Historic merger vote due this afternoon

The result of the vote on the proposed merger of the EGU and the EWGA will be revealed later this afternoon and reports are that the result is likely to be "close".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/15736960.stm

I find it very puzzling that this isn't a foregone conclusion. Surely it is sense for there to be one governing body for men and women when we play the same game and play by the same rules. I wonder if the resistance comes from women who still think they should only play during the week and leave the weekends to the men (while they do the housework, washing and ironing) or men who think that women shouldn't be seen on a golf course at all.

Have any of you had any influence on this vote and, if so, what do you think is the best way forward?

LP I read this yesterday and was puzzled by it, because I stupidly assumed that there was only one governing body. I noticed that someone was quoted as saying that the present system(s) have produced some top talent??? I also got the feeling that resistance to the alignment came from sections of both sides, and exactly for the reasons you state.

Ladies golf adhere to the same rules as mens golf and therefore my view is a need for one body not two. Yes there are a few things in ladies golf that differ slightly to mens, but we all play to the same rules. A lot of resistance from some sections of males, but this is usually through lack of knowledge/education and historic rehtoric.

Can anyone avail me of the implications of a merger.

Same game, same venues, same rules. Makes sense to have one governing body. Only reason I can see for seperate bodies is to deal with competitions as obviously men and women have their own once you go above club level.

The Equality Act 2010 (which hasn't been fully enacted yet) is going to have some bearing on how golf is played in most clubs. For example, if men and women pay the same amount in subs, then there'll have to be equal rights to tee times. So (for example) times will have to be made available to women on weekend days when men's competitions have traditionally been held, and men will have rights to play on Tuesday or Thursday which have normally been regarded as ladies' days.

So, bearing this in mind, then I think it would be good for the EGU and EWGA to merge, because they'll be able to advise clubs better on these sorts of issues if they are singing from the same hymn sheet.

The Equality Act could change things very significantly at golf clubs. It's possible that honorary membership categories will be ended, age related discounts ended, men only bars ended, equality of representation on club committees and equal chance at being club captain and so on.

What's strange about the Equality Act is that it doesn't apply to single sex clubs apparently. Amazing.

Having registered my email addy with AG they keep sending me details of "their" weekly mag and in one of Octobers issues there was an article on this.
http://americangolf.globalgolfpost.com/americangolf/20111031/#pg19

George I don't think this has anything to do with equality laws, its a cost saving initiative for both groups, but a seemingly sensible solution. Why should there be two seperate bodies governing one sport. Take football as a prime example mens, ladies, boys and girls are all under the one umbrella organisation the FA.

The EGU has been advising the government about the impact of legislation on golf clubs in England - not just the Equality Act either.

Since one of the main issues of all legislation is gender, then it'll help the new body - England Golf - to understand and advise better.

Cost savings - very good but that's not a benefit to rank and file club members really because the cost to them is pretty small.

I agree about the benefits of having one ruling body.

Like LP said, I'm surprised that the vote will be close apparently. I would have thought it's a no brainer.

Not so sure this is just about gender equality or saving money for that matter. Isn't it possible that the root of the problem lies more in the issue of power being devolved to the national body, in other words, away from the areas? At least, that's been the problem in Scotland.

George, the reason single sex clubs weren't included in EU legislation is because those idiots in Brussels decided to lump together all types of single-sex clubs.

George1507 wrote:The Equality Act 2010 (which hasn't been fully enacted yet) is going to have some bearing on how golf is played in most clubs. For example, if men and women pay the same amount in subs, then there'll have to be equal rights to tee times. So (for example) times will have to be made available to women on weekend days when men's competitions have traditionally been held, and men will have rights to play on Tuesday or Thursday which have normally been regarded as ladies' days.

What we did at our club, as the Ladies Section is of the older generation, we decided to introduce a short week membership to allow them to keep their subs down. We also allowed any Ladies if they wished to pay FULL membership. This enititled the short week members to play Tue/Wed/Thu. Full members were allowed to play all week. The Ladies (about 14 full members) were given two 30 mins tee times on a Saturday so they could play their own medal.

This seems to have worked out quite well, with no male chavaunistic talk of slow play etc if you had the tee-off just behind the Ladies.

That sounds like a good solution. golf clubs are noted for forward thinking, so it's good to hear that some are thinking ahead a bit.

I guess it's understandable that most clubs haven't done anything yet because some parts the act haven't been finalised yet, and won't be until 2012 at the earliest. The EGU has been banging on for ages about clubs getting their act together on this, but most clubs haven't even thought about it yet.

Gael, - idiots in Brussels - that's probably dead right.

I wonder whether the resistance on the women's side is a fear than their views would not get a fair hearing in a combined forum and that any resources might be directed more towards the men's game rather than the women's??

I wonder if concern might be an imbalance of power in the new combined organisation not fully representing one of the groups. After all even after a merger the same single sex competition divide will exist. Women’s golf having a specific body to represent them may have provided more opportunity to fight any injustice. Now if one group, I could be men, have an issue they want to fight it my get shelved in favour of something affecting the game as a whole. So politically they will have to act as one whereas at the moment gender specific causes can be fought.

If there are not enough key members for each group with representation at more senior level then some issues may just not be acknowledged or understood at a level where things can be done.

My suspicion is that the women who hold sway at county level (where the votes have been collated, I understand) are worried that the EGU might drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st century!

Bring it on

Looks like the vote to merge has passed

From the EWGA
"The merger proposal was approved by 86 per cent of the voting members of the EGU, meeting at its headquarters in Woodhall Spa; and by 100 per cent of the voting members of the EWGA, meeting at the National Motor Cycle Museum at Solihull. Both organisations had to approve the proposal by a majority of at least 75 per cent for it to be successful."

An article in my paper today suggested that looking at the way that womens' cricket improved after they merged, it is the best way forward.
(Acces to facilities, money etc resulted in an improvement of standards, especially in the England team)

Interesting that dear old Iain Carter was the one who seemed to get it wrong - again - and said the vote looked as though it would be "close". I'm not sure 86% of men and 100% of women constitutes "close" in my comprehension! Whatever, it's a great day for English golf all round.

LadyPutt wrote:Interesting that dear old Iain Carter was the one who seemed to get it wrong - again - and said the vote looked as though it would be "close". I'm not sure 86% of men and 100% of women constitutes "close" in my comprehension! Whatever, it's a great day for English golf all round.

I think Ian Carter must have heard the same rumours I'd heard a few months back in that there was a north/south divide over this issue.

Be interesting to see how Scotland resolves this. The women overwhelmingly voted for it but although male club members were also in favour, their Areas were not. I think their argument is that yer average club member is simply not interested in what happens at national level and therefore accountability will be pretty much non-existent. I have to admit, they do have a point.

Any time you need a 75% majority in favour of something, the voting is going to be close.

So Ian Carter was correct I think. There was no doubt that there was a majority in favour, just whether it's was a big enough majority.

So the future looks good for English golf. Rosy even.

Great news this merger is going ahead, and in all honesty about time. There really has never in my mind been any sense in having seperate governing bodies promoting the game.

One body, one universal set of rules and a good result today.

Now to add to this, and I mean this in no controversial or sexist way, just merely commenting on how things are at my club.

At our place we have ever since i've been there at least anyway, had total equality. Ladies are able to play whenever they like no restrictions unless the tee times are reserved for competition (this works vice versa if reserved for ladies events men have to wait and rightly so) but something that continues to happen is, the ladies do not take advantage of their membership in the way it's set out. They still demand they have ladies day on a Thursday with the course closed until 2pm for ladies only to play, yet on averageyou get no more than 12 ladies playing on a thursday.

Ladies competitions are generally arranged on Thursdays as well. Despite the majority of the membersip being working ladies so couldn't play on this day, only recently have the majority of ladies accepted by way of suggestion from the male members that they hold their comps on weekends to emcompass the whole membership and have midweek medals if they feel need for it. Seems at our place despite there being total equality the most backward thinking members are the ladies, which baffles me. I'd like to see more of them out on weekends playing, that way my daughter would get more time playing with the ladies section.

The same thing happens at a club local to me, which has seen many members defect to other clubs. Apparently Tuesday's were ladies only until 2pm and an average of 3 ladies attended. The course closed to men completley, in effect making it a 6.5 day membership at best and 6 days in the winter.

My own club have got it about right, as over half the ladies work, so they have a few slots booked on Saturday's and the rest have slots booked on Tuesdays. So in effect the course is closed to men for a maximum of 2-hours in the week. 1-hour Tuesday and 1-hour Saturday. There are also plenty of mixed events, mixed comp's etc and although you'll never keep a few hundred members happy all the time, it seems to work.

Doc, Do ladies pay the same subscription as men? If they do, then that situation should change as of next year because men will be entitled to play on Tuesdays, and women will be entitled to play on Saturdays.

At the club I used to belong to, where unfortunately the majority of the women were either retired or "kept" (ie with wealthy husbands so didn't need to work) they had reserved tee times on Wednesday mornings for competitions but also had reserved times on Monday and Friday mornings for what they called "club time" so they could play little friendly rounds. We working ladies had to slot in with the men on Sundays to play our competitions (we all paid the same fees but, of course, the midweek ladies paid the cheaper 5-day membership to play their 3 times and we had to pay 7-day fees to play once!) and we had to take holidays or play after work for knockout and club matches which were always midweek because they refused to pay the additional green fee to play knockout matches at weekends, always pleading poverty.

Is it any wonder I left and am currently without a club at all?

Mav - this situation is typical of women's golf in Kent, I'm afraid. I suggest you move to a more enlightened county before Mavette gets too involved.

Nail on head Ladyputt. Is it any wonder the vast majority of girls introduced to the game don't stay in golf? The combination of selfish old women togehter with the expedient complicty of male dominated club committees will continue to contrive to leave women's golf in much the state as it was when I first took up the game more than 55 years ago.

I have little knowledge of the junior golf set up these days but some comments by mav, gael and LP sounded a little worrying in regards to girls Junior golf. Is there any reason why boys and girls play separately at lower age groups and would there be any harm of holding mixed events? If mavette cant play on a weekday why cant she play on a weekend in the mens comps if good enough. If she is regularly breaking 90 she is already better than 90% of adult male golfers.

Will a combined golf union open up such possibilities if they do not already exist?

McLaren wrote:I have little knowledge of the junior golf set up these days but some comments by mav, gael and LP sounded a little worrying in regards to girls Junior golf. Is there any reason why boys and girls play separately at lower age groups and would there be any harm of holding mixed events? If mavette cant play on a weekday why cant she play on a weekend in the mens comps if good enough. If she is regularly breaking 90 she is already better than 90% of adult male golfers.

Will a combined golf union open up such possibilities if they do not already exist?

Mac - I sincerely hope so for the sake of the future of women's golf not only in England, but also the UK and the rest of Europe!

My thinking was this, at someone like mavettes stage who is showing promise is then main goal not development. This must come from getting used to playing with a card in hand on a regular basis of course along with practice and advancement of technique.

So the way I see it the club should let her play in any weekend event in order to gain this experience of the normal womens event is mid week when she is in school or parents cant get her to the course. Even if she is in a mens event of a different tee does it really matter? After all it is not like the club medal is so important these things cant be accommodated.

This may well be a dumb idea but it is the sort of idea golf clubs seem opposed to.

Mac

She is able to play in weekend Junior competitions in which she is the only girl so she gets to compete against the boys who hit it further which is good experience for her, she is also able to play in the ladies major comps which she did well in this year, runner up in club championship. She also plays midweek ladies comps in the holidays.

We've decided for Christmas in addition to membership at my place were going to get membership for her to the premier club in our area that produces young talent a club that has no less than 8 county boys players and 9 county girls players. THey put all emphasis on developing youngsters and of the recent crop there are 6 on scholarships in the states, 1 on the ET, 3 tryng to qualify for ET and 4 LET players.

As for her scores she has been breaking 80 so her future is bright if she wants it to be.

But I agree the club were getting her membership to is exception to the rule and more needs be done for Ladies and Junior golf

gaelgowfer wrote:Nail on head Ladyputt. Is it any wonder the vast majority of girls introduced to the game don't stay in golf? The combination of selfish old women togehter with the expedient complicty of male dominated club committees will continue to contrive to leave women's golf in much the state as it was when I first took up the game more than 55 years ago.

It shouldn't continue to be like this Gael.

The Equality Act should sweep away a lot of this nonsense.

Of course it may require some shoving from disaffected people in the club to make sure everyone gets to play when they want. But male dominated club committees, ladies only days, men only days and a lot of the precedent based behaviour will have to end.

Both SGU and EGU - sorry England Golf - have published quite a lot of guidelines for club committees already. If your subs are the same, you will be entitled to the same as the men in your club. Lots of clubs are sticking their heads in the sand and hoping the Equality Act will go away. Make sure yours isn't one of them.

George, I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. My club has been equal status for over 30 years but, at a fundamental level, nothing has changed. The club continues to ostensibly operate associate m'ship competition practices. There is one drawn weekend competition (not on a Saturday of course ) but that doesn't take place until the middle of September. I've often wondered why this particular event wasn't shifted to a midweek fixture once the person who donated it died. I can only think that perhaps it has survived its weekend slot as a result of it being a condition of the event.

I went down the club constitutional route and it got me absolutely nowhere. With this new legislation, just how does a club member go about accessing it in order to bring a club into line with equality legislation?

Incidentally, I follow the goings-on of amateur golf on the Scottish Golf View website and I have to say I've been quite impressed by the efforts made by (what was) ELGA in trying to keep clubs apprised of impending equal legislation. They've been a lot more proactive than the scots.

Gael hits it on the head there. The Equality laws and movements are in effect pointless when as said before may ladies sections are stuck in the dark ages through the fact its members are the ones who stick to playing midweek and wanting their own day rather than taking advantage of being equal and playing whenever they want. Until those attitudes change nothing will move forward at club level IMO.

Gael,

Reads this document.

http://www.englishgolfunion.org/shared/get-file.ashx?id=7494&itemtype=document

It's an EGU document, but the Equality Act applies in Scotland just as it does in England. Bear in mind that although it's called the Equality Act 2010, a lot of it is not enacted yet. Both the EGU and SGU are advising the government on the issues involved in implementing it fully. Clauses about age, gender and loyalty discounts are supposedly to be enacted in 2012.

As I said, it might take some shoving to get your way, but I'm optimistic that a lot of the stupidity will be swept away.

With a lot of clubs abandoning joining fees, it's pretty likely that clubs that hack off their women members by not implementing changes - or planning for changes - will become pretty unpopular places with tumbleweed blowing down the first fairway.

Have a look at (g) for the likely outcome of the fair access to first tee issue.

George

I think your missing the point, Gael, LP and I have made regarding the ladies sections. Its not a case of them being treated equally by the other members as many clubs like mine already have unrestricted access for Ladies to play when they want. The issue is the Lady sections in question wanting to play at those times and not being stuck in their ways.

For example as mentioned earlier ladies at my club can play when they like but yet still choose to not want to play at weekends prefering to vote for and keep ladies day midweek despite having lots that work all week most lady members unfortunately are not forward thinking like gael or LP and are still stuck in the rut of thinking weekend golf is for men whilst they play mid week, until those attitudes change and those members become progressive change will either not happen or still be 10years or so away

No, I understand that point. This Act could provide the women who aren't happy with that state of affairs with a framework to change things. There are lots of women who feel the same as Gael and LP and I think - and hope - they'll take the chance to change things.

And another point is that the men now have no precedent to fall back on. They have to change the ways things have been done or risk the law.

Thanks for putting up the link George. I've run off a copy and will have a closer look later on. However, I did have a quick skim through and my question as to how to go about challenging a club on its discriminatory practices was adressed thus ...

""5. What are the penalties/remedies contained within the Act?

Where a member, prospective member or guest of the club believes they have experienced discrimination, they may challenge the club’s action, processes and policies in court. Cases heard in the County Court may result in damages being awarded against the club in the favour of the complainant. This means that the complainant can receive monetary compensation for not only the harm they suffered as a result of the club’s treatment, but also for “injured feelings”. The club may also be compelled by the court to alter their practices to prevent future cases of discrimination."

Pretty scary option really when considering any possible financial implications of taking such an action.

There may well be lots of women who feel as LP and me. Unfortunately, we're thinly spread across the board.

The only part of the legislation which my club adheres to is the bit where we all pay the same amount. The office of Lady Captain and Ladies' Ctte have no constitutional standing because there is no provision for them to exist in the club rules. Why would there be? They were after all created out of an associate m'ship category. Nevertheless, this illegal ctte is allowed (by an all male club ctte) to continue to decide on which days our club comps are played. There is quite simply no will on the part of an ageing m'ship to voluntarily change the habits of a century.

I really don't see how this legislation can work in practice.

Gael, every club is different in my experience. There are always slight differences between clubs and always tradition and precedent plays an important part in the way that the club is run. It's pretty clear though - whatever the final wording of the Act - that it's intended that women are fairly represented on committees, have an equal chance of being elected to representative positions, and enjoy the same conditions (including tee times) as men.

I quite appreciate that it's a very big step to bring the law into your golf club, but I'm sure that there will be people out there who don't have the sentiment that perhaps you and your pals do, and for them it's a small step. I think this will change the world of golf in the UK more than anything ever has. Some will say it won't change for the better, and there may be some truth in that, but if it means that women, ethnic minorities and juniors get fairer treatment then I think that's a positive step.

Our ladies have always had equal rights at the club, but as Ladies morning is on a Monday, I can rarely attend. We always have alternative days at weekends for the comps (even spread of Saturdays and Sundays), but the majority play these on a Monday (5 day membership etc). The team matches are primarily played during the week. The Committee meets on a Monday afternoon - so precludes membership from those who have to work fulltime. Committee members are mainly either retired, or do not have to work at all (only one committee member under 50, and most over 60).

I have noticed that there seems to be a big gap in membership in the 20's and 30's age range,and with only a few in their 40's. I wonder how Ladies sections will fare in the future, as these days a lot of women have to continue to work full-time due to the large mortgages needed to buy a family home.

My wife will be lady captain next year at our club. She works part time, so it's not too bad for her.

The ladies have the course to themselves on a Monday morning as that's when the majority of them play - the ladies that work play their comp on a Saturday. With a mix of mid-week & weekend matches. The committee meetings are all held in the evening so that the ladies that work can participate on committees.

Mainly it works except this year there are a few men who play mid week whoa are causing problems for the ladies. It will backfire for the men eventually as the ladies pay the same fees as the men and have the same status. Soon there will be a re-organisation of when tees are shut off and it could affect the men more than the ladies, which I would find amusing - I have no time for these kind of men.

We should all be able to play in harmony - Men Ladies, Seniors, Juniors

The simple truth is that so long as mixed-sex golf clubs continue to discriminate in respect of fixture lists then development of the women's game will never move beyond its current position. And, given the majority of playing female members are in their 50's, 60's and 70's they will never agree to voluntarily move their fixture lists to a weekend. It is a self-perpetuating cycle.

I have to say, I am heartily sick and tired of hearing about the needs of working women and most people assuming this whole issue of competition access centres on them. Address the issue of how junior golf is run at club level then any issues with working women's access to the game will cease to exist. The simple fact is that in so far as girls and boys are concerned, the game is still not being promoted on a level playing field. For instance, there is absolutely no incentive for girls at my club to stay in golf - which they don't - because the ladies' fixture list does not accommodate them when they have their time off school at weekends.

Yes, every club has its little nauances on how they organise their golf and some will be better at accommodating female members than others but let's not get away from the fundamental fact that my first two paras pretty much sum up how club golf, GB&I style, is still being run going into 2012.

Frankly, it's nothing less than a goddamn tragedy because as a non contact sport, golf is an ideal game for girls to take part in and if they learn early enough and stick with it through the tough early days of learning the basics, they will come to enjoy an activity which they will be able to play to a decent standard and one which can be played long after they've have had to give up more physically demanding activities.

Gael, do junior boys and girls play medals together. I only ask because when I was a junior there weren't any girls in my club.

At my old club I was approached by the Ladies to hold an Open meeting.
They hopefully asked for a Saturday and seemed to be amazed when I agreed.
This was around mid 1980's. The event was well supported and our ladies were constantly being asked 'how did you get the men to agree a weekend slot?' One or two old warhorses from other local clubs thought it was totally out of order to have a Ladies Open at a weekend.

Around this time I also put girls in the county club juniors scratch league team. This caused uproar. I had studied the rules carefully and nowhere did it say 'Boys'. They played off the womans tees with an adjustment for any difference in SSS. The following year we had three girls in a team of six and romped the league.

Sr At junior level we only had Juniors not boys and girls. As above an adjustment in SSS is all that is required.

Good to see that both events are still going strong.

super_realist wrote:Gael, do junior boys and girls play medals together. I only ask because when I was a junior there weren't any girls in my club.

At our place they do, Mavette plays in all our junior comps and they are all against the boys, she's the only girl. The ladies section have been fairly accomodating in as much they let her play major comps(was runner up in club champ this year) and let her go to ladies league games but only as a reserve despite the fact there is only one lady with a lower handicap than hers at our club, yet they feel being reserve is as much as she deserves due to her age they think the others deserve more playing time as she has years ahead of her(been the source of arguments from me!)

We are getting her a 2nd membership to another club who place real emphasis on youth development as mentioned by myself earlier in this thread. So hopefully she'll do well and make the ladies team there and comeback to our place and beat the ladies here. Were going to register the new club as her home club as they arrange for county coaches to work with the kids and have a really good setup for competition and development she will also have a host of other young girls (many county players) to compete against instead of being the only girl in a male dominated junior section and my club as her away one so she can still play comps etc.

Sadly SR the setup at my place is all to common where girl junuors are concerned and there isn't enough development for the lads either

Gael
With my 'old mans hat' on I think the simple truth with womens golf not welcoming young players is that most of the 50 to 70 year olds are scared that someone else will win the trophies.

I think where possible girls will be partnered together. When I was a junior, I was the only girl so the boys had no choice but to play with me in the junior medals. However, they didn't mind and neither did I. At the end of the day we each play our own ball.

It's not that my club doesn't promote junior golf. It probably doesn't do it any worse than most other clubs. However, unless there is a serious commitment to ensure both girls and boys have the same opportunities going into adulthood then whatever you've done to get them started in the game in the first place will inevitably result in a pointless exercise.

Really what difference does it make if a ladies and mens medal happens at the same time. So there would be a few extra tee times, big deal.

Doon the Water wrote:Gael
With my 'old mans hat' on I think the simple truth with womens golf not welcoming young players is that most of the 50 to 70 year olds are scared that someone else will win the trophies.

Well, there is that too Doon! Still, the men's game has the same problem but seem to be able to find compromise solutions which allow fast developing juniors to take part in the big club events. For instance, applying a h'cap limit to them.

I have seen that happen at a few clubs Gael.
Marlborough had a fine group of juniors coming through and the members voted for a single figure limit for mens competitions.
Killed it stone dead.
What these DoDo's don't realise is that todays 14 year old is a full member in 4 years time.

Diggers wrote:Really what difference does it make if a ladies and mens medal happens at the same time. So there would be a few extra tee times, big deal.

At my club there are a couple of slots that are kept for the ladies in the middle of the Medal on a Saturday - it's not an issue.

PS. there is a perception that Ladies are slow... this is nonsense.

There are slow players - irrespective of handicap, gender or age

I think that the move Mavette is making is very good for her development.
Can I assume that her existing club is a members club and the new one is a propriety one?

Why does the ownership of the club have anything to do with junior development?

It's more case of having a few members who are prepared to put some effort into recruiting, organising and educating juniors, and a pro who is prepared to teach them.

14 year olds might be full members in 4 years time, but not necessarily at the same club. When they go off to university, some join other clubs, and leave the club that they learned at. Since many clubs are abandoning joining fees, there's no reason stay as a member. They can always come back if they want to.

Golf club committees don't think very far ahead, and the death of the joining fee is having a lot of repercussions that nobody foresaw. Another is that very few people now become country members of their club when they move around the country. They know they can just rejoin any time they want in the future without a joining fee.