Bloody vandals.....

First topic message reminder :

At least that is what I will be shouting from the top of the dunes whilst waving my hickory chipper at trump and his cronies.

Anyway here are the latest photos of the greatest course in the world.

Spoiler:

I wonder if the main aspect of his business model is the sale of balls in the pro shop, you will certainly need a few given the playing corridors are totally surrounded by deep rough.

Thanks Doon. I do remember the story but not the result.

I do remember from A level Law trespassing is a civil offence rather than criminal. Maybe Trump should erect signs that say trespassers will be persecuted rather than prosecuted.

Blimey that looks tough.Was to be expected I suppose.prize for the first poster to play it?

It could be quite funny if he has a mass trespass on his opening day.

Maybe not, he would get worldwide free publicity.

There was a bit of a huffle up here a few years ago when Royal Troon quietly tried to get a right of way diverted. Nae chance.

A right of way actually stopped me practising golf as often as I would have liked when I lived with my parents. Towards the back of my parents land there was an area that was not kept as garden so you could hit shots without worrying about hacking up the grass. Sadly a right of way passed through it so I was stopped from hitting balls in case a thinned ball caught a walker. Just think I could have been the next tiger.

McLaren wrote:A right of way actually stopped me practising golf as often as I would have liked when I lived with my parents. Towards the back of my parents land there was an area that was not kept as garden so you could hit shots without worrying about hacking up the grass. Sadly a right of way passed through it so I was stopped from hitting balls in case a thinned ball caught a walker. Just think I could have been the next tiger.

Or hanging about in parks, perhaps the next Robert Black

Yes very funny super, maybe you could have been the next Piers Morgan had you not managed to be even more intellectually challenged than he is.

If you'll recall Mac, it's me with the Masters and you with just an undergraduate degree

Has anyone seen the article in today's Scotsman regarding the progress of Trump's course at Balmedie (no mention of "Great Dunes" Gael)

Sorry Gael, Mac and Op, but it looks AMAZING!!!

SR

Hawtree looks to have built something wonderful.
Dempster is no fool and he seems to be very impressed.

Is it me being a bit picky but I think the very square tees look odd against the flowing natural look of the rest of the design.

For those wanting to read the article it is on the Scotsman's website.
Someone clever could maybe be kind enough to link it.

Perhaps being a bit critical about the shape of the tee boxes, but I can see what you mean.

I like the rule where you must WALK the course. Carts only allowed for the disabled.

Link is here - http://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/donald_trump_on_course_to_produce_something_special_1_1967575

Looks very good and a very good write up, but might not look so nice when the sun isn't shining and it's freezing, which will be more often than not in that part of the world.

I think it is amazing how good people are at enhancing photos, not to say that these one have not been touched up, but seeing it in the flesh so to speak, it might look a lot different from the photo's.

Cheers for that desperado, an interesting read. Despite all the critics, I'm very tempted to splash the cash to play it. Bookings are now being taken via the website for when the course opens next year. "Special" offer of only £150, lot of money but other places charge even more for courses that may not be as good.

I'm expecting this to debut in the top 20 when the next lot of course rankings appear after it opens.

oldparwin wrote:I think it is amazing how good people are at enhancing photos, not to say that these one have not been touched up, but seeing it in the flesh so to speak, it might look a lot different from the photo's.

I know what you mean Op, things like perspective and light can be altered to make it look better, and things always look different in person, but I think the hole in question looks very good indeed and very much different to what I expected. I think it also answers the question of fairway width and rough harshness.
People always say that Augusta looks less impressive in the flesh, but I'd still like to play it.

I would be happy to play most courses, but cannot see it being on my wish list of courses I would love to play, and with Trump being involved in it, it could be on my list of courses I would never play under any circumstances.

I wouldn't be too precious about such things. I don't really care who built it. If it's a top course, what's the point in conscientiously objecting?

oldpar

I certainly don't like the brash wiggy one either but the course is now going to happen whether we like it or not so we may as well play and enjoy it. No point cutting off your nose to spite your face

If Hitler built a good course I wouldn't object to playing it.

super_realist wrote:If Hitler built a good course I wouldn't object to playing it.

I'm sure the bunkers would be very penal if he did..............

ralphjohn69 wrote:'m sure the bunkers would be very penal if he did..............

Mac tells me Albert Speer was renowned for his Nazi era- golf course architecture.

The third hole on any of his courses are always called "Reich"

Does anyone know if all 18 holes are on the dune? I seem to recall from the planning stages reading somewhere that only nine holes were on the dune itself which, if correct, leaves the question of what are the other nine built on?

Gael, it's not a question of them being on the dune or not, rather which part of the dune, none of the course is actually built on the most dynamic motile embryo and foredunes, like St.Andrews, Dornoch, or similar links courses it is built partly on the much more stable mature Yellow and Grey dunes while other parts are built on dune heath and dune grassland.

The dune system will actually stretch 100's of metres inland beyond what is recognisable as dunes now, but has become more mature and with a higher percentage of organic material over time and supports a great variety of species, however it is still a soil with a high % of sand. The motile section of the dunes on the coastal side of the course will still continue to develop and move and over time the dune area actually expands towards the sea. So like St.Andrews in a few hundred years the course will be a considerable distance away from the sea, despite originally having been built much nearer and actually within the dune system itself.

super

that is an interesting insight into the dynamics of how the dunes eveolve. I was always under the impression that due to coastal erosion, sand dunes were being washed away rather than expanding?

Good news if they are expanding, in 500 years time I'll be able to play some fantastic 'new' links courses

Depends where you are d4s.
The east coast of Scotland is the fastest agrading (growing) sand dune area in the UK. There's a bit near me that has grown hundreds of metres since WW2, visible by the presence and position of anti tank blocks.
However in other areas material is lost, i.e Lincolnshire coast. There's a fairly predictable sediment cycle, and you only need to look at certain areas of the UK and the position of links courses to see which coastlines have grown outward and which have eroded.

Super.
I was surprised to see the word heather, more associated with upland links courses.
Do you know if it was there in a natural state or was it imported?

Depends how far you go inland Doon, the more mature sections of dunes could doubtless support it. Possibly imported/transferred though to be in the right place for the course design.
I once did a survey further up the road at the Sands of Forvie and there were was two or three species of heather in place there.

Serious question Super...what do you actually do for a living, or what have you been studying/researching? I'm beginning to find this kind of stuff fascinating.

I've kind of always taken for granted that the coastline and the links land/dunes are just there, never really gave a thought about how dynamic many of those places are. Thinking about it there are some striking examples in the South West with RND apparently engaged in quite a fight with the sea to save itself whilst further down the coast the dune movement around St Enodoc once buried a church!!!

JAS, I was a Civil Engineer for a number of years, specialising in Coastal and Flood Engineering. Great excuse to get out of the office more than the guys who just design roads, although you see your fair share of rotten weather mixed in with the good.
Don't work in that field anymore, but naturally still interested in it. I've a few concerns about the defences put up to protect the Old, Jubilee and Eden courses at St.Andrews actually.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMcn7ZAx3lY&feature=email

No joke, that music will be pumped out over the course through a vast tannoy system.

Ghastly bagpipes aside, it does look an outstanding course. Can't wait to play it.

Bagpipes the worst sound known to man why anyone would want to listen to such an infernal racket is beyond me.

Right that's the moan about pointless instrument out of the way now to the course:

Looks superb, can't wait for it to open and get up there to play it, -'ll happily grease trumps palm for a round on something that looks outstanding.

Am getting bored of all the trump bashing now though

I agree Mav, I absolutely cannot stand the bagpipes. If I were a sniper on the battlefield, the pipe player would be the first to get it between the eyes.

The Trump bashing is indeed tiresome. I can understand that he's a bumhole, but I bet if this was Branson or some other more socially acceptable businessman there would barely be a whimper. Professional protestors on the bandwagon again.

True he is a man sausage but what gets me is those professional protestors doing it for the sake of it, I'd bet half would like to play the course and would enjoy but would walk off complaining so as not to look like the tool they are.

We all have principles eyc but to constantly be offended on others behalf is imo childish! Must also have pretty empty lives to have to constantly have a cause to fight for

Interesting that after all these years you English guys are still scared of the sound of the bagpipes. Must be an inbred instinct.

Doon, I'm Scottish (unfortunately), I just don't like bagpipes or things that try to be "overly" Scottish.

Doon - I don't see the word "scared" used by anyone except you here. Irritated maybe, possibly to the point of wanting to pour battery acid in ones lug 'oles rather than suffer the pipes - but scared? Not a bit of it

Scared of bagpipes I can't think of anything less scary than a bag of wind!

Its more like a dose of thrush! An irritant!

Quite simply, it looks top quality, I quite like Donald Trump, and admire him, but even if I despised the man, it would not stop me wanting to play this course.

£150, seems great value, when I know i will cost me more than that to play TOC again, and I know I will still think it is drab!!

Going up in September with 3 pals - already looking forward to it!

Incidently, the jibe from doon about you English being scared of teh bagpipes is bang on, just look at how quick you all denied it!!!

Super as an “engineer” or whatever you are would you not agree that a green as close to that stream running out to the sea faces major troubles in not ending up washed out to sea in said stream?


I really don’t like how they have carved through some of the dunes instead of placing features between two dunes and the lack of width from the tee. I cannot watch the video at work but will spend some more time looking at it later. The bagpipes ensured I did not watch it again after posting the link.

Mac, don't doubt my experience as an Engineer you cheeky scamp.
I was initially taken aback by the location of the stream, although more by the proximity of the green to the sea than the burn (which I don't think will be a problem due to the free draining sub soil, drainage, attenuation, flow control etc, but also the banks of which can also be strengthened to ensure erosion is kept to a minimum)
Besides many courses have water features with no problems don't they?

Things like this Mac aren't done on a whim. There will have been wave and wind measurements in place long before to get an idea of which areas are affected, there may also have been engineering works in the inter-tidal zone to control the effect of longshore drift.

I get the impression that you think it was designed on the back of a fag packet and are looking for reasons for it to fail.
I can't imagine Trump and his design team are going to have to make an apology and wish they'd listen to Mac's advice.

It looks from an engineering point of view from what I can see from the video that they've done a very good job.
You also don't know whether they have carved through the dunes or not. You have never been there, and have clearly shown you don't have as good a grasp on coastal geomorphology as you like to think.

I'm not trying to deliberately have a go at you here, but even a sceptic of the project may possibly think that it looks better than they initially thought it might.

Super

I appreciate there are water features on links courses as we have; the swilken burn, water on 17/18 carnoustie, in front of 16th Turberry, in front of 7th north Berwick, but they are not on the beach.

I just imagined that the sort of burn on the sands would be a very fluid feature due to the soft nature of the sand and could pose problems as it moved.

I am actually really pushed to think of any other hole that actually sits practically on the beach, can anyone else think of an example?

When I said they carved through a dune I was basing that on the tee which looked to be placed on a dune that had been cut into and split into two sides. When I can watch the video I will tell you what time it happens and you can decide what you think they have done. It may just be a very geometric dune that happens to look unnatural despite being totally natural.

As to the quality of the design in general I think there might be a little too much trump and not enough Hawtree, by too much trump i mean even one tiny bit of input.

Trump has had input in all the courses he has put his name to, and although I havent visted any myself, people who have, in the main, have given glowing reports.

On the whole, having seen what I have of the one in Aberdeen, he may well have created something that could be described as the greatest golf clourse in the world - I will decide in September.

In the past couple of years I have played the two new 'top' courses in my region, Rockcliffe Hall, and Close House's Colt course, both of which were fantastic. AND the pictures I saw beforehand, despite probably being edited, went no way to doing either course justice!

The beauty of a golf course is mostly in how it plays, but add a pictureq ambience and some stunning looking holes, and that caps it off really for me

Mac/SR

I often walk my dog along Turnberry beach. The burn that runs out behind the Ailsa 4th tee has moved over 200 yards and back again in the space of one winter.

The Cooncil built a substantial footbridge over the burn to accomodate the coastal walk, it was washed away 6 month after they built it.

The tee and green of the 4th are on higher ground so the area in between is not vital to the hole but it gives you some idea of a wee burn emptying on to a beach.

My first thought of the Trump green was the same as my first thought on seeing the 4th at Turnberry.

Doon, the problem with councils is that having worked for one I know that they have to be seen to be doing something, regardless of how effective it might be. They also by and large have very little knowledge of coastal processes and so engineer solutions that are frequently inadequate for the job. I suspect something similar happened at turnberry.
The hole at trumps new course does look very close to the sea, but we can't see the whole picture so we don't know what soft or hard engineering lies beyond to protect the area. However, the area is actually agrading, meaning that the dunes are actually growing towards the sea so some protection will be afforded over time in any event.
I'm sure they have thought of it and made provisions.

One thing I will say is though that trump has been involved with many courses, while mac has only read a book by a Muppet called Doak. I wonder who knows more about course design and how to build one? Clue, its not the wizardess chaser.