Mike Brown - England

If Mike Brown doesn't get included in the England squad for the six nations, then whoever is selecting the squad is a moron. He has been the most outstanding full back in the Northern Hemisphere this season and for a full back scores a load of tries.

He is solid in defence, not afraid to put in big hits and his cover defence is outstanding. However in attack he has really improved, his pace which used to be a big question mark is nothing to worry about any more, Brown has serious gas with thanks to Margot Wells, who he has sprint training with. His running lines are fantastic, his vision impeccable, he has an eye for the gap and he can't stop scoring at the moment. He also has a big left boot which Quins can depend on to get them out of sticky situations.

He is a must for England and I would slot him in straight at full back. However there is one minor problem for Brown: he has Ben Foden ahead of him in the pecking order. However if England want to benefit from having two absolutely class full backs, I think that England should do with Foden what New Zealand have done with Cory Jane. Rather them shifting him to the bench to accommodate Israel Dagg, they have put Jane on the wing. I think Foden could make a top notch wing for England and a back three of Brown, Ashton and Foden could be very dangerous, especially on the counter, whilst in defence England would be even more solid. with Foden able to drop back when Brown goes forward on one of his stereotypical surges.

15. M.Brown (Quins)

14. C.Ashton (Saints)

11. B.Foden (Saints)

Well I've heard from an ex Quins player that as a person he is right pain in the arse.

Come to think of it he would fit in nicely in the England set up and would not be out of place at all

He's quicker than alot of people give him credit for....he is playing very well...but i think Foden is still our top 15...

Foden on the wing seriously?

Brown is world class is he?

You could argue Brown should be in the England squad but to relegate Foden to the wing? Brown isn't that good!

Brown should be in the squad agreed. But Foden moved to wing!!!!!!!!!!!

on the Wing..?

nahhh scrum half surely

Brown is one of the major reasons Quins have won 10 AP games on the trot. England coaches will be fools to ignore the facts.

Was he also part of the reason they missed out on the playoffs most seasons?

Lets not get too carried away. Theres clearly some good players doing well at Quins at the moment, and Browns one of those. Hes also been sniffinga round the fringes of teh England squad for some time. Theres no question he should be in with a shot of the EPS, but Id be suprissed if anyone dispalced Foden and Ashton at this point. Its one of the few functioning combinations in the side. I get the point though, use Foden to repalce Cuetos role as the creative winger and second kicker in the back 3. The other possibility there is stick with Foden at 15 and put Armitge opposite Ashton.
Id like to see those 4 in the EPS, alongside one other out and out winger. See how they get on in training and select from that. Given its Lancaster taking charge for the 6Ns I doubt we will see too much radical change, so Brown is unlikely to start ahead of Foden.

beshocked wrote:Foden on the wing seriously?

Brown is world class is he?

You could argue Brown should be in the England squad but to relegate Foden to the wing? Brown isn't that good!

Is Foden world class?? I would take many other 15s over him..

Who?

Ugo Monye?

Brown is to slow for international rugby, Dan Cole is quicker over 15m.

Na, I dont think so. He would be good back-up for Foden, and I like the fact that he will leapfrog Armitage.
But you cant shift players out of position all the time. That has been seen with Ugo at 15, and Armitage on the wing for england (yes he did well but he found himself out of position often).
Order - IMO at the moment (2 15's will probably be picked for the EPS)
Foden
Brown
Morgan
Abendanon
Armitage

HammerofThunor wrote:Who?

Who would I take over Foden? This will be quite the list..

For Ireland I would take both Kearney and Felix Jones. Halfpenny for Wales looks more dangerous than Foden and has less experience at 15. Nacewa for Leinster. Kurtley Beale. JOC if he plays at 15 which he does for his club at times. Francois Steyn when he plays 15, or the young 15 who played most SA games at 15. Israel Dagg. Muliana. That is just off the top of my head..

World class generally means fighting for that position with the best of them. Foden falls pretty short imo.

Interesting reading Rory.....

Im very critical of many of the current England players...however Foden is one that i think is generally right up there.

My only critic of his, is that he doesnt really kick enough...and can be slightly predictable continuously running it back when a good hoof upfield might be the prefered call. Imagine being critical of an England player for wanting to run the ball not kick it....

However he is quick, he runs good lines, he is safe as houses under the high ball, he is brave, he tackles well...he scores tries...what more can he do?

Its difficult to show any kind of form in a backline containing the creative talents of Johnny, Mike Tindall, and when others like Youngs etc are out of form and injured.....

Foden on form is a world class fullback.

Admittedly he hasnt been top of his game for england recently but in the AIs back in 09/10 (i cant remember) he was a player that the ABs we worried about. When he got the ball you could see them back off a bit to see what he would do. Solid under the high ball, very fast okayish step, good defence and very strong. He provides a solidity at the back whilst being dangerous going forward. In the premiership and HC he is often the source of saints best plays and i think he is starting to return to the form that got him into the england squad.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Who?

Who would I take over Foden? This will be quite the list..

For Ireland I would take both Kearney and Felix Jones. Halfpenny for Wales looks more dangerous than Foden and has less experience at 15. Nacewa for Leinster. Kurtley Beale. JOC if he plays at 15 which he does for his club at times. Francois Steyn when he plays 15, or the young 15 who played most SA games at 15. Israel Dagg. Muliana. That is just off the top of my head..

World class generally means fighting for that position with the best of them. Foden falls pretty short imo.

Cant agree with that. Felix Jones... c'mon hes played 3 tests and hasn't set the world alight. Even as a welsh supporter ill say that Foden is a better fullback than Halfpenny... at the moment. Francois Steyn is ok at 15 but is best at 12.

The trouble with Foden is that his only up for it on a Saturday!

gowales wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Who?

Who would I take over Foden? This will be quite the list..

For Ireland I would take both Kearney and Felix Jones. Halfpenny for Wales looks more dangerous than Foden and has less experience at 15. Nacewa for Leinster. Kurtley Beale. JOC if he plays at 15 which he does for his club at times. Francois Steyn when he plays 15, or the young 15 who played most SA games at 15. Israel Dagg. Muliana. That is just off the top of my head..

World class generally means fighting for that position with the best of them. Foden falls pretty short imo.

Cant agree with that. Felix Jones... c'mon hes played 3 tests and hasn't set the world alight. Even as a welsh supporter ill say that Foden is a better fullback than Halfpenny... at the moment. Francois Steyn is ok at 15 but is best at 12.

Watch Felix Jones for Munster. Outstanding player and I can't wait to see him feature more. Halfpenny I find more exciting than Foden. Steyn ok at 15? Watch him for his club more. Forgot to mention Medard/Poitrenaud for France. Heymans too when he plays 15.

For Ireland I would take both Kearney and Felix Jones. Halfpenny for Wales looks more dangerous than Foden and has less experience at 15. Nacewa for Leinster. Kurtley Beale. JOC if he plays at 15 which he does for his club at times. Francois Steyn when he plays 15, or the young 15 who played most SA games at 15. Israel Dagg. Muliana. That is just off the top of my head..

Kearney is horrifically overrated I'm afraid. He's rock solid but his only addition to an attacking move is to run straight (normally into contact) or launch an up and under. Jones has a lot of hype at Munster but I've yet to see it, I watched keenly last year as Munster played Quins and saw only a player out of his depth, admittedly it was one game but currently he is injured so I haven't had chance to change my original view. Nacewa is a great player of that there is no doubt, Beale is alright but I'd probabley go with Foden as Beale tends to run himself into trouble. JOC has that touch of magic about him but Steyn has always been a better centre in my eyes.

The Kiwis are both good and Muliana a legend, would like to see Dagg display some more footballing skills on the international stage before I join the group heralding him as the new great NZ 15.

Order - IMO at the moment (2 15's will probably be picked for the EPS)
Foden
Brown
Morgan
Abendanon
Armitage .

If you replace Abendanon with Homer in that list then I agree. Shame Alex Goode is so short of form at the minute as he is a real talent and now he's seen sense and settled at FB I thought he'd kick on, espeically with Sarries playing more fluent rugby with Hodgson in the team.

Beale is alright? Sorry but that is all I got out of that post really. I feel you are mixing up a few players up there! Do you honestly think Foden is above all those players above that I have listed?

Previously I would have agreed with you on Kearney but he has been on great form and shown a great counter attacking game missed from his game previously. Jones is not all hype actually, he was exceptional and monumental in Munster's campaign last season. This is coming from an Ulster supporter. I wouldn't trade either Kearney or Jones for Foden at this stage.

Do you honestly think Foden is above all those players above that I have listed?

Nope but I didn't say I did.

Jones is not all hype actually, he was exceptional and monumental in Munster's campaign last season

As I said I saw him once and was decidely unimpressed, am happy to change my view but he isn't playing so I am unable to do so. Which is a shame because Munster look like they could do with a strike runner from deep and him vs Foden a couple of weeks ago would have been good.

Hopefully that matchup will happen during the 6 nations then! If his form is as it was previously. I prefer him to Kearney, though I think Kearney will probably start.

I think he should be the second fullback in the squad but I wouldn't move Foden just to slot him in.

Well not sure where I would put Foden - in the bunch between 3rd and 8th in the World I would guess.

2 players though are definitely a class above - Beale and Dagg

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Who would I take over Foden? This will be quite the list..

For Ireland I would take both Kearney and Felix Jones. Halfpenny for Wales looks more dangerous than Foden and has less experience at 15. Nacewa for Leinster. Kurtley Beale. JOC if he plays at 15 which he does for his club at times. Francois Steyn when he plays 15, or the young 15 who played most SA games at 15. Israel Dagg. Muliana. That is just off the top of my head..

World class generally means fighting for that position with the best of them. Foden falls pretty short imo.

Interesting that you would have all those European based players over Foden, because in the last HC Foden made more metres and more clean breaks than any other player in the competition and was second for defenders beaten. He also made more metres than anyone else in the 6N (503m, the next closest was 370m), 4th highest defenders beaten total and third highest offloader.

I think Brown should be in the squad, maybe as back up to Foden at full back, give him 20minutes or so against Scotland and see how he goes.

Foden should not be on the wing, especialy when you have Ugo Monye,Charlie Sharples to name 2 good wingers for a start.

niwatts wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Who would I take over Foden? This will be quite the list..

For Ireland I would take both Kearney and Felix Jones. Halfpenny for Wales looks more dangerous than Foden and has less experience at 15. Nacewa for Leinster. Kurtley Beale. JOC if he plays at 15 which he does for his club at times. Francois Steyn when he plays 15, or the young 15 who played most SA games at 15. Israel Dagg. Muliana. That is just off the top of my head..

World class generally means fighting for that position with the best of them. Foden falls pretty short imo.

Interesting that you would have all those European based players over Foden, because in the last HC Foden made more metres and more clean breaks than any other player in the competition and was second for defenders beaten. He also made more metres than anyone else in the 6N (503m, the next closest was 370m), 4th highest defenders beaten total and third highest offloader.

The english version of Sin E? Stats don't tell the full story. There is a lot more to full back play than metres made and clean breaks. Defence plays a much bigger part for a full back in fact. Defence under the high ball, counter kicking, being the last man in defence etc etc. I would not trade Foden for any of those European or otherwise, players that I mentioned.

Foden is superb under the high ball, so you can certainly check that one off your list, he's also excellent at linking with players and creating for others. There are players that are better than him in defence, but he's far from bad and he would have to have let down the teams he plays in pretty spectacularly and often to negate what he brings in attack, and that just hasn't happened (how many occasions can you list?).

I'd say the only thing Foden really lacks is a good kicking game. But he is very strong in the tackle and is pretty much always able to keep the ball alive until help arrives. TBH I'd like him to develop his kicking game, but I really like his willingness to run the ball back.

With regard to Foden running the ball back so much for England this is very clearly a tactical decision and instruction to the back 3. He isnt the greatest kicking fullback in world rugby but compared to say Jason Robinson hes practically David Beckham in that regard. England used to get slated for being a kicking team. Now they have a fullback who can terrorise the opposition in other ways hes suddenly not fit for purpose. Its no wonder the squad is driven to drink

Foden is perfectly capable of kicking, he just chooses not to on most occasions. There's nothing wrong with his kicking when he does take that option. I can't really think of any occasions where him not kicking got England or Saints into trouble, but can think of numerous times where his choice to run has been very profitable.

I love the fact that Foden runs it back...dont get me wrong...what concerns me is that on the odd occasion he he has ran into multiple opposition players...and it has caused a bit of a defensive problem...where a good intelligent kick would have been the better option.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Beale is alright? Sorry but that is all I got out of that post really. I feel you are mixing up a few players up there! Do you honestly think Foden is above all those players above that I have listed?

Previously I would have agreed with you on Kearney but he has been on great form and shown a great counter attacking game missed from his game previously. Jones is not all hype actually, he was exceptional and monumental in Munster's campaign last season. This is coming from an Ulster supporter. I wouldn't trade either Kearney or Jones for Foden at this stage.

Well that's good, because I wouldn't trade you Foden for both of them.

Mm sounds to me like he is overrated by english fans. I think Foden can be very dangerous, but he isn't solid enough for me at 15. Over the world cup he was not good at all I thought, and his supposedly amazing counter attacking was non existent. All the players I listed are very highly rated by all, bar Jones maybe. Who will get his chance to shine soon.

Foden is one of the stars in the england team right now yes, but world class? Not a chance.

I have said in the past and I will say it again, if Ulster were offered just one player from the English Premiership then I would want Foden.

Ulster could do with a good full back - doesn't mean Foden is world class.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Ulster could do with a good full back - doesn't mean Foden is world class.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I have my own, and this includes viewing Foden as one of very few World Class players in the Elite England Squad.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Mm sounds to me like he is overrated by english fans.

It seems more like you are underrating him, you're one of very few non-English posters on this site who don't rate him.

He didn't play as well as he can in the WC, but then that's true of a number of players and happens to even the best, particularly in underperforming sides. Dagg & Beale were the only FBs that really stood out this WC, it wasn't a great tournament for FB or SH performances to be honest. The likes of Foden, Medard, du Preez & Genia performed below the standards we expect of them, but 9 times out of ten they're still top class players.

I didn't say I don't rate him, I think he is a very good and very dangerous player. I don't think he is world class though.

he was one of the only England players making it into the reporters RWC squad lists after each weekend

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

gowales wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Who?

Who would I take over Foden? This will be quite the list..

For Ireland I would take both Kearney and Felix Jones. Halfpenny for Wales looks more dangerous than Foden and has less experience at 15. Nacewa for Leinster. Kurtley Beale. JOC if he plays at 15 which he does for his club at times. Francois Steyn when he plays 15, or the young 15 who played most SA games at 15. Israel Dagg. Muliana. That is just off the top of my head..

World class generally means fighting for that position with the best of them. Foden falls pretty short imo.

Cant agree with that. Felix Jones... c'mon hes played 3 tests and hasn't set the world alight. Even as a welsh supporter ill say that Foden is a better fullback than Halfpenny... at the moment. Francois Steyn is ok at 15 but is best at 12.

Watch Felix Jones for Munster. Outstanding player and I can't wait to see him feature more. Halfpenny I find more exciting than Foden. Steyn ok at 15? Watch him for his club more. Forgot to mention Medard/Poitrenaud for France. Heymans too when he plays 15.

Are you genuinely serious with all of these? You're putting an awful lot of players ahead of Foden on the basis of 'potential' or one good season. Or, in the case of Muliaina and Heymans, on the basis of the level they were at a couple of years ago.

I don't think anyone would argue that Dagg and Beale are ahead of Foden. I would say that most of the other fullbacks you mention are pretty much on a par, however. There's none I would say are definitely better than him. You could make a case with each of them that Foden was better. Foden's better going forward than Kearney, better in defence than Medard, a bit more elusive than Steyn...

Nonetheless, the very worst you can say of Foden is that he's good international class.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I didn't say I don't rate him, I think he is a very good and very dangerous player. I don't think he is world class though.

But you're not talking about whether he is world class are you? If you were you wouldn't be rating Felix Jones, Kearney, Steyn, JOC or Nacewa ahead of him. Or do you think those players are all world class FB's then?

yappysnap wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I didn't say I don't rate him, I think he is a very good and very dangerous player. I don't think he is world class though.

But you're not talking about whether he is world class are you? If you were you wouldn't be rating Felix Jones, Kearney, Steyn, JOC or Nacewa ahead of him. Or do you think those players are all world class FB's then?

Think about what you are saying.. I do not think Foden is world class. I rate him highly however, and he could get there someday but he is not world class right now. Just because I rate other full backs over him doesn't mean I am saying they are world class. Where do you pull that assumption from? Also Kearney previously has been world class and could get there again, JOC is easily world class, Nacewa potentially would be but he doesn't play internationally and Steyn is also a world class player IMO. Jones has the potential. As does Foden in fact but he is not there yet by any means.

Rava wrote:I have said in the past and I will say it again, if Ulster were offered just one player from the English Premiership then I would want Foden.

Dan Carter for me - and we nearly got him too

I actually think, for next year, in Jared Payne we have a better player than Foden already.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Rava wrote:I have said in the past and I will say it again, if Ulster were offered just one player from the English Premiership then I would want Foden.

Dan Carter for me - and we nearly got him too

I actually think, for next year, in Jared Payne Adam D'arcy we have a better player than Foden already.

I agree Geoff....

Core blimey. Even Ulster have two full backs better than Foden and according to Rory

Ulster could do with a good full back

So if they're not "good" and they're better than Foden he must be Poopie

So it's official then Brown should start at 15 and Foden should be taken out the back and put out of his misery?

Cheers for clearing that up gents.

You come to some crazy conclusions.. Or maybe Foden should start since he is England's best fullback? Just because he isn't world class that means he shouldn't play? Don't be daft. He may get there eventually.

As for Ulster's full backs, Payne is out for the whole season so we don't know what he is like really. D'Arcy blows hot and cold, I would definitely rate Foden above him. We need some extra cover, that is why we have the 36 year old Terblanche coming over to add some experience and consistency.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Rava wrote:I have said in the past and I will say it again, if Ulster were offered just one player from the English Premiership then I would want Foden.

Dan Carter for me - and we nearly got him too

I actually think, for next year, in Jared Payne we have a better player than Foden already.

I sincerely hope so re. Payne. Biggest disappointment for me so far this season.

Has Carter snuck into the English Premiership behind my back Geoff......