Bloody vandals.....

First topic message reminder :

At least that is what I will be shouting from the top of the dunes whilst waving my hickory chipper at trump and his cronies.

Anyway here are the latest photos of the greatest course in the world.

Spoiler:

I wonder if the main aspect of his business model is the sale of balls in the pro shop, you will certainly need a few given the playing corridors are totally surrounded by deep rough.

NedB-H wrote:So they're actually having to plant species to make the course look how Trump wants????

Basically, yes. Marram grass is needed to stop sand blowing across the newly created fairways and greens.

Ridiculous, marram is the colonising species, if it's not present on the areas he wants it it's because those dunes have already been stabilised and other, later-succession plants have moved in. He should be embracing whatever species are there, not tearing them all out so he can put the one boring one that he wants back in. It's an SSSI for a reason.

Not quite Ned. The Menie dunes are supposed to be on the move which (apparently) makes them quite a rare phenomena. Trump is so ignorant he thought he was doing us all a favour by stabilising part of them but what he has done in effect is to stop part of a section in its tracks by planting marram grass in order to facilitate the creation of fairways and greens.

i'd be willing to wager all those stating what an eyesore it is, what a numpty trump is, how he's destroying scottish cultural heritage or whatever other guff is beig spouted about it, would all play it if they were ever given the chance to. I;d even go as far to say they'd probably enjoy the layout and challenges it presents, but because of their personalities would turn around and say it was awful, should never have been created blah, blah but are secretly inside happy they played a course they really enjoyed, but are just to proud to admit it.

He can call the place Trumps wonderful world of golf for all most serious golfers care, as long as the course is a good challenge what the hell does it matter. Whatever he has created it's likely to be a damnsite better challenge than TOC.

Just seems people jumping on a bandwagon of Trump hating and stating its bound to be crap because Trumps associated with it.

Well i'll categorically state right now, once it's opened i'll make the pilgrimage north to the land of Jock and part with my money, helping the local economy and play the course and reserve my judgement until I hole ot on the 18th green

They are now taking bookings for when the course opens next year, I've already asked the guys at my club if they fancy going up to play it. Looks like a bit of a cross between Carne and Enniscrone to me, two of the best of the many links courses I've played.

Two separate aspects to that Mav;
1).Trump is a really despicable figure, however he dignifies or desecrates Scotland, he's still a pig.

2).Let's hope he does have a gem on his hands; if he doesn't, and there are economic and environmental consequences, you can be sure he'll do a runner.

Kwini:

He may well be a pig, but then most people that become billionairres, ,ulti millionaires through business generally are but I would not judge them based on that simply because they had the desire to get there no matter what... I'd be willing to wager many people would drop a few of their principles to be as successful.

I do hope he has a gem on his hands as it could become a superior venue for years to come and lets be honest Aberdeen needs something to crowe about

With you 100% there Mav.

If the course is crap then it doesn't matter if it is Trump-inspired or someone much more credible. Conversely, if it's a place to play and enjoy them I don't care if it's Donald Duck that has insprired it

I've never made that pilgrimage to Scotland (yet) but hope to do it one day. As a proud Lancastrian who was turned into a Cumbrian by boundary changes I used to be close to the hallowed ground of golf's roots, but due to being exiled "daarn saarf" for the last 30 years I've never had the chance to play in Scotland. One day I hope to rectify that

Davie, if and when you do get the chance to go up to my homeland to sample the golfing delights, try to go in summer.

Which quite often falls on a Tuesday

drive4show wrote:Davie, if and when you do get the chance to go up to my homeland to sample the golfing delights, try to go in summer.

Which quite often falls on a Tuesday

Which tuesday is that D4S i'll try to go for that day, as the other 365 days of winter are slightly annoying

Mav

Therein lies the problem, summer can fall on any one of 52 Tuesdays!!

I see the issue D4S. So best to goup there play the course prepared for a day scaling everest then. When I think back I can't actually remember ever playing in Scotland on a sunny day.

Even when I did a 4 month stint up there as guard commander at the Barry Budden (correct me on spelling of that if required) I don't think I saw much other than rain, did get a fair few rounds in at Carnoustie though.

I don't judge Trump on the fact that he's a billionaire or a sometime bankrupt. Have great admiration for Buffett, Gates etc.
I judge him on his behaviour in the public domain, whether pauper or property king, and it is so beyond the pale that even his fellow Republicans have thrown him overboard.
Hopefully Aberdeen will have something to crow about because, as I say, he will swiftly file bankruptcy and leave behind a big mess for the tax-payers to clean up.

gaelgowfer wrote:Not quite Ned. The Menie dunes are supposed to be on the move which (apparently) makes them quite a rare phenomena. Trump is so ignorant he thought he was doing us all a favour by stabilising part of them but what he has done in effect is to stop part of a section in its tracks by planting marram grass in order to facilitate the creation of fairways and greens.

Cheers Gael.

I was assuming they were planting on dunes further inland than the main marram areas. The other possibility is that they're having to plant because they're building it on the foredunes where even the marram hasn't managed to colonise yet. Which is even more daft, because that's where the regeneration and growth of the dune system takes place... if they'd waited a couple of years it would've been marram anyway, but this way they risk wrecking the cycle of dune growth and ruining the whole system.

Not sure about the extent of Menie being unusual for "moving", or for anything else... I know a decent bit about dune systems generally, but I'm certainly no expert on local varieties or unusual sites! If there is something particularly special about Menie it just makes it even more damaging, whether it's Trump or anyone else. No doubt it'll be a spectacular course when all's done, but spectacular non-golfing coastline is sometimes better.

Well ya know what they say Maverick ... " a fool and his money are easily parted".

Incidentally, you're missing the point. The dunes are supposed to move - not be stabilised. It does not matter a whit that I or anyone else knew these dunes were supposed to be left to roam back and forth. They represent the biggest moving dunes in the british isles and, therefore, deserve protection. Sadly, Aberdeenshire Council decided to prostitute itself on the Trump altar in the mistaken belief that it would benefit the local economy when in fact the only economy it will benefit is Trump Inc.

There is also the matter of Trump's attempt to bully homeowners into selling their homes. Although he has gone on record as stating he will not apply for compulsory purchase orders, I'm certainly not taking that as a given. He is a nasty uncompromising individual but ... leave it to a "sassenach" to know better ... eh?

It's pretty clear that they are NOT building it on the fore dunes and are actually overlapping areas of yellow and grey dune.

It will not wreck any dune system any more than any other links course has ruined the dunes in which they nestle on and in. It will look perfectly natural in a couple of years.

This "spectacular" coastline without the course would probably have been seen by a few dogwalkers and bird shooters every year, now thousands of golfer will be able to play a great course and still enjoy a quality piece of coastline. The way people are talking you'd think he was going to line the coast with neon lights and fairgrounds.

For the record, all dune systems are mobile. There is a mobile and a stable section to all of them, and it's bloody obvious why. He's only stabilising a part of it, the parts that matter will still be mobile and continue to grow outwards to the sea as every other type of dune system does.

And Gael, would you kindly stop peddling this "sassenach" nonsense. You are making it sound that simply because you are SCottish then this qualifies you to know more about the project or why it shouldn't go ahead, and that anyone who isn't shouldn't have an opinion on the matter.

gaelgowfer wrote:They represent the biggest moving dunes in the british isles and, therefore, deserve protection.

A big moving dune - nay the "biggest in the british isles" - and it "deserves protection"?

Sh!t I've got my priorities wrong all these years. I never realized how important a moving dune was

Do you also "save the jaguars"? If so I'd like you to set a 4.2 litre one aside for me

gaelgowfer wrote:Well ya know what they say Maverick ... " a fool and his money are easily parted".

Incidentally, you're missing the point. The dunes are supposed to move - not be stabilised. It does not matter a whit that I or anyone else knew these dunes were supposed to be left to roam back and forth. They represent the biggest moving dunes in the british isles and, therefore, deserve protection. Sadly, Aberdeenshire Council decided to prostitute itself on the Trump altar in the mistaken belief that it would benefit the local economy when in fact the only economy it will benefit is Trump Inc.

There is also the matter of Trump's attempt to bully homeowners into selling their homes. Although he has gone on record as stating he will not apply for compulsory purchase orders, I'm certainly not taking that as a given. He is a nasty uncompromising individual but ... leave it to a "sassenach" to know better ... eh?

I'm not missing the point Gael I never mentioned the Dunes because it simply has not effect on what I think of the course, as for beeing a fool i'm far from that despite what you may think If I like the look of the course and feel it worth parting my money I will

Davie wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:They represent the biggest moving dunes in the british isles and, therefore, deserve protection.

A big moving dune - nay the "biggest in the british isles" - and it "deserves protection"?

Maybe I'm missing something, this makes perfect sense to me.

So now simply being "the largest" is qualification enough for something to be protected?
Shane Lowry's gut will be delighted to hear it.

NedB-H wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:Not quite Ned. The Menie dunes are supposed to be on the move which (apparently) makes them quite a rare phenomena. Trump is so ignorant he thought he was doing us all a favour by stabilising part of them but what he has done in effect is to stop part of a section in its tracks by planting marram grass in order to facilitate the creation of fairways and greens.

Cheers Gael.

I was assuming they were planting on dunes further inland than the main marram areas. The other possibility is that they're having to plant because they're building it on the foredunes where even the marram hasn't managed to colonise yet. Which is even more daft, because that's where the regeneration and growth of the dune system takes place... if they'd waited a couple of years it would've been marram anyway, but this way they risk wrecking the cycle of dune growth and ruining the whole system.

Not sure about the extent of Menie being unusual for "moving", or for anything else... I know a decent bit about dune systems generally, but I'm certainly no expert on local varieties or unusual sites! If there is something particularly special about Menie it just makes it even more damaging, whether it's Trump or anyone else. No doubt it'll be a spectacular course when all's done, but spectacular non-golfing coastline is sometimes better.

Thanks for your insight Ned. I don't understand the mechanics of how marram grass colonises naturally but suffice to say the local experts seem to think that stabilisation is not a good thing for a moving dune!

Even ... IF ... Trump - or rather Hawtree (without interference) created "the greatest golf course in the world", Scotland does not need anymore golf courses. We are quite simply awash with them.

Maverick ... thusfar, we have seen only what Trump wants us to see unless of course you know better?

Gael, I think you might be missing the point. Yes, we have many golf courses, but he's not just creating another golf course, (and I'm not saying that in a Trumps building a fantastic course kind of way) rather that it's an attempt to build a course to fit in with a new or very select niche of which only a few courses fit in with (e.g. Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart etc).
I don't see anything wrong with that. I actually think that Aberdeenshire could well do with a new course of this kind as although it has quality courses in the shape of Royal Aberdeen, Murcar and Cruden Bay it is somewhat remote for many to bother making the journey so this may help make it a more viable destination to rival Fife, the Lothian coast and the Troon/Turnberry/Gailes courses.

Gael, you seem to have a tinfoil hat on tonight, as if you think Trump is hoodwinking the publicin the grandeose conspiracy theory, and he's not going to build a golf course, but instead a Wig based Fairground or an Apprentice Themepark. Suppose you think the moonlandings didn't happen either?

No s-r, I'm not missing the point but you most certainly are. No golf course is worth the misery of putting homeowners under the threat of compulsory purchase orders.

So now it's gone from protecting the dune system to a few homeowners?
I'm sure they were handsomely recompensed for their land.
I don't see it as being an issue if as suspected it will bring considerable benefit to the Aberdeenshire economy.

s-r, no point in discussing this further as it's quite evident you know very little about this subject either that or you're indulging yourself in yet another wind up.

No Gael, I see it from another point of view, that's all.

The Aberdeen economy is doing very well without Mr Trump.

Maram grass grows by means of rizomes like couch grass/strawberry plants.
If the moving doons move and leave the roots exposed they will naturally die.
IE the grass needs the grass to continue to grow.
It can be transplanted quite easily as can clearly be seen in one of the photos.

Dispite what some experts on hear claim, it does not cut to fairway/semi rough.

PS.
Marram grass is very prickly on your legs.

Doon, The economy of Aberdeen is doing very well if you work in Oil and Gas, there is no harm in diversifying and making an economy stronger still.

What is difficult to ascertain from the photographs is scale and perspective. Yes, it looks like a tight course, but why would anyone build an unplayable course? If he's hoping for it to be considered one of the worlds best I'm sure there are provisions for semi rough to be introduced.
In any event there are many courses, The Jubilee, a case in point where many sections (i.e Left and Right of 8, left of 14 and right of 15,16 where such grasses are immediately parallel with the current fairway with no semi to speak of.

It certainly appears that the critics will look for anything to denegrate the project yet none of them have ever been on site to see what it actually looks like or get a sense of scale, and are simply viewing things from a keyboard activist point of view.

Down with capitalism

PPS
I don't think their will be a long queue of folk wishing to caddy.

Why not? Caddy's make £40 a round plus 90% of the time a minimum of £20 gratuity for a single round at Kingsbarns and TOC, with many getting in two or three rounds a day on a summers day that could be 180 a day. I should think there will be plenty willing to do it at Trumps course and no shortage of well heeled golfers willing to pay them for it.

They will be lucky to get the minimum wage with 8 hour rounds.

A couple of days ago I watched a caddy at Turnberry carefully give a 'well heeled golfer' the line on a tricky 4 foot putt. Well heeled golfer hits it straight through the borrow and 10 foot past the cup. The caddy looked up at me and gave me a very sad smile.

SR Three rounds a day at St Andrews, are we talking about the putting green?

super_realist wrote:Why not? Caddy's make £40 a round plus 90% of the time a minimum of £20 gratuity for a single round at Kingsbarns and TOC, with many getting in two or three rounds a day on a summers day that could be 180 a day. I should think there will be plenty willing to do it at Trumps course and no shortage of well heeled golfers willing to pay them for it.

Is trump looking for caddies, i'm game at 180quid a day for a summer job

Doon, even on a busy summer day I've never taken longer than 4.5 hours to play TOC, and thsts largely due to idiot walkers getting in the way and ridiculous photo opportunities. can't see why trump would take any longer to play. if you hit it in the long grass than look for 30 seconds and move on.

SR that is nearly 15 hours a day if the changeover break is within 30 mins. 7am to 10pm.
I actually did caddy three rounds in a day as a 11/12 year old. That was in the days of 3 hour rounds.
Really tough golf courses have been tried before, most have to adapt to commercial reality.
[Says he who once managed a Fred Hawtree par 73 municipal course and changed it into a very successful 27 holes!!]

Doon, plenty of people do it. Make hay while the sun shines, also who says its going to be really difficult? Courses are seldom as difficult as people claim them to be. Doenst look too much difficult about the trump course as far as I can see, probably the most difficult thing would be getting past the professional protesters at the front gate.

Or
Getting past the snooty Professional in the Pro's shop!

It does look pretty spectacular and I hope they get it right.
They seem to have made a good job of Castle Stewart so plenty of class courses in that region now.

Inverness is a very long drive away from the trump course, and why would you think the pro would be snooty? Barrel scraping stuff. Why not just wait and see how it turns out instead of wearing a tin foil hat?

Long drive on that road but not too far as the crow flies.

Pros....past experience at wannabee comercial courses.

As I said..........I hope they get it right!!

True, but crows don't play golf.
I've seen just as many snooty pros at all types of course arriving ranges.

Doon the Water wrote:The Aberdeen economy is doing very well without Mr Trump.

Maram grass grows by means of rizomes like couch grass/strawberry plants.
If the moving doons move and leave the roots exposed they will naturally die.
IE the grass needs the grass to continue to grow.
It can be transplanted quite easily as can clearly be seen in one of the photos.

Dispite what some experts on hear claim, it does not cut to fairway/semi rough.

Doon, as I understand it, re-planting marram grass on this scale will be an ongoing process for the foreseeable future. Indeed my club tried planting it around one our bunkers but it died. For a plant that appears to be quite robust, it is surprisingly tender out of its natural ecological environment.

Wonder how the Trump 'gated' mentality will deal with this ...

Scottish Access Outdoor Code

Responsible behaviour by the public

Golf courses: You can only exercise access rights to cross over a golf course and in doing so,
you must keep off golf greens at all times and not interfere with any golf games or
damage the playing surface. Golf courses are intensively used and managed,
and there can be hazards such as where golfers are playing “blind” shots. In
exercising access rights:

allow players to play their shot before crossing a fairway;

be still when close to a player about to play;

follow paths where they exist; and

keep your dog on a short lead.
To avoid damaging the playing surface, cyclists and horse riders need to keep
to paths at all times and not go on to any other part of a golf course.
When fertilisers or pesticides have been used, the duration of any hazard
depends on the material used but should not normally extend more than a few
days. Golf course managers can ask you to avoid using particular routes at
these times. Following such advice can greatly help to minimise risks to safety.


Responsible behaviour by land managers

Wherever possible, provide paths around or across the
course and/or advise people on the safest ways through
the course. This will help to minimise safety risks.
In winter, many people enjoy activities like sledging and
cross-country skiing on golf courses. This can be
important to local communities. These activities rarely
cause any problems if done responsibly – by keeping
off greens, tees and bunkers – and when there is
sufficient snow cover. Golf course managers are
encouraged to accept such access when it is carried out
responsibly

Of course marram planted around the bunker in established soil wouldn't work. The soil would be far too rich. Do you really think a course designer on this scale is going to make such a mistake?

Naturally I meant transplanted to a suitable sand base.
Gullane Dunes is an example of large scale transplanting [in the 1950/60s.]
In the 1950's the area from Gullane beach to the 2nd tee at Muirfied was totally flat. there are 40 foot dunes there now.

"The Aberdeen economy is doing very well without Mr.Trump."

Well, of course! He certainly wouldn't be interested in some sort of altruistic endeavour in areas of high unemployment, poor infrastructure, no cachet, little chance of reflected glory.

I don't know enough about this development to be pro or con, but anyone who thinks Trump embarks on any enterprise except to massage his own ego, cost be damned, think again. Would suggest his ego is a more powerful motivator for him than any profit concern, and that is what makes Trump so dangerous.
"Do no harm" is the best that anyone can hope that he'll do, and I wouldn't be optimistic he'll succeed in that.

Gael, being pig ignorant of the Scottish Access Code, what does that actually mean for the golf course? Does the code grant access regardless of the landowner's wishes or can they adopt the ger orf my laand principle?

Grumpy
Remember Michael Flannagan, he found a door open at Buck House, wandered in and found himself in the Queens bedroom.
The police at that time could not charge him with any criminal act as he had not performed a crime.

Trespass/access laws are a nightmare.
The Scots have a 'right to roam'. Basic rule of thumb is that you can't cause disturbance, damage or interfere with the normal activity of that land.

So you can't wander across Parkhead when Celtic are playing Rangers, can't wander across a moor if deer stalking is taking place, or walk across a cultivated field.

In reality it works very well as landowners accept that the public are generally very considerate. The tourists who leave gates open when they were closed, cause a days stalking to be abandoned and allow their dogs to chase sheep are not so well looked upon.

The ones who walk around TOC oblivious to the fact that golf is going on really get my goat. They just wander aimlessly and without observation around with the right to roam like a gun on their hip. I'd have no remorse should my ball strike one.

Leaving the rights and wrongs aside for a moment, the pictures on the website show a great course. To my eye much closer to Cruden Bay and parts on Peterhead then Royal Aberdeen and Murcur.

Is it just me or does anyone else suspect a bit of 'photoshots' about photo no1

Trump's an enigma to me ...

He has declared bankruptcy numerous times, and his "it's only bizness" call rings a bit hollow to me, since many an investor and small businessman were left holding the bag. Worse, he does this and continues to live his gold-leafed lifestyle. I'll give him this much - he's figured out how to work the system, that's for sure.

While so much "smart money" stays as far away from golf course development as possible, he continues to shore up his properties stateside and abroad. His Philadelphia experiment is proving good. http://www.myphillygolf.com/blogs.asp?menuid=10240&blogid=1 I do admire someone who puts his money where his mouth is.

What of the Scottish experiment? As I've said before I'm sure there will be loads of American golfers who make the journey to try the course out. I imagine it will cater to those types (American or otherwise) - with lots of cash and looking for a good time. First time visitation won't be a problem. It will be if they get the repeat business, which will be led by word of mouth as much as anything else in golfing circles. If it gets even half the "buzz" Bandon gets I like his chances.

I've spoken to a few guys to have been lucky enough to visit the site already, and all of them have been blown away ... by what they've seen, rather than the weather! Time will tell how it pans out, but the praise I've heard so far is very encouraging.

One thing they have done is to create exactly the same surface on the tees as the greens, so you can practise putting on them while waiting to tee-off!

Course opens next July, I believe. Know a couple of guys who have already booked tee times for July and August. Can't wait to give it a go, although it does look like a "challenge".