They were genuinely lucky against both Argentina and Scotland yet we kept hearing "we are slow starters" - Actually the writing was on the wall. His game plan is limited and international sides move forward (or backward) so quickly these days, England are predictable and when the power yields nothing they then have Tuilagi and Foden to try to rescue things. In fact this is not a "team" in the true sense and Johnson is responsible for that.

I just think that he has the potential to be a great manager for England.
The whole side were not far from contoversy this RWC and you could argue that MJ didnt control them well but its the players responsibilty i feel. I think that Englands biggest issue was a divided camp.

the truth is guys- england could have scraped the freanch game and the one after and could have got to the final- even playing the way we did, that would have hidden the truths. time to get rid of him! he hasnt a clue, The pressure has got to him.

Funny thing is, i honestly feel that Andy Robinson is the best man to manage England. I know that his first effort was'nt a success but i feel he was sacked too early. I think that he is a good manager

The players were bored with Robinson and he was stale. He had been forwards coach and then Head Coach under SCW, then the big boss. All told he was in the setup for about 9 years.

It would have been better if he had stepped down when SCW left, but who ever turns down teh top job.

SCW made a lot of mistakes before and during RWC 99 and was within a hair's breadth of being sacked

My main complaint from that game was how England lacked passion on the field. You could see at the anthems, France looked fired up and apart from Tuilagi, England didn't. This is perhaps a captain thing as much as a coach thing. Perhaps they were thinking too much? This implies they're not quite 100% sure about their role in a given situation. I think maybe they have been over coached. I would (like a few others) stick with Johnson as manager, but I would have him select a new forwards coach and a new backs coach. He's then got a year to show improvement and the bringing in of young players to the set up with a very good six nations a requirement and to beat the SH team we play in the autumn.

People forget just how woeful we were when he started.

Having said all this, if they did bring in someone new I wouldn't be surprised, nor massively disappointed.

Is Johnnos job really in danger or were expectations to high on this England side that lets be honest is still developing.

I agree as the main man he must take some of the blams but senior players must take their fair share as well.

You have players like Lawes, Palmer, Croft, Youngs, Flood, Tuilagi, Ashton and Foden that are going to be the nucleus of the side for years to come so the players are there.

I would get him to outline his 4-year plan to take England to the top of World Rugby, and then give him a year to see if he's on the way, in which case give him a contract until 2015. If not get rid of him and try and bring in a new guy with 3 years till the World Cup.

Now's not the time for knee-jerk reactions.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Is Johnnos job really in danger or were expectations to high on this England side that lets be honest is still developing.

I agree as the main man he must take some of the blams but senior players must take their fair share as well.

You have players like Lawes, Palmer, Croft, Youngs, Flood, Tuilagi, Ashton and Foden that are going to be the nucleus of the side for years to come so the players are there.

ermm- nope our expectations arnt to high at all- it was obvious watching that game yesterday that we have the rugby to beat them- but we kept making stupid errors and switched of at the start of the game! If a manager cant even get a team to turn up at the start of thhe game then he needs to go- this didnt just happen in the french game- it also happened in the argentina and scotland games as well.

mysti,

OK the manager has some role to play in motivating the team and I would suggest that Johnno is a pretty good motivator but the blame for the stupid errors, penalty count etc can't be put at his door once the players cross the whitewash.

SHould he maybe publucly come out and dress down his players like Gatland has done with AWJ and more harshly Popham who hsn't played for Wales since we won at Twickenham in 08.

i dont think jonno should be sacked. Lets remeber just before the world cup, we won the six nations, and was close to winning the grand slam. I also think, that maybe some of his choices when picking the side, have been a bit dubious, but the players need to take the blame. The discpline on the pitch has been awful, and jonno cant do anything about that once the game has started.

Can I recommend Andy Robinson?

"The discpline on the pitch has been awful, and jonno cant do anything about that once the game has started."

ermmm cant agree- ok he cant do anything on the pitch- -but he can prepare them better surely

So in the pool so far....

Johnson of course could continue
Jake White - if the RFU want a foreign manager and he wants them
Jim Mallinder
Dean Richards
Richard Cockerill
Andy Robinson (al least one serious nomination)
Steve Meehan
Ian McGeechan
Dean Ryan
Connor O'Shea
Henry

I think in a day or two we might know if MJ is going to leave on his own. My reading is that he will otherwise he would stay and have to sack his coaching team and that would be like putting the blame on them and I think he is too loyal for that. Well let's see

From (Tues Oct 4th):

mystiroakey wrote:is there really a problem with the england team.

we just won the 6n's the foirst time in a long time- we have a shot at another final. our ramnking has been steadily getting better over the last few years. we are starting to beat better teamas again, we have won all our games so far this world cup.

lets not expect to much and see how they go- MJ hasnt really done anything wrong in this build up at all!

we are steadily improving and steadily getting results

and (Wed 5th Oct):

mystiroakey wrote:do you really only judge teams on last game performnaces , and to judge on a england v scotland game is abit strong- its abit of a grudge type emotional game. We all new it was gonna be tough. a wins a win. Time to move onwards and upwards

to (today, Mon 10th Oct):

mystiroakey wrote:i think its time to get rid of MJ . its ok to not ther best in the world with what we have, but its not ok to not even know what team to play at the quarter final of a world cup. MJ has quite a priviliged job- they are so man y polayers to choose, he fail,ed in my eyes. the way the draw went he should have been in tyhe final. If we couldnt beat that france- which we shoul,d have even at the end(2 tries each) then he needs to go.

No disresepct to france they were overall the better team. But the truth is an england with any kind of plan and one that concedding half the errors would have easily won the game(were they all scared lol) .

Feic, that's fickle!

Would England consider appointing Conor O'Shea as their head coach? I could see it happening.

- He's worked as RFU Director of Regional Academies

- He has given motivational speeches to the English National Team before they played Ireland

- Has been Director of Rugby at London Irish and Harlequins

- He was National Director of the English Institute of Sport

- He won Powergen Cup with London Irish

- He won Zurich Rugby Director of the Season

- He's one of only 2 coaches to defeat Munster in Thomond Park in Europe; and went on to bring Quins to the Amlin Final

Also why is Jake Whites name thrown about so much? He has only just joined the Brumbies and hasn't coached for four years.

I actually think if Conor O'Shea is a non runner then Andy Robinson may not be the worst candidate out there.

red_stag wrote:Also why is Jake Whites name thrown about so much? He has only just joined the Brumbies and hasn't coached for four years.

I agree and the other point is do England really want another coach who focuses on 10 man rugby?

Bek - I know tis off topic but who is taking over the Boks. Will we finally see them play the rugby they can and not merely "Steyns Boot" rugby

Nice work ASBO!

I think England could benefit from having an outsider come in. Someone not from one of the big clubs. The biggest issue for England over the years is that they haven't selected form players, but players based on historic performances and reputation. Players from across the league need to be picked, not just players at the biggest clubs that the coaches are familiar with. It's been too hard for players to play their way into the England side, and I think an outside perspective is needed.

The Sunday Times has suggested either McGeechan or Henry for the coaching role. Both would be superb appointments. The other due that deserve consideration is Mallett and Meehan. Mallett as head coach, Meehan as backs coach and then you could have Rowntree and/or West in charge of the forwards and the scrum, or maybe Dean Ryan (another Sunday Times suggestion).

I care less about who moves upstairs, but I think Johnson, Smith and Wells should go. The selections were a total mess, the tactics impossible to figure out and the general preparation and discipline on the tour unprofessional.

I'm not a knee-jerk guy. But I suggested when Johnson was appointed that it was a mistake, and during his tenure, for each ray of sunshine, there has been a bucket load of rain, rather like the Scottish weather. England have failed to maximise their resources, and whilst I do believe Johnson is learning and improving, I don't think the England job is the right role for him.

The problem is that the whole coaching structure needs freshening up - Wells and Ford in particular have been around the England side for about 6 or 7 years (pre-dating Johnno's appointment), while Smith I think has been in place for about 3 during which time we have shown some improvements as an attacking side.

If MJ doesn't walk away (and I think it's a bit more than 50% that he will call it a day), he should be given a year to oversee the introduction of at least one new coach (I get the feeling there is too much specialisation in the coaching setup at present, and would suggest giving Smith the reponsibility for all the attack side of the game and someone else (Shaun Edwards if we can poach him back from Wales) all responsibility for when we haven't got the ball) and to undertake the necessary re-building of the squad (jettisonning the likes of Sheridan, Thompson, Moody, Easter, Wilkinson, Hape, Flutey and Tindall), and then the opportunity be given for a re-assessment of the situation, to see whether we appear to be on the right track towards the next RWC.

I wouldn't be "jettisoning" anyone. Just pick on form.

On that basis you can be pretty sure that several of the players you name won't get into the squad anyway (on form Hape would never have got into the sqaud). If, for example, Sheridan returns from injury as the best loosehead available to England, then you should still pick him.

Graeme rowntree has to go, i'd imagine it was his idea to have matt stevens playing again at loosehead therefore he has to go...total shocker

Doubt that, Stevens was clearly picked in order to bring added mobility to the pack which would probabley have more to do with Smith than anybody else.

Is it worth looking at the England coaches/manager whatever when the RFU board is in disarray. I know they've once again tried to divert all accusations away from themselves but there is soon to be a third vote of no confidence and positions on the boards remain either empty or are held temporarily. What's the point of appointing somebody new if when the RFU is finally restructured the new board don't agree with the appointment.

If MJ was to go then the coaches need to go as well, start afresh and let the new man choose his own backroom staff.

Runners for me are;
Cockerill
Mallinder
Ian McGeechan (can't see that happening though)
Connor O'Shea

Those who should never be allowed near the post;
Lawerance Dallaligio
Andy Robinson (was horrendus last time round)
Dean Richards
Steve Meehan (pretty but ineffective rugby at Bath)

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Graeme rowntree has to go, i'd imagine it was his idea to have matt stevens playing again at loosehead therefore he has to go...total shocker

Doubt that, Stevens was clearly picked in order to bring added mobility to the pack which would probabley have more to do with Smith than anybody else.

Whoever's decision it was it was a shocking one. Stevens got hammered by Murray the game before and was up against Mas, who is a fearsome scrummager. It was clear that Stevens would struggle and England would have no platform. Corbisiero is every bit as mobile as Stevens, and bested Mas the last time they played, in the 6 Nations. It is not rocket science, it should have been a very straightforward call, but the England management got it wrong. Again!

Brenden Ventner would sort out the giggling schoolboys.

Todd Blackadder from the Crusaders or Alastair Coetzee from the Stormers would be an amazing left field choice, but require more bravery than the RFU has in its collective body.

The best choice? Rod Macqueen.

An innovator, a businessman, a politician and a grizzled veteran.
Oh, and Australia's greatest ever coach in the sport. Nobody could be better, even White.

Will the RFU approach him? Nope.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Is it worth looking at the England coaches/manager whatever when the RFU board is in disarray. I know they've once again tried to divert all accusations away from themselves but there is soon to be a third vote of no confidence and positions on the boards remain either empty or are held temporarily. What's the point of appointing somebody new if when the RFU is finally restructured the new board don't agree with the appointment.

Sam, I think that is a very good point - if there's going to wholesale change at the very heart of the RFU, as seems likely, then the appointments must start at the very top and work their way down

Thank goodness none of you rate any of our coaches at Saracens. Hopefully the RFU will not acknowledge them either.

Jim Mallinder has shown he can build a strong XV but has no skill in building a strong squad.

Actually Beshocked I'd have Gustard as defence coach he's done a great job organising Sarries. I'd bring in Paul Burke as part time kicking coach. The forwards and backs coaches would have to be dependent on who got the head job.

Sam, I think that is a very good point - if there's going to wholesale change at the very heart of the RFU, as seems likely, then the appointments must start at the very top and work there way down

Would be the most sensible way of doing it, however, the blazer boys at the top like the authority and the wages they get far to much to actually step aside or allow anything as simple as an independent review to be published. I predict more years of turmoil.

Graham Henry or Conor O'Shea would be great appointments, but I don't think Henry would want it, and as a Quins fan I'd not want to lose O'Shea.

I'd have no problem with Dean Richards getting a high profile job after he's served his ban, but the timing doesn't really work, and he'd probably be best rebuilding his reputation with a club before taking an international job.

Before screaming for Martin Johnsons head,ponder that Robinson and Ashton.
Both had better win records than Sie Clive at the point they were sacked.
Martin Johnson is Manager not coach,he needs to get rid of the golden oldies.
THEN start rebuilding loyalty is one thing,but if they don`t perform goodbye
for some this was a RWC to far.
BUT first clean out the RFU ,then maybe we will see some sense.

What does Rob Andrew do again?

Why are O'Shea and Mallinder so highly touted? They have both won the same minor title. Big deal!

If they are the best we are doomed!

Ian McGeechan has to be the favourite.

Mark Mccall is a good coach too.

I agree re: Mallinder and O'Shea. It would be too early for both. Both need to actually achieve something and win something.

As I said, I rate some of the GP coaches highly, but I think England need a fresh face, someone not overly familiar with one particular club.

McGeechan and Mallett are both good coaches with international experience. Henry, McQueen and White also have great credentials.

My prediction, England will stick with Johnson and there will be a minor reshuffle. We'll be told that's the "brave" thing to do, and parallels will be drawn with Sir Clive in 1999. Just wait and see.