Honest Debate, was this a great RWC for Wales considering who they beat and who they didnt?

First topic message reminder :

Irrespective of what style the Welsh team played in the RWC, or how much the team has improved in the last year or so. Was this really a great RWC for Wales?

Of course a semi-final appearence is something to note. However this is marred by who Wales beat and who they didnt and at what crucial times.

Even slight losses are bad, especially matches teams were in a position to win, rugby after all like all sport is about winning. Wales are not a team like Samoa who if they run a classic superpower close, the galliant loss should be noted and heralded as the maximum performance the team could of put in.

Wales should and could beat teams like SA, Aus and certainly Fra.

My point is that, if you ignore the structure of the competition, Wales's record is unspectacular. Wins over Namibia (worst team in RWC); Samoa and Fiji (sides which in reality are the SH's version of Italy but worse) and Ireland in a 1/4 final.

Only one of those victories is remotely special. Ireland like most home nations teams are usually equally matched, so a victory is hard, but not rare. The only thing that puts the victory over Ireland into anything other than 'another match, another year' was that it was knockout rugby.

However, when you consider that victories for NH teams over SH are rare, rarer still for Wales, they failed to get a result that would of gone down in history. Once again Wales failed to kill the game in an important fixture, all three games they lost at this RWC should of been won, but they choked (leaving aside the passionate debate on the france game).

In the cold light of day it is business as usual for Wales. They beat three minowes, beat a side of their size and lost against the big boys. I don't want to see Wales just losing to big sides, I want to see them win and win trophies so that it matters. There have been far too many 'brave' loses against big sides and scant victories.

What do people think?

cabbagesandbrussels wrote:hahahaha! The word "t*sser" was replaced with "naughty naughty boy"!

I chuffing love this site!

you serious lol, how funny- i get red text and once a ban , you have a resident proof writer!

Wales had a good world cup, especially consdering expectations.

However, they put themselves in position to have had a great world cup.

A shame, but with the youth in the team and under Warburton hopefully they can push on and the inconsistency in previous performances will disappear.

As I ahvesaid before if some said to me prior to the WC we would:

Make the Semis and lose only by 1 point

Finish Fourth

Play some great rugby

Find some more talent

See the back row develop into something special for the future

See Charteris and Bennett (ys i know) have great WC

See Phillips and Roberts get back to Lions best

Then I woul have bitthier hand off and suggested they see a shrink, in the case ofBennett I would have asked for a pint of what they are drinking.

For me what is now FAR more important that the WC is that its not another one of our Peaks followed by Trough as we seem to have in Wales.

If we can push on and start by beating Australia ib Dec then into the 6 Nations I will be very happy.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Wales must carry on this good form now into the 6N. Some average results there will undo all the good work they´ve done in NZ.

Exactly right.

What- 'Naughty, Naughty boy', Matron, Matron , they're picking on me again, and i've not even had my medication, how bad is that!!

naughty naughty boy

It works!

Wales had a very good RWC 2011, but it leaves me somewhat concerned about fundamental issues that i think are more mental than anything else. Pressure and the big game is the crux of Wales performance management going forward

By comparison with our aspirations we realistically expected to lose to Fiji and/or Samoa and go out at the group stage.

Although Ireland briefly bucked the trend i felt that the summer warm ups were key to momentum and Wales did what i wanted which was to win 2/3 including beatign England in Cardiff

The apparently fortuitous injury to SJ letting RP in at 10 heralded a perf against SA that laid down a 1 point marker right away. A missed kick cost us the game but the signs were all good. It proved we could run SH sides close, very fecking close in a hellish group and the result worked for us because it put the pressure on and we had to play knockout rugby from game 2. A cricket score v Namibia gave the kids a fun run out and a nervy perf v Samoa put 1 monkey firmly back in his box, lamentable Fiji followed and although it was evident from Game 1 we could qualify, Wales rep v PI teams mean't this was never certain until we put Fiji to the sword.

So a 1/4 final ensued and we convincingly beat the Irish. The group and the nature of our qualification had built a very confident outfit and even although Ireland had in one fell swoop brought themselves to he brink by beating Aus after a dreadful summer, they fell. We won whilst still missing 9 points of the boot and there lay the principle reasonWales were back in familiar territory, a semi v France in NZ, their 2nd ever.

But then the wheels fell off. RP injury was such a great disruption and Hook cannot ever fill those shoes. I do believe the great sides make their luck, in 2005 for the Slam we did it against England and France and again v England in 2008 we went came back and finished teams off. Against Sctoland in 2010 possibly the greatest end of a rugby match you will ever see. Catch up rugby. We like to chase, it gives us focus and tempo. Mentally it causes the team to switch on and as was shown in the first 10 v SA the top 2 inches are often absent in Welsh rugby. The next wheel fell off when we lost Jones to another calf injury. This guy is the foundation of our scrum and i knew against the French scrum we would suffer, but it seemed that with the likes of Warbs, Charteris, Lyds Faletau Philipps and Roberts rampaging we could do this and justifiably claim our rightful place in the RWC Final 2011.

But then Warburton went. And with him went our heart if not our capacity to win. His dismissal rocked Wales and we went on to miss another 9 points losing by another point. 2 points 2 losses.

That is our problem. Having the extra mental gear to deal with a disrupted gameplan. And being hapy to chase our own lead not chase the opposition. Tempo is how we score tries and that has been found in the past because we always shipped 15 in 15 minutes in the 1st half and then had to raise our game to play catch up. Mentally Wales have a chasing mindset and that is what we need to change. Against ireland they came out of the traps the way oppostions usually do to Wales and it was amazing to see. But it rocked Ireland from the get go and put us in charge while forcing the irish gameplan

That fundamental change, associated with a change of emphasis to rely on a solid set piece, is both our undoing at this RWC and also our future.

or you couold put it simple,scrub out the essay and say wales need a better mental game.

Gatts

I don't think that losing a game when playing with 14 men for 60 minutes is a sign of mental weakness. Similarly with the loss to South Africa. There are so many turning points in a game that a couple of losses isn't enough to draw any significant conclusions about mental weakness. If in a year's time we're looking back on a whole load of narrow losses which Wales could have avoided then it may be time for you to worry, but I think it's too early to call that an issue.

tomathy wrote:Gatts

I don't think that losing a game when playing with 14 men for 60 minutes is a sign of mental weakness. Similarly with the loss to South Africa. There are so many turning points in a game that a couple of losses isn't enough to draw any significant conclusions about mental weakness. If in a year's time we're looking back on a whole load of narrow losses which Wales could have avoided then it may be time for you to worry, but I think it's too early to call that an issue.

SA 1 point
France 1 point
Aus 3 points

35 missed points off the boot.

This is not a new trend either, we often run Aus and SA close

mystiroakey wrote:or you couold put it simple,scrub out the essay and say wales need a better mental game.

confused again eh, yes i should have dumbed it down and made it more simple for you

A very fair and well reasoned post Gatts. The great thing is that a good number of this squad will still be around in four years time, and hopefully even hitting the peak of their game round about that time.

For a large part of the squad, it was their first experience of playing in a World Cup, and it will definately have been a positive one. The fact that we very nearly beat South Africa in the group stages, and then France in the semi will have given our younger players a huge amount of confidence. It will also give them a calmness the next time we find ourselves in a similar position, which was perhaps missing this time around.

Personally though, I think we also need to look to bring through more younsters in those positions in which some of the guys who played for us in this tournament will be retiring before the next.

The transition needs to start happening now. The younger players who featured for us in this World Cup will need to become the 'old heads' over the next couple of seasons or so, and we need to look at blooding more of the younger players from the regions in the tour later this year, and in the 6N.

Gatts wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:or you couold put it simple,scrub out the essay and say wales need a better mental game.

confused again eh, yes i should have dumbed it down and made it more simple for you

not bad

I think the match in December against the ozzies will be a sign of whether the boys have the mental edge. That is a game to put it quite bluntly we have to win if we have any aspirations of being a top side.

The Ozzies will have been on holiday for a few weeks and will be rusty and in wet wales instead of Oz in the summer. Our players will have continued to play top quality rugby in the HEC and pro14. We should have our TH prop, 10, openside and captain, first choice hooker all back.

With a side that looks somthing(no hook or phillips as they are in france) like this we must win.

1. Gethin
2. Smiler
3. Adam
4. Charteris
5. AWJ
6. Lydiate
7. Sam (c)
8. Faletau
9. Lloyd W
10. Priestland
11. Shane
12. Roberts
13. JD
14.North
15. Halfpenny

16. Hibbard
17. Paul James
18. Bradley
19. McCusker
20. Tavis
21. Henson
22. Scott Williams

Tycroes,

I liked that side (though not sure if Rees is fit) right down until I got to No21 WTF.

As far as I am concerned we need to forget about him until he has had a full uninterupted (by injury or TV) season behind him.

If we not considering Jones then Tovey should be given a shot at putting pressure on Priestland.

Also as much as it pains me still to say this Bennett deserves to be involved at mo.

Yeah look for us it is a must win as you say

Is stoddart fit?

i like GH on the bench good shout i think he will make it with no hook as long as he gets 3 or 4 games in between now and then and crucially isn't crocked again

Ah I just threw him in for the hell of it . could be tovey, wellies, biggar even although that would be depressing.

Im interested to see where he gets picked for the HEC and how he goes.

Stoddart is due to be making come back nest few weeks or so which might make him available, or would it be too much of rush for him and Rees maybe?

smiler is playing this weekend i beleve.

Wales had if they are realistic a good RWC,I doubt expectations of more than a S/F appearence was anticipated.
They had the hardest group to get out off,ran the Boks very close and France too with 14 men.
They have a good young team with North,Falatau,Warburton and Priestland
having outstanding ones.
Losing Warburton /Priestland may have been the difference between a final place or not.
The Bronze match although AUS deserved the win ,better goal kicking could
still have won that match.
For me Berrick Barnes is a better option than Quade Cooper at 10,you don`t have to hide him defensively.
On attack he ismore orthodox,but isn`t liable to implode like Cooper under pressure.

"]

english warrior wrote:England are the laughing stock of World Rugby ??

Well, my little Welsh minnows, that may be true, but where does that leave you, as we have won a World cup, beaten SH opposition home and away on 14 consecutive occasions and won the 6 nations this year, oh, and also beaten Australia home and away, and Wales haven't. Oh dear, oh dear, you've beaten ireland and now you are World beaters. Oh well 10 out of 10 for optimism!!

You're obviously a proud fan so it must be galling knowing you lost to the minnows at the last outing.

english warrior wrote:England... have beaten SH opposition home and away on 14 consecutive occasions

You do know what 'consecutive' means, don't you?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

english warrior wrote:England... have beaten SH opposition home and away on 14 consecutive occasions

You do know what 'consecutive' means, don't you?

Consecutive WINNING occassions?

Its a bit like the majority of 2009 Lions being Welsh

Gatts, while I agree with what you're saying in parts, I think the one thing Wales have shown this World Cup is a very good mental attitude, in comparison with what they've shown in the past.

The thing thats let us down (and has affected a number usually very good,reliable international kickers) is kicking the points from the tee.

Usually, if we went down that quickly to SA, it'd have taken us a little while to regain any sort of composure. Against Ireland as you say we came out guns blazing and looked assured.

And especially against France, our best openside/tighthead/fly-half down, with our captain missing, we came back and were the better team for nearly 60 minutes. Missing kicks lost us that game, a side with a poor mental attitude would not have come back the way we did.

That's a good point, Comfort. You'd expect a team that went a man down after less than twenty minutes in a World Cup semi final to go on to get tonked. That doesn't take away the disappointment of losing the game due to missed kicks, but let's not underestimate how well we did just to be in a position where a successful kick would have won it.

Exactly luckless, our mental attitude throughout was spot on. If it wasnt we wouldnt be so gutted about the games we lost, we put ourselves in a number of positions to win each match but poor execution of kicking let us down. This side want to win things, they really want to win things.

I think that a factual analysis of the Welsh campaign is in order-


Group stage - Lost to SA
- Beat Fiji
- Beat Samoa
- Beat Namibia

Quarter finals - Beat Ireland

Semi Final - Lost to france

third place - Lost to Australia


Nope, i've looked and looked, and done a bit of lateral thinking and analysis and STILL for the life of me can't see what it is that makes a GREAT, not good Welsh wc.
Lost to SA, France, and Australia, but did win well against Ireland, but nothing to suggest that they are World shakers or movers inwaiting. Lads with all my exhaustive analysis i just can't see it! Can you??

warrior, i'd hardly call that exhaustive analysis

you need to look at each game in context to get a real idea of whether it was great or not, the result is only the tip of an in-depth game analysis iceberg.

As I said, and I think most would agree, it was a good world cup for Wales considering the expectations we all had before, half the fans (including welsh fans) thought we'd be knocked out at the group stage. So to end up finishing fourth, we all would have grabbed that had it been offered pre-tournament.

Alas, I think Wales had a good world cup, but they put themselves in the position to have a great world cup. But I dont think we've seen anywhere near the best that these youngsters can produce. So hopefully, we can have a great 6 nations and push on.

you clearly arent very good at analysis are you. Other than the all blacks,

Wales have most tries scored, fewest tries conceded, best tackle success rate, most points scored in group games fewest points against. scrum and lineout success of 80+%. we have four players in the team of the tournament according to teh NZ Herald (4 more than england) we lost our three games to a toal points difference of 5 points whilst we have a kick success rate of 58%.

I would gauge that as a success we have a clear failing that cost us important games and that was our kick success rate. Even so that was a better successful kick rate than Englands.

Oh and what makes it a real success for me is that our team behaved with dignity and manners ,making them the perfect role models for the young generation of aspiring players watching them at home. Wales return home with reputations enhanced and the foundations of a very good team in place. Thats a success in my eyes.

England by contrast, well most dwarves thrown, most women harrassed, most players fined, most pints drunk, most dives made. England behaved with such ill mannered arrogance that the people of New Zealand were glad to see the back of them.

England face internal civil war, a caretaker coach until sir clive comes to rescue them after the olympics, a youth system that is not promoting the talent in the system and a club system awash with foreign imports, a manager who wont resign, a chairman nobody trusts. Id rather be welsh and a village idiot than have Englands catalogue of shame on my plate.

Hang on, the question of this thread is "was this a great RWC for Wales considering who they beat and who they didn't?". This suggests that we are discussing on the basis of results, for Wales (ie using Wales's level beforehand as a yardstick). Now IMO when Wales beat Ireland but lost to SA, France and Australia you just can't call it a "great" world cup. It was good, not great.

However, if you are considering other factors such as promise for the future, the manner of the defeats (all tight, including a great effort with 14 men against France), there is an argument for saying this was a great world cup. From a purely results orientated viewpoint (as the question suggests) it wasn't.

mad you could however look at previous world or recent games therefore

it was very good for wales because they didnt loose to any team below them in the rankings and they have plenty of times before.

the above comment is perhaps the truest reflection of wales acheivement- but i am guessing neither side on this debate like it so it will slide

Tycroesosprey- It was, as you say a poor WC for England, but maybe after being in the last 2 finals they could be forgiven.

But as a result of this poor WC England are ranked 4th and Wales are now down to eigth.

So a Great WC has seen the Welsh go down in the rankings, i mean do the stats Lie?

Positives:
Semi finalists
Played well
Excellent fitness
Bright young talent, particularly backrow.

Negatives:
Missed too many crucial kicks
Can they win the tight encounters?

Ultimately the positives outweigh the negatives. Look at it as you are in the best shape out of the NH sides.

beshocked wrote:Positives:
Semi finalists
Played well
Excellent fitness
Bright young talent, particularly backrow.

Negatives:
Missed too many crucial kicks
Can they win the tight encounters?

Ultimately the positives outweigh the negatives. Look at it as you are in the best shape out of the NH sides.

+1, well said Beshocked.

Referring back to the thread title, personally I'd say Wales had a good RWC. Not quite a "great" one, but could have been a whole lot worse.

Quarter final = ok
Semi final=good
Realistic chance of making the final=great

Slart- What about winning the darn thing, not just getting there, because England have won the cup and been in 2 other finals, so F""kin fantastic if you actually win it.

Mind you, all you Celts are going to have to take my word on that because when your team wins the 'World cup' Great doesn't cover it!!

I think it's been a great RWC when taking into consideration expectations prior to the start of the tournament and the route that Wales had to travel to reach the SF's. Not many in or outside Wales were actually sticking their necks out and predicting a top 4 finish and the AI games against Samoa and Fiji ensured that a group stage exit was never off the cards. It makes quite a fairytale considering the history against the PI and the style to avenge the misery four years previously.

I don't think that anyone expected us to turn up so competitively against the top sides either. Only lack of a little extra composure prevented us from turning over the champs right at the dawn of their title defence, that will have been one for the history books. So to will a couple of extra points have made the French game.

Yes, this has been a great World Cup under the circumstances but could mean so much more depending on how we follow it up. Doubts as to what we're capable of doing will now have been dismissed, time to push on.

english warrior wrote:Slart- What about winning the darn thing, not just getting there, because England have won the cup and been in 2 other finals, so F""kin fantastic if you actually win it.

Mind you, all you Celts are going to have to take my word on that because when your team wins the 'World cup' Great doesn't cover it!!

So you agree then, if Wales won the WC then it would have been fantastic. They didn't but had a good stab, so it was great.

I can't see why you're getting so worked up

english warrior wrote:Slart- What about winning the darn thing, not just getting there, because England have won the cup and been in 2 other finals, so F""kin fantastic if you actually win it.

Mind you, all you Celts are going to have to take my word on that because when your team wins the 'World cup' Great doesn't cover it!!

Its all about perspective though English. ABs have won it twice and appeared in another final. Seems like many NH fans just say they are cheating bar****ds who choke and are favoured by the ref. Not many have mentioned good let alone great.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Id rather be welsh and a village idiot than have Englands catalogue of shame on my plate

Can you get that put on a t-shirt? The print might have to be quite small

Or maybe it's a new single by the Stereophonics?

Thanks safe I was rather pleased with that sentence.

I was thinking we could have a picture of Martin johnson on the back of the said t shirt being bent over and shafted by Rob Andrew Whilst SCW watches sipping champagne with a knife behind his back.

have you guys got your 2011 rugby world cup 4th place t shirts printed yet, and if so how much are they going for?

what you mean like those "England Grandslam 2011" t-shirts?

I believe were still waiting for the England grand slam champions t shirts to be recycled so we can get a good deal on the blanks before printing. There are also a number of Tindall'S Stag do t-shirts floating around, washed only once in Aukland Harbour maybe we can get a deal there.

TycroesOsprey wrote:I believe were still waiting for the England grand slam champions t shirts to be recycled so we can get a good deal on the blanks before printing. There are also a number of Tindall'S Stag do t-shirts floating around, washed only once in Aukland Harbour maybe we can get a deal there.

apparently theres no extra smalls left, they only had 1 or 2 but Tindall threw them away on a a night out

Kiwi - u watched the final yet sober?

Riskysports wrote:Kiwi - u watched the final yet sober?

Nope. Worked late Monday, met up with Aslongasbut100... for some beers Tuesday, and my flatmate had control of the remote when I got home last night.

I suspect it'll be the weekend.

Kiwi- When you've watched the final in a less than inebriated state, it may well occur to you that after seeing Jouberts performance , you might want to indulge in a few more drinks to reflect on just what that man did for the AB's.

If Joubert doesn't get an Honour from the NZ government, then there isn't any justice in the world!