JMM/Manny - 24/7 on HBO

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Caught a half-hour of JMM/Manny - 24/7 on HBO yesterday.

Got to say that Marquez does look in fantastic shape probably due to his new strength and conditioning coach, Angel Fernandez. Had to laugh when he talked about a few things that had changed in his routine. He admitted that he was not sorry to give up drinking his own urine every day!! Who would have advised him that this was a good idea in the first place? Is this a common thing for boxers to do?

BALTIMORA wrote:

Day V Lately wrote:I always thought Ricky's 24/7's were entertaining, in fact my main complaint for the Hatton Pacman 24/7, was that there was too much Pacman an not enough Hatton.

I cant even bring myself to watch this 24/7, listening to Roach an Manny tell us how this will prove who is the better fighter in their trilogy, after they ran from JMM an waited for the right to fight him, its a complete con job and frankly, despite the payday, JMM deserves better.

You're spot on to feel that way. I think it was after Pacquiao had beaten David Diaz he was asked about the possibility of a third fight with JMM. His response was that "that business is finished". That to me indicates that he wanted no more to do with Marquez because he knew he'd never have an easy night's work and probably felt deep down that Marquez could beat him.

Lo and behold: a few years later after Pacquiao has managed to rocket through the weight classes not only carrying up his speed but seemingly carrying a decent dig some forty pounds above the weight he first fought at-almost a 40% increase-and he's willing to fight a Marquez who is starting to show signs of age. Add to this that Pacquiao simply HAS to have the fight at 144 because he apparently has such trouble making light welter...

Roach has become a caricature of himself and Ariza...there's something about him too that smacks of sycophancy.

I dont really buy that because at the time Pacquiao moved out of the division and up 3 weight classes. He wasnt to know that 4 years down the line there would be hardly any credible opponents out there for him to face.

The reality is that Marquez now, is still one of the most credible fights out there for him which can make decent money so its being driven by that as much as anything else.

If Pacquiao was avoiding credible challenges elsewhere then I might believe this fight is a scam but there just isnt anyone else out there (bar Mayweather) that is a significantly better opponent than Marquez.

Pacquiao beat Marquez. Fights between the two at that time were always likely to be close, but Pacquiao got the decision and was entitled to move on. Which he did - capturing titles in other weight classes higher up.

Fists of Fury wrote:Marquez had two chances to beat him, and didn't succeed on either occasion (though it was obviously extremely tight)...how many chances should a man have?.

I'm not saying that a beaten opponent should have some right to demand countless rematches in the hope of winning but it's the manner in which Pacquiao seemed so reluctant to engage Marquez for a third time until now. We the public were told by Pacquiao's promoter Bob Arum that the Mosley fight was the best possible option out there at the time and that Marquez wasn't a viable opponent. All of a sudden he is. It's just another display of cynical matchmaking in order to screw gullible fans into buying duff PPVs (Mosley).

Fists of Fury wrote:Also, as I think Jeff or Chris rightly said, Manny could make 140 yes, but he is the top dog, he makes the calls and there is no need for him to drop to 140 if Marquez is willing to fight at 144. This has been the case with the top guy throughout the history of boxing, it is nothing new. Also, as that same person rightly said, Marquez wouldn't have taken the fight if he felt he had zero chance and was going to get annihilated, would he?

Very flawed balti.

Again, I'm not saying Pacquiao should be obliged to move down to a weight that better suits his opponent, but if he's going to portray himself as this fantastic champion he should realise that some people will scrutinise the manner of his wins. It's no different to Calzaghe's win over a knackered Roy Jones or Khan's win over Barrera's grandad. Of course Marquez would take the fight; he's been chasing it since the second fight. He's the one who feels he was badly-done-to over the results in their first two fights. Pacquiao by contrast is giving the impression of someone who didn't want to risk a third fight until the odds had swung significantly in his favour.

I'm not trying to undermine Pacquiao's achievements but rather to demonstrate what could be considered as the flaws in his actions. He didn't want anything to do with Mosley when Mosley wanted the fight. He doesn't want to fight Martinez unless Martinez will fight him at welterweight. He chose to fight Joshua Clottey for Christ's sake! Sure, Clottey was a bigger guy but did any fan actually actively want that fight? We were just fed it as a means to stuff the pockets of Pacquiao and Bob Arum.

Fists of Fury wrote:Marquez had two chances to beat him, and didn't succeed on either occasion (though it was obviously extremely tight)...how many chances should a man have?

Also, as I think Jeff or Chris rightly said, Manny could make 140 yes, but he is the top dog, he makes the calls and there is no need for him to drop to 140 if Marquez is willing to fight at 144. This has been the case with the top guy throughout the history of boxing, it is nothing new. Also, as that same person rightly said, Marquez wouldn't have taken the fight if he felt he had zero chance and was going to get annihilated, would he?

Very flawed balti.

It's not about whether JMM should get numerous chances to beat Manny, that is not the issue. The issue is whether the fight could or should have been made when it would have been meaningful. For what it's worth I think JMM deserved an immediate rematch after their last contest. Instead of pursuing David Diaz Manny should have rematched JMM. However, I'm not about to slate him for not granting JMM the fight as it was his prerogative to seek an easy belt at Lightweight and I understand why he did. His forage into the higher weights has worked out rather well it seems.

I also take the point that there are few options left to Manny now, however I disagree that Manny did not wait until the right time to rematch JMM. I think that is exactly what he has done. Manny is now the draw, He chooses the weight and the stipulations. He gets the lions share of the purse. He has carried his power up whilst Marquez has already looked very uncomfortable operating above 135lb. I think this is a perfect time for Manny to fight JMM and I think that Manny's camp know this and this is why it has been set up now.

Perhaps I am too harsh or too conspiratorial but the only fighter to actually challenge Manny over the last 4 years has been ignored until now. When he is no longer a threat.

Its far different from Calzaghe taking on Jones. Jones was completely washed up and had been knocked out years before. He was barely rated. Marquez is still in many people tp ten pound for pound lists and is the number 1 lightweight. Hes not at his peak, but theres no comparison with Jones or Barrera. Calzaghe also had more credible options in the likes of Pavlik and Dawson, I dont think Pacquiao does unless one thinks hes entirely to blame for the Mayweather non fight.

At the time Pacquiao could have rematched Marquez again, but Im pretty sure if you told most people then he would go on to beat Hatton, de la Hoya, Cotto, Mosely and Margarito across several weight classes they would hardly have blamed him for moving onwards and up.

I dont think he should be expected to take on Martinez. Pacquiao is a small welterweight and Martinez is a middleweight. Its like there is a special set of rules and obligations for Pacquaio that virtually no other boxer in history has been subjected to. Hes not perfect, but no boxer has been. I wouldnt say hes flawless at all but it does seem that he gets judged against higher standards than someone in is position should be. If you applied similar standards on obligations on any of the greats then I think they would all be found wanting in some regards.

For a given defence, in the context of Pacquiaos career and whats available now, I dont see much wrong with fighting Marquez as the biggest problem at the moment is theres not fighters of sufficient calibre to challenge him leading to a lack of options. Not every fight has been perfect but I think if you look at the big picture and Pacquiaos career as a whole then its very reasonable.

Manos my point is that like Calzaghe, Pacquiao could have taken the fight at an earlier juncture but instead waited for no good reason.

Agree entirely about the weight issue, Balti, this 'I'll fight any man any place' that Pacquiao seems to have got doesnt add up, his team choes specific weights for specific opponents, granted his achievements put them in a position to do this, but its still very cynical if you ask me.

Also, I actually went on the sky sports website, an read Roach's comments for this fight, thats really wound me up to be honest, he starts off quite honest then the, we will shut him up once an for all comes along, you do realise your not fighting Freddie, your not the draw here.

Gentleman01 wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Marquez had two chances to beat him, and didn't succeed on either occasion (though it was obviously extremely tight)...how many chances should a man have?

Also, as I think Jeff or Chris rightly said, Manny could make 140 yes, but he is the top dog, he makes the calls and there is no need for him to drop to 140 if Marquez is willing to fight at 144. This has been the case with the top guy throughout the history of boxing, it is nothing new. Also, as that same person rightly said, Marquez wouldn't have taken the fight if he felt he had zero chance and was going to get annihilated, would he?

Very flawed balti.

It's not about whether JMM should get numerous chances to beat Manny, that is not the issue. The issue is whether the fight could or should have been made when it would have been meaningful. For what it's worth I think JMM deserved an immediate rematch after their last contest. Instead of pursuing David Diaz Manny should have rematched JMM. However, I'm not about to slate him for not granting JMM the fight as it was his prerogative to seek an easy belt at Lightweight and I understand why he did. His forage into the higher weights has worked out rather well it seems.

I also take the point that there are few options left to Manny now, however I disagree that Manny did not wait until the right time to rematch JMM. I think that is exactly what he has done. Manny is now the draw, He chooses the weight and the stipulations. He gets the lions share of the purse. He has carried his power up whilst Marquez has already looked very uncomfortable operating above 135lb. I think this is a perfect time for Manny to fight JMM and I think that Manny's camp know this and this is why it has been set up now.

Perhaps I am too harsh or too conspiratorial but the only fighter to actually challenge Manny over the last 4 years has been ignored until now. When he is no longer a threat.

So four years ago you think Pacquiao predicted that 4 years into the future he would be campaingning at welterweight, Marquez would still be active, still be the top lightweight, still be a viable opponent to sell a fight etc? Boxing tends to be a pretty short term thinking sport where things can change in an instant. I find it very hard to believe that Pacquiao could anticipate how the next four years for both fighters would go and base a decision on that. I think he just got on with his own career and 4 years down the line there isnt a whole lot of other options so the fight is an option again.

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos my point is that like Calzaghe, Pacquiao could have taken the fight at an earlier juncture but instead waited for no good reason.

He took the fight twice before, and beat Marquez. Would Marquez have been seen as a greater challenge than Hatton at LWW, de la Hoya or Cotto at WW or Margarito at LMW? I doubt it. Pacquiao drew a line under the fight and decided to move up weights. 4 years later he is running out of opponents and the fight is an option.

manos de piedra wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos my point is that like Calzaghe, Pacquiao could have taken the fight at an earlier juncture but instead waited for no good reason.

He took the fight twice before, and beat Marquez. Would Marquez have been seen as a greater challenge than Hatton at LWW, de la Hoya or Cotto at WW or Margarito at LMW? I doubt it. Pacquiao drew a line under the fight and decided to move up weights. 4 years later he is running out of opponents and the fight is an option.

A no risk option, where Pacquiao has control of all the variables. Whether it would be 'seen 'as a greater challenge, maybe not, it definately would have though, but that is with hindsight. But by the same argument, would JMM at lightweight or SF have a greater challenge than David Diaz.

Day V Lately wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos my point is that like Calzaghe, Pacquiao could have taken the fight at an earlier juncture but instead waited for no good reason.

He took the fight twice before, and beat Marquez. Would Marquez have been seen as a greater challenge than Hatton at LWW, de la Hoya or Cotto at WW or Margarito at LMW? I doubt it. Pacquiao drew a line under the fight and decided to move up weights. 4 years later he is running out of opponents and the fight is an option.

A no risk option, where Pacquiao has control of all the variables. Whether it would be 'seen 'as a greater challenge, maybe not, it definately would have though, but that is with hindsight. But by the same argument, would JMM at lightweight or SF have a greater challenge than David Diaz.

Yeah but what do you want him to do? Fight Marquez every 6 months? I view it as he beat him and decided to move up. A rematch back then would be more competitive than now for sure but thats using hindsight and I think if you look at the fights and accomplishments he acheived since then it more than justifies the decision as a whole. Obviously not every fight he has taken sice was going to be as tough as a Marquez rematch at SFW/LW but I do think its a bit of a stretch to expect him to give Marquez an immediate third rematch when he had failed to beat him in two outings and Pacquiao had come through a tough and very demanding test.

This next fight with Marquez wont be viewed as a particularly historically significant fight for Pacquaio but I do think its a credible fight in the circumstances and pretty par for the course for somebody in Pacquaios position. If you look at the direction Pacquioas career has taken since Marquez, I think it justifies leaving Marquez behind and I see the fact the fight is happening now as really just a reflection of the options available to Pacquiao and the circumstances he finds himself in as opposed to a premeditated plan. He has shown in the past that where there were better fights available in welterweight, he has gone for them. At this point in time there isnt though, so Marquez is worthy of consideration.

Personnally I dont think he came through it, I think it is harsh in the extreme on JMM to say he's had two chances against Pacqiao and failed to beat him, I think it was at best inconclusive, Pacquiao got a bit of a lucky decision (not saying it was a robbery or anything), and ran with it to his multi weights campaign.

I feel for JMM because I think he deserved a third fight at the time, particulary when he followed Manny to lightweight and took on the tougher challenge and succeeded, and I do think, particualry amongst part time boxing fans and Manny's legions of sycophants, that this will be viewed as conclusive proof that Manny got the better of JMM comfortably, which is again very harsh on JMM.

Of course the money and status Manny has made since more than justify his moves since, I think he's been cleverly matched, but that still didnt stop me watching in awe at his performance against Cotto, for me though as a JMM fan, I find this whole event to be a very false one.

i dont think there was anything wrong with picking diaz who was still a relatively tough challenge. the marquey option was still on the table but then ricky said whoever wins between a de la hoya pacquiao fight fights me. can you blame him for taking that fight instead of marquez? lets not forget at that moment in time de la hoya was a HUGE favourite until the weigh in. then he had the fight with hatton who was the man at LWW and a good money spinner could you blame manny for not fighting marquey when he promised the hatton fight. then he took on what seemed to be at the time an even tougher bigger fight against cotto should he have gone down to face marquez after hatton when this fight was there? i dont think so. you can then start asking questions with clottey but perhaps he didnt think a fight at that point was possible or marquez was tied up im unsure. but then he went up yet another weight division lets not forget was outweighed by nearly 20 pounds and beat up marg in a big money fight at cowboys stadium.
then he had a choice mosley wasnt going to be around forever and marquez looked to have the longevity over mosley, shane was still a big name at that point even after being embarassed by fkoyd so he cashed in on him and now through lack of other challenges and big fights he can take marquez on not the optimal path to a third fight but its happening and marquez thinks he can win. you cant really fault manny for the decisions he took he isnt obliged to fight anyone and he took hard challenges along the way and made a lot of money.

Agree with some of what you said Alex, though could never agree that Diaz was a tough option, he was cherry picked out of that division to get the multi wieghts campaign under way, also if I'm gonna be picky, it seemed Manny wanted little to do with Mosely till after the Floyd fight, and preferred to fight the walking punchbag Clottey instead, but thats another argument entirely.

Day V Lately wrote:Personnally I dont think he came through it, I think it is harsh in the extreme on JMM to say he's had two chances against Pacqiao and failed to beat him, I think it was at best inconclusive, Pacquiao got a bit of a lucky decision (not saying it was a robbery or anything), and ran with it to his multi weights campaign.

I feel for JMM because I think he deserved a third fight at the time, particulary when he followed Manny to lightweight and took on the tougher challenge and succeeded, and I do think, particualry amongst part time boxing fans and Manny's legions of sycophants, that this will be viewed as conclusive proof that Manny got the better of JMM comfortably, which is again very harsh on JMM.

Of course the money and status Manny has made since more than justify his moves since, I think he's been cleverly matched, but that still didnt stop me watching in awe at his performance against Cotto, for me though as a JMM fan, I find this whole event to be a very false one.

Im going to have to disagree somewhat. Regardless of opinions on who won the fight - most admit they are close, the fact is Pacquaio got the decision in the rematch and another rematch then would be giving Marquez a third bite at the cherry which I dont think Pacquaio is obliged to give. If Pacquiao had hung around lightweight fighting worse opposition then I would absolutely agree that another installment with Marquez would have been warranted. But he didnt, he went on to acheive success in higher weight classes taking on bigger fights and left Marquez behind which in my view justified the decision not to rematch him. Pacquaio went on to prove he was the better fighter almost without doubt. Marquez distinguished himself of course, but not nearly to Pacquiaos level. I dont think theres any argument to say Marquez took on tougher challenges, at least not as successfully. Only the most extreme Pacquaio fans will say Pacquiao beat Marquez easily (even Pacquiao and Roach dont say this) but theres a big difference in acheivements after and the only logical consclusion would be that Pacquiao outstripped Marquez.

I would agree with you that this fight is not particularly significant and unless Marquez upsets the odds or the fight is a classic it wont be remebered as such. I think its similar to Duran v Leonard III and I think if Pacquiao wins as hes expected to it wont be viewed as a big deal. Where I disagree is that the fight was premeditated or part of some big plan of Pacquiaos to wait for Marquez to slide as opposed to rematch him earlier. I think Pacquiao just got on with his career after Marquez II and that he was entitled to and did so legitimately. I just feel that right now there are no fights at his weight, which hes already small for, and this fight is a credible one to take in the circumstances and makes sense.

Manos I'd agree that Pacquiao most likely didn't plan to wait for Marquez to slide. I think more likely Pacquiao didn't intend on ever having a third fight. It's the manner of the results in the first two fights which left both Marquez and the fans keen onj a third fight. Perhaps it's me being old-fashioned in a way, but I think it shows a certain type of character when fighters are happy to fight trilogies. It's a bit of a dying occurrence in the sport today, when it used to be one of the things which added depth to it.

It definatley the most commercially credible fight, but the fact that it will be the final chapter in an otherwise great trilogy, for me, is an anti climax, almost an after thought.

Also, yea he was entieled to move on, but it was hard on Marquez, and I dont think he moved on having allowed their duel to reach its conclusion imo.

Also, Manos, I jut meant that JMM took on the tougher challenge at LW, should have been a bit clearer there, even though I think Manny has been cleverly matched, even I would agree he has outsrtipped JMM somewhat since they last fought.

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos I'd agree that Pacquiao most likely didn't plan to wait for Marquez to slide. I think more likely Pacquiao didn't intend on ever having a third fight. It's the manner of the results in the first two fights which left both Marquez and the fans keen onj a third fight. Perhaps it's me being old-fashioned in a way, but I think it shows a certain type of character when fighters are happy to fight trilogies. It's a bit of a dying occurrence in the sport today, when it used to be one of the things which added depth to it.

I would agree I dont think he ever intended on a third Marquez fight, but he did fight a trilogy with Morales for example and there isnt really any getting around the fact Marquez had two fights with him and won neither.

I certainly would not have objected to a third fight, but I think the reasons and remainder of Pacquiaos career justified it. We can look back and say that a third fight would have been great, but who at the time would have believed Pacquiao capable of going on to do what he did? Theres a tendancy to look back and view Marquez II as the last real challenge Pacquiao had but when you step back to consider what he actually went on to do I think very few would have predicted it and it does seem to more than make up for a lack of a third fight back in 2008. I could only really criticise him for not having a second rematch if he never went on to anything further but I dont think that accusation can be levelled at him.

manos de piedra wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos I'd agree that Pacquiao most likely didn't plan to wait for Marquez to slide. I think more likely Pacquiao didn't intend on ever having a third fight. It's the manner of the results in the first two fights which left both Marquez and the fans keen onj a third fight. Perhaps it's me being old-fashioned in a way, but I think it shows a certain type of character when fighters are happy to fight trilogies. It's a bit of a dying occurrence in the sport today, when it used to be one of the things which added depth to it.

I would agree I dont think he ever intended on a third Marquez fight, but he did fight a trilogy with Morales for example and there isnt really any getting around the fact Marquez had two fights with him and won neither.

I certainly would not have objected to a third fight, but I think the reasons and remainder of Pacquiaos career justified it. We can look back and say that a third fight would have been great, but who at the time would have believed Pacquiao capable of going on to do what he did? Theres a tendancy to look back and view Marquez II as the last real challenge Pacquiao had but when you step back to consider what he actually went on to do I think very few would have predicted it and it does seem to more than make up for a lack of a third fight back in 2008. I could only really criticise him for not having a second rematch if he never went on to anything further but I dont think that accusation can be levelled at him.

I'd agree completely with the highlighted part. He's not done his career any harm at all from lightweight upwards, it's just that people-myself included-will always be cynical about his reluctance to fight Marquez a third time. It's not helped by Roach and Ariza making statements to the effect of "we want to put this business to bed" and wanting to 2shut Marquez up once and for all". Anyone who wants to look past the statistics on paper (which is anyone who wants to understand more about a situation) will see that those statements ring a little hollow. None of this takes anything away from the fact that the guy started out at what, 106lbs and is now tearing up a division forty pounds heavier.

BALTIMORA wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos I'd agree that Pacquiao most likely didn't plan to wait for Marquez to slide. I think more likely Pacquiao didn't intend on ever having a third fight. It's the manner of the results in the first two fights which left both Marquez and the fans keen onj a third fight. Perhaps it's me being old-fashioned in a way, but I think it shows a certain type of character when fighters are happy to fight trilogies. It's a bit of a dying occurrence in the sport today, when it used to be one of the things which added depth to it.

I would agree I dont think he ever intended on a third Marquez fight, but he did fight a trilogy with Morales for example and there isnt really any getting around the fact Marquez had two fights with him and won neither.

I certainly would not have objected to a third fight, but I think the reasons and remainder of Pacquiaos career justified it. We can look back and say that a third fight would have been great, but who at the time would have believed Pacquiao capable of going on to do what he did? Theres a tendancy to look back and view Marquez II as the last real challenge Pacquiao had but when you step back to consider what he actually went on to do I think very few would have predicted it and it does seem to more than make up for a lack of a third fight back in 2008. I could only really criticise him for not having a second rematch if he never went on to anything further but I dont think that accusation can be levelled at him.

I'd agree completely with the highlighted part. He's not done his career any harm at all from lightweight upwards, it's just that people-myself included-will always be cynical about his reluctance to fight Marquez a third time. It's not helped by Roach and Ariza making statements to the effect of "we want to put this business to bed" and wanting to 2shut Marquez up once and for all". Anyone who wants to look past the statistics on paper (which is anyone who wants to understand more about a situation) will see that those statements ring a little hollow. None of this takes anything away from the fact that the guy started out at what, 106lbs and is now tearing up a division forty pounds heavier.

Yeah I see what your saying about Roach/Arum etc but I just view it as talk and trying to sell the fight really. I think they know that Marquez is not the threat he was and the timing here favours Pacquiao significantly. I think they are trying to just give the fight some edge as most fans out there are not giving Marquez much of a chance at all. So much so that I actually think hes being sold a bit short. Fully expect Pacquaio to win but maybe not quite as easily as is being predicted. Seems most arent giving Marquez a chance of even winning a round!

manos de piedra wrote:

Gentleman01 wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Marquez had two chances to beat him, and didn't succeed on either occasion (though it was obviously extremely tight)...how many chances should a man have?

Also, as I think Jeff or Chris rightly said, Manny could make 140 yes, but he is the top dog, he makes the calls and there is no need for him to drop to 140 if Marquez is willing to fight at 144. This has been the case with the top guy throughout the history of boxing, it is nothing new. Also, as that same person rightly said, Marquez wouldn't have taken the fight if he felt he had zero chance and was going to get annihilated, would he?

Very flawed balti.

It's not about whether JMM should get numerous chances to beat Manny, that is not the issue. The issue is whether the fight could or should have been made when it would have been meaningful. For what it's worth I think JMM deserved an immediate rematch after their last contest. Instead of pursuing David Diaz Manny should have rematched JMM. However, I'm not about to slate him for not granting JMM the fight as it was his prerogative to seek an easy belt at Lightweight and I understand why he did. His forage into the higher weights has worked out rather well it seems.

I also take the point that there are few options left to Manny now, however I disagree that Manny did not wait until the right time to rematch JMM. I think that is exactly what he has done. Manny is now the draw, He chooses the weight and the stipulations. He gets the lions share of the purse. He has carried his power up whilst Marquez has already looked very uncomfortable operating above 135lb. I think this is a perfect time for Manny to fight JMM and I think that Manny's camp know this and this is why it has been set up now.

Perhaps I am too harsh or too conspiratorial but the only fighter to actually challenge Manny over the last 4 years has been ignored until now. When he is no longer a threat.

So four years ago you think Pacquiao predicted that 4 years into the future he would be campaingning at welterweight, Marquez would still be active, still be the top lightweight, still be a viable opponent to sell a fight etc? Boxing tends to be a pretty short term thinking sport where things can change in an instant. I find it very hard to believe that Pacquiao could anticipate how the next four years for both fighters would go and base a decision on that. I think he just got on with his own career and 4 years down the line there isnt a whole lot of other options so the fight is an option again.

Of course Manny didn't predict four years into the future. I'm unsure where it is that I said he did? He simply decided not to rematch JMM for whatever reason for 4 years. He has decided to rematch him now. Coincidentally JMM is not perceived to pose any kind of threat at this time and fighting at 144lb. I am disappointed that this fight did not take place when it would have been both competitive and meaningful.

Gentleman01 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Gentleman01 wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Marquez had two chances to beat him, and didn't succeed on either occasion (though it was obviously extremely tight)...how many chances should a man have?

Also, as I think Jeff or Chris rightly said, Manny could make 140 yes, but he is the top dog, he makes the calls and there is no need for him to drop to 140 if Marquez is willing to fight at 144. This has been the case with the top guy throughout the history of boxing, it is nothing new. Also, as that same person rightly said, Marquez wouldn't have taken the fight if he felt he had zero chance and was going to get annihilated, would he?

Very flawed balti.

It's not about whether JMM should get numerous chances to beat Manny, that is not the issue. The issue is whether the fight could or should have been made when it would have been meaningful. For what it's worth I think JMM deserved an immediate rematch after their last contest. Instead of pursuing David Diaz Manny should have rematched JMM. However, I'm not about to slate him for not granting JMM the fight as it was his prerogative to seek an easy belt at Lightweight and I understand why he did. His forage into the higher weights has worked out rather well it seems.

I also take the point that there are few options left to Manny now, however I disagree that Manny did not wait until the right time to rematch JMM. I think that is exactly what he has done. Manny is now the draw, He chooses the weight and the stipulations. He gets the lions share of the purse. He has carried his power up whilst Marquez has already looked very uncomfortable operating above 135lb. I think this is a perfect time for Manny to fight JMM and I think that Manny's camp know this and this is why it has been set up now.

Perhaps I am too harsh or too conspiratorial but the only fighter to actually challenge Manny over the last 4 years has been ignored until now. When he is no longer a threat.

So four years ago you think Pacquiao predicted that 4 years into the future he would be campaingning at welterweight, Marquez would still be active, still be the top lightweight, still be a viable opponent to sell a fight etc? Boxing tends to be a pretty short term thinking sport where things can change in an instant. I find it very hard to believe that Pacquiao could anticipate how the next four years for both fighters would go and base a decision on that. I think he just got on with his own career and 4 years down the line there isnt a whole lot of other options so the fight is an option again.

Of course Manny didn't predict four years into the future. I'm unsure where it is that I said he did? He simply decided not to rematch JMM for whatever reason for 4 years. He has decided to rematch him now. Coincidentally JMM is not perceived to pose any kind of threat at this time and fighting at 144lb. I am disappointed that this fight did not take place when it would have been both competitive and meaningful.

Its happened twice before. Pacquiao has already won one. I dont think its a coincidence that hes fighting him now, at 144. I think its a product of the fact he moved up weights long ago and has beaten most of the competition in his division leaving few realistic options for him. Marquez just happens to remain one of them.

I think its too revisionist to look back and say Pacquiao avoided the rematch with Marquez who was the only fighter to challenge him.

Hatton, Cotto, Margarito, De la Hoya since then should all have posed challenges. They didnt because Pacquiao improved. Straight after the Marquez rematch, the likes of Cotto and Margarito would be scoffed at for demanding catchweight fights at WW and LMW and be seen as being unreasonable. These fights would be viewed as mismatches to most. Fast forward a couple of years and suddenly its Pacquiao who is the bad guy for wanting it. The tables turned completely. The more he acheives, the greater the demands placed on him. Now it that he should be fighting Martinez at light middle. I suspect if he beat Martinez at light middle then the naysayers would complain he didnt beat him at full MW or criticise him for a catchweight or something.

I agree with you that a Marquez fight would have been better in 2008 as opposed now and would be more competitive. But in 2008 Pacquaio was a handy underdog to beat de la Hoya which was seen as a far taller order at WW than a rematch with Marquez at 130 or 135. The fight is happening now because there arent a whole host of options out there. It didnt happen before now because there were alot of other options. I dont think its a coincidence or premeditated.

I dont think theres any argument that a third fight with Marquez would have been more competitive in 2008, but the implication seems to be that Pacquiao either should have fought him again then or has conciously schemed for Marquez to age before striking. I would disagree with both. Like I said in an earlier post, if Pacquiao had gone on to fight nobodies then it would have been a valid criticism in my view but he went on to take on some big fights and big challenges at weights above Marquez, and having drawn with and then beaten him I dont think there was a massive obligation to fight him yet again, even though it would most likely have again been very competitive and fan friendly.

Trust me this fight will not be close Pacquiao will absolutely destroy Marquez who is not in the same class

Waingro wrote:Trust me this fight will not be close Pacquiao will absolutely destroy Marquez who is not in the same class

Who would you say has the most quality though?

BALTIMORA wrote:

Waingro wrote:Trust me this fight will not be close Pacquiao will absolutely destroy Marquez who is not in the same class

Who would you say has the most quality though?

Pacquiao by far. Dont get me wrong Marquez is a quality fighter but just not in Pacquaios class he is also old now I reckon Pacquiao will beat him even worse than Mayweather did.

Waingro wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

Waingro wrote:Trust me this fight will not be close Pacquiao will absolutely destroy Marquez who is not in the same class

Who would you say has the most quality though?

Pacquiao by far. Dont get me wrong Marquez is a quality fighter but just not in Pacquaios class he is also old now I reckon Pacquiao will beat him even worse than Mayweather did.

So are you saying Pacquiao has more quality or that he has better quality?
Plus, to quote a wise man: "never write of(sic) a great fighter".