Nadal pulls out of Paris

First topic message reminder :

http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id/7184664/rafael-nadal-pulls-paris-focus-atp-finals

I seems like Nadal acknowledges that he can only lose in Paris.

Sure Calder, I am not trying to convince anyone, just trying to raise questions. The question is do I go a long way to bash Nadal or do some posters go a long way to find him circumstancial excuses?

Let's just keep an open mind.

lydian wrote:Federer has pulled out of quite a few events late in his time (e.g. Halle 2011 anyone?)...they all do it from time to time.

Do you really think an ATP250 squeezed between FO and Wimbledon after a tough clay season can compare with TMS Paris after 4 weeks rest?

I havn't heard anything to indicate that Nadal has a physical problem. I'm not sure from what I've heard he ever intended playing.

He doesn't have to play in Paris because of the number of matches he has played. Quite rightly he is making use of this rule. Maybe he just doesn't like this tournament or maybe its tactical. I don't see anything in it to indicate a weakness.

If other players would like to be able to skip a masters just because they want to... easy peasy just play a few more matches on the tour and they will have the same earned privilege.

If I didn't have to play Paris (as seems to be the case with Nadal) I certainly wouldn't in his shoes; it's a very fast surface and he certainly wouldn't last long there. His confidence doesn't need another blow before WTF.
He's done his bit in Asia...

Thats irrelevant Tenez, the point is all players pull out of events at late notice at times. Every player withdrawal hits the events - and you can argue Federer's withdrawal from Halle was much more damaging for them than Nadal pulling out of Paris TMS - Federer knows that he's the biggest crowd draw (and hence income) by far that Halle has, infact he almost owns the event with his past wins! Not surprisingly the Halle TD was spitting feathers about it.

I think its a bit of a non-story to be honest, its late season and these things happen...often.

I would guess its more to do with priorities rather than surface. At this time of year its not just Nadal who appears to lack a bit of motivation. Nadal has often said he tries to peak in spring and summer. If he's playing well he can win on any surface.

I don't buy the idea that someone that has won (and lost and won again) as much as Nadal is running scared.

Agree. Nadal will know the effort vs result for Paris isnt as much a priority than somewhere else. They need to look at the calendar again, having a TMS so late in the season is dragging out the calendar too long. After all havent the WTA already had their end of years champs? The men should be having their WTF early November latest then give the guys a break (besides a few small 250s for those who want to do it) until the new year - otherwise its always going to be pre-event withdrawals or injuries stacking up. Paris gets hit hard every year like this.

lydian wrote:Thats irrelevant Tenez, the point is all players pull out of events at late notice at times. Every player withdrawal hits the events - and you

It's not irrelevant to me and many other tennis fans. This is just another weird decision from Nadal. No-one can give a proper reason for his withdrawing.

hawkeye wrote: If he's playing well he can win on any surface.

What a waste then not to take the Paris opportunity to catch up with Djoko and staying ahead of teh chasing pack.

I doubt if Nadal is interested in ranking points. In fact he's always saying that he isn't.

Tenez wrote:No-one can give a proper reason for his withdrawing.

How about:

1. He has 0pts to defend in Paris - nothing to lose by pulling out
2. The crowd dont particularly like him there, never have for some reason
3. Its not a great surface for him anyway - might as well save energy for WTF and DC
4. He has 1000pts to defend at WTF (he doesnt want to slip to 3rd in coming months...)
5. He has the DC final coming up, so more tennis to yet play...and they're 5 setters dont forget, and DC is v.important to Rafa
6. A gap will allow him to find his mojo after a mentally tough 2011 - and perhaps work on some new areas
7. He's getting wise about managing his schedule (like Federer who has pulled out of TMS before...)
8. Rafa has played 12 more matches than ANYONE else in 2011 already, 11 more than Nole, 14 more than Andy, 18 more than Federer.

What other reasons do you need Tenez??? Federer withdrew from TMS Shanghai but I didnt see long threads questioning his decision about that...yet everything Nadal does is questioned to the nth degree!

"It's been a difficult decision to take, but I understand that it is what I need to do right now to prepare well for the end of this season and also for 2012".

He has clearly stated his decision, it should be respected.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2011/11/Features/Paris-Nadal-Pulls-Out.aspx

lydian wrote:What other reasons do you need Tenez??? Federer withdrew from TMS Shanghai but I didnt see long threads questioning his decision about that...yet everything Nadal does is questioned to the nth degree!

You keep comparing the two when it's not comparable. Had djoko pulled out of Shanghai without an injury I would have raised it too.

The 8 points are certainly not relevant cause they don't explain why a rested player woudl not play a TMS less than a 45mn flight to London.

I stand by the point that Nadal doesn;t want to be found naked again like in Tokyo and Shanghai.

1. The surface in Paris is far from ideal for his game.

2. He has no points to defend from last year in Paris so why bother considering reason 1.

3. And because of reason 1 is there any point playing in a tournament that looks like only gaining Nadal a blow to confidence going into the big end of season finale and the Davis Cup.

4. In the ranking stakes he is in a kind of no-mans land. Too far behind Djokovic to make in-roads and a big enough cushion over Andy Murray for him not too worry too much about ranking points.

You could make as long a list for all the players on the tour.

Of course you could Tenez and there are a number of pros opting out of Paris but we are not having discussions about their non-attendance are we?

Tenez wrote:Sure Calder, I am not trying to convince anyone, just trying to raise questions. The question is do I go a long way to bash Nadal or do some posters go a long way to find him circumstancial excuses?

Let's just keep an open mind.

I think you're subsequent posts show that it is unequivocally the former. There are clear reasons, and so what if they apply to other players as well in some cases? If they have played enough matches they can pull out too. Sure, he could play but he has earned the right not to, and is exercising that right.

Positively 4th Street wrote:

Tenez wrote:Sure Calder, I am not trying to convince anyone, just trying to raise questions. The question is do I go a long way to bash Nadal or do some posters go a long way to find him circumstancial excuses?

Let's just keep an open mind.

Sure, he could play but he has earned the right not to, and is exercising that right.

You see. Because of that I tend to think it;s the latter. The excuses or reasons are poor. He is just using a right...like last year he used the injury card, perfectly entitled to use that one too. But it's a strange patter, his fans are desperate to ignore or overlook.

I am not the only one who thinks his withdrawal is difficult to justify...even though we all agree he has "the right".

Tenez

Why do you think Nadal is not playing Paris?

It could be that he just doesn't like the tournament. Not convinced by this idea that he is worried about losing to a lower-ranked player. He's lost to them in the past, Garcia-Lopez et al, and it has hardly had major ramifications. I am not desperate to make excuses or not see anything, I don't know what it is I am supposed to be seeing. I look forward to your reply to hawkeye...

hawkeye wrote:Tenez

Why do you think Nadal is not playing Paris?

It's just the same pattern we have seen for the last 7 years with Nadal. His form drops considerably after the USO and he simply doesn't want to be exposed by lower ranked players after that. Which player goes through a similar cyclical form on the tour? No-one!

I might be wrong but there is little to prove me wrong out there.

Rafa has signed up for that exhibition in South America in December hasn't he - I guess he has decided that something had to give in his schedule.

I don't see what all the fuss is.

Bottom line is Nadal is a professional. LF and Lydian have provided the facts. Nadal is "managing" his schedule. To play suggest otherwise and ignore the other factors when other players do the same is cynical.

Given that Nadal has knee problems, it would be reckless and unprofessional not to manage your schedule or body for that matter.

I want to see players play at their best and fittest, not half cut and looking ragged.

Tenez wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Tenez

Why do you think Nadal is not playing Paris?

It's just the same pattern we have seen for the last 7 years with Nadal. His form drops considerably after the USO and he simply doesn't want to be exposed by lower ranked players after that. Which player goes through a similar cyclical form on the tour? No-one!

I might be wrong but there is little to prove me wrong out there.

Your first point is a good one, but I don't believe in the not being exposed aspect. He's opting out of 1 tournament! How exposed could he get? Yes, he's not playing Basel or Valencia as he preferred to play Barcelona, for understandable (surely!) reasons.

I would go further and say his form used to drop after Wimbledon until a few years ago. Some of this can surely be put down to surface changes though, it's like saying Murray has cyclical form as he wins nothing on clay and then always does well on hard courts, especially at this time of year. That's one player I propose who's similarly cyclical without even trying hard to find one.

Tenez wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Tenez

Why do you think Nadal is not playing Paris?

It's just the same pattern we have seen for the last 7 years with Nadal. His form drops considerably after the USO and he simply doesn't want to be exposed by lower ranked players after that. Which player goes through a similar cyclical form on the tour? No-one!

I might be wrong but there is little to prove me wrong out there.

Well yes there is a pattern. Nadal wins practically everything (or this year gets to the finals and plays maximum amount of matches) in spring and summer and goes into the end of year a bit jaded. Not just physically but mentally. It is a rare problem to have but Djokovic has been struggling with it lately...

He's said many times that for him spring and summer are a priority. I agree. This is where the big historical tournaments are. This is where the big audiences are. Wins in these tournaments will be remembered. The one exeption is the Davis Cup. If Nadal plays this at the end of the year theres nothing half hearted about the way he plays. These end of year tournaments may be important for chasing ranking points but its doubtful that that alone is motivation for Nadal (or Federer for that matter).

As for Nadal not wanting to play lower ranked players? Where is evidence for that?

Your not implying something fishy is going on I hope... I'm intrigued by your dislike of this player.

Positively 4th Street wrote:
I would go further and say his form used to drop after Wimbledon until a few years ago. Some of this can surely be put down to surface changes though, it's like saying Murray has cyclical form as he wins nothing on clay and then always does well on hard courts, especially at this time of year. That's one player I propose who's similarly cyclical without even trying hard to find one.

Yes - I agree about his form droping after wimbledon in the past but in fact to be precise we should say "after Canada" as he won it twice there, which kind of throws away the surface argument.

Murray, good choice, can be cyclical too but I don't think it's linked to surface either. He has been worse right after the AO, in the early spring Dubai IW and Miami of late than he has been on clay where he gave Djoko his toughest challenge last spring.

I think Tenez is saying that he isn't so much managing his schedule as managing his exposure. After all, he doesn't manage his schedule much on clay does he?

hawkeye wrote:
As for Nadal not wanting to play lower ranked players? Where is evidence for that?

I'd say he doesn't want to play anyone. He might not want to be seen running out of steam in a 3 setter and being bagelled by a top player like Murray.

Your not implying something fishy is going on I hope... I'm intrigued by your dislike of this player.

I am just raising questions, like we shoudl all do with our gouvernments or tennis players. I am pointing out how important is his physique in his game.

I think the inference is that Rafael Nadal is working hard in the gym on his cycling machine, pedalling and working hard on the athletics track, bipedalling.

And what is wrong with that?

what's bipaddling?

Maybe he's just spending some quality time with his medical team getting himself ready for next year.

Nadal is wisely boycotting laughable tournaments like Paris to prepare for the season of kings, the clay court season.

He tried these tinpot tournaments last season and saw the hilarious lack of quality for himself. Hopefully he has now learnt from mistakes, and will boycott the Grand Shams as well.

The only worthwhile tennis starts in April and ends in May.

noleisthebest wrote:what's bipaddling?

It's related to canoes.

Tenez wrote:

hawkeye wrote:
As for Nadal not wanting to play lower ranked players? Where is evidence for that?

I'd say he doesn't want to play anyone. He might not want to be seen running out of steam in a 3 setter and being bagelled by a top player like Murray.

Your not implying something fishy is going on I hope... I'm intrigued by your dislike of this player.

I am just raising questions, like we shoudl all do with our gouvernments or tennis players. I am pointing out how important is his physique in his game.

Physique is of course important in tennis. IMO many overestimate Nadals strength here because of his chunky appearance. Of the top 4 (or more?)he may be the least "fit". He does limited gym and general fitness training partly to protect week knees and a foot problem. He also pays less attention to diet than other players. Nadal may have been able to get away with this approach when he was younger. This year it has caused him problems and he has run out of steam and lost a lead a few times. It is something that he needs to improve.

So I don't really understand your point about raising questions.

This is a good point, Nadal is probably the most NATURALLY fit guy on tour but the others may have made themselves fitter through extreme gym regimes (after all Nadal set the bar for others to chase). In other words Nadal may have got complacent with his fitness and recognises he now needs to actually work at it. He has said in previous recent interviews he wanted to get stronger for 2012 (which I presume he also meant fitter too).

hawkeye wrote:

Physique is of course important in tennis. IMO many overestimate Nadals strength here because of his chunky appearance. Of the top 4 (or more?)he may be the least "fit". He does limited gym and general fitness training partly to protect week knees and a foot problem. He also pays less attention to diet than other players. Nadal may have been able to get away with this approach when he was younger. This year it has caused him problems and he has run out of steam and lost a lead a few times. It is something that he needs to improve.

So I don't really understand your point about raising questions.

Hardly can believe you're serious here.
Nadal has proved this year he's still the fittest of all. Fourth set RG final? Semi Wimbledon? ect ect. Even in the US open final you could sense that Nadal was basically the fitter one. Sure, they both ended up cripple in the fourth but Nadals game suffers much more in that condition than Djoko's. That's the underlying reason why he lost, not because Djoko was the fitter one.

Team Nadal will agree with you though, he needs to get fitter... The idea of Nadal getting fitter is absurd.

I do understand the questions Tenez is raising. It's curious that Nadal states that not playing a MS is a better preparation for the WF..after a couple of weeks off...

Of course Nadal is still the fittest (at least up to teh USO). Noone coudl do as much retrieving AND hit the ball as hard as him in the most stretch situations for 4 or 5 sets. Djoko is using a lot of Nadal's power to send the ball back and that is why he can outlast Nadal. If Nadal coudl take the ball earlier without having to bash the ball like he does from 3m behind the baseline he would still outlast anybody. The difference with Djoko and the other players is that Djoko, like Nadal, doesn;t need a sharp game to beat Nadal, he is just happy to keep rallying and wait for Nadal to tire.

I certainly don;t think Nadal is the naturally fittest out there. If that was the case, he could rely on that fitness all year round but we know it's cyclical. He needs to be prepared to perfection for the grand occasions (slams). If he was naturally fitter than his opponents he woudl not ask for a shorter season, on the contrary he woudl score max of points when everybody is nackered at the end of the season...not him...he is the tired one.

So depends very much which angle you (want to) look at it!

He doesn't need to get fitter he needs to shorten the rallies.

Tenez wrote:

Positively 4th Street wrote:
I would go further and say his form used to drop after Wimbledon until a few years ago. Some of this can surely be put down to surface changes though, it's like saying Murray has cyclical form as he wins nothing on clay and then always does well on hard courts, especially at this time of year. That's one player I propose who's similarly cyclical without even trying hard to find one.

Yes - I agree about his form droping after wimbledon in the past but in fact to be precise we should say "after Canada" as he won it twice there, which kind of throws away the surface argument.

Murray, good choice, can be cyclical too but I don't think it's linked to surface either. He has been worse right after the AO, in the early spring Dubai IW and Miami of late than he has been on clay where he gave Djoko his toughest challenge last spring.

Good point about Canada. That said, he won Tokyo last year and was a finalist this time so we should perhaps say after Tokyo, which doesn't leave a great deal. Also, indoor hard is quite different to outdoors in the sunshine.

As for Murray, his spring form has been a hangover from Australia for the last 2 years. He'd done okay prior to that, particularly in 2009.

SAHARA STALLION wrote:Nadal is wisely boycotting laughable tournaments like Paris to prepare for the season of kings, the clay court season.

He tried these tinpot tournaments last season and saw the hilarious lack of quality for himself. Hopefully he has now learnt from mistakes, and will boycott the Grand Shams as well.

The only worthwhile tennis starts in April and ends in May.

lydian wrote:This is a good point, Nadal is probably the most NATURALLY fit guy on tour but the others may have made themselves fitter through extreme gym regimes (after all Nadal set the bar for others to chase). In other words Nadal may have got complacent with his fitness and recognises he now needs to actually work at it. He has said in previous recent interviews he wanted to get stronger for 2012 (which I presume he also meant fitter too).

Good point. Nadal needs to lay off the junk food.

Nole and Muzza go gluten-free. Meanwhile Nadal stuffs his face with M&M'S Chocolate Candy .

Nadal is smart, there is no participation fee in masters [ so losing in 1st round doesnt earn him much revenue], where as there is participation fee in 500's and hence Nadal don't mind to participate in them even if the conditions don't suit him.

Johnny Mac confirmed this participation fee in Basel semifinals commentary.

So I won't blame Nadal, rather a smart move by him to skip paris masters and play some 500's before it. Well done.