MJ TO RESIGN MONDAY MORNING?

What's the view? Reasoning?

Think he will go, has had enough, will be forced to accept change of coaching team, is backed by a house of cards which itself may go, is under constant shadow of SCW, needs to get some club experience, may want to disassociate from England RWC 2011.

That said, stubborn 2nd row RWC winner. Tougher than Gandhi's flip flop, handles the press, is no yes man. Knows English rugby inside out. Went head to head with a President. Has probably learned more in the last 6 weeks than the last 3 years.

It has to be said that with the RWC in its present state it will be hard for ANYONE to Manage/Coach England.
Is there any evidence he is making the decision Monday? last I heard there were seperate Reviews.By both Rob Andrew and Fran Cotton,that Bill Beaumont was the only member likely to stay.Writs and injunctions and unpublished reports flying about.
Knee Jerk reactions will be sacking most of the coaches,MJ may stay on if he
has a say in hiring Coaches etc.
He like every Manager/Coach since has been under the shadow of SCW [unfairly].
That people are using his name still to undermine the current setup when he has made it plain he doen`t want to know.
MJ was making progress developing a young team the 6Ns being a starting point.He tried to change styles a bit with Toby Flood as pivot,then reverted
to safety first mode.
2011 was`nt a realistic target for a Final appearence by 2015 they will be more likely.
The core of the team are youngish,discarding players like Tindall,Stevens,Thompson,Wilkinson. With 4 years rebuilding England should
be a much better team by then.
MJ may well fancy the challenge if he gets the proper backing from a settled RFU.

I personaly do not believe that Martin Johnson should resign, If you look at the England team since he came in, yes their are still some dead wood in the team but mainly the team is built up on young talentewd players.

I do believe that this should IN MY OPINION be put down as a learning curb, I do believe that he can and will given the chance deliver a better England between now and 2015 RWC, when you think that whennhe came in to the post/job he had no experience what so ever.

If he does deside to resign then it should be because he no longer wants the job, and not because of what happend or did not happen in New Zealand.

The the RFU should not only be looking at MJ, but also the role that the coaches (back room staff) Was they good enough, should they be changed if MJ does desid too stay, Shouyld they be changed if MJ desides to go?

Martin Johnson should not be made a scape goat just because Engloand had one of their worst RWCs.

To reproduce a post I made elsewhere:

I agree with the view that MJ has never really set out a clear vision for how he wants the England side to develop. England have also lacked on field leadership during his time, and he has to take some responsibility for that as he picks the players. Sticking with Moody and Tindall failed on all levels.

I don't think there is any chance that MJ will agree to sacking the coaching staff, and I think that makes his position untenable. I get the impression MJ doesn't think there is much wrong, and that he'd go into the 6 Nations with the same coaching staff and basically the same players.

I think the RFU (or what's left of them) realise that can't be allowed to happen.

he wont resign - he's too stubborn. It's not in his psyche to just quit.
He will feel he has unfinished business.

I hope he stays....but he needs to address the coaches, and revise his selection policies...otherwise he needs to step aside...but not for Woodward.

Thats going backwards.

Hasn't he pretty much been told by Cotton to resign? Can't say I'd blame him if that's how I was treated in my employment!

Hope he stays. Coaching set-up changes are all thats needed.

As has been said, MJ isn't necessarily doing a bad job. What needs to happen is that the coaching staff are replaced and that MJ accepts that his selection policy has been flawed. The future could be very bright indeed if these issues were resolved.

Bitter Beer,

Thats my thoughts also....but in the back of my mind....should a good Head Coach/ Manager not already recognise these facts...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bitter Beer,

Thats my thoughts also....but in the back of my mind....should a good Head Coach/ Manager not already recognise these facts...

The RFU could not agree on the colour of poopie at the moment. So it's little wonder that MJ can't make changes to his staff or any sort of meaningful decisions at the moment.

What can you do it you don't have the players / talent??

He's no Louis Walsh you know!!

Boyne....i actually believe we DO have the players....just not the right system...its too inconsistant.

And MJ failed to pick some of those that most fans agree he SHOULD have....

I'm of the belief that absolute power brings absolute responsibility.

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), the shenanigans at RFC HQ were partially precipitated by MJ's unwillingness to work under SCW?

That he wanted the national teams selection and management to be entirely his call, and not influenced by the director of elite performance, or whatever the role is called today?

I've heard a lot of folks calling for his coaches to go, for various players international careers to be ended, for the RFU to pull themselves together, for Rob Andrew to go, for various other permutations of hirings and firings.

But in my opinion, when the guy set himself up as commander and chief and repeatedly speculated that the team was being built for the RWC at the expense of losing so-called less important games, he signed his own resgination form in the event of an early exit, especially if marred by off-field incidents.

Martin Johnson was made Manager.NOT Coach he holds no formal coaching
certificates[at least at the time of his appointment].
BY a mixture of Media backlash,and Thomas post RWC 2007 where Ashton a highly competent coach was shamefully sacked.
When the RFU fearing legal action,back down and admitted they were wrong.
They then tried to give him a subordinate job he rightly refused it.
What is required is cool heads,sort out the RFU first,WHEN they have a decent setup.THEN look at MJ and his staff and start from there,2011 was`nt a realistic target.2015 maybe will be.

It's no really a question of him resigning. He doesn't have tenure. His contract is up at the end of the year anyway.

fushnchups

The whole "MJ refusing to work with SCW" line was being spouted by the media with very little apparent evidence to back it up, and in any case it's entirely correct that Johnson would have refused to hand over selection and management powers. It would have made his role redundant.

Whether you think he should go or not, he did not "set himself up as commander in chief". He was APPOINTED as team manager, and had selection powers been taken away from him then he'd have probably resigned, quite rightly.

fushnchups wrote:But in my opinion, when the guy set himself up as commander and chief and repeatedly speculated that the team was being built for the RWC at the expense of losing so-called less important games, he signed his own resgination form in the event of an early exit, especially if marred by off-field incidents.

When did he do that??? He's always stressed the importance of going into every game with the absolute aim of winning it. The main criticism levelled at him has been the opposite of what you said - namely that he was conservative with his selections and didn't set out to build a new team properly.

Who would sack him, there's no one left in the RFU apart from Bill Beaumont!

Sort out the RFU and THEN sort out the coaching set up - especially as it gives everyone a few weeks/months to let the dust settle.

I actually rate MJ as a coach. He still has a lot to offer in that role. He would be a very good forwards coach in my eyes so it would be a shame to have him totally removed from the set up.

I don't think many England fans think there is a lack of talent. The concern is about the coaching (and MJ could have chosen to make more changes there), and about the selection (the buck stops with MJ).

As I said I can't see MJ agreeing to changing the coaching staff, and without that I don't think he can possibly stay. Frankly his stubborness suggests he isn't necessarily cut out to be a great head coach anyway.

Personally I think he needs to go and get involved with a good club side. Post 2015 he might be worth another go.

MJ's contract is up. The RFU have to either give him another one or let him go. They seems to be working hard to get key people in position to allow them to take a view on whether MJ showed be offered another contract, informed by the two reviews which are going on.

I don't think MJ would sign a contract without knowing who at the RFU he was going to be answerable to anyway. So the RFU will be sorted before an MJ decision is made, at least as far as Directors and Chief Exec are concerned.

But, I expect MJ to say he isn't interested in re-applying for his job (or it's new version).

so when will this be confirmed do we think?

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:so when will this be confirmed do we think?

Definitely on a Monday morning...

In all seriousness they shouldn't be deciding until there is an actual RFU in place instead of the current joke. But I guess the "reviews" will be done in about a month maybe, I'm going for the 21st November...

In all honesty...who would replace him?

Mallet?

Cant see Malinder leaving Saints....
Deano...well still serving ban and would they take him on....
Any other foreign coach...?
Booth from LI?

Mallett or Mallinder I reckon...

eirebilly

On what do you base the following?

"I actually rate MJ as a coach. He still has a lot to offer in that role"

We have had to suffer his dull, plodding team for the last few years. Just what part of their joyless attritional style did you enjoy? What more can he offer?
England have the talent or sure, I don't think that's the question. The problem is that Johnson's not a great coach. What are his coaching (not playing) credentials?
Do you think his players have enjoyed playing for England under Johnson's tenure? It certainly doesn't look that way.

He must go now, he's had his chance. Is the team any better than it was 4 years ago? Evidently not.
Fantastic player, rubbish coach, it's not an unusual combination. Perhaps Leicester beckons now? There's a solution that would suit everyone.

Man who never made any mistakes never made anything.

Just hope hes learned thats all.

Don't quote me on this as it is all hearsay, but, I have heard that he is waiting on the Cardiff Blues to see who is on their short-list. Seriously, please do not take this as a wind up but this is what I have heard through certain sponsors along with a few other names, but I have now said too much so it is time to keep shtum

Hopefully he will stay on as Manager when the RFU sorts itself out.
He may be out of contract,and he may not have any formal Coaching Certificates.
BUT as one of the best forwards of his era at a PRACTICAL level instead of on paper.He would still make a great forwards coach.
When the golden oldies have retired hopefully he will be RE-APOINTED and build on his 6Ns gains of last year thru to 2015.

'build on his 6Ns gains of last year'

What gains might they be?
Wouldn't it have been a good idea to use those 'gains' during the WC?

If we're honest it was a pretty unimpressive 6N victory.

We played pretty well to beat Wales away.
We thrashed Italy at home, but that just happens sometimes.
We had two dodgy home victories against France and Scotland.
We got absolutely caned in Ireland.

It was great to win it, but if Johnson stays then I hope it's not purely on the back of that.

english_osprey wrote:'build on his 6Ns gains of last year'

What gains might they be?
Wouldn't it have been a good idea to use those 'gains' during the WC?

England did win the 6 nations you know? I guess that's what he means by "gains". England were beaten by France in the world cup - the team that came 2nd and nearly won it. They struggled to put away Argentina, but then the All Blacks didn't look comfortable for the first half of their game. Scotland, as ever, raised their game against England but England found a way to win it.

No where near the finished article but we look better than we did 3 years ago and at times (e.g. the Australia game) we've looked very good - it's not all doom and gloom. There are good arguments for getting rid of MJ and good ones to keep him. Personally I say give him a year and the option to replace any of the coaches he wants to. In that time I expect us to win the 6 nations or come second to an exceedingly good other side as a minimum. Ideally we would get to see some AIs too at the end of his year and I would expect a couple of wins. If, after one year he hasn't achieved what I said, someone new has a few seasons to sort it out. Most importantly however, the 1 year gives us time to sort out the farce that is the RFU so that the replacement (if there is one) is chosen by the team at the RFU who will be in charge for a while and will have the full backing of the system behind them. If we get someone else in now then they are on a hiding to nothing because the rest of the structure above is in complete disarray.

Sort the RFU out first, then worry about the manager and coaches.

EO England tried to play a balanced game of Rugby around a young team
with Toby Flood pulling the reigns.
Come RWC Johnson decided tho old RWC formula and experiece was the way to go.
In the 6Ns the more balanced approach enabled victories over Australia and
won them a 6Ns title.
Come the RWC back come Johnny Wilkinson as the play maker,with his more
Conservative approach.
HE is no longer the JW of 2003,his distrbution was`nt his strongest point he was there.To put you in the right area and Kick Goals,he did THAT [Just] but his goalkicking was poor by his standards.
The perception that England were going to win this RWC or even reach the final was ludicrously optimistic.
Given the back up with the RFU in chaos I doubt anyone else would have done better.
The off-field antics of the team has been overdone,many teams had similar problems.
It has always gone on,BUT when everyone has a camera and recorder built into there mobile phone.
Then can earn a quick buck selling it to the local rag,its pitiful Players don`t live in goldfish bowls.
Perhaps you still live in 2003 and thik SCW is the answer to all ill`s,maybe he is as a Supremo figure.
Let Johnson or his successor start as soon as possible,and get 2015 in mind.
Wales and England both have young sides Wales did very well in the RWC within there limitations.
Head to head over the years with Comps and games there is little between them.[a matter of a couple of wins difference].
The Old Guard changes players like Ashton are great to watch,IF they get the Ball.THE half backs job[both] is to get it to him quickly and regularly JW won`t do that.

In a deeply dissappointing way the RFU and media have turned many casual England fans into '66 bores'

Because we have one the damn RWC once it is now absolutely expected by the press that we should win it again and if we don't look like we are then it is a shambolic shoddy national crisis and everyone should be hung.

What Bollox.

Clive Woodward in his first few years lead England on the 'tour of hell' where we were thrashed by OZ & NZ and the 1999 RWC where we were dumped out in the quarter finals by SA. We are well aware of what happened in 2003 with CW still at the helm.

Why do most teams understand the idea of a long term plan but with England it is a case of SACK EVERYONE IN SIGHT everytime we lose a game. We are not Welsh for gods sake.

But having said that... the WRU do seem to have learned the importance of some stability and even though Gatts has had his rough patches Wales do seem to be improving.

Long view my friends.... the long view.

MJ will still be at the helm (I hope so) in 2015.

One change I would like to see is that players are picvked on current FORM, not because they once won something or play for the right team.

We need to stop picking on reputation rather than using those who are actually any good. IMO Wilkinson, Moody and Mears should not have gone to the RWC - 2 of them were at best, poor and Mears was hardly used. And what about good players not getting the game time? Wood is one of our best developing players but was shown the sideline as soon as Moody turned up with bandages holding his knackered knee together. Simpson was taken to NZ but had 20 minutes of game time. These guys are good. Use them!

Let's start looking for a decent 12 to play inside Manu who has become our first choice 13 by some margin. There's plenty to choose from but the management have been stubborn in persevering with Hape and Flutey then trying to use a 10 there. IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

Mr Bounce wrote:One change I would like to see is that players are picvked on current FORM, not because they once won something or play for the right team.

We need to stop picking on reputation rather than using those who are actually any good. IMO Wilkinson, Moody and Mears should not have gone to the RWC - 2 of them were at best, poor and Mears was hardly used. And what about good players not getting the game time? Wood is one of our best developing players but was shown the sideline as soon as Moody turned up with bandages holding his knackered knee together. Simpson was taken to NZ but had 20 minutes of game time. These guys are good. Use them!

Let's start looking for a decent 12 to play inside Manu who has become our first choice 13 by some margin. There's plenty to choose from but the management have been stubborn in persevering with Hape and Flutey then trying to use a 10 there. IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

Agree with much of this - there are a few players that have been getting repeatedly selected because of what they did 8 years ago, not what they can do now. As for building the team towards 2015, I think many of the foundations are in place (a front row of Corbisiero, Hartley and Cole should improve with time, Youngs and Flood on decent form are a quality pair of halfbacks and 3 of the back 4 are cemented in place at teh moment, with only Cueto's eventual replacement to be decided on).

Problem positions? We need to identify the right 2nd row partner for Lawes (and get CL bulked up a bit)
12 - Hape isn't good enough, Flutey has faded, playing a 10 there didn't work (especially in the absence of a ball carrying 8 as well - Manu became virtually the only powerful ball carrier in the team against France). Pick one of the younger guys and give them a ru of games to see how they go - Allen or 36 would have the advantage of club familiarity with those around them, but Barritt and Turner-Hall must also be in the reckoning.

Brings us to the back row - Do we have a specialist 7? Do we have an up and coming dynamic 8? Is Croft the best partner for both, or do we need the greater power of a Wood or Robshaw?

As for MJs position - I think at the moment it's irrelevant to discuss this because of the absence of an RFU hierarchy. Got to get the RFUs house in order before anything happens within the England coaching setup. I suspect that Johnno may be offered a 12 month extension, with an assessment at the end to see how close he is to answering the questions that now exist over his selection policy and ability to control the players.

So if Manu has a bad few games and someone new has a good couple of games is he dropped? How bad a run do you need before you're dropped? How long a run of good performances do you need before you're picked? Does partnerships come into it? I a couple of players are doing badly indivdually but well together do we keep picking them? What about if we have a good performing team the latest Sky favourite is having a stormer? Do we distrupt the team to shove them in.

Picking on form should one factor in selection, another is experience (including playing with other team members), another is skills (do they have certain skills that are required in the team that another 'better' player doesn't have?)

HammerofThunor wrote:So if Manu has a bad few games and someone new has a good couple of games is he dropped? How bad a run do you need before you're dropped? How long a run of good performances do you need before you're picked? Does partnerships come into it? I a couple of players are doing badly indivdually but well together do we keep picking them? What about if we have a good performing team the latest Sky favourite is having a stormer? Do we distrupt the team to shove them in.

Picking on form should one factor in selection, another is experience (including playing with other team members), another is skills (do they have certain skills that are required in the team that another 'better' player doesn't have?)

Correct.

You need the incumbent to be playing badly and the replacement to be playing very well for more than one or tow games before chopping and changing. Otherwise you'd never have the same XV on the pitch in any two games.

My problem with MJ is that England play with a woeful lack of any obvious game plan. What is England's style? The Welsh try to play in a certain way that, when it works, is discernibly their own
He is loyal but to a foolish degree, retaining players clearly past their sell-by date such as Jonny and Tindall.
He is ultra-conservative. I agree with you emac, Flood did look good, but why not then have faith in him? Why go back to and then stick with a clearly out of sorts JW?
His selection policies can be baffling. Why Flood at 12 against France? Why not play an actual 12? What sort of message is that to your speciality 12's?
Where was our relacement specialist 7 if the unimagineable happened and Moody got injured or blood replaced?

MT - How long is the long view. How many years has had? How many does he need? This time 4 years ago we had just lost a WC final. Now we have just lost a definately winnable QF. The team come across as a disorganised rabble both on and off the pitch. Who's fault is that? Doesn't MJ have a little to do with that side of things?


emac
'Perhaps you still live in 2003 and thik SCW is the answer to all ill`s'

Why do you suppose that? I have no particular favourite as England manager but I know it can't be MJ for much longer. In fact his sacking/resignation will be one of the few positives to come out of the WC as far as England are concerned

EO for me the problem is this under SCW his overall record especially the early years was`nt flash.In the 1999 RWC ,afterwards most teams knee jerk reaction is dump them.
Start again,BUT at some point you have to stick with what you have last year.England and MJ went for a younger side with Flood at half back,BUT
such is the pressure of RWC and the expectations on England MJ reverted to the old formula.
ONCE the RFU is sorted,a clean sheet get the coaches in,whoever decide HOW you want to play the game get the players selected with the basic skills to play that game.It is important there is some flexiblility a Pan A and B to fall back on.
It is a fine line between picking on form and on reputation,BUT you have to have an experienced spine.
MOST teams base there Test side on there best club side or sides,Englands 12/13 hase been subject of debate for some time.
Tuilagi is a real talent,but is not YET the finished article,the trend now is for a crash bash mid field,like Jamie Roberts for example.
THE best 13 in World Rugby is Conrad Smith a specialist 13,all the skills,plus a brain.Never misses a tackle,All Blacks defensive king pin.
Inside him Nonu or SBW do crash .bash/offload bit,HE runs the lines feeds the others who score.
An extreme example I admit,BUT England have incredible resources in players and money.More than any other nation in the world.
I am an Anglo -Scot and my First support is, as it has always been THE ALL BLACKS.
BUT I still support my native teams too,the Flood /Wilkinson link failed NOT because it was perhaps a bad idea.
BUT because the England backs were unfamiliar with it,when Carter started Aron Mauger was inside him.
HE took over the play making from time to time doing the left /right kicking axis.
Like Flutey he was a 5/8 happy at 10 or 12 all the basics,plus a useful goal kicker.
What is needed now as much as possible is continuity in team selection for the next four years.

english_osprey wrote:
MT - How long is the long view. How many years has had? How many does he need? This time 4 years ago we had just lost a WC final. Now we have just lost a definately winnable QF. The team come across as a disorganised rabble both on and off the pitch. Who's fault is that? Doesn't MJ have a little to do with that side of things?

I'd say the long view is 2015. Whatever the result he should move on then. Don't want to keep banging on about CW but it took him years to develop the structure around him and the team he needed before he started to produce significant results. Why does anyone suppose this should be different for MJ? If England were to grand slam the 6N this year (note I said "If") a lot of his critics would be very quiet.

I don't think MJ is the problem.

The problem is that shuffling brigade of incontinents at the RFU and the shambles they have become. "squeeky" Andrews and his constant interfering and job protectionism and a bunch of coaches who were long in the tooth and had no new ideas when they worked for Brian Ashton!!

Martin Johnson and his cronies will of course stay. The overrated Woodward is not the answer either. Woodward took the glory, led the Lions to humiliation and had left the England side in disarray with no world class players between 2004 and now.

I would try to persuade Jake White to leave his current post.

I agree that Martin Johnson should stay as Manager. A knee-jerk reaction to another person. is just that: a knee-jerk reaction. But some of his assistants really do need to go.

No doubts MJ did make some poor selections:
Moody, who was terrific last year before his most recent injury, was simply off form, and should not have played.
Tindall's style works only against certain teams, and more creativity was needed.
Deacon is a nice club player, but except for the rare exception has not shown as an International lock.
Tom Wood was England's player of the 6N. He was desparately needed on the pitch.
And this is just what I can think of at the moment.

But I think this goes deeper. England's approach was still predicated on a strong front row. In New Zealand this year, it was very average which unhinged all other game plans. To me, it was a huge mistake not to recognise this.

MT
Agree with you of course re the RFU - pathetic really

My problem wih MJ was not our stumbling, bumbling 6N win. But, as mentioned, MJ's apparent lack of any sort of plan or style of play. Did any England game in that series give you any sort of pleasure, not counting the actual victory?

I think it's really immaterial who we play in what position as long as we insist on our stone-age tactics of smashing the ball up and then hoping something might develop if we slowly and reluctantly give the ball out to the backs.

MJ, with respect, doesn't strike me as the sort of coach with the flexibility of mind necessary to impose any sort of coherent, free-flowing game plan on his players. Players I must add, in my opinion, certainly capable of playing in such a style.

it does amaze me after watching how well we played against the aussies in 2010 how we went back to this cagey disjointed looking rugby