Scottish rugby needs to capitalise on Football's demise

by **RDW** Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:09 am

Title says it all really!

I can't help but think that football is dying a death here in Scotland. Rangers and Celtic are barely competitive in Europe anymore, Hearts can't pay their players and Rangers have massive debts to sort out. Yes a new TV sponsorship deal has prolonged the demise but clubs and the league in general have been struggling of late to get decent sponsorship deals.

Add to this the pretty awful standard of football, the neds in the crowds and the sectarian chanting (and not just from Rangers and Celtic) and I can't help but think that Scottish rugby really needs to try and capitalise on the problems with Scottish football just now.

I'm particularly looking at families here - dads (without being sexist) bringing their kids and their kids pals to the football, probably paying a decent sum of money to watch awful football on sub-standard pitches while their kids are subjected to swearing and chants and quite often some real anger and hatred in the stands.

If Scottish rugby can try and offer an attractive alternative so that instead of going to Tynecastle or Easter road they go to Murrayfield, and instead of Rangers, Celtic and the numerous other clubs in and around Glasgow go to see the Warriors.

The SRU put on some great ticket deals when it comes to kids (10 kids free per adult at one point!) and I can really see some non-diehard football fans being tempted if the marketing is done well.

Of course I'm not talking about every football fan here - indeed most football fans have an inherent dislike for rugby - but the ones that go for a family day out and have had enough of the prices, poor standard and general atmosphere at a football game.

I certainly know of at least 10 dads (and a couple of mums!) who have started coming to Edinburgh games with their kids because they have had enough of Scottish football. Or at least started coming more regularly to the rugby than they used to.

Thoughts?

by **RDW** Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:13 am

Having just re-read that it does sound like I am quite negative towards football. I do like football, not so much Scottish stuff (although Hibs fan by family line only!), but I just think that Rugby can offer a lot in particular to families who want a better live sporting experience for their kids!

Just to cover myself from any football 606ers shouting at me.... Hug

by JDandfries Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:06 am

I don't think you can throw the muck just at Scottish football.

It is football in general that people are sick of, people are sick of the players and the amount they earn, which of course then determins ticket pricing.

Its now £30 on average to watch my team, in the Championship (I can watch an international Rugby match for that), which has lead to a less than half full stadium, with zero atomesphere, where I watch average footballers who don't give a flying duck, show no affiliation to fans simply becuase they are all millionaires by 22 (of course they are not all like that)

At least with rugby, you get a commited game and a game where players are forced to compete - this doesnt happen in football and I can honestly say I would much rather watch a game of Rugby than football, BY A MILE.

by **RDW** Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:11 am

JDandfries wrote:I don't think you can throw the muck just at Scottish football.

I

True it is a problem inherent in football all over but the point of my article was to focus on Scotland, as it is well known that Edinburgh and Glasgow find it hard to attract crowds. Plus as my article was saying, top level Scottish football is having real problems just now, both on and off the pitch, as well as in the stands.

Also - I'd rather watch rugby too but would quite like the article to not turn into another "Which is better - rugby vs football" debate, merely focus on how the SRU can try and take advantage of the current situation!

by UlstermaninGlasgow Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:22 am

I'm not sure how they can try to do much more... Seems as though they are trying quite a lot already... I know personally that Glasgow have invested a lot of time in involving all the underage teams in and around Glasgow and giving them free tickets/chances to play at half time. The games are generally always full of families and the attendances have been better than last year so far (Avg. attendance is up above 3,00 so far this year, was about 2,500 last year) And the kids are growing to love the little things they have been doing like Clyde the mascot and the Richie Gray masks.

I think in Glagow the main problem is people think of Firhill as Partick Thistle and all they see is the Partick Thistle signs and this little Warriors thing in the corner. That said the move to Scotstoun should help things with the Warriors able to make more of a mark on it themselves.

The fact is in Scotland the main rugby heartlands don't really have the populations to support pro teams and therefore the Pro teams ended up in the two major cities, where to be honest there was no real links with the franchises. Things are looking better but there's a lot of work to do. There will always be those that never support either team but I reckon that with the problems that Rangers are facing and the fact that Celtic can't buy a win most of the time may lead to a few more fans looking at what else Glasgow has to offer sportswise.

And the win against Bath helped a great deal! I had people coming up and telling me how amazing it is that Glasgow won! It even made the front page of the Scottish Papers!!! Imagine! The sports headline wasn't about football but the Scottish CLUB rugby teams!!!!

by Gaelic-Warrior Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:56 am

Interesting article there RDW. I did something similar back on the old 606. I'd agree that although we should be taking advantage of football's problems we shouldn't be focusing mostly on trying to compete with them. I live in a mostly football supporting neighborhood (mostly OF) and despite the problems in the Scottish game it still seems to be thriving here. Its soccer that kids are playing in schools and sparegrounds and what people are talking about.

With how deeply entrenched football is in Scotland I don't think we can realistically compete overall. It's fair to say though that both Scottish football & Rugby results could do with an improvement, I think both codes could benefit from more co-operation with each other, there's enough room for two big sports in this country. I think the problem lies with the fact that from my experience a lot of Scots still associate rugby with the privileged middle-class or may be reluctant to get their kids playing due to physicality levels.

We need to get more people outside the borders to play the game in the big cities for the pro teams to thrive and improve crowds, get the Warriors and Edinburgh into schools, get proper TV Coverage of rugby and a more prominant highlights package, marketing campaigns to advertise Scottish rugby at all levels and, importantly, the borders are our main heartland for the game, get the reivers back up and running at some point. Also I think part of Scottish football's problem is money, its becoming untenable to have the OF compete realistically with the big guns of europe imo. They should focus on using the SPL as a breeding ground for creating top players for the national side rather than trying to have two clubs competing to be as big as possible. Summer football would be beneficial to both codes as it could improve the SPL/SFL spectacle and lighten the schedule for fans of both, go see rugby during winter and football during summer months.

by **George Carlin** Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:14 pm

It is surely fair to say that it has been adapting to professionalism (in the case of rugby) and well marketed, mature market professionalism (in the case of football) that has been our problem.

Scottish football will eventually eat itself and Rangers and Celtic have now hit the wall. A league that is so limited and with so little money cannot hope to generate enough revenue to retain top talent and a smaller population means that the one way clubs have of making and retaining money (gate receipts and merchandising) is snowballing downwards.

The advantage that rugby has is that we are playing in a competitive league with some relatively glamorous ties and so to an extent things are what the clubs make them. I think that this SRU is bright enough to realise that private enterprise and sponsorship is key and little by little the clubs can claw back the share of the sports viewing public from the football clubs.

Playing in summer is only an option if the rest of the professional teams organise their seasons that way and it's difficult to see that happening.

Makes me cry though. When I was a boy, my Rangers teams have had Terry Butcher, Mark Walters, Mark Hately, Brian Laudrup, a pre-fat Ally McCoist, Iain Durrant and Rino Gattuso in them. The honest truth is that relatively speaking, no Scottish club gets that quality of player any more. Scottish rugby needs to capitalise on Football's demise 4184233493

Scottish rugby needs to capitalise on Football's demise 4184233493

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:23 pm

JD is right to say that it is not a problem that is unique to Scotland, but equally I stand shoulder2shoulder with RDW in thinking that now is a time for rugby to be taking advantage of football's falling appeal (I think 'demise' is too strong just yet), particularly in Scotland. And the good news is that others seem to be thinking along the same lines: Warriors' schools initiative. I like the ticketing ideas too, but I think the key is to get kids playing the game - that way they are going to their parents to ask to be taken to Scotstoun or Murrayfield rather than Ibrox, Parkhead, Tynecastle, Easter Road, etc. Some success at the national or pro-district level wouldn't go amiss either

by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:48 pm

Its a good point and I would say to a very small extent, Rugby in Scotland is picking up Football Fans, who previously only had a small interest in Rugby and it is something that the Pro Teams can work on. Results are the key thing, winning games will attract fans more than any marketing drive. SRU are making the right noises that they have now taken this onboard, time will tell.

Talking of the "demise" of Scottish Football, if you look at the problems that Football in Scotland has, generally uncompetitve in Europe, crowds not matching the required levels, large debts, no serious TV deal (even with the new deal Wigan Athletic will earn more from TV in 24 months than the etire SPL will in FIVE years), unable to attract top quality forgien players, losing most of their own best players.

Scottish Rugby has the very same problems.

by Gaelic-Warrior Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:49 pm

I don't think that football as a whole has a falling appeal in Scotland, its Scottish football that has a falling appeal. I definitely agree that the SRU should be taking advantage of this but from what I see in my area is that people are either sticking with the SPL or turning to the EPL.

D_M makes the point that we are only picking up disgruntled football fans "to a very small extent" this imo is part of the problem. He is right to point out (as I have) that both codes suffer from similar problems here. Football, regardless of its current state, is far too deeply entrenched in Scottish society to the extent that I think it will always be top dog in popularity.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs hit the nail on the head here, get the kids playing. Get them while they're young and impressionable. I think an aggressive media marketing scheme wouldn't be bad either, there was a much bigger buzz here for the 2010 FIFA WC than this years rugby one. Although as D_M said results still count and things like the latest Warriors game against Leinster wont help. I did raise the point of media coverage on the old forum, Wales and Ireland all have decent Pro 12 coverage while we have BBC ALBA and red button replays in Gaelic- good results should be advertised more with better TV coverage of games.

Right now soccer has a lot of disadvantages that we can jump on but I personally feel that a bit of interaction with football would benefit both codes- George Carlin pointed out the problems with Scottish club football and the SPL are going about it the wrong way imo. I've heard a lot of football fans wanting a switch to summer which would be good for supporters of both as they would no longer need to give priority to one or the other. Football fans would probably be happier with a cleaner spectacle in the summer and with winter all to itself that gives rugby the media spotlight and the opportunity to advertise itself without competition.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:58 pm

Football will be dominant in Scotland for a long time. Sure it's vulgar, decidant and corrupt but it has people talking.

One of the best games of Rugby I have ever seen took place on Friday night and I am the only person in a worforce of 50ish who even knows it happened.

Football is so entrenched in the Scottish psyche that even is the SPL was to go down the toilet financialy people will just support teams in the Barlcays Premier in England.

by BridgendBoyo Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:46 pm

Most Glaswegians i've met, didnt even know their city had a rugby team which is a shame.

I was in Edinburgh last december, first trip to the capital, and i noticed that in all the tourist shops, there seemed to be alot of replica scottish rugby tops, infact i didnt see one football top on display

by **RDW** Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:34 am

BridgendBoyo wrote:Most Glaswegians i've met, didnt even know their city had a rugby team which is a shame.

I was in Edinburgh last december, first trip to the capital, and i noticed that in all the tourist shops, there seemed to be alot of replica scottish rugby tops, infact i didnt see one football top on display

I wouldn't really use that as a judgement on the popularity of rugby in Edinburgh - those tops aren't bought because they are rugby tops, they are bought because they say Scotland on them and tourists like that kind of thing for some bizarre reason. They then wear them with pride for the rest of their stay thinking they look like a local!

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:59 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
BridgendBoyo wrote:Most Glaswegians i've met, didnt even know their city had a rugby team which is a shame.

I was in Edinburgh last december, first trip to the capital, and i noticed that in all the tourist shops, there seemed to be alot of replica scottish rugby tops, infact i didnt see one football top on display

I wouldn't really use that as a judgement on the popularity of rugby in Edinburgh - those tops aren't bought because they are rugby tops, they are bought because they say Scotland on them and tourists like that kind of thing for some bizarre reason. They then wear them with pride for the rest of their stay thinking they look like a local!

Equally timing has a lot to do with it. December/January is quite a rugby focused time in the lead up to the 6N. In truth most people north of the border are unaware of rugby outside the 6N.

by **RDW** Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:17 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:Its a good point and I would say to a very small extent, Rugby in Scotland is picking up Football Fans, who previously only had a small interest in Rugby and it is something that the Pro Teams can work on. Results are the key thing, winning games will attract fans more than any marketing drive. SRU are making the right noises that they have now taken this onboard, time will tell.

Talking of the "demise" of Scottish Football, if you look at the problems that Football in Scotland has, generally uncompetitve in Europe, crowds not matching the required levels, large debts, no serious TV deal (even with the new deal Wigan Athletic will earn more from TV in 24 months than the etire SPL will in FIVE years), unable to attract top quality forgien players, losing most of their own best players.

Scottish Rugby has the very same problems.

It is a fair point D-M but my thinking behind it is that, yes Scottish rugby has all those problems but we have always had them and have prepared accordingly to run the business in that way. Scottish football, and football in general has been in a massive boom for years now and I can really see some clubs struggling now that they are suddenly faced with all these problems that they haven't had to deal with for a long time. Look at Rangers and Hearts - 5 years ago they were in pretty good health and now they are completely struggling.

It's a strange concept but I think Rugby can cope with their current debt levels and crowds etc - football won't be able to!

Basically the SRU are living within their means and the football clubs have not been.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:04 am

No chance the tweed blazeratti will let football riff raff into Murrayfield. Some things are more important than money.....

Actually, as a fan of both football and rugby I'd ultimately like to see more people like me.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:19 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:No chance the tweed blazeratti will let football riff raff into Murrayfield. Some things are more important than money.....

Actually, as a fan of both football and rugby I'd ultimately like to see more people like me.

god help us!!! Wink

by screamingaddabs Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:23 am

BridgendBoyo wrote:Most Glaswegians i've met, didnt even know their city had a rugby team which is a shame.

Agreed.

I'll keep saying it, better publicity is needed. Hopefully the new marketing guy can work out a better scheme than doing cack all, which appeared to be the old one...

by BridgendBoyo Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:45 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
BridgendBoyo wrote:Most Glaswegians i've met, didnt even know their city had a rugby team which is a shame.

I was in Edinburgh last december, first trip to the capital, and i noticed that in all the tourist shops, there seemed to be alot of replica scottish rugby tops, infact i didnt see one football top on display

I wouldn't really use that as a judgement on the popularity of rugby in Edinburgh - those tops aren't bought because they are rugby tops, they are bought because they say Scotland on them and tourists like that kind of thing for some bizarre reason. They then wear them with pride for the rest of their stay thinking they look like a local!

Equally timing has a lot to do with it. December/January is quite a rugby focused time in the lead up to the 6N. In truth most people north of the border are unaware of rugby outside the 6N.

I thought it might. just thought it was weird they were selling rugby tops instead of football ones, since football is more popular

by funnyExiledScot Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:03 pm

I think in Glasgow football will clearly always dominate. 100,000 fans will watch Rangers and Celtic collectively each and every weekend, and season tickets are invariably oversubscribed at Ibrox and Celtic Park.

In Glasgow the aim needs to be to appeal to people who just generally like sport. Glasgow Warriors play quite a bit on Friday and Sunday, so if you were a sports nut (like myself) it would be quite possible to watch both a football team and a rugby team. If the rugby game on the Friday was made into a bit more of an event, say with a more social/family side to it which you might not get at Ibrox, then I think it could be a success.

In Edinburgh the football sides are less successful and less widely supported, and it has always been the home of Scottish rugby. Fans in Edinburgh tend to either like football and hate rugby, or more commonly, like rugby and hate football. From a rugby perspective I think the task is slightly easier in Edinburgh, as you'll find a more natural supporter base.

by Feckless Rogue Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:04 am

I knew a fella from Glasgow who wasn't just not interested in rugby. He was actually hostile to it. Called it an "upper class game". This attitude exists in Ireland too. But it's been eroded a lot in the last ten years.

Rugby can never replace soccer in Scotland. But rugby could never replace GAA in Ireland. But rugby found its own niche in Ireland and became popular enough to be successful, without becoming the dominant sport. People who had never watched rugby before warmed to O'Driscoll and co.

Irish rugby fans are now made up of not just people who play rugby. But also fans of other sports like soccer, hurling and gaelic football, who've been attracted by the success of the provinces and have realized they really like the game (like me).

So I think Edinburgh and Glasgow can do lots of things and offer deals to attract fans to rugby. But without success on the field they're always gonna be up against it. The SRU currently seem to just want to keep the two regions on life support and let them bleed talent. I know they're short on funds but it's not a very good strategy.

They have to keep the best Scottish players in Scotland somehow. Would Richie Gray have signed for Sale if it meant he couldn't play for Scotland anymore? If the regions can never win anything, then how are they gonna attract many new fans?

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:47 am

Feckless Rogue wrote:They have to keep the best Scottish players in Scotland somehow. Would Richie Gray have signed for Sale if it meant he couldn't play for Scotland anymore? If the regions can never win anything, then how are they gonna attract many new fans?

Maybe, maybe not.

However I know for certain that Scotland don't have enough slots in the pro teams to keep talent coming through to have a residencey based selection policy for the National team.

Our Exiles are arguably our best players but their absence in Glasgow and Edinburgh has paved the way for the likes of Jackson, Weir, Gray, Hogg, Grant, Jones, Gilchrist, Scott etc.

by funnyExiledScot Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:40 am

We did try "Fortress Scotland" before. Never an idea that's going to work and I hate it.

Whilst I hate young and unproven players leaving Scotland before they've had the chance to prove themselves and give something to Scottish club rugby, I've no issue with players like Kelly Brown seeking the experience to play elsewhere and pick up a big pay cheque. In some cases playing abroad has made our players better (Jason White is the obvious example), and that benefits Scotland.

by **RDW** Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:01 am

Thanks FES - I'd almost managed to forget about the Matt Williams era!! furious

by Feckless Rogue Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:57 am

Okay. But I thought the whole point of this thread was to talk about how to improve Scottish rugby. You actually think letting your best players leave Scotland and keeping your regions rooted in the also-rans category is a good thing? I don't understand.

Scottish rugby needs some ambition. The big mental change started in Irish rugby when Keith Wood arrived at Munster and said "we can win the heineken cup". People laughed then.

by **RDW** Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:03 am

Yes we need to keep big names in Scotland but to only let people play for Scotland on that basis would be madness - 2 players per position playing week in week out would be disastrous for Scottish rugby. Not to mention any younger players not getting their chance.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:13 am

Feckless, it works in Ireland, but as RDW says with only the two pro-districts in Scotland, we just haven't got enough slots for players to develop and allow Scotland to attempt to retain our Tier 1 status - maybe one day, with the rebirth of a Borders and a North&Midlands team, but not yet, we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot

by Feckless Rogue Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:24 am

That's why they should bring back Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds. If they could afford to. Why don't Arab oil billionaires like rugby? Scotland need to invest in rugby and be ambitious to get better. I suppose the problem is they don't have the funds in the first place to invest. Surely there's Universities in Edinburgh and Glasgow. Maybe they should advertise more to them. Give away free tickets. Give good deals. Could boost revenues. Students would buy beer even if you let them in on the cheap.

But at the end of the day, no amount of marketing boosts attendance and revenues as much as success on the field does. Players as good as Gray are worth more than you think. Their actions on the field can inspire devotion from fans and win recognition from not rugby people. That's why I'm surprised at the attitude to the likes of Gray and Brown playing outside Scotland. It seems to be just accepted.

Imagine O'Connell, O'Gara and O'Driscoll went to France 10 years ago. The IRFU would have saved a few bob on their wages. But neither Munster nor Leinster might have any Heineken Cup wins, they wouldn't be able to fill Lansdowne when they meet every year. They wouldn't have the World record club attendance for the '09 HEC semi. I'd say their wages have been worth it and then some.

by dummy_half Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:03 am

An interesting thread to me as an outsider looking in - I can certainly see a window of opportunity for RU in Scotland given that Scottish football is clearly in decline - a few years ago it wasn't unreasonable to suggest that Rangers and Celtic would be challenging for Champions LEague spots if they were in the EPL, but nowadays they'd be looking more like challengers for Wigan and Blackburn's spots at the lower end of the league.

Does this present an opportunity for Scottish rugby? Maybe a bit, although as others have said, Glaswegian sport will always be strongly dominateed by the Old Firm (regardless of their playing standards - the mythology of the fixture will keep it strong even if both sides could only field part time pros), so Glasgow RU will have to be inventive to attract and retain more support, while Endinburgh might have a slightly easier marketing job.

A crowd of about 3000 for a high level rugby match in a city the size of Glasgow is fairly derisory though - what you need is to create a buzz round the game, and I think the most likely way for that to happen will be the emergence of a top class and media-friendly player -look at how important BOD has been for the development of rugby in Ireland. A couple of rising superstars, being paid enough to keep them in the Scottish regional teams, should help create a buzz and so provide significant steps forwards for the game north of the border.

Also, a bit of success for the national side would probably help, especially a victory against England...

by Feckless Rogue Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:44 am

Scotland will strike it lucky with the emergence of one or more superstars at some stage. But they really need to hold onto them if regional rugby is to grow. There's enormous room for growth. But if regional rugby isn't grown and improved, how can the national side expect to find more success?

by BridgendBoyo Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:34 pm

I hope the game in Scotland gains some momentum...

with all this talk of how rugby gets so little coverage in Scotland, it's hard to imagine that a Scotland vs Wales game in Edinburgh still holds the record for crowd numbers for the 5/6 nations game at 110,000 (I think)

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:34 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:That's why they should bring back Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds. If they could afford to. Why don't Arab oil billionaires like rugby? Scotland need to invest in rugby and be ambitious to get better. I suppose the problem is they don't have the funds in the first place to invest. Surely there's Universities in Edinburgh and Glasgow. Maybe they should advertise more to them. Give away free tickets. Give good deals. Could boost revenues. Students would buy beer even if you let them in on the cheap.

But at the end of the day, no amount of marketing boosts attendance and revenues as much as success on the field does. Players as good as Gray are worth more than you think. Their actions on the field can inspire devotion from fans and win recognition from not rugby people. That's why I'm surprised at the attitude to the likes of Gray and Brown playing outside Scotland. It seems to be just accepted.

Imagine O'Connell, O'Gara and O'Driscoll went to France 10 years ago. The IRFU would have saved a few bob on their wages. But neither Munster nor Leinster might have any Heineken Cup wins, they wouldn't be able to fill Lansdowne when they meet every year. They wouldn't have the World record club attendance for the '09 HEC semi. I'd say their wages have been worth it and then some.

Feckless, let me know if you find any of those rugby-oriented oil sheiks?!

Don't forget that Gray leaving didn't come down to money - he simply wanted to experience playing rugby outside of Scotland, not much we can do about that, but it does mean that we'll have to unearth a decent replacement, whether it's Tom Ryder or Jonny Gray, his wee bro, or Rob McApline, another promising youngster. Similarly when Kelly Brown left, we had two prospects in waiting in James Eddie and Rob Harley, and the latter is well on the way to fulfilling his potential, while the former has yet to do so.

Don't forget that with POC, DOC & ROG, you have the pension incentive to offer these guys which makes a fair bit of difference

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:36 pm

BridgendBoyo wrote:I hope the game in Scotland gains some momentum...

with all this talk of how rugby gets so little coverage in Scotland, it's hard to imagine that a Scotland vs Wales game in Edinburgh still holds the record for crowd numbers for the 5/6 nations game at 110,000 (I think)

You're right Boyo, back in the days when vast chunks of Murrayfield were terraced - I think they just let everyone in that turned up in those days, tickets or not!

by BridgendBoyo Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:52 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
BridgendBoyo wrote:I hope the game in Scotland gains some momentum...

with all this talk of how rugby gets so little coverage in Scotland, it's hard to imagine that a Scotland vs Wales game in Edinburgh still holds the record for crowd numbers for the 5/6 nations game at 110,000 (I think)
You're right Boyo, back in the days when vast chunks of Murrayfield were terraced - I think they just let everyone in that turned up in those days, tickets or not!

by BridgendBoyo Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:53 pm

oops forgot to post a meassge then lol.

Bring back terracing and free entry to games i say....it could help with attendances in scotland Very Happy

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:55 pm

The trains on the line that ran along the back of the stadium used to stop for a couple of minutes too, so the crowd was technically even bigger!

by funnyExiledScot Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:13 pm

George Carlin wrote:Makes me cry though. When I was a boy, my Rangers teams have had Terry Butcher, Mark Walters, Mark Hately, Brian Laudrup, a pre-fat Ally McCoist, Iain Durrant and Rino Gattuso in them. The honest truth is that relatively speaking, no Scottish club gets that quality of player any more.

Very true. As a Rangers fans as well since the early 90's it's been an equally painful fall from grace for Scottish football as it has been for Scottish rugby.

by screamingaddabs Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:18 am

The SRU cannot afford a third team at the moment, so we need to forget about it for now unless a private investor shows up with more than just words.

I would say that the problem in Glasgow stems from the lack of tradition. It's a fabricated team in a city that doesn't like rugby much. To change this they need to get people in to watch the games easily to get them hooked. Why not have a game with free entry (heavily advertised) every once in a while? I realise there would be a loss from ticket sales that day, but if they chose a game that was only going to get low attendance anyway would that money not pay itself back by people coming back to games in the future?

The biggest problem is definitely that people don't even know that it's there. There are plenty of people who like rugby (not a large % but enough actual numbers) in the city, it's about keeping these people informed and reminding people all the time to come down and watch.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:46 am

Scottish players plying their trade outside of Scotland at the professional level:

England:
Newcastle:
Ally Hogg - no.8
Euan Murray - Prop
Alex Tait - FB/wing - (Brother of Mat Tait)
Michael Tait - Centre
Grant Shiells - Prop
Tim Swinson - Lock - (Scottish grandfather)

Alan Tait- Coach

Gloucester:
Scott Lawson - Hooker
Rory Lawson - Scrum Half
Al Strokosch - Flanker
Jim Hamilton - Lock

Bryan Redpath - Head Coach
Carl Hogg - Forwards Coach

Bath:
Simon Taylor - no.8
Mark McMillan - Scrum Half
Jack Cuthbert - Full Back
James Tyas - Flanker - Academy - (on loan at Plymouth Albion?)

Ian McGeechan - DOR

Exeter:
Bryan Rennie - Centre/wing

Sale:
Richie Vernon - no.8/Flanker
Fraser McKenzie - Lock/blindside
Al Dickinson - Prop

Saracens:
Kelly Brown - Flanker

London Irish:
Joe Ansbro - centre/wing

London Wasps:
Hugo Southwell - fullback
Ross Samson - scrumhalf

Worcester:
Alex Grove - Centre
Bruce Douglas - Prop

Championship players:
Ian Grieve - Flanker- Bristol
Sean Marsden - Full back- Bristol
Mitch Eadie - Back Row/Lock- Bristol
Gordon Ross - Fly Half- London Welsh
Jonny Baird - Back Row-Nottingham
Mitchell Todd - Lock- Nottingham
Cameron Mitchell - Centre- Plymouth Albion
Ian Nimmo - Lock - Cornish Pirates
Sean Tomes - Lock- Bedford
Duncan Taylor - Bedford
Stuart Corsar - Prop - Doncaster
Stephen McColl - Leeds
Dougie Flockhart - Wing - Doncaster
Mike Adamson - Flyhalf - London Scottish
Charlie Broughton - Wing/fullback - London Scottish
Lewis Calder - Flanker - London Scottish
Ollie Grove - Centre - London Scottish
Willie Lipp - no.8/Flanker - London Scottish
Ben MacDougall - centre - London Scottish
Ian McInroy - centre/wing - London Scottish
Tom Yellowlees - Flanker - London Scottish
Callum MacBurnie - Centre - Moseley
Garry Law - Rotherham
Neil Cochrane - Hooker - Beford
David Morton - Prop - Plymouth Albion
Michael Maltman - Flanker - Moseley

RaboDirect pro-12:
Dan Parks - Fly Half - Cardiff
Sean Lamont - Wing - Llanelli
Nikki Walker - Wing - Ospreys
Simon Danielli - Wing - Ulster

France
Rory Lamont - Fullback - ?
Jason White - Lock/Blind Side Flanker - Clermont
Scott Murray - Lock - Castres (retired from intl rugby? )
Scott Newlands - backrow - Oyonnax
Max Evans - OC/wing - Castres
Mark Bennett - centre - Clermont
Nathan Hines - lock - Clermont (retired from intl rugby)
Alexandre Wukovits - no.8 - Bordeaux-Begles
James Murray - fly half - HK? (U20 in 2007, ex-Bordeaux-Begles, ex-Leeds, ex-Edin Accies)

More than enough for another two pro-teams in Scotland if only the finance could be found?

Braveheart

by **RDW** Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:34 am

To give an example of how bad rugby coverage is in Scotland - BBC Scotlands news coverage tonight finished with the "sport" section.

Did they mention Glasgow's win? No. The new Hibs boss and some football player who is banned from drink driving. And that's it!

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:29 pm

Yes BBC Scotland are utterly woeful. Their 5 minute sport part of Reporting Scotland is particularly dire - with that wee buttoned up prat wittering on about wendyball tittle tattle - on Thursday night it was some thicko from St Mirren (?) mangling the English language. Whatever this idiot was talking about it was unintelligible. The sooner crappy wendyball goes out of business the better !

by Feckless Rogue Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:54 am

Watched Glasgow v Ulster on RTE last night. Commentators were saying that Gray was offered more by Glasgow to stay than he would get at Sale but he turned it down. Wanted to be challenged week in week out in the Premiership, since Glasgow don't have much hope of going far in the Heineken Cup. Rumour has it they were offering 300k sterling to make him Scotlands highest earner. Pity he didnt stay. Well at least they tried and it shows the ambition to keep big stars in Scotland is there.

The 6 Nations is the big financial driver of European rugby. I presume Scotland get an equal share of TV money and nearly fill Murrayfield for home games. So while it's the biggest source of money, it's not gonna get much bigger. Any growth in revenues has to come from the regions attracting bigger audiences. So hopefully the ambition to keep big players in Scotland and actually go for silverware will pay off in the longer run, even if Gray has made the strange decision to play for a mid-table English team, who aren't in the Heineken Cup, for less money.

by bsando Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:34 pm

I don't know if someone has already commented on what i'm about to say (a lot of comments to sit and read) but i'll say it anyway. I agree with you that both Edinburgh and Glasgow should try to take this opportunity (scottish football floundering) to get more fans involved and watching them play. Hopefully more good Heineken cup results will help this. There is also attractive new players in both teams such as lemi for glasgow and tim visser's little bro for edinburgh. I would also like to see the SRU make an effort at destroying the perception of class difference in rugby. A lot of my mates in Scotland who only watch football consider rugby a posh persons sport which is incredibly naive. Its a very scary thought to think that someone might not watch a certain sport because they consider it to be the sport of a certain social group they despise.

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:40 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:That's why they should bring back Border Reivers and Caledonia Reds. If they could afford to. Why don't Arab oil billionaires like rugby? Scotland need to invest in rugby and be ambitious to get better. I suppose the problem is they don't have the funds in the first place to invest. Surely there's Universities in Edinburgh and Glasgow. Maybe they should advertise more to them. Give away free tickets. Give good deals. Could boost revenues. Students would buy beer even if you let them in on the cheap.

But at the end of the day, no amount of marketing boosts attendance and revenues as much as success on the field does. Players as good as Gray are worth more than you think. Their actions on the field can inspire devotion from fans and win recognition from not rugby people. That's why I'm surprised at the attitude to the likes of Gray and Brown playing outside Scotland. It seems to be just accepted.

Imagine O'Connell, O'Gara and O'Driscoll went to France 10 years ago. The IRFU would have saved a few bob on their wages. But neither Munster nor Leinster might have any Heineken Cup wins, they wouldn't be able to fill Lansdowne when they meet every year. They wouldn't have the World record club attendance for the '09 HEC semi. I'd say their wages have been worth it and then some.
Feckless, let me know if you find any of those rugby-oriented oil sheiks?!

On that point, can I point out that my local club side (Abu Dhabi Harlequins) isn't bad! Nice strips too. My local club side was never sponsored by the same company as sponsors Man City!

Dubai 7s coming up for me very soon too. Scottish rugby needs to capitalise on Football's demise 3610695981

Scottish rugby needs to capitalise on Football's demise 3610695981

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:58 am

GC, Hound of Harrow is on his way over mid-week for the 7s - a fine fella Ale

by **George Carlin** Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:28 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:GC, Hound of Harrow is on his way over mid-week for the 7s - a fine fella

Excellent. king

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:44 am

Thinking of new players to add to the list above:

Jamie Sole (son of David) - London Scottish - fullback
Jonny Baird (son of Roger) - Nottingham - flanker

Braveheart

by Intotouch Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:53 am

I'm not sure that rugby can profit from football's failings so easily. Here in Ireland I know a man who won't bring his children to watch his nearest pro football team again because he says that the standard is so crap (Bohemians) and he hates the ground. So what does he do? He and his children support Man U. Sincere football fans are not suddenly going to start liking rugby because their football team is dodgy. Sorry.

From what I read Scottish playing numbers among children are higher than ever, as are the number of schools playing. If these kids can be brought to the pro teams and become fans and players then there is the promise of a brighter future for rugby.

by gboycottnut Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:49 pm

When will Scotland learn. What is needed are forwards who are taller and bigger who can win enough lineout ball for the backs to use. The backs themselves are also not good enough to use any individual brilliance and flair skills to score tries like what the great Welsh teams were famous of doing in the 1970's and what the great England teams did in the 1990's.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:58 pm

gboycottnut wrote:When will Scotland learn. What is needed are forwards who are taller and bigger who can win enough lineout ball for the backs to use. The backs themselves are also not good enough to use any individual brilliance and flair skills to score tries like what the great Welsh teams were famous of doing in the 1970's and what the great England teams did in the 1990's.

Thanks for your perspicacious contribution

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