Candiates for England Manager?

First topic message reminder :

It might be a bit premature as we don't yet know if MJ will fall on his sword or whether someone will push him or not. (Actually I'm not sure I know who would do the pushing anyway and certainly not who would do the selection of a replacement, but anyway......)

Who could possibly lead England forward - candidate proposals with arguments pending a poll.

For what it's worth I would be very happy to see Jim Mallinder in charge of England. He has worked successfully in the England set up before with U21s and Saxons, I like what he has done with Northampton ie developing a team with a clear and positive approach to the game, nurturing talent rather than buying it. You could argue against him as he hasn't won any major silverware but I think if you look at how much he has delivered with what he has to work with it is pretty impressive. It seems he can spot potential and develop it well and create a very positive team ethos both things an England manager needs.

Dean Richards is another much talked about option but although he won plenty of silverware with Leicester he had fantastic material to work with and I am not sure he deserves all the plaudits.

Others?

Funnyexiledscot unfortunately I agree with your prediction.

Am I right in thinking that Shaun Edwards' contract with Wales wasn't extended with Gatland's? Might he be in the frame for a job with England?

I would rather see someone take over who has been a coach/ manager at club level and achieved success over a sustained period.

Surely that is what the Aviva Premiership is for, to breed players and coaches for the national side?

Martin Johnson, will a great player/ captain, has no managerial experience before England and was surely doomed to fail before he started. Wouldn't it be better if Martin Johnson left to earn his spurs at club level first?

Dai Young ?

If it is true that Martin Johnson is a manager and not a coach,then who makes all the calls for the team selection...I realy do think/believe that Martin Johnson should not be sacked.However if he decides to walk, that is another thing altogether.

Thekr has to be a change in the coaching staff, Ford, Wells, should deffo go, Smith i am not to sure about Roundtree should keep his job.

Johnson should be allowed to manage the squad, and an understudy head coach be brought in to coach the squad.


Their also needs to be a clearout of tht older players in the squad and fresh players brought in.(Star to build NOW for 2015 Rugby world cup).

"Johnson should be allowed to manage the squad, and an understudy head coach be brought in to coach the squad."

what did yopu see as englands main problem.

to me it was the fact that england looked underprepared, the fact that johnson made some ridiculas picks v france(perhaps due to a split camp)-- either way though its bad management

Scotland should head hunt Johnson so that Robinson can revert to being a number two and get Chalmers in to coach the backs.

England should go left field:

Greenwood - Manager
Dellaglio - forwards
Dawson - backs

Let the clubs teach them skills and sort out their fitness.

Brian Moore - Public Relations

tomathy wrote:Am I right in thinking that Shaun Edwards' contract with Wales wasn't extended with Gatland's? Might he be in the frame for a job with England?

i think so. They must have been kicking themselves after 2008 Slam and i think that he has been the key to our defence. It all depends on the RWC result in my view. I think if Wales pulled it off he will leave but if not he may stay for another crack. The WRU will have to fight for him though, you would think the RFU already have him lined up but for SE it is as much about the fit as the team and i think he would find the English press BS even more unforgiving than Cardiff's. He likes working with Gatts

Mike Bassett

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FivxtFyu2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Graeme rowntree has to go, i'd imagine it was his idea to have matt stevens playing again at loosehead therefore he has to go...total shocker

Doubt that, Stevens was clearly picked in order to bring added mobility to the pack which would probabley have more to do with Smith than anybody else.

Is it worth looking at the England coaches/manager whatever when the RFU board is in disarray. I know they've once again tried to divert all accusations away from themselves but there is soon to be a third vote of no confidence and positions on the boards remain either empty or are held temporarily. What's the point of appointing somebody new if when the RFU is finally restructured the new board don't agree with the appointment.

If MJ was to go then the coaches need to go as well, start afresh and let the new man choose his own backroom staff.

Runners for me are;
Cockerill
Mallinder
Ian McGeechan (can't see that happening though)
Connor O'Shea

Those who should never be allowed near the post;
Lawerance Dallaligio
Andy Robinson (was horrendus last time round)
Dean Richards
Steve Meehan (pretty but ineffective rugby at Bath)

They obviously picked stevens because of his mobility but if johnson listens to brian smith when it comes to selecting props then johnson has to go, if graeme rowntree said stevens could do a job at loosehead against one if the best tightheads in the world after being demolished by a short tubby scotsman then Rowntree has to go. To be honest the selection decisions they made last saturday were sooo baffling and in a world quarter final as well.

P.s Steve Meehan aint that pretty !!

Until the RFU is cleaned up then no point in changing anything, still Rob Andrew is on the case so that shouldn't take long Otherwise everything else is rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic

sirtidychris wrote:They obviously picked stevens because of his mobility but if johnson listens to brian smith when it comes to selecting props then johnson has to go, if graeme rowntree said stevens could do a job at loosehead against one if the best tightheads in the world after being demolished by a short tubby scotsman then Rowntree has to go. To be honest the selection decisions they made last saturday were sooo baffling and in a world quarter final as well.

P.s Steve Meehan aint that pretty !!

Oops, slight gap in your knowledge there - England's loosehead appeared against Scotland's tighthead, none other than Euan Murray, a fearsome scrummager on his day; the "short tubby scotsman" you refer to is Chunk Jacobsen, who gave Dan Cole a miserable evening instead

if graeme rowntree said stevens could do a job at loosehead

Stevens has played loosehead in pretty much every appearence for Sarries he only reverted to tighthead during the Saxons Churchill Cup campaign.

Chunk Jacobsen, who gave Dan Cole a miserable evening instead

Dan Cole seemed to have quite a lot of fun when Corbisiero came on. I think Murray was doing the damage on the other side and Jacobsen was getting quite an easy ride.

Cockerill wouldn't be a bad shout at least he has coached a club unlike MJ, Mallett wouldn't be a bad call either.

SCW has been out too long.
Richards no thanks, he needs to get back into club rugby.
.

English rugby needs a top foreign coaches to sort it all out. Leave jonno as manager and he can learn on the job.

Dean richards is probably the only English coach worth his salt, but his rep was tainted by bloodgate.

I don't doubt that he is in contention though.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

if graeme rowntree said stevens could do a job at loosehead

Stevens has played loosehead in pretty much every appearence for Sarries he only reverted to tighthead during the Saxons Churchill Cup campaign.

Chunk Jacobsen, who gave Dan Cole a miserable evening instead

Dan Cole seemed to have quite a lot of fun when Corbisiero came on. I think Murray was doing the damage on the other side and Jacobsen was getting quite an easy ride.

Hmm, I think Robbo had switched to Dickinson at that point?!?!

Why are O'Shea and Mallinder so highly touted? They have both won the same minor title. Big deal!

because both revolutionised the way their teams play and both have encouraged the development of English players at their clubs.

My prediction, England will stick with Johnson and there will be a minor reshuffle. We'll be told that's the "brave" thing to do, and parallels will be drawn with Sir Clive in 1999. Just wait and see..

Seems likely. I hope new coaches are brought in though, Gustard at Sarries especially as he knows Johnno from his Tigers days and his oppressive style of defence has taken Sarries from mid table to top table. That would be a good rebuilding point as we gave some soft tries away.

Hmm, I think Robbo had switched to Dickinson at that point

Maybe, I can't remember it that well.

After Wales win the WC - Shaun Edwards is the man for England.

Has any one mentioned Nick Mallett? He is the ideal candidate.

Born in England so no worries from the nationalist brigade.
Was one of South Africa’s most successful coaches took them to 18 wins on the trot.
Did a remarkable job with Italy, when you look at the resources he had to work with.

Not sure what he is doing now that his Italy contract is over?

deadfred wrote:After Wales win the WC - Shaun Edwards is the man for England.

no fecking way are the rfu going to appoint someone with a proven record as a coach. get real.

How about tempting Doc Venteer over with a packet of biscuits.

Richards has been out of the game too long and would have to reprove himself even if we ignored the bloodagte thing ( for which he took all the flack froma global problem)

Edwards and Farell as coaches with someone more senior as a father figure ( SCW? "elite squads manager", Jake White?) ?


Does the RFU still have the agreement with the clubs to not approach contracted coaches/managers which led to them missing out on Edwards previously?

Sorry its 17 wins on the tort...but to make up for the one win he did get his blues in rugby and cricket at Oxford, once dispatching the great Ian Botham for three sixes in an over during a friendly against Somerset.

Gatts wrote:

deadfred wrote:After Wales win the WC - Shaun Edwards is the man for England.

no fecking way are the rfu going to appoint someone with a proven record as a coach. get real.

Does the RFU still have the agreement with the clubs to not approach contracted coaches/managers which led to them missing out on Edwards previously?

I thought the problem was by the time Johnno had come on board Edwards had already reached an agreement to work with Wales and didn't feel it was right to go back on his word. Johnno was apparently keen to work with him. Following on from the RWC I'd expect Wales to offer Edwards a substantial pay rise as the Welsh line speed and and overall defence has been excellent.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Does the RFU still have the agreement with the clubs to not approach contracted coaches/managers which led to them missing out on Edwards previously?

I thought the problem was by the time Johnno had come on board Edwards had already reached an agreement to work with Wales and didn't feel it was right to go back on his word. Johnno was apparently keen to work with him. Following on from the RWC I'd expect Wales to offer Edwards a substantial pay rise as the Welsh line speed and and overall defence has been excellent.

Johnson didn't become England manager until summer 2008, by which time Edwards had already won a grand slam with Wales. Not sure whether the RFU ever held out any real hope of getting him at that point, though I do remember a lot of speculation about it. Would Johnson really have sacked Ford to make room for him? I doubt it.

I though the situation was that the RFU had tried to get Edwards as a coach when Ashton had been sacked, but laid off as he was still under contract to Wasps and they had agreed that under contract coaches wouldnt be poached mid season.
Wales then came in for him, pointing out that they had no such agreement. Kind of a reverse of PRL refusing to release players for Wales but having an agreeement in place to do so for England.
I may be wrong, this is based on memory, but i remeber it upsetting a lot of people when he went to Wales to coach.

England certainly did want Edwards. They would probably want him even more now. I think hed work well with Johnson since both are students of American football and Rugby League tactics.

Edwards strikes me as an genuine honest/loyal person and one he had agreed terms with us he wouldn't go back on his word.

Also remember he came as part of a trio with Gats and Howley from Wasps which in itself I guess might have had big impact on his decision as opposed to working with a team of coaches he didn't know.

Would Johnson really have sacked Ford to make room for him? I doubt it..

Why? At that point Johnno had no real ties with Ford he was just a defence coach at England. It's not like Wells who MJ had played with and worked under at Tigers or club compatriot Rowntree who was later appointed scrummaging coach.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Would Johnson really have sacked Ford to make room for him? I doubt it..

Why? At that point Johnno had no real ties with Ford he was just a defence coach at England. It's not like Wells who MJ had played with and worked under at Tigers or club compatriot Rowntree who was later appointed scrummaging coach.

Had a mind-blank and forgot that Ford wasn't also a Tigers man. You may be right then, but MJ did show a lot of loyalty to the lot of them from quite early on.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I though the situation was that the RFU had tried to get Edwards as a coach when Ashton had been sacked, but laid off as he was still under contract to Wasps and they had agreed that under contract coaches wouldnt be poached mid season.

They possibly tried to get him straight after the world cup, but by the time Ashton was sacked he was already with Wales and had won the 2008 grand slam.

God point Tomathy, Im sure they did try to get him pre Wales though

Had a mind-blank and forgot that Ford wasn't also a Tigers man. You may be right then, but MJ did show a lot of loyalty to the lot of them from quite early on..

Don't know how much of that was through choice though. The RFU might have limited his recruitment options (not wanting to pay out for those coaches that were released) as part of his acceptance of the job. He was allowed to pick an attack coach with help from Rob Andrew and had a go at poaching Edwards as defence coach. We don't know the full details but what is important now is that the RFU gets it's house in order and then asks them all to re-apply for their jobs.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Had a mind-blank and forgot that Ford wasn't also a Tigers man. You may be right then, but MJ did show a lot of loyalty to the lot of them from quite early on..

Don't know how much of that was through choice though. The RFU might have limited his recruitment options (not wanting to pay out for those coaches that were released) as part of his acceptance of the job. He was allowed to pick an attack coach with help from Rob Andrew and had a go at poaching Edwards as defence coach. We don't know the full details but what is important now is that the RFU gets it's house in order and then asks them all to re-apply for their jobs.

fair point.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Why are O'Shea and Mallinder so highly touted? They have both won the same minor title. Big deal!

because both revolutionised the way their teams play and both have encouraged the development of English players at their clubs.

O'Shea is certainly a very good coach, but the revolution at Quins was started by Dean Richards and was well established by the time O'Shea took over.

Given bloodgate I don't believe Richards would be allowed to become England manager (a shame as I think he would be the perfect candidate). He'd make a great Performance Director as well though, a role his ban wouldn't apply to.


Re Johnson and Wells & Ford, he was definitely given full control of appointment of the coaching team. I remember it being discussed at the time and a search for press releases of Johnson's appointment confirms it.

O'Shea is certainly a very good coach, but the revolution at Quins was started by Dean Richards and was well established by the time O'Shea took over.

Certainly O'Shea took on a team that had already been turned around but he has done excellent work to continue the improvements and the amount of young talent coming into the team points to some very wise alignment of backroom staff (including scouts). He has shown tactical nous and clearly isn't short on the fiery commitment aspect, not sure I'd put him in the running at the moment as I'd like him to show longevity in the role (another season or two) before being offered a job the size of England.

radelven wrote:Given bloodgate I don't believe Richards would be allowed to become England manager (a shame as I think he would be the perfect candidate). He'd make a great Performance Director as well though, a role his ban wouldn't apply to.

Really? I remember there was a huge fuss when he did some consultancy for worcester last year. I believe they had to prove that the work he'd done didn't directly relate to the rugby side of things.

It would be sensible to stick with Johnosn on a one or two year contract whilst they get the RFU board an elite director positions sorted out, then the people in charge can get the man and set up they want.
The worst scenario would be to rush in new coaches and a new set up that isnt wanted or repsected by the reformed RFU in a year or so and then have then undermined.

As management appears to be mostly selection i think the RFU should start a 606v2 account and then have a poll before every match. Apparently we all know more than the management currently...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:It would be sensible to stick with Johnosn on a one or two year contract whilst they get the RFU board an elite director positions sorted out, then the people in charge can get the man and set up they want.
The worst scenario would be to rush in new coaches and a new set up that isnt wanted or repsected by the reformed RFU in a year or so and then have then undermined.

Whether or not Johnson is the right man going forward, I have a horrible feeling that he'll carry on purely because there's no-one around with the authority to really do anything else. Couldn't the RFU get a disinterested outside expert to make their report on it rather than Rob Andrew, who is in a bit of an odd position right now?

Couldn't the RFU get a disinterested outside expert to make their report on it rather than Rob Andrew, who is in a bit of an odd position right now?.

I'm suprised he dared head up the internal review, look at what happened to poor Jeff Blackett. He was condemned for daring suggest the RFU board was not fit for purpose.

Just seen this. Fran Cotton to head an independent review of entire RFU structure, as well as assessing Rob Andrew's own report into the world cup

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8822387/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-former-RFU-vice-chairman-Fran-Cotton-will-head-up-review-of-entire-England-structure.html

Who'd take it, assuming Johnson walks? I mean, come on...who's going to take it (OK, a decent salary may soften the blow) with the current setup at the RFU? Who'd take it given the assumption that there'd be some stupid politicing going on overhead all the bloody time? Who'd take it given the treatment of Robinson and Ashton??

No-one, if they have one iota of sense unless there's massive changes higher up and they can dictate exactly who they have as their team.

Personally, I'm not too worried if Johnno stays as manager for now but ffs, please, please get rid of some of the backroom deadweight.

Don't hold your breath.

tomathy wrote:Just seen this. Fran Cotton to head an independent review of entire RFU structure, as well as assessing Rob Andrew's own report into the world cup

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8822387/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-former-RFU-vice-chairman-Fran-Cotton-will-head-up-review-of-entire-England-structure.html

Reckon that news is probably worth it's own thread, tomathy?

More bureaucracy...that will sort it out for sure.

TheGreyGhost wrote:More bureaucracy...that will sort it out for sure.

Well getting an outsider to report on the RFU is bound to do more good than just sitting around. Whatever happens, the RFU needs to know soon what direction it's heading in.

I liked the way they included someone who knows nothing at all about rugby.

That always works so well.

TheGreyGhost wrote:More bureaucracy...that will sort it out for sure.

There's been a real lack of reports and reviews at the RFU over the years. Sounds like this Cotton report will be in addition to the Andrew report on the World Cup. Lots of reports to read.

Dictatorships have a lot going for them.

tomathy wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:More bureaucracy...that will sort it out for sure.

Well getting an outsider to report on the RFU is bound to do more good than just sitting around. Whatever happens, the RFU needs to know soon what direction it's heading in.

Unfortunately, as the article points out, Cotton has glaringly nailed his colours to the mast already, so his degree of independence must come under severe scrutiny?

TheGreyGhost wrote:I liked the way they included someone who knows nothing at all about rugby.

That always works so well.

I know. Why not just let Cotton get on with it himself? Imagine the two "rugby people" on the Panel disagree, does that mean the person "with no rugby connections" gets the casting vote??

The RFU can't even launch an investigation properly!!