Mavs Weekly European & Challenge tour update - WGC HSBC Champions

First topic message reminder :

So to start the weeks update with a little touch of de Ja vu, in as much that we are again congratulating Sergio Garcia on a tournament win in Spain. The thing El Nino can take from his 2nd victory in as many weeks is that this time he closed out when not playing his best, unlike the previous week where he left the field in his wake. Moving back up to number 18 in the world is a great step on the road to recovery for Sergio and let’s hope it’s truly just the begining.
So now we move forward to the WGC HSBC Champions event at Sheshan International Club in Shanghai.
Last year this event became a bit of a 2 horse race between Francesco Molinari and Lee Westwood. Notable tied 3rd place finshers were Luke Donald who has now gone onto become World No.1 and Richie Ramsey who has hit form in his last 2 events before returning to China.

SO what do we know about this week?

1. Firstly the main notable absentee, OWGR #1 Luke Donald. No point really highlighting the field and trying to pick a winner as except for Luke and a few high profile yanks everyone that is anyone plus a few more is here.

2. 11 of the finishers inside the top 12 at Sheshan in 2010 were European tour members

3. There will be 13 major winners competing at Sheshan this week

4. Established in 2009 by Diasuke Maruyama and then matched by Ernie Els and Rory McIlroy, in the
same event, the course record stands at 63

5. There has only ever been one player to win this event after leading every round from round 1 through 4 and that’s defending champion Francesco Molinari

6. The course opened in 2004, Measures at 7253 yards and holes 16, 17 and 18 are course designers Neil Haworth’s perfect picture finish to his course.

Not much else to say about this event other than it’s on at ridiculous o’clock in the morning so viewing figures will really vary which is what makes this the hardest WGC to follow unless your able to be up at the crack of dawn.

Challenge Tour

So its grand final week on the CT, this is it. It’s do or die moment for many players looking to make the tour proper in the very last event. The ones that are locked on to make are likely to be numbers 1-12 on the money list with the ones outside that number likely to fluctuate over the course of the event.
San Domenico is the venue for this event and last year’s winner our very own (through my association and constant will for him to make it) Matt Haines secured number 2 spot on the CT Money list, so many will be looking to emulate that this week.

Tommy Fleetwood who has led the money list for so long this season see’s himself at #2 now on the list having been passed by fellow Englishman Sam Little, both playing will want to secure bragging rights to being the number 1 ranked player to have finished the season on the CT and with just over 11000Euros separating them it really is going to the wire.
So can someone from this year’s CT emulate the likes of previous graduate Ed Molinari and go on to win the following season on the ET proper or will they be heading back to Q-School next year. One things for sure for all of these guys whatever happens the work really begins this Thursday either way


*MODS any chance of the usual weekly sticky please

Simba,
Calling someone an IDIOT is not constructive.

Davie,

PM for Simba

Super,

I will respond to you if you take a more reasonable tone.

Here is my point. Accuracy being in the bag for all the pros. The length gives one a great advantage over another. I have never said to get longer at the expense of accuracy. What I am saying is that if Luke can be 20 yards longer, he would be nearly unbeatable like a Phil and Tiger on their best days. Don't you get that. It's so simple and clear in front of you.

Luke has gained about 10 yards off his tee ball in the last year or two. That is why he is much more a threat than before. He has always had his short games since getting on tour. But he was David Toms short. Now he is middle of the pack.

Firstly to address the point of nice written threads being closed off. The only thing that will do that is the constant banding around of terms like idiot when aimed at other posters.

Secondly being long over accurate is your opinion because, I, SR, or other posters disagree and point to facts like accuracy over distance etc does not mean were know it alls.

Donalds increased his distance yes, but by increasing his accuracy by 10percent aliied to the fact he is number 1 for pitching on tour this year leads to a lower scoring average and his number of top 10's doesn't lie.

Also distance being key! 2 of the top 4 players for par 5 scoring average this year Donald & Stricker, both very average length off the tee.

Finally swing speed isn't about muscle mass, its about fluidity of swing and ability to generate hand speed at impact by virtue of a late hit, allowing the wrists to fire at the very last minute. A club 0 hack can produce as much as any tour pro, its how they control it that differs..... Mysti has alreadt stated his, so here's mine, 6iron clubhead speed measured last week when setting up some demo irons 97mph oh and for interest I'm a +1 hack

Simba wrote:Mysti,

Do you seriously think that your club head speed is greater than Luke's. Have you ever played with a pro before?

Sure, I can swing 115 mph on my Nike VR Driver. But I won't hit flush most of the times. That's why my safe swing is 105mph. Even when I do swing hard I don't pretend to think that my club head spead with be in the pro ranks. To generate great clubs head speed, you need A. a fast swing. B. a near perfect hit.

BTW, what's do you think is the average swing spead of the most amateurs? 90mph? Pros are 115mph. Not even close.

i am a long hitter but i am wild at present(but my 'smash factor' is still very high). just to rusty- would like to tone it down but i physically cant- been playing since i was 8.

tour average swing speed with a 5 iron is about 94 mph. i have been measured 5 plus times recently at 94 with a 6.

driver average is on average 20mph more.- which as you say is 115 mph- but that is with a driver

point is there are plenty of amatuers that swing faster than many tour pros- and i am one of them

Sorry! But super has a way of getting to people, particularly me.

Mysti,

I wish all are as blessed as you with a natural ability to swing fast. Accuracy can be acquired through hard work and dedication. But you are usually born with length. As they always say, you can't teach length.

Oh, I forget. How many weekend hackers can swing as fast as you? I know how many in my area, 1 out of 100.

Simba,

What you are saying is all if's and but's it's so obvious that it doesn't need mentioning. It's like saying that if Westwood had a better short game he would be unbeatable. If you're Aunty had balls she'd be your uncle.
Donald is doing so very well at the moment that he doesn't need to be longer than he is.

As for you saying pro's are accurate, well it's a case of some are more accurate than others clearly isn't it? but they lack other aspects in their games. Many decent amateurs will be more accurate than pro's.

Also, don't you dare tell me to take a more reasonable tone. It wasn't me calling people "Idiots". You are bringing down the tone of this forum, not me.

not many simba but you did say the best scratch golfers not your average weekend hacker- I am sure there are on average(in my county) at the established clubs which there are possibly over 100 in surrey there will be about 15 or so in each club that would have a quicker swing speed than the slowest players on tour.

Mav,

Luke has always been a great short game player. The difference between this year and the last few are health and extra length he has gained from hard training.

I have never said swing speed is hinged only on mass. Swing speed is a combination of many factors of which body mass is one very important factor. I don't care how smooth Luke swings, he is never going to be swinging faster than Gary Woodland. Have you seen the legs and thighs on that boy?

Also, you, s_r, have always hang on about me being a length will cure all person. It is so erroneous! What I have stated is that given Luke's less physical stature and ability, he will never be the dominant player. He will have to rely on his smarts and mental edge to win. And that is just not going to be enough against the likes of all these young athletes coming into today's game.

The timing of this year was perfect, with Tiger, Striker struggling with injuries; Westwood, Phil losing their putters, much less putting strokes; Rory being busy banging no.1 women tennis player; Adam Scott being Cat-whipped by his bagman; Furyc generally getting too old; Ernie losing his putter and swing intermittently; Sergio recovering at a nearby psychiatric ward; with Kaymer talking himself into messing up a perfectly nice swing to just play a draw so he can play Augusta National; with GMac drinking too many celebratory cold ones; with Dustin Johnson night clubbing every bar in town; with Bubba being Bubba; with Matt Kuchar being so boring;
LUKE DONALD seized the opportunity and was able to sneak in with a bunch of top tens and 1 subpar field stroke win. Now kudos to him, but that's far from dominant and being the best. Not in my book.

Time has a way of settling the score.

mystiroakey wrote:not many simba but you did say the best scratch golfers not your average weekend hacker- I am sure there are on average(in my county) at the established clubs which there are possibly over 100 in surrey there will be about 15 or so in each club that would have a quicker swing speed than the slowest players on tour.

Inadvertently, you just proved my point. Which is everything being equal, the distance, speed, explosiveness makes a big difference. The reason, people don't become scratch golfers is that they can't swing fast enough to get ate the hit that will get you easier approach shots.

What does nationality have anything to do with this conversation? Why r u so hang on about where a player is from. As a matter fact. American produced Luke Donald. He became the great player he is because of his choosing US as his home and place to hone his skills. But what's that got to do with his success and this debat or my not,liking him

I do like him a lot. You are so insecure about ur own identity that everything someone saying something negative about your country man you make it a us vs Yank issue. How pitiful!

Oh god, so now you are writing in text speak. Confirmation indeed as if we needed it.

Simba, you are a great laugh. Welcome back out from the ward. We've missed you. (did you meet Sergio?)

I think Simba's editing his own script again!

I caught it last night Kwini, I'm playing catch up on this thread and a number of the posts don't make sense compared to what they reference and what is actually there now. Spoils the thread in my opinion.

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:I caught it last night Kwini, I'm playing catch up on this thread and a number of the posts don't make sense compared to what they reference and what is actually there now. Spoils the thread in my opinion.

Never a truer word said......

In an effort to get back on topic... was anyone else a bit disappointed that of all the talent in contention at the start of Sunday that nobody was able to make a fight of it once Kaymer got in front. It was a brilliant final round from him but his only challenge in the end was to get past Jacobsen. It had the potential to be a hell of a finish but Oosthuizen, Scott and Westwood were very dissapointing, while McIlroy, GMac and Casey weren't much better.

Y I Man wrote:PM for Simba

Have to say I don't personally have a problem with Simba... massive difference of opinions yes, he's the archetypal American golf fan, but he's still entitled to his opinions. And it's good to have someone from his PoV on the boards to counteract us Euro-centric types, in my opinion

Completely agree Ned, but only until the debate deteriorates to a slagging match, and calling a fellow poster an "IDIOT" is a bridge too far in my mind.

Sort of like people swearing, which I do all the time, "because they don't have the wit to say anything else".

Simba-speak makes for excellent debates, no doubt about it, but too far will always be too far.

Redrage wrote:In an effort to get back on topic... was anyone else a bit disappointed that of all the talent in contention at the start of Sunday that nobody was able to make a fight of it once Kaymer got in front. It was a brilliant final round from him but his only challenge in the end was to get past Jacobsen. It had the potential to be a hell of a finish but Oosthuizen, Scott and Westwood were very dissapointing, while McIlroy, GMac and Casey weren't much better.

Totally agree RR, though it was a magnificent round from Kaymer, the finish was very much an anti-climax as no-one challenged not even Freddie Jac.

Westwoods round highlighted how poor and frail his shortgame really is. McDowell had a fine round but anyone who calls himself GMac I find a little to hard to take too, but nice to see a return of some form after a dreadful year. Likewise with Oosthuizen good to see him ending the year way better than he started it.

Of all the final rounds though most enjoyable for me was Casey's a real mixed bag, miraculous chip in and fine shots from the rough with those popeye like forearms hopefully now his divorce is settled he'll return to good form

Back on topic RR:

I think the early part of the course gave the players more to think about than before. The pins didn't appear to be very accessible unless you played a stellar shot. The greens also seemed to be firmer and the wind didn't really suit the shots needed.

We didn't really see anyone lighting it up apart from Casey, he got himself in touch with the leaders, but remember he started 6 shots back. It was going to be a big ask for him to win this thing, he needed some help with the leaders coming back rather than going away from him. I think he started to press a bit more and that's when things started to go awry but all credit to him for hanging in there especially on 14 and 16.

The other main pretenders, McIlory, McDowell and Westwood never really got themselves going; their play wasn't enough to drive each other on and probably Westwood's woes dragged the group down. McIlroy's putting didn't help, I think on one hole his birdie putt was shorter than his par putt. McDowell ended up with a tidy round as the group's scoring improved on the back nine.

The lead group, Freddy, Louis and Scott couldn't get themselves together either. Louis was very tidy from tee to green but just couldn't buy a putt. Probably the worst thing for Scott was his finish on Saturday; he got himself back in touch but his play didn't really deserve it. He was just as wayward on the final day but couldn't keep the card clean. Freddy lost his magic putter that he was using on Saturday, any putt he had disappeared, on Sunday a different story.

Kaymer took a while to get going but once the putts and bunker shots started to drop his tail came up and he just kept it going. He made a couple of errors on 14 and 16 but didn't pay for them as others failed to capitalise. Shooting 63 he deserved to win it in the end but if Freddy holed a couple of putts it could have put a very different complexion on the tournament.

Continuing with the theme on this thread; if is a very big word in golf and it applies to all of us not just the pros.

NedB-H wrote:

Y I Man wrote:PM for Simba

Have to say I don't personally have a problem with Simba... massive difference of opinions yes, he's the archetypal American golf fan, but he's still entitled to his opinions. And it's good to have someone from his PoV on the boards to counteract us Euro-centric types, in my opinion

for sure

Did Simba get banned? I haven't seen him on here since the dreaded "you have a PM"

Well, he's American, and he likes golf, so presumably he's in Church.

Davie wrote:Did Simba get banned? I haven't seen him on here since the dreaded "you have a PM"

Don't think so, he was on here after that for a good bit. He has had all day to talk himself into more trouble though.