Jones and McClellan

First of all can I just say that I thought last nights documentary of the Benn vs McClellan 'the fight of their lives' was quite excellent. Sad, moving, insightful, it had the lot.

I was going to mention this on Azania's thread, but didn't want to derail what is an excellent article.

Clips were shown of Gerald training and being interviewed prior to the fight, and it is clear he was one mean bloke, intent on causing as much damage as possible once he stepped through those ropes. He exuded an air of confidence that comes with having a record like his. When told "You are widely seen to be P4P #2" he replied "who's number one?!" (Out of interest, does anyone know who was #1 then, was it Jones Jr?) in a disbelieving, arrogant tone that said 'I'm the best'.

It is well documented that McClellan beat Roy in the amateurs (was this a stoppage or points?) and they mentioned on the documentary that Roy said he would go nowhere near McClellan in professional boxing.

Had such a fight happened in the professional ranks, how would you have seen it going around that time? Would Roy's supposed own fears be right and he'd be hunted down and stopped by G-Man, or would Jones use his incredible speed, reflexes and skills to pick the charging McClellan off? It is a fight that has always intrigued me given the styles, the amateur background and the excitement it could have provided, but how do you chaps see it going?

Would have been Sweet Pea I think.

I believe the Jones not wanting any part of him is a misquote/out of context but I don’t know the original.

Roy wouldn't go near him because he knew he could whack, had the technical ability and aggressive style to spark Roy into next week thus exposing him for the hype job he was.

Sweet Pea??

Was expecting a balanced view from you Coxy

Fists of Fury wrote:Sweet Pea??

Pernell Whitaker.

What's it got to do with Sweet Pea?

Sorry mate I've lost my marbles - you mean Sweet Pea was #1 P4P. I thought you were saying Sweet Pea had fought one of them or something, thought it was you that had lost the plot! Apologies.

Fists of Fury wrote:Was expecting a balanced view from you Coxy

Not sure he would've been standing once GMan landed on him with something big. And GMan would have got to him as he was good enough to do so.

Would have been a great fight, Roy would start favourite for me but only just as McLellan could bang. Would go for Roy Decision or a McLellan stoppage around the middle rounds.

Didn’t know Tyson was P4P#1. Makes sense as Prime Tyson ranks with Roy as one of the most devastating boxers in history but still.

Really don't know how I'd have called that fight...McClellan was everything that was needed to beat Jones, in my opinion, but I find it hard to back against Roy at the same time. One thing is for sure, a lapse in concentration would have cost him dearly.

Jones wide UD/late TKO.
McClellan would have a punchers chance though.

Would go for Jones to take it on points personally - if he got past the first three or four rounds the fight would be his for the taking. Say what you like about Jones, but he didn't half know how to nulify an opponent's strengths. Can see his speed and movement keeping him out of harm's way during the opening stages and McClellan running out of gas after putting all his eggs in the early stoppage basket.

Reading up on their amateur bout, it was reported from one source as being one of the greatest displays of skill and speed seen in a boxing ring (from both men), with McClellan taking a decision that wasn't disputed.

J.Benson II wrote:Jones wide UD/late TKO.
McClellan would have a punchers chance though.

No offence Benton, but you're doing GMan a big disservice by claiming he only had a punchers chance. He was a bit more than that, and Roy has been quoted he wouldn't have gone near him. You don't beat RJJ in the amateurs without being an exceptionally talented boxer.

coxy0001 wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:Jones wide UD/late TKO.
McClellan would have a punchers chance though.

No offence Benton, but you're doing GMan a big disservice by claiming he only had a punchers chance. He was a bit more than that, and Roy has been quoted he wouldn't have gone near him. You don't beat RJJ in the amateurs without being an exceptionally talented boxer.

coxy0001 wrote:No offence Benton, but you're doing GMan a big disservice by claiming he only had a punchers chance.

And you've been doing Jones Jr an absolutely massive disservice with just about every comment you've ever posted about him, Coxy.

Got to go with Jones, think as he carries on and tramples over his memory it is easy to forget just how good he was in and around his pomp, can have all the power in the world, matters not a jot if you can't hit your target clean, obviously the Gman has a punchers chance against anyone but the smart pick has to be Jones to neutralise the threat and win pretty clearly on points.

That is my immediate thought too, Jeff, but the amateur result nags at me. Obviously they're completely different, but Jones didn't change his style all that much when he turned pro, so if G-Man got to him then, what's to say he doesn't get to him in the pro ranks too? That is my only reservation.

88Chris05 wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:No offence Benton, but you're doing GMan a big disservice by claiming he only had a punchers chance.

And you've been doing Jones Jr an absolutely massive disservice with just about every comment you've ever posted about him, Coxy.

88Chris05 wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:No offence Benton, but you're doing GMan a big disservice by claiming he only had a punchers chance.

And you've been doing Jones Jr an absolutely massive disservice with just about every comment you've ever posted about him, Coxy.

Do you want to stay on topic Chris? I quite readily admit he had a brilliant skillset, but to counter that his resume is thin. It's easy to look brilliant against averageness, the mordern day example is FMJ (and by modern i mean in terms of active and at their peak). I don't buy 2 good wins and a host of fights against some seriously mediocre/past it (people who mention Mike McCallum make me smile as he was about as shot as you can get and at a weight class he never excelled compared to his LMW resume) as equalling greatness like others do. We've had this conversation numerous times, i'm not going to be goaded into another arguement by the less intelligent members of the board. Can i just add that because i don't place him on the pedestal you do is my personal opinion, and just because you view him differently gives you sweet f.a. reason to think you're right.

And moving on to the topic.

And he soundly beat RJJ in the amateurs, rumours he had his number in sparring and it's no secret RJJ said he wouldn't have gone near him. To dismiss GMan as only having a punchers chance based on the aforementioned evidence is doing the guy a disservice.

coxy0001 wrote:i'm not going to be goaded into another arguement by the less intelligent members of the board.

Are there any?

Scottrf wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:i'm not going to be goaded into another arguement by the less intelligent members of the board.

Are there any?

You obviously can't read. I didn't word it "less intelligent than me", did i?

Pathetic

Got a source for the ‘ducking’ thing? Not hearsay, an in-context quote.

Think you're overreacting to what was hardly a deep and cutting post there, Coxy. As for staying on topic, I already gave my take on the hypothetical fight above. Not sure why you got so riled there as if I was being out of order - that post was nowhere near as aggressive and petulant as some of your posts deriding Jones have been!

Anyway, onwards and upwards, and all that jazz.

88Chris05 wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:No offence Benton, but you're doing GMan a big disservice by claiming he only had a punchers chance.

And you've been doing Jones Jr an absolutely massive disservice with just about every comment you've ever posted about him, Coxy.

We discredit Margarito so must therefore discredit Jones, I have never had any time for drug cheats.

coxy0001 wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:Jones wide UD/late TKO.
McClellan would have a punchers chance though.

No offence Benton, but you're doing GMan a big disservice by claiming he only had a punchers chance. He was a bit more than that, and Roy has been quoted he wouldn't have gone near him. You don't beat RJJ in the amateurs without being an exceptionally talented boxer.

As a pro, GMan was the type of fighter who was in love with his own power and went looking to KO his opponent, instead of out-boxing them. This explains why he dropped decisions against the likes Milton and Ward.
If McClellan cannot find his target (and Jones was a very elusive target) than he's in trouble.
Their fight as amatuers took place when both men were still young and developing so I wouldnt look to much into it.

J.Benson II wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

J.Benson II wrote:Jones wide UD/late TKO.
McClellan would have a punchers chance though.

No offence Benton, but you're doing GMan a big disservice by claiming he only had a punchers chance. He was a bit more than that, and Roy has been quoted he wouldn't have gone near him. You don't beat RJJ in the amateurs without being an exceptionally talented boxer.

As a pro, GMan was the type of fighter who was in love with his own power and went looking to KO his opponent, instead of out-boxing them. This explains why he dropped decisions against the likes Milton and Ward.
If McClellan cannot find his target (and Jones was a very elusive target) than he's in trouble.
Their fight as amatuers took place when both men were still young and developing so I wouldnt look to much into it.

If we're going to make a mythical matchup then we have to do so when both were focused and in their primes. As a result GMan could box, go to war and seriously seriously bang.

Again, the rumours were he gave RJJ more than he could handle in sparring (again, it's not worth 100% reading into it but it does fuel the fire as to why RJJ wouldn't have wanted him).

And Scott, i'm sure you can use google all by yourself without me having to do it for you. This isn't a random myth like Dempsey's loaded gloves for instance.

There was a clip shown last night where he said something along the lines of 'no opponent can last longer than 2 or 3 rounds with me'.

coxy0001 wrote:

Again, the rumours were he gave RJJ more than he could handle in sparring (again, it's not worth 100% reading into it but it does fuel the fire as to why RJJ wouldn't have wanted him).

Roy Williams regularly gave Ali all he could handle in sparring, does not mean I'd have backed him to do it in a proper fight, there are a plethora of stories of fighters giving certain guys hell in sparring.

coxy0001 wrote:And Scott, i'm sure you can use google all by yourself without me having to do it for you. This isn't a random myth like Dempsey's loaded gloves for instance.

I don’t believe Roy was scared of anyone, just of being robbed away from home.

What is this reinventing of G-man that's going on? P4P number 2? On whose list? His own?
The only semi live fighter he took (pre Benn) on was Jackson, who was half blind and shot when they first fought and still made McClellan look clueless for four rounds.

The only reason he was overwhelming favourite against Benn was his style verses a fading Benn. Were he fighting Eubank I think the press and bookies would have sang a different tune.

rowley wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

Again, the rumours were he gave RJJ more than he could handle in sparring (again, it's not worth 100% reading into it but it does fuel the fire as to why RJJ wouldn't have wanted him).

Roy Williams regularly gave Ali all he could handle in sparring, does not mean I'd have backed him to do it in a proper fight, there are a plethora of stories of fighters giving certain guys hell in sparring.

I did mention we shouldn't take it 100% (get the reading glasses back on Rowley), but why did guys like Bowe want zero part of Lewis having got their arses kicked in a prior fight?

And as far as i'm aware Ali didn't avoid him for partly that reason either.

Scottrf wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:And Scott, i'm sure you can use google all by yourself without me having to do it for you. This isn't a random myth like Dempsey's loaded gloves for instance.

I don’t believe Roy was scared of anyone, just of being robbed away from home.

Hogwash. Roy was as careful as they came.

Bob wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:And Scott, i'm sure you can use google all by yourself without me having to do it for you. This isn't a random myth like Dempsey's loaded gloves for instance.

I don’t believe Roy was scared of anyone, just of being robbed away from home.

Hogwash. Roy was as careful as they came.

Who should he have fought and when? Viable fights with enough reward.

Guys at the top of the game don’t think about losing.

There's the very obvious one in Darius Michalczewski, as far back as 1996, have never been one to believe in Jones' reign at light heavyweight he what engineered by the sanctioning bodies so that he could obtain the three major titles without facing the champion.

Darius wasn’t on his level and wouldn’t press for the fight in the US. As I said he was scared of being robbed, hometown Darius needed to force it.

That's utter garbage, Michalczewski was the rightful champion and should have been beaten in the ring for his titles but instead the WBA and IBF decided to go against everything they've ever done strip DM and make the WBC champion the number contender. Utter BS the whole episode was.

Scottrf wrote:

Bob wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:And Scott, i'm sure you can use google all by yourself without me having to do it for you. This isn't a random myth like Dempsey's loaded gloves for instance.

I don’t believe Roy was scared of anyone, just of being robbed away from home.

Hogwash. Roy was as careful as they came.

Who should he have fought and when? Viable fights with enough reward.

Guys at the top of the game don’t think about losing.

McCallum earlier, Toney earlier (he stalled those fights for years until one was shot at the weight and one was almost forty.
McClellan, Benn, Johnson (should have fought years earlier), Kalambay, Hopkins rematch (earlier), Kalambay, Nunn.

The Michaelczewski things gets a little blown out of proportion, for me. Naturally, I'd have liked to see Jones beat him (and make no mistake, that's exactly what he would have done) but let's be frank, the onus was on Michalczewski to go to America for the fight with Jones, not the other way around.

Besides, Jones consistently beat better compeition throughout his 175 lb reign than Michalczewski did. The German-Pole might have had 'Ring' recognition or whatever, but there's little doubt that Jones was the most impressive fighter at Light-Heavyweight in the nineties and early 00s, and by a distance as well.

People deride Jones' opposition but then slate him for not fighting a guy who defended against Nicky Piper and Mark Prince.

There are 3 people in the planet that think he could have beaten Jones, one is Darius and the other 2 are in this thread. Lineal title isn’t so important when one man is the name and beats your opponents easier than you. Wasn’t Spinks lineal before Tyson? No one thought he was the champ.

It’s not how boxing works, Jones was the name, the P4Per, the fight had to be in America.

Most of those fights were at Middleweight Bob, he didn't stay there long. They'd only have been 'blown up' if he did fight them.

Benn was busy losing to Eubank, Nunn to Toney before Roy dominated him.

Chris it's really not blown out of proportion in any way, Michalczewski was the IBF, WBO, WBA and lineal champion which of those titles did Jones obtain by beating him in the ring, absolutely none, what comes after really doesn't matter he was screwed by the governing bodies because Jones was the bigger draw.

88Chris05 wrote:People deride Jones' opposition but then slate him for not fighting a guy who defended against Nicky Piper and Mark Prince.

Not to mention the fact that Michaelczewski would eventually lose to a man that Jones beat by a shut out.

Roy is by no means blameless in the Dariusz question because his reluctance to travel does not excuse him completely, as others have said most would agree he beats Dariusz with something to spare so for me he should hve jumped on a plane, gone to Germany and smacked him out of there because for me he does so in such a fashion even the German judges would have struggled to screw him out of it. I have been critical of Calzaghe for not doing likewise with Ottke in the past (a fight I see as clear cut) so cannot give Jones a pass for not doing likewise.

Scottrf wrote:There are 3 people in the planet that think he could have beaten Jones, one is Darius and the other 2 are in this thread. Lineal title isn’t so important when one man is the name and beats your opponents easier than you. Wasn’t Spinks lineal before Tyson? No one thought he was the champ.

It’s not how boxing works, Jones was the name, the P4Per, the fight had to be in America.

Most of those fights were at Middleweight Bob, he didn't stay there long. They'd only have been 'blown up' if he did fight them.

Benn was busy losing to Eubank, Nunn to Toney before Roy dominated him.

That is exactly my point. He had 25 fights at middleweight, with only a green BHop to show. All the while he was experimenting at super middle without actually declaring himself one, waiting for the division to grow old/move on like he did at middle. He followed this pattern moving up to light heavy and took out Hill after Dariusz had already taken his aura, then he dithered over fighting the crappest heavyweight for years.

Great fighter, but too careful.

J.Benson II wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:People deride Jones' opposition but then slate him for not fighting a guy who defended against Nicky Piper and Mark Prince.

Not to mention the fact that Michaelczewski would eventually lose to a man that Jones beat by a shut out.

Aged 35. Let's not compare how Roy was doing at that age.

Have always had Michalczewski winning a close fight, he gets lumped in amongst some of the dross Jones beat but was a clear couple of levels above them.

Ghosty, while the WBA and IBF stripping Dariusz was a strange and probably unfair move, what evidence do you have to suggest they did it purely for Jones' personal interests? He got an immediate crack at neither belt.

As I said, the point remains that Jones was taking on better opponents than Michalczewski consistently while they were both at 175 lb. I believe Zsolt Erdei was the 'lineal champion' at Light-Heavyweight for something like four years between 2004 and 2008, but I doubt anyone will want to crucify the likes of Hopkins or Dawson for not bothering with him.

I think we've seen enough times in boxing history that someone having 'world champion' status, even if it's undisputed, doesn't necessarily translate as them being the best in that weight class.

Scottrf wrote:Got a source for the ‘ducking’ thing? Not hearsay, an in-context quote.

Bump.