The Mayweathers

So who do you guys rate as the best trainer, Floyd senior, Uncle Roger, or Uncle Jeff. Floyd senior has had the biggest collection of names, De la Hoya, Hatton, even lalia Ali (I think). Old Rog is prob better staying away from women boxers.

Did Roger just have the luck to have a personality that turns out to be compatible with the golden goose?

So what do you guys think, who's the best? and do you rate any of them at all?

Such is FMJ's talent that I believe he could have been trained by a 70 year-old alcoholic plucked from the Bingo hall and still have achieved most of what he has done. It has generally appeared to me that Floyd has done pretty much what he wanted with his own career, in any case. How many trainers would advise their charge to take regular year-long sabbaticals from the game, get themselves into all kinds of out of the ring shenanigans and then take on someone as ostensibly dangerous as Ortiz?

No, great trainers are those that improve fighters with weaknesses to the point that they can succeed despite them (Roach, for example). I don't really see the Mayweathers as great exemplars of their profession - certainly I would love to know whether Floyd senior had any hand in Ricky's "strategy" against Pacquiao.

Both Floyd and Roger have been heavily involved at different times with Floyd since he was 5 so they must have some sort of talent as a trainer you aren't born that good.

Oscar De La Hoya believes Floyd Snr is an excellent trainer and has said so on many occasions.

As captain says, it's a little difficult to gauge Roger's abilities as a trainer given the supremely gifted (proverbial) lump of clay he's had to work with. As for Floyd Sr, I'd say he's flattered to deceive. His work with Hatton was, by all accounts, shambolic to say the least, and while he and De la Hoya had considerable success, was Oscar a better fighter than he had been previous to Floyd Sr's influence? I'd say the opposite, in fact.

Could also be a reflection of the time Floyd Snr trained him and the weight Oscar was fighting at. I'm not sure really but I know Oscar thinks of him highly.

Chris that lump of clay had to be moulded into a fighter. Like I said before he wasn't born that good. Yes Floyd has a tremendous work ethic but he was trained form a kid by Roger and Floyd and at times Jazzy Jeff so they must have some capabilities as a trainer.

Floyd looked like a world champion on his debut. I don't think you can effectively judge trainers anyway, but I don't remember being especially impressed with any advice they've given.

Not for a single second trying to imply that Roger has no capabilities as a trainer, PBK. You're perfectly right in saying that Floyd Jr needed moulding, but then so do all fighters. Doesn't necessarily mean that their trainers are top drawer, though.

Look at Charley Goldman, for instance. He took a stocky, uncoordinated Marciano who'd never boxed professionally until the age of twenty-four with hardly any amateur background, a man who Bert Sugar maintains used to swing so wildly in early training that he ofted went full circle and tripped over his own feet, and made him in to one of the great Heavyweight champions.

I'm not saying that Roger is incapable of such a feat himself, but when he has the luxury of working with such a natural talent, it's very hard to gauge whether or not he could duplicate such a feat. The proof is in the pudding I suppose, in so much as he and Floyd Jr have had an extremely successful partnership so far, but there's no doubting that having such a fighter as his charge has made Roger's job easier.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Such is FMJ's talent that I believe he could have been trained by a 70 year-old alcoholic plucked from the Bingo hall and still have achieved most of what he has done. It has generally appeared to me that Floyd has done pretty much what he wanted with his own career, in any case. How many trainers would advise their charge to take regular year-long sabbaticals from the game, get themselves into all kinds of out of the ring shenanigans and then take on someone as ostensibly dangerous as Ortiz?

No, great trainers are those that improve fighters with weaknesses to the point that they can succeed despite them (Roach, for example). I don't really see the Mayweathers as great exemplars of their profession - certainly I would love to know whether Floyd senior had any hand in Ricky's "strategy" against Pacquiao.

slightly harsh there captain. thing is roger has changed floyd and made him a more aggresive fighter. we dont really know as to how much difference this has had to floyds career. also we dont know who makes the executive decisions behind the tactics. floyd has his own choice what to do in his personal life and choosing when to fight but when he does and he gets a training camp going roger appears to pull most of the strings.

They trained him up until that poiint so they deserve some credit for that.

Training kids isn't easy. I have a 6 year old who loves boxing but trying to get him to focus on something for any length of time is a nightmare. My mate who is a trainer at a gym up here says the same thing. A lot of kids up until the age of about 16 are very hard to train because they are very hard to get focused. They obviously did something right with Floyd look at the end result and he still has Roger and Jeff at times around so they must have something. Floyd could have any trainer in the world he wanted with the exception of Roach.

What trainers do give special advice in their corner? Emmanuel Steward says very little most of the time and he's probably the best around.

The greater trainers will always be the ones that get a fighter to totall remould their style or add different weapons to their arsenal.

The Mayweather's obviously know what they're doing, but beyond teaching Floyd Jr the basics, I could be his trainer since he turned pro and he would still be where he is now!

His corner advice ranges from "box this mother******" to "hit this punk upside his head".

Fists of Fury wrote:The greater trainers will always be the ones that get a fighter to totall remould their style or add different weapons to their arsenal.

The Mayweather's obviously know what they're doing, but beyond teaching Floyd Jr the basics, I could be his trainer since he turned pro and he would still be where he is now!

His corner advice ranges from "box this mother******" to "hit this punk upside his head".

But that's my point. The Floyd we seen at the Olympics and when he turned pro was brought to that point by Roger and Floyd Snr. What trainer around would have improved Floyd? What improvements can you make?

I used to think that Roger was just the guy that held the pads for Floyd but Ive actually listened to him more (not easy) and heard his advice and cornering and I do actually think from a gameplan and tactical sense Roger has far more impact than I initially thought. If you listen to him between rounds hes normally pretty spot on and I think floyd owes alot to his ability to see a fight and call it aswell as picking the right strategies.

Fists of Fury wrote:The greater trainers will always be the ones that get a fighter to totall remould their style or add different weapons to their arsenal.

The Mayweather's obviously know what they're doing, but beyond teaching Floyd Jr the basics, I could be his trainer since he turned pro and he would still be where he is now!

His corner advice ranges from "box this mother******" to "hit this punk upside his head".

lemsip all over me fists...

although you cracked me up i disagree i think inbetween all the guff they give pretty sound advice got floyd to make the adjustments against judah.

prettyboykev wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:The greater trainers will always be the ones that get a fighter to totall remould their style or add different weapons to their arsenal.

The Mayweather's obviously know what they're doing, but beyond teaching Floyd Jr the basics, I could be his trainer since he turned pro and he would still be where he is now!

His corner advice ranges from "box this mother******" to "hit this punk upside his head".

But that's my point. The Floyd we seen at the Olympics and when he turned pro was brought to that point by Roger and Floyd Snr. What trainer around would have improved Floyd? What improvements can you make?

Workrate is probably his only weakness. Upping his output would make him nigh on invincible, but you never know whether that would upset other facets of his game.

AlexHuckerby wrote:slightly harsh there captain. thing is roger has changed floyd and made him a more aggresive fighter.

More aggressive than his debut? Than the Corrales fight? I don't think so.

In most sports, there are young talents who have been spoiled by trainers who tried to coach that talent out of them, so the Mayweathers at least deserve credit for allowing FMJ's supreme skills to unfold. However, it is noticeable that their track record elsewhere is not especially fabulous.

Kev mentions Steward, whose record at turning out great fighters from Detroit is obviously top-notch. His work with Lennox Lewis was of an exceptionally high order, but his masterpiece was Dennis Andries, in my opinion. To turn an untutored rhino into a very passable boxer and handful for anyone at his weight required coaching skills of a remarkably high order.

I would draw the distinction between trainer and cornerman, by the way. Not many have been great at both - Steward, I think, was too personally close to Hearns, for example, to hand out the right advice when Tommy really needed it, rather than getting closely involved with his charge. Men like Dundee were masters in both roles, and so was Wales' Eddie Thomas. It is quite instructive to read Hugh McIlvanney's piece on Ken Buchanan's lightweight title defence against Ismael Laguna, when Ken was cut above one eye and developed a huge swelling over the other. Not only did Thomas fix the two different wounds, but he also gave Buchanan precisely the right advice about switching from his peerless boxing style to a more two-fisted attack, more unfamiliar to Ken, but ultimately successful. Trainer, cornerman and cutman - not many have been as good at all three simultaneously as old Eddie.

Scottrf wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:slightly harsh there captain. thing is roger has changed floyd and made him a more aggresive fighter.

More aggressive than his debut? Than the Corrales fight? I don't think so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYgDG8JZ2rA

Floyd Sr. Made him more defensive, Roger made him more offensive.

Damn you, captain! Was literally just about to post a few extracts from 'Hands of Stone' (quotes from Buchanan and Harold Conrad) about Thomas' brilliance in that fight. My thunder is well and truly stolen...You know what you can do with your Hall of Fame!

Post them anyway, Christophe.

Cracking book, was that.

Great minds, etc, Chris!

All posts appreciated, Captain, I'm at a loss about Eddie Thomas, sounds like a guy worth researching.

As for the Mayweathers, My own opinion had been in line with that leveled at Enzo Calzaghe, i.e that the boy made the man so to speak.

I'm not sure that I'm right, I'd take prettyboykev to be a bigger mayweather fan than me, and although motivation and tuition aren't currently required by Floyd, moulding must have been a requirement at some point.

Does anyone think that Roger set's out a gameplan? watching fight footage and spotting weakness?

Also on Jeff, I've heard anecdotally that he is meant to be a great trainer off one of the american forums, but don't really know much about his work.

prettyboykev wrote:Both Floyd and Roger have been heavily involved at different times with Floyd since he was 5 so they must have some sort of talent as a trainer you aren't born that good.

Oscar De La Hoya believes Floyd Snr is an excellent trainer and has said so on many occasions.

In Oscar's book he discusses his various trainers and their pros and cons and he refers to Mayweather Snr as the trainer who pushed him harder than anyone else.

I think you'll never truly know how good they are (not speaking for Jeff as I know very little about him) due to Floyd's natural talent but they should be praised because whatever the case may be they have been heavily involved in one of boxing's greatest fighters (skill wise).

Right, not sure how these compare with McIlvanney's account of Thomas' brilliance in Buchanan-Laguna II, but this is what fight publicist Harold Conway had to say.

"That was a helluva job Eddie Thomas did in Buchanan's corner. I've watched a lot of corners and I've never seen one worked better. Thomas was like an icicle. No matter what was happening in the ring, how much damage was being done to his guy, he never got flustered in there. He watched every move and seemed to hand out the right advice, for he turned his guy over to fighting right when he had to. But during the rounds he kept getting ready for what he had to do during the rest period. That minute really flies by when you've got problems. That man gives the impression of knowing more about all aspects of working a corner than anyone around right now."

Buchanan had this to say.

"I got cut a couple of times in the second fight. Laguna poked me in the eye in the second round. My left eye was blowing up like a balloon. So my trainer Eddie Thomas took a razor blade and he slit my left eye open at the bottom to let all the blood out and have the swelling go down. Sylvester Stallone owes me money for that because he stole it off me. He bloody well did. Did you ever see that happen?"

"In those final rounds, the doctor kept coming to my corner to check my eye because there was so much blood, but my manager would stick his thumb in the cut over my right eye and showed the doctor my left eye and it wasn't deep. It was OK. And just as the doctor had turned to go away, my trainer takes some grease from his hand and puts it on the cut. Once they said 'Seconds out', he put the grease right in the cut. They couldn't see it. Eddie Thomas was a great cornerman. It saved me, and saved the championship. I know they would have stopped it."

Great post Chris, The cutman, would make a great thread on its own, best, worst, eye swells, cuts the whole lot, its one of the gritty yet engrossing sides of the sport.