Ashton in line for caretaker role (Or Not - as things turned out)

thankfully that is Brian not Chris.

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/155211.html

"From what I hear, he has been sounded out and is ready to ride to England's rescue in their hour of need," The Times quoted a "leading rugby source" as saying.

Former Leeds coach and current England Saxons boss Stuart Lancaster is another name in the frame, while current scrum coach Graham Rowntree - who emerged from the leaked reports last week with his reputation intact - is another man who the RFU may opt to call upon.

I would be surprised if Brian Ashton would even consider taking the job after the way he was treated.

Cymroglan wrote:I would be surprised if Brian Ashton would even consider taking the job after the way he was treated.

What, retained far longer than he should have been?

Compared the the way Johnsons been treated he had an easy ride. The talk of divisions in the camp is nothing compared to what went on in 2007, when the side peforemed much worse despite reaching the final and through his tenure England were consistently abysmal.

Noooo thanks. I'd much rather Lancaster.

I think Lancaster deserves a go for the 6N. Retain Rowntree and give the rest the elbow and let Lancaster go from there. No one will expect much from him so if he fails then he can go back to the Saxons with everyones best wishes but if he suceeds he could be a good candidate for taking the role on.

Just because MJ was badly treated doesn't mean that Ashton wasn't. Even if he was less successful than was hoped, Ashton was badly treated and I can't imagine why he'd want another stint at the RFU.

This is just a continuing pattern of incompetence. Not much will change until a proper CEO is appointed with some real authority and Andrew is shown the door.

I think Ashton should agree then drop out at the last minute with little warning, treat the RFU with the contempt they showed him previously.

I didnt think that Ashton was a bad manager to be honest. Maybe not the most charasmatic but he got England to an RWC final. I think that he would be a good short term manager to bring stability to this England team.

I didnt think that Ashton was a bad manager to be honest. Maybe not the most charasmatic but he got England to an RWC final. I think that he would be a good short term manager to bring stability to this England team

I don't think he did. The senior players pretty much took control over proceedings following the drubbing against SA. The likes of Wilko, Catt, Kay, Vickery, Corry and Dayglo changed the way England were playing.

I agree with eirebilly and cymroglan. Ashton is a very good backs coach - he would fit in well under a head coach and perhaps bring some stability (it cant get much more unstable) and attacking flair as a temp head coach. He was treated appalingly at the end of his tenure when the RFU let his sacking rumble on for a month with everyone knowing what was coming. He had just over seen England reaching another RWC final and irrelevant of the supposed player power making his role largely that of a spectator, he was still selecting the side.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I didnt think that Ashton was a bad manager to be honest. Maybe not the most charasmatic but he got England to an RWC final. I think that he would be a good short term manager to bring stability to this England team

I don't think he did. The senior players pretty much took control over proceedings following the drubbing against SA. The likes of Wilko, Catt, Kay, Vickery, Corry and Dayglo changed the way England were playing.

Exac;lty,

England got to the world cup final inspite of him not because of him, and more importnatly he lost the faith of his squad. They were unhappy with the style and the selections, they forced the change. He was quite well known for having his favourites ( something Johnson is panned for) and not having authority over his squad and players. Yes the exact nature of the way he was removed wasnt great, but then the way he got the job wasnt much better either. It was brave of the RFU to make the move they did.

It does highlight an ongoing issue (sorry this is getting way off topic) in the way the England coaches are picked though. Theres so many epopelw itha finger in the pie that a lot of poiltiocs is played with it. Rob Andrew has made no secret that he wante dto retain Ashotn and didnt want Johnson, is it any suprise that he was also a supporter of the DOER role to undermine Johnson? The power struggle that went on over that and other issues is why the RFU is left with so many resignations now.
If Andrew is going to stay in his post then for god sake make it one with a lot of power and make him resposbile for picking the coach and responsible for the fallout if it doenst work. Picking by comittee for someone that reports to a thrid party wont work. Make peopels roles and responsibilities clearly defiend and transparent, and make sure people have who they want to work with in place
In the short term it makes some sense to have Ashton back, he hast the DOERs backing at least ( assuming his contract gets extended past new year). He also isnt someone who wouldnt expect to get the job long term.

I dont really see whats wrong with Lancaster though.

What I would say about Ashton - reading his column in the Indy - is that he is all for players taking responsibility for their actions on the pitch. He doesnt like over coached robots.

Whatever was happening in 2007 I always find it ironic that he is always being panned for his squad following his philosophy.

I rate Ashton as a coach, but he's not a short term answer, his style is all about getting players to think for themselves and requires a fair amount of time to take grip.

Lancaster is the best caretaking option, his Saxons and Academy experience means he knows better than anyone else the abilities of players who need to be promoted into the EPS and how to get the best out of them in the short term.

I am not saying that Ashton is the best short term answer but he isnt a bad one. I think that he gets a lot of negative comments when in actual fact he didnt do a bad job when at the England helm.

People say the SCW was a great manager but did´nt his senior players (led by MJ) ignore his orders in 2003? Are people then going to say that England won the RWC 2003 in spite of SCW?

Fact is, Ashton was at thehelm when England really were not performing but still saw them to a RWC final. Not a bad pedigree i feel.

Jim Mallinder is one of the favourites for the job so why not use this opportunity to get him involved in running the English side.
Get him involved now in selecting the EPS at least then he will have the players he thinks he can work with in his squad.

Jim Mallinder would want the job full time, and not a caretaker funtion. To be he seems the best option for England going forward. Lancaster has been doing some good things and would probably be the best caretaker manager. The problem with being a caretaker manager is just how much responsibility they will be given by the RFU.

Cymroglan wrote:Jim Mallinder is one of the favourites for the job so why not use this opportunity to get him involved in running the English side.
Get him involved now in selecting the EPS at least then he will have the players he thinks he can work with in his squad.

Cymroglan, apparently Mallet is back in consideration to take over full time after the 6N with a caretaker taking the helm in the meantime. Mallinder wouldnt take it on a short term basis for obvious reasons.

That said, its in the RFU's hands so I doubt anyone knows whats going on. Personally, I think they should aim to get someone onboard asap, so that they can select the squad and get to know them/the set up. To come in after the 6N would be a massive waste. They should prioritise the candidates who can start immediately

damn,

The problem with that approach goes back tio the backroom p[olitics.

Would you want someone selecting the head coach ( Andrew) who may or may not be in a job to oversee them and go back to the situation both Johnson and Ashton had where those they report to ewere activley oppossed to them having been given the job in the first place.

Recent events have shown SCW was correct, idleally the RFU would sort oout a permanent backroom structure first and then make sure the coach is appointed by the people he will be working for and with. Not end up witha situation where a guy comes in then his boss turns up a few weeks later and asks who appointed him.

Theres nothing wrong with going through one 6 nations with a caretaker in charge if thats what it takes to get the right set up and appointment, otherwise well just go back through this again in a years time.

BBC Sport understands Stuart Lancaster and Graham Rowntree will be in charge of England for Six Nations.

hAVE A LOOK ON THE bEEB sPORT WEBSITE...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:damn,

The problem with that approach goes back tio the backroom p[olitics.

Would you want someone selecting the head coach ( Andrew) who may or may not be in a job to oversee them and go back to the situation both Johnson and Ashton had where those they report to ewere activley oppossed to them having been given the job in the first place.

Recent events have shown SCW was correct, idleally the RFU would sort oout a permanent backroom structure first and then make sure the coach is appointed by the people he will be working for and with. Not end up witha situation where a guy comes in then his boss turns up a few weeks later and asks who appointed him.

Theres nothing wrong with going through one 6 nations with a caretaker in charge if thats what it takes to get the right set up and appointment, otherwise well just go back through this again in a years time.

Yeah I appreciate that PSW, and ideally the RFU structure/hierachy would be sorted out in advance of them hiring a manager / head coach. However, the RFU has beeen in chaos for years now. It has not been operating sanely and the politcs at the top are largely to blame for this. These problems are ongoing and I suspect they will be for some time given the rudderless lack of seemingly any leadership at the top. How long can the team go without a full time coach? Also, how long would a decent caretaker coach stick around for with the inevitable degree of uncertainty?

I say we need a full time coach to come in asap, even if the structure at the top of the RFU has only been stabilised to a just-about-acceptable degree. The manager / head coach could even play a role in this depending on his skill set.

Unfortunately with Rob Andrew in such a position of unaccountable power we will always have political issues at the top. He is becoming more and more like Peter Mandleson if you ask me, only without the press handling qualities of the latter

damngoodOvalball wrote:I say we need a full time coach to come in asap, even if the structure at the top of the RFU has only been stabilised to a just-about-acceptable degree.

Would you seriously trust the current RFU board and management to appoint a decent full time coach?

By temporarily promoting Lancaster from within the RFU you have someone who doesn't need to adjust to what is around him, knows what he has at his disposal and has experience working with the players (current and up & coming), so can get things up and running quicker for the short time till the 6N. He then slips back to his current role with the Saxons & Academy as soon as he isn't needed any more.

My point is that I dont have any faith that the RFU will sort itself any time soon.
It's been a shambles for years now. I do think that Lancaster is the best choice as a caretaker coach but I also think that the RFU in its current form/structure are incapable of reorganising so that they are all actually pulling in the right (and same) direction for the good of the England team in an adequate amount of time. It will take years without a massive clear out. There are too many factions, all refusing to relinquish any power and/or accept any responsibility. The infighting is seemingly ever increasing.

With many potential candidates likely to refuse to report into rob andrew perhaps the best option is to promote from within the RFU for the full time position anyway

Is Jake White still a contender? If so, then would he not be the best available option? WRU may still be the worst run union by the way before you guys continue to shout down the RFU.

Morgan, I think he is committed to a club side already although I'm not certain.

The wru have been equally inept in the past but now it seems to be far less chaotic than our lot. The hierarchy above WG also seem to be more united now

I would agree with you there. Although the way they run our clubs and superclubs still leaves much cause for concern. Steadily improving though. I didn't hear that about Jake White, who has been expressing interest in the post since post 2007 World Cup.

FORMER World Cup-winning Springbok coach Jake White says he is preparing to apply for the job again.

South Africa’s premature elimination from the World Cup on Sunday has inspired White to bid to take charge of rebuilding the national team

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/jake-white-wants-bok-job-back-1.115404

Jake White is in charge of the Brumbies. He said the other day he would be interested in the England job, but it was pretty non-specific and a future speculation. Basically he's committed to the job down there.

The first step for the RFU is the appointment of a new CEO which is set to be named in 2 weeks. They build from there, with someone other than Andrews making the key decisions and appointments.

someone in that sort of position will be pushed, theoretically speaking a person in such a position might have contractual stipulation giving him a golden parachute if pushed and zip if that theoretical person quits
all theoretically speaking of course

In the next couple of days the RFU wil be sorted out,but don`t count on it.
Theory says many of current RFU members are due £250,000 bonuses for the successof English Rugby!!!!.
Several High Profile names including Nick Mallatt,Wayne Smith,John Kirwan,and Eddie Jones have been mentioned.
Ashton was shamefully treated,and it was Publicly admitted by RFU he should`nt have been sacked.At the the timeof the admission he was offered a job within the England setup but justifiably refused.
Many names mentioned as candidates are Contracted elsewhere,so some delay would ensue.
Ashton.like others will have no truck with it IF they have to answer to Andrew.
WHEN the new RFU Board is established,HE like every one else in this sorry mess.
Should Re-apply for jobs of Coaching and Managing posts,Graham Rowntree asidethey should go.
A Jim Mallinder/Ashton axis would probably work very well,players respect both Coaches.
Ashton is an excellent backs Coach.

It really is hard to see anyone who would want the job as along as the RFU is not sorted out. And I would question anyone who would want the job whilst the RFU is in its state of flux (ie. all fluxed up).

doctor_grey wrote:It really is hard to see anyone who would want the job as along as the RFU is not sorted out. And I would question anyone who would want the job whilst the RFU is in its state of flux (ie. all fluxed up).

Except Kirwan who was all over the papers today saying he would be happy to take it on for 6 months so long as it was clear it was on that basis, with the option for applying for the fulltime job.

"I'm a young coach, I enjoy risk, I love attack. Someone needs to get in there and sort the team out."

After reading that and seeing that he accepts the job for what it is ...

get him... and Ellis with Rowntree

I'd be happy with that.
Lancaster head coach
Ellis defence
roundtree - forwards
Kirwan - attack

The RFU is a joke, I hope Ashton tells them where to go!

I read that about Kirwan to. He would be a good option to have on board. He is even willing to only take over for a temporary basis to show what he has to offer, but that was on the condition he was gauranteed another position within the RFU if asked to step down from head coach/manager position in 6 months time. Very courteous of him if you ask me.

Wouldn't be too unhappy with either Lancaster ( obvious caretaker coach, just to fill in while the chaos subsides) or Kirwan, who appears to see this as a window of opportunity to prove himself at a higher level of international coaching than he had with Italy (where he did an adequately good job).

Can't see any benefit in looking to appoint a head coach or manager until the structure is sorted and Rob Andrew is shuffled out of the way (and preferably off the top of a very tall building). Mallett is on record as saying he'd apply but will not work below a Director of Rugby.