Wlad vs Haye: Who Wins and Why?

OK so Hayes may 21st date on sky has now been taken up by warren, wlad has pulled out of the chisora fight and everyone seems to expect a bout between haye & wlad to be announced next week, in July, in Germany. Obviously it could fall through (again) but on the assumption it doesn't, let's indulge ourselves and discuss who's gonna win and why.  

First we have wlad, unbeaten in nearly 7 years. He's taller, physically stronger, athletic for his size with impressive stamina and has a bigger reach. He has an excellent jab, throws effective combinations, adopts a high guard with a stand off, cautious style, and ties opponents up coming in, using his physical strength to lean on them and sap their energy. But he has shown himself to be vulnerable to power and he's not the quickest. 

To beat haye he will need to keep the range early on with his jab, cover up as haye comes in and tie haye up, take Hayes strength away in the clinches and wear him down with the jab and pot shots. If he can get past 8 rounds doing this he should have the edge in the final third of the fight where he can be braver with his hands and let the punches fly on a weary haye. Haye trains for speed and explosiveness, not endurance, and wlad needs to use that against him. Wlad will know haye will be at his most dangerous early on, and I'm certain he'll look to fight cautious, take his strength then try to take him out late on, such is the animosity he'll want the KO. Can he do this?

And haye? Well as mentioned he trains for pure speed and explosiveness. He doesn't work a jab, instead circling his opponents and looking for openings to dart in and unleash fast, powerful combinations. He has a clear edge in speed, the power to hurt wlad, is deceptively awkward to hit, is a great finisher when his man is hurt and is naturally very strong and athletic. He is also 6 years younger and hungry. But he's also smaller, has had stamina issues in the past and whilst I wouldn't say he was chinny, he has been decked by lesser men than wlad. 

Hayes gameplan will be simple: knock wlad out. He'll look to stay out of wlads jabbing range so not to eat too much punishment, look for the gaps in wlads high guard or when he throws potshots and burst forward with his fast, heavy hands to land the kind of punches that have done for wlad in the past. Haye must be cautious not get get tagged heavy on his way in, and not to waste too much energy looking for the one big punch. He must be prepared for 12 rounds, because that's where wlad wants to take him. 

So who wins? Well I can see why, with his size, heavyweight experience and fundamental ability wlad will be the bookies favourite, but I'm gonna predict a haye win for the following reason: he has BOTH of the key attributes required to beat the current version of wlad - greasy fast hw speed, and genuine one punch knock out power. With wlads more cautious style having one of these without the other isn't enough, which is why all his recent opponents have fallen short. Its no good having big power if you cant get in range and past the high guard. Conversely its no good being super quick enough to get to him if you dont bang hard enough to make it count. But haye has both and that's the key, the real key in this fight. I can see him staying out of range, playing it very careful and waiting for very clear opportunities - but when they come he'll be clever enough, quick enough and powerful enough to make it count. Wlad will be shocked by how quick haye actually moves when face to face with him, and shocked by how hard he punches too. If haye is disciplined and takes his chances wisely, he can do it. Wlad is not invulnerable and Haye possesses the two attributes that will be wlads kryptonite. 

I predict haye will knock wlad out inside 8 rounds. 

Its a tough call. My heart says Haye, but the head is calling for Wlad. Simple because they are both chinny, but Wlad is the type of fighter who is a nightmare for Haye. Both counter punchers (Wlad an extremely safety first approach) with Haye having to go looking for Wlad. Yes he has the speed, but Wlad is no slouch with his hand speed. All it will take is one punch. Haye has to connect properly, whereas Wlad I reckon can seriously hurt Haye with his piston jab.

I hope I'm wrong but I see a 3 round KO for Wlad.

To be honest, we've never seen Haye in with anything like Wlad, and we've never seen Wlad in with anything like Haye and styles make fights. So there's no way to know.

Haye has fought skilled cruisers and big heavies, Wlad's fought out of shape heavies for years. Both haven't had a strong challenge in some time and Haye's inactivity should work against him.

I want Haye to win but there's no way to know who will.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:To be honest, we've never seen Haye in with anything like Wlad, and we've never seen Wlad in with anything like Haye and styles make fights. So there's no way to know.

Haye has fought skilled cruisers and big heavies, Wlad's fought out of shape heavies for years. Both haven't had a strong challenge in some time and Haye's inactivity should work against him.

I want Haye to win but there's no way to know who will.

Haye has never been the most active fighters anyway. I remember him being floored by a not too hard punch thrown by MOrmeck. Floored by Barret and hurt by Ruiz. I dont think he can take much of a punch to be honest

He's always got back up though and I don't really remember him being in serious trouble against Ruiz and he did the job eventually. Mormeck was the top cruiser at the time, and look what happened to him and against Barret he was just off balance when Barret hit him while he was down. Then look what happened.

Neither of these guys are rugged brawlers, either can take the other out but Wlad is less likely to take an opponent out early and he's been KO'd thrice himself. I don't thin either man has great stamina but Haye's style uses more energy.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:He's always got back up though and I don't really remember him being in serious trouble against Ruiz and he did the job eventually. Mormeck was the top cruiser at the time, and look what happened to him and against Barret he was just off balance when Barret hit him while he was down. Then look what happened.

Neither of these guys are rugged brawlers, either can take the other out but Wlad is less likely to take an opponent out early and he's been KO'd thrice himself. I don't thin either man has great stamina but Haye's style uses more energy.

I removed your duplicate post. Hope you dont mind. But if you did it on purpose...too bad

Anyway, I agree with what you say. But I reckon Haye is the more vulnerable of the two and Wlad has the better style to give Haye more problems than vice versa. Wlad has an awesome jab and Haye hasn't got the tightest defence. Haye is the better offensive fighter when he lets his hands go, but for me the jab wins the day. I can see Haye being staggered by Wlad's jab and then an overhand right to take him out.

Haye would have a better chance against the slower and plodding Vit imo.

azania wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:He's always got back up though and I don't really remember him being in serious trouble against Ruiz and he did the job eventually. Mormeck was the top cruiser at the time, and look what happened to him and against Barret he was just off balance when Barret hit him while he was down. Then look what happened.

Neither of these guys are rugged brawlers, either can take the other out but Wlad is less likely to take an opponent out early and he's been KO'd thrice himself. I don't thin either man has great stamina but Haye's style uses more energy.

I removed your duplicate post. Hope you dont mind. But if you did it on purpose...too bad

Anyway, I agree with what you say. But I reckon Haye is the more vulnerable of the two and Wlad has the better style to give Haye more problems than vice versa. Wlad has an awesome jab and Haye hasn't got the tightest defence. Haye is the better offensive fighter when he lets his hands go, but for me the jab wins the day. I can see Haye being staggered by Wlad's jab and then an overhand right to take him out.

Haye would have a better chance against the slower and plodding Vit imo.

Disagree. I think hayes style will cause wlad more problems than vice versa. Wlads jab is good against plodding out of shape guys that limber towards him, haye will stay out of range and come forward in fast bursts rather than a continuous plod. Wlad will find it hard to time haye with his jab, and if haye can be quick enough to get inside the jab then his power can put wlad in all sorts of trouble. Not saying it's an easy thing for haye to do, but it's far easier for wlad to time slow, predictable opponents who stay in range with his jab and right hand than it will be to do it against haye. Haye is a vastly different animal to any opponent wlad has faced in the last six years in terms of his style, speed, power and athleticism. I think haye is more likely to land the big shots early in the fight and I don't think wlad can withstand Hayes power if haye gets him on trouble.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:

azania wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:He's always got back up though and I don't really remember him being in serious trouble against Ruiz and he did the job eventually. Mormeck was the top cruiser at the time, and look what happened to him and against Barret he was just off balance when Barret hit him while he was down. Then look what happened.

Neither of these guys are rugged brawlers, either can take the other out but Wlad is less likely to take an opponent out early and he's been KO'd thrice himself. I don't thin either man has great stamina but Haye's style uses more energy.

I removed your duplicate post. Hope you dont mind. But if you did it on purpose...too bad

Anyway, I agree with what you say. But I reckon Haye is the more vulnerable of the two and Wlad has the better style to give Haye more problems than vice versa. Wlad has an awesome jab and Haye hasn't got the tightest defence. Haye is the better offensive fighter when he lets his hands go, but for me the jab wins the day. I can see Haye being staggered by Wlad's jab and then an overhand right to take him out.

Haye would have a better chance against the slower and plodding Vit imo.

Disagree. I think hayes style will cause wlad more problems than vice versa. Wlads jab is good against plodding out of shape guys that limber towards him, haye will stay out of range and come forward in fast bursts rather than a continuous plod. Wlad will find it hard to time haye with his jab, and if haye can be quick enough to get inside the jab then his power can put wlad in all sorts of trouble. Not saying it's an easy thing for haye to do, but it's far easier for wlad to time slow, predictable opponents who stay in range with his jab and right hand than it will be to do it against haye. Haye is a vastly different animal to any opponent wlad has faced in the last six years in terms of his style, speed, power and athleticism. I think haye is more likely to land the big shots early in the fight and I don't think wlad can withstand Hayes power if haye gets him on trouble.

Oh boy. I feel another long thread with people basing their judgements on this fight on their hearts rather than their eyes

What you say is correct - in theory, but perhaps Wlad has made the best heavies out there appear plodders. Wlad has adapted his style to be an ultra safety first fighter. Given the problems Haye had with Valuev (who I thought won that fight), I believe he would have more problems with a harder hitting, faster and all round more skilled fighter in Wlad.

Wlad would keep him at the end of the left jab with his right cocked and a punch to the top of the head will disorientate Haye making his wary of his darting moves. If he had a better chin, then I would favour Haye. He hasn't so I dont. Hope I'm wrong thoughj. I for one will be buying the PPV. If it goes the distance, Haye would have to knock him out to get a draw.

Azania: Oh boy. I feel another long thread with people basing their judgements on this fight on their hearts rather than their eyes
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That's not the case. Whilst I'd want haye to win I'm not some big haye fan who can't see past his weaknesses, nor do I allow personal favouritism to cloud my judgement of any fight. I just happen to think haye has the attributes that will cause wlad serious problems. Wlad will have to execute a longer game to win his way, whereas haye could win in a matter of moments if his gameplan is effective. Surely if it was so one-sided and a foregone conclusion for wlad we wouldn't all be clamouring for it in the first place. Haye wins IMO, and if I'm proved wrong then so be it.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:Azania: Oh boy. I feel another long thread with people basing their judgements on this fight on their hearts rather than their eyes
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That's not the case. Whilst I'd want haye to win I'm not some big haye fan who can't see past his weaknesses, nor do I allow personal favouritism to cloud my judgement of any fight. I just happen to think haye has the attributes that will cause wlad serious problems. Wlad will have to execute a longer game to win his way, whereas haye could win in a matter of moments if his gameplan is effective. Surely if it was so one-sided and a foregone conclusion for wlad we wouldn't all be clamouring for it in the first place. Haye wins IMO, and if I'm proved wrong then so be it.

He does have the attributes to beat Wlad. But Wlad has more to his game to KO Haye. I like Haye. I want him to win. He has charisma and a certain Xfactor as opposed to those boring brothers. But Wlad's jab is the difference maker for me. Haye is too busy feinting whick knackers him. When he slows, he loses this fight. That is of course the big one doesn't explode on Wlad.

I simply believe that Haye is the more vulnerable of the two and it wont be a difficult night for Wlad. This will also be Haye's last fight imo. Unless he loses a close decision and blames the judges.

The double pst was an accident, but I do agree about Vitali being easier for Haye. He's too easy to find and a tough chin can only last for a certain amount of time against an explosive puncher like Haye

John Bloody Wayne wrote:The double pst was an accident, but I do agree about Vitali being easier for Haye. He's too easy to find and a tough chin can only last for a certain amount of time against an explosive puncher like Haye

Is Haye such an explosive puncher at heavy? He actually hasn't sparked out any heavies has he. All have been ref stoppages.

Well they can't standup either usually, and Wlad could be the weakest jawed he's faced.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Well they can't standup either usually, and Wlad could be the weakest jawed he's faced.

All heavies he has fought were stopped on their feet. Wlad is more chinny than Audley?

Mhmm, Audley was only sparked once and that kind of punch would flatten anyone.

I mean with Haye that they're not stopped without usually having been knocked down repeatedly. It's not like a Klitchko-esque grinding down.

azania wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:The double pst was an accident, but I do agree about Vitali being easier for Haye. He's too easy to find and a tough chin can only last for a certain amount of time against an explosive puncher like Haye

Is Haye such an explosive puncher at heavy? He actually hasn't sparked out any heavies has he. All have been ref stoppages.

A ref stoppage is good enough. Haye is an explosive puncher at heavy, but not as concussive as he was at cruiser - which is to be expected. With him he's not likely to wipe an opponent out with one punch, but he does hit hard and he's quick and mobile enough to get himself into positions where he can stagger the opponent with a big shot, and he's an aggressive enough finisher to take the opponent with a out by TKO when they're reeling. Audley is about wlads size, ok he's a joke but I wouldnt say he's chinny - certainly no more or less than wlad - but he was visibly hurt by hayes punches at heavyweight and said afterwards he didnt expect him to hit so hard. Ruiz is highly durable but still found himself on the deck and haye also had valuev doing a silly chicken dance which is no mean feat. With all that in mind I'd say there's no question he has the power to take wlad out. Not KO him with one shot - but he doesn't have to. If he can get inside quick enough to land a bomb flush on wlad and stagger him he'd waste no time in jumping on wlad with more big shots. Wlad has been taken out three times before by big punches, there's no reason why a guy with hayes quick mobility and power cant do it again.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Mhmm, Audley was only sparked once and that kind of punch would flatten anyone.

I mean with Haye that they're not stopped without usually having been knocked down repeatedly. It's not like a Klitchko-esque grinding down.

Haye's tko of Audley didn't seem to be from a power punch. An explosive wouldn't need to be putting them down repeatedly I would have thought. He's a hurtful puncher at heavy by all means. I doubt if his punches have carried up to heavy as it was at cruiser.

It could be though that he doesn't commit as much because of the Thompson fight and maybe because he knows he's chinny and he could get caught.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:

azania wrote:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:The double pst was an accident, but I do agree about Vitali being easier for Haye. He's too easy to find and a tough chin can only last for a certain amount of time against an explosive puncher like Haye

Is Haye such an explosive puncher at heavy? He actually hasn't sparked out any heavies has he. All have been ref stoppages.

A ref stoppage is good enough. Haye is an explosive puncher at heavy, but not as concussive as he was at cruiser - which is to be expected. With him he's not likely to wipe an opponent out with one punch, but he does hit hard and he's quick and mobile enough to get himself into positions where he can stagger the opponent with a big shot, and he's an aggressive enough finisher to take the opponent with a out by TKO when they're reeling. Audley is about wlads size, ok he's a joke but I wouldnt say he's chinny - certainly no more or less than wlad - but he was visibly hurt by hayes punches at heavyweight and said afterwards he didnt expect him to hit so hard. Ruiz is highly durable but still found himself on the deck and haye also had valuev doing a silly chicken dance which is no mean feat. With all that in mind I'd say there's no question he has the power to take wlad out. Not KO him with one shot - but he doesn't have to. If he can get inside quick enough to land a bomb flush on wlad and stagger him he'd waste no time in jumping on wlad with more big shots. Wlad has been taken out three times before by big punches, there's no reason why a guy with hayes quick mobility and power cant do it again.

Absolutely no reason why Haye cant do as you say. But lets not forget that Haye has been decked by a super mid, a couple of cruisers and hurt by every live heavy he has faced. By his own acknowledgement, he is vulnerable.

azania:Absolutely no reason why Haye cant do as you say. But lets not forget that Haye has been decked by a super mid, a couple of cruisers and hurt by every live heavy he has faced. By his own acknowledgement, he is vulnerable
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Absolutely he's vulnerable, thats what makes it such an interesting fight. Wlad is just as vulnerable, and I happen to think hayes style and gameplan will be more effective against a vulnerable opponent than wlads. Could literally be a case of who lands a huge shot first, and on balanace I'd predict that to be haye - and he wont let wlad off the hook. Of course I could be proven totally wrong, but where's the point in sitting on the fence?

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:azania:Absolutely no reason why Haye cant do as you say. But lets not forget that Haye has been decked by a super mid, a couple of cruisers and hurt by every live heavy he has faced. By his own acknowledgement, he is vulnerable
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Absolutely he's vulnerable, thats what makes it such an interesting fight. Wlad is just as vulnerable, and I happen to think hayes style and gameplan will be more effective against a vulnerable opponent than wlads. Could literally be a case of who lands a huge shot first, and on balanace I'd predict that to be haye - and he wont let wlad off the hook. Of course I could be proven totally wrong, but where's the point in sitting on the fence?

Agreed. Thats why it will probably be a very boring fight full of posturing as they both recognise their vulnerabilities The first one to commit loses.

azania:Agreed. Thats why it will probably be a very boring fight full of posturing as they both recognise their vulnerabilities The first one to commit loses
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Yeah. after all the hype it will be 12 rounds exactly like the first 2 of haye v audley and the fight will be called a draw with neither man having thrown a punch.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:azania:Agreed. Thats why it will probably be a very boring fight full of posturing as they both recognise their vulnerabilities The first one to commit loses
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Yeah. after all the hype it will be 12 rounds exactly like the first 2 of haye v audley and the fight will be called a draw with neither man having thrown a punch.

If the fight is in Germany Haye would have to ko Wlad to get a split decision win. God I hope its not a full 12 round of the exactly the first 2 rounds of the Audley "fight".

Out of interest Azania, how did you have Valuev beating Haye?

Landed far less yet threw more and was in serious trouble in round 12 whereas Haye dictated the pace of the fight and although was very safety first commanded the ring very well. That's all four areas of scoring won by Haye

I genuinely think Haye will take Wlad out and i'll admit i'm leading with my heart on this one

imperialghosty wrote:Out of interest Azania, how did you have Valuev beating Haye?

Landed far less yet threw more and was in serious trouble in round 12 whereas Haye dictated the pace of the fight and although was very safety first commanded the ring very well. That's all four areas of scoring won by Haye

I genuinely think Haye will take Wlad out and i'll admit i'm leading with my heart on this one

There were some rounds where hardly anything was done and very hard to score. Those rounds I gave to Valuev as he is the champ and being old school I believe that the challenger should beat the champ and not 'steal' rounds.

You don't score rounds on who the champion is, it purely comes down to who the better man is not who the defending champion is. So in short your doing your usual and saying something simply to deride someone you don't like

imperialghosty wrote:You don't score rounds on who the champion is, it purely comes down to who the better man is not who the defending champion is. So in short your doing your usual and saying something simply to deride someone you don't like

I know and agree. As I said, I'm old school. But close rounds can go either way and due to my bias, I always score them for the champ.

Who is it that I dont like? I said my heart says Haye would win indicating I want Haye to win. Read the thread again. Actually its the first line of my first response on this thread. Its not very long thread and will acknowledge your error.

Cheers

About time. Hope Klits injury heals in time.

davejay wrote:About time. Hope Klits injury heals in time.

What injury

im going to go with Wlad, i think haye will be punished for his glaring flaws, hayes quick but he hasnt fought anyone with speed like wlads at heavy, sounds silly i know because Wlad is exactly quick but hes so much quicker than valuev and ruiz and harrison. haye is used to fighting with his hands down and relying on reflexs to dodge shots, wlad will love this and make him eat leather all night. wlad will keep him at bay with that powerful jab of his.

Wlad is a fighter with a high workrate too so its not like haye can employ the same hit and run tatics he did against valuev.

haye does have power though and if he can find away uder wlads jab id expect him to be able to damage him, the thing is hayes power shots or his famous haye maker can be avoided he tends to loop them outwards a bit and i think the fact that haye opens up more than wlad to throw punches plus haye boasting no defence makes me think wlad has got this one, i can only see haye winning if wlad drops his guard and haye cracks him with a straight KO shot and hes out cold. it could happen as wlads chin had be criticised but wald will know what to expect from haye and wont be stupid enough to do that.

My inclination is that Wlad will win and the fight will be quite cagey.

The only fighter you could say that has close to the style and dimensions of Wlad that Haye has faced is Valuev and on the bsis of that performance I cant see him winning. I would expect Haye to fight in a similar way on the outside looking for opportunities. I wasnt overly impressed on how Haye did in the fight and considering Wlad has superior ring control, better athleticism and a better jab then I think its hard to imagine Haye winning many rounds.

Id find it hard to see Haye winning on points anyway so I think he will need a KO. Its possible alright but I think Haye will need to take risks and show more agression than i the Valuev fight.

Some pundits think Haye has no chance at all; but I'm not having that at all. He is a better fighter than anyone the Klitschkos have fought in the last 5 years.

Conversely, they are both leagues above anyone he has faced at heavyweight so far.

To beat Wladimir, Haye would have to unsettle the bigger man. He would need to use his superior movement and speed to fight in controlled, aggressive bursts. If Haye could fight at a pace that unsettles Wladimir's rhythm, he would stand a good chance. He would have to force Wladimir to fight at a speed he is unaccustomed too and make him go backwards; which is something he is not particularly adept at.

However, Wladimir has a superb jab, is always in excellent condition and controls distance very well. If David Haye allows him to establish a rhythm and fails to force the pace of the fight, it could e very painful for him.

With Vitali, he is tougher and likes a scrap more than his brother; but he is slower and to me, is not as good as his younger brother at this stage of his career.

Vitali, like his brother, controls distance well and fights tall. But he has not encountered a fighter of Haye's speed in several years; maybe never looking at his opposition.

Haye would need to use lateral movement and come at Vitali from unorthodox angles; using his speed to get in and out. A well concentrated body attack would be important to sap the older man's stamina in this fight. Making Vitali chase him and countering from angles before moving out of range might be Haye's best strategy; throwing two or three punch combinations before getting out of range. The longer it takes to make this fight; the better Haye's chances are in my opinion. Haye is 30, in his absolute prime and getting used to heavyweight. Vitali is a formidable opponent, but he is pushing 40. Every fighter will inevitably become old and decline at some point. At this age this could happen over night and this is what David Haye has to hope for.

Whichever of the two David Haye fights, speed, movement and discipline are key. He is quicker and more agile than both; but they are both bigger and stronger than him; with better jabs. He cannot allow them to establish a rhythm or lean on him to sap his energy; if he allows this to happen both are capable of taking him out.

I believe Haye has two issues which could affect him in this fight: (1) his punch resistance, and (2) his stamina.

I'm not convinced by Haye's ability to take a shot. He was knocked out by Thompson, he was down against Mormeck and Monte B had him down. I didn't watch the Ruiz ''fight'' but was he hurt in that fight?

I also believe he has stamina issues. Against either Klit, he will have to bring great lateral movement to the fight. Simply put, he'll have to use a lot of energy - energy I don't think he has enough of. He got away with it against a big, slow Valuev but this is a different proposition.

My predictions? If this fight goes the distance, Wlad will win. But Haye has a great shot to KO Wlad.

hitmansam: I'm not convinced by Haye's ability to take a shot. He was knocked out by Thompson, he was down against Mormeck and Monte B had him down. I didn't watch the Ruiz ''fight'' but was he hurt in that fight?
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I don't recall him being in any trouble against Ruiz, that fight never looked in doubt. His only problem was that he looked a bit gassed briefly after round 3, but he soon got a second wind and finished the job.

Haye had no problems with Ruiz other than as SBS just pointed out; that he gassed a little after trying to get Ruiz out of there early. If I'm not mistaken Haye had been unable to properly spar for the fight after receiving a cut above his right eye during training/sparring.

He wasn't knocked out by Thompson either-he was stopped on his feet. Still stopped but not so much an indication of his chin as of his stamina.

Again Barrett Haye was ruled to have slipped, and was then clocked by Barrett while on the canvas. He then promptly got back up and stopped Monte shortly after.

Haye DID look shaky after being put down by Mormeck, but showed his ring smarts in avoiding further punishment, riding out the storm and stopping Mormeck I believe a couple of rounds later.

Hitmansam-do you simply dislike Haye?

BALTIMORA, I'm a fan of Haye. What's to dislike about him? He has an exciting style and is willing to fight anyone and everyone - anywhere!

Having said that, he definitely has issues with his chin and stamina. I hope he blasts the Ks outta there!

hitmansam, I was just wondering because it seemed you were being a tad unfairly scathing. I think the thing with Haye is he's aware of his own weaknesses, and certainly aware of what opinions other people have of him.

I think you're right when you say about him fighting anyone anywhere-too much is made of his poorly selected recent opponents, and not enough of the fact that while Haye shows no interest in fighting a slew of the contenders, he DOES seem genuinely intent on taking on either Klitbot.

I rate Haye. He has enough power to KO either Klit - mark my words. The K-brothers are (1) boring, and (2) overrated. IF Haye fights the right fight, he'll beat either Klit.

IF, however, he let's Klit fight their fight, it's over ... jab, jab, jab = UD or mid to late TKO / KO.

Yeah, I'm hoping he IS that bit smarter than those previous Klit victims who also promised so much, but were all unable to negate the effective yet dull jab-jab-jab. As much as there's plenty to dislike about Haye for all his self-promoting mouthing-off, I truly believe he's all too aware of how significant this fight is, both for him and for the sport in general, and as such I've fingers crossed he fights smart.

What is fighting smart for Haye?

I see him adopting the same approach as with Valuev and by extension losing rounds as Wlad controls the fight.

Valuev was slow with a weakish pawing jab. He wasnt athletic enough to close off the ring. All this promise of Hayes blistering speed wasnt really evident. He seldom got inside Valuevs jab and only landed a handful of meaningful shots. Against Wlad he will find it even tougher to find range. If Wlad fights ultra cautious I can see Haye struggling big time. The only advantage he has over the Valuev fight is that Wlad hasnt got the same quality chin so Haye may only need a couple of opportunities.

I find it hard to see Haye winning on points though as if it goes to the cards it would suggest to me that Wlad has largely controlled the fight as usual and takes a UD. Haye needs to be more aggressive than he was against Valuev.

Im hoping for a fight similar to Peter v Wlad and Haye adopts a more risky approach designed on getting to Wlad rather than tying to outbox him from distance. I think he felt he could not KO Valuev so he was resigned to trying to nick a points win. He may feel that Wlad is more vunerable and go for him a bit more. I would expect a cagey start and Wlad to be a few rounds up before we really see what Hayes intentions are. I just hope its not in line with the many previous Wlad victims and after feeling helpless to the jab Haye decides to just survive.

Manos-I was gonna answer your initial question but by the time I'd finished reading your post I realised you'd answered it yourself, in pretty much the way I was thinking.

manos de piedra: I would expect a cagey start and Wlad to be a few rounds up before we really see what Hayes intentions are.
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you'll know what his intentions are when you see what colour t-shirts his corner are wearing. Blue for calm and cagey, red for aggression (so I understand!).

Haye will definitely think that wlad is there to be knocked out, hence his strong desire to fight him over vitali, and tho he may start cagey after a few rounds he will be looking for openings to get inside and land big head shots. No way haye is going into this thinking he can outbox wlad - not with wlads range and jab, and not germany. He knows it has to be KO or nothing, and thats what he'll be looking for. And personally I really believe he'll get it.

here is an article from respected american boxing writer dan rafael. In it he reveals more details of this fight, one being of significant interest: Haye could fight wlad OR vitali in july. Apparently wlad is first choice but if he remains too injured to fight it is contracted that vitali will step in. Apparently the Klits have a similar deal in place for adamek in september. According to their manager boente, haye is happy enough with this. If this is true, which there's no reason to believe otherwise, we could end up seeing haye v vitali instead?? I really dont like this tag team mentality the k-bros have toward boxing. it seems the two men want cant or dont want to be seen as individuals in their own right. Is their dominance made to seem greater because there are two of them and it all blurs into one?

Here's the article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=6186846&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

Head over heart, Haye will fight his last fight on June 25 / July 2.

Think Pacquiao and Hatton.

Sugar Boy, you're not the only one who's tired of the tag-teaming. Other boxers who don't have the same sibling circumstances don't have the luxury of messing their opponents around like it, so why should these two planks be cut any slack?

Surely its actually a benefit to Haye and the fans that if Wlad is unable to fight then Vitali can step in? It makes sense. There will be a big fight either way. All its doing is establishing the obvious in a contract so that theres no need to renegotiate the whole thing again in the even Wlad cant fight.

But they don't solely use it that way, do they Manos? They use their situation to bully their opponents before anyone's even in the ring, and no other champion has that option, which is what-in my eyes-takes the Michael.

I think Haye has almost no chance at all. His only chance is too catch Wlad in the first couple of rounds but, I just do not see that happening.

I think he'll look to circle Wlad early, but get picked off by jabs from range, end up getting discouraged and be stopped by about round 7-8 after barely even trying to hit Wlad.

All this "if you beat one you're tied in to fight the other" and "if one pulls out you're contracted to fight the other" business. What other boxer has the failsafe of his brother doing his dirty work? They're good fighters, but it seems you can't engage with one without the other.

BALTIMORA wrote:But they don't solely use it that way, do they Manos? They use their situation to bully their opponents before anyone's even in the ring, and no other champion has that option, which is what-in my eyes-takes the Michael.

I dont really see it as any different to any big name boxer using their leverage to get the best deal to be honest. In this instance I see it as having almost no effect other than guaranteeing a big fight.

If they werent on an almost identical level of stature then I would see it as a problem but everyone treats them as one and the same because the difference is quite small. If you beat one, then it makes sense to fight the other and so forth. Especially as they are both title holders and the top 2 ranked heavies.

Suppose for argument's sake that an opponent didn't want to fight both-what then? He beats one, doesn't care to fight the other. In any other situation that's the norm-beat a champ and then decide on your next opponent. Treating them alike because they're close in terms of skill is fine, but there's still two opponents to fight. One opponent having to take two opponents as a package is just taking liberties.