RJJ v McClellan

by spencerclarke Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:15 pm

Evening all,

I was reading the other day about Gerald Mcclellan beating Roy Jones Jr before they turned pro with a 3-2 split. Mcclellan by all accounts couldn't spar after as his jaw was messed up from the fight despite the win. Apparently it was a great fight with them both really going for it. How does everyone see it going if they had met in the pro ranks? Also was there ever an opportunity where it came close to happening?

Cheers

by 3fingers Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:22 pm

What's a 3-2 split? Did they fight 5 times with rjj taking 2?

by **ShahenshahG** Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:32 pm

For one dreaded minute I thought this was a mooted fight.

by Pedro147 Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:33 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:For one dreaded minute I thought this was a mooted fight.

I'd fancy McClellen at this stage to take it.

by ONETWOFOREVER Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:37 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:For one dreaded minute I thought this was a mooted fight.

Jones by ko or tko mid to late rounds. No one could see that left hook coming.

by milkyboy Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:25 pm

This was a highly anticipated fight before Benn got in the way. McCLellan was a strange character and lost his way a little early in his career, after what Manny Steward himself admitted to being a bit of mismanagement. Whichever, he's known for being a fearsome banger but he could box too on the rare occasions he chose to.

McClellan was maybe a little flattered by the timing of the names he beat. Mugabi in particular was as shot as its possible for a fighter to be. Looking back its hard to see past Junior in this, but, prior to the benn fight it was seen as a mouthwatering clash. I'd love to have seen it.

by ONETWOFOREVER Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:35 pm

milkyboy wrote:This was a highly anticipated fight before Benn got in the way. McCLellan was a strange character and lost his way a little early in his career, after what Manny Steward himself admitted to being a bit of mismanagement. Whichever, he's known for being a fearsome banger but he could box too on the rare occasions he chose to.

McClellan was maybe a little flattered by the timing of the names he beat. Mugabi in particular was as shot as its possible for a fighter to be. Looking back its hard to see past Junior in this, but, prior to the benn fight it was seen as a mouthwatering clash. I'd love to have seen it.

Jackson was still a formidable foe when McClellan beat him but your right Mugabi was gone, should have left after the Haglar beating but went on to get poleaxed by terrible Tim. The G man could bang tho so could be a close fight but Jones too quick.

by milkyboy Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:51 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
milkyboy wrote:This was a highly anticipated fight before Benn got in the way. McCLellan was a strange character and lost his way a little early in his career, after what Manny Steward himself admitted to being a bit of mismanagement. Whichever, he's known for being a fearsome banger but he could box too on the rare occasions he chose to.

McClellan was maybe a little flattered by the timing of the names he beat. Mugabi in particular was as shot as its possible for a fighter to be. Looking back its hard to see past Junior in this, but, prior to the benn fight it was seen as a mouthwatering clash. I'd love to have seen it.

Jackson was still a formidable foe when McClellan beat him but your right Mugabi was gone, should have left after the Haglar beating but went on to get poleaxed by terrible Tim. The G man could bang tho so could be a close fight but Jones too quick.

Terrible Tim? Terrible Terry?

Jackson was knocking on a bit and a few were questioning if he'd slipped a bit, but he was on a long unbeaten run, so definitely still a live and dangerous opponent. Not a bad fight Jackson McClellan 1.

Steward described McClellan as having the best physical attributes of any guy he trained... Which was a way of saying all the natural ability and physicality but not the attitude/intelligence. Wouldn't listen, wanted to bang everyone out.

I tend to take what manny said with a pinch of salt generally but always struck me as a reasonable looking assessment of McClellan.

by ONETWOFOREVER Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:48 pm

Sounds just about right milky

By all accounts the g man was a bit of a nasty type who abused animals and would as Richard Keys would say ''smash it'' in the hotel before fights, but yeah he was formidable Ingle described him as a ''wedge'' in physical terms.

I think Benn should get extra credit for that win but sadly and understandably the outcome gets all the attention.

by Coxy001 Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:23 am

Pointless scenario. Roy wouldn't go near him... Could bang (and the rest) and wasn't there for the picking like kfc Toney. Underrated skills and speed, no chance the fight would have been made as RJJ knew his chin was made of glass and thus only fought guys he could throw his quick flashy combos against without getting tagged back.

And those fast twitch fibres were never quite the same after he had his help taken away from him.

Guy should be expelled from the record books. Along with Holy.

by **88Chris05** Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:19 am

Even against quicker and more elusive boxers you'd always give McClellan a puncher's chance, but I'd make it a relatively small one against Jones. The young Jones at 160 / 168 was just too hard to hit with a telling shot, for me. Appreciate that the G-Man had hidden depths besides his punching power but I think Jones would be able to win a no-risk points decision leaving McClellan frustrated and lunging after shadows. McClellan would be tenacious as ever and keep up the chase, but Jones had excellent stamina and didn’t tend to wilt in the late rounds. History shows that if you made it past the first handful of rounds against McClellan you could outpoint or outlast him.

Jones by wide decision, for me.

by TopHat24/7 Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:05 am

ShahenshahG wrote:For one dreaded minute I thought this was a mooted fight.

See RJJ got flattened by Enzo the other night?

Possibly one of the most depressing things I've scene in modern era boxing.

by horizontalhero Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:12 am

Have to completely disagree with Coxy, the fight was being mooted in 1995, with McClellan expected to beat Benn to set up the clash. RJJ was not considered a ducker at the time, and there's no evidence ever to suggest he was- the fights against the likes of Eubank ,Benn etc didn't happen but not because RJJ was running scared. He was however badly effected by what happened to McClellan, so that may have given rise to this perception.
The idea that RJJ knew he had a glass chin is pure speculation on Coxy's behalf. Look at his record, both pro and amateur up to the time we are talking about-absolutely nothing to suggest he was chinny in the slightest. The idea that he was on PEDs at this time is also baseless. RJJ by mid to late stoppage- If Benn can land 60 odd hooks in ten rounds, RJJ can, and he too could bang.

by hazharrison Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:17 am

The main stumbling block would have been Don King - he frequently attempted to gain options on Roy. Jones was averse to working with him.

Jones vs McClellan would have been an exciting fight. You'd have to make Jones favourite but this may well have proven to be his toughest contest. McClellan hurt just about everyone he fought. If he'd caught Jones right, he'd have hurt him, too.

by hazharrison Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:21 am

horizontalhero wrote:Have to completely disagree with Coxy, the fight was being mooted in 1995, with McClellan expected to beat Benn to set up the clash. RJJ was not considered a ducker at the time, and there's no evidence ever to suggest he was- the fights against the likes of Eubank ,Benn etc didn't happen but not because RJJ was running scared. He was however badly effected by what happened to McClellan, so that may have given rise to this perception.
The idea that RJJ knew he had a glass chin is pure speculation on Coxy's behalf. Look at his record, both pro and amateur up to the time we are talking about-absolutely nothing to suggest he was chinny in the slightest. The idea that he was on PEDs at this time is also baseless. RJJ by mid to late stoppage- If Benn can land 60 odd hooks in ten rounds, RJJ can, and he too could bang.

Jones was busted for PED use, which the commission swept under the carpet. I'm not sure those accusations are baseless.

In the modern era, if someone looks freakishly quick and powerful (as in uniquely so in comparison to another era) then in my experience, there's a reason for that.

by Hammersmith harrier Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:46 am

Jones failed one test with one commission for a substance that at the time was not on the WADA prohibited list.

by kingraf Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:47 pm

hazharrison wrote:
horizontalhero wrote:Have to completely disagree with Coxy, the fight was being mooted in 1995, with McClellan expected to beat Benn to set up the clash. RJJ was not considered a ducker at the time, and there's no evidence ever to suggest he was- the fights against the likes of Eubank ,Benn etc didn't happen but not because RJJ was running scared. He was however badly effected by what happened to McClellan, so that may have given rise to this perception.
The idea that RJJ knew he had a glass chin is pure speculation on Coxy's behalf. Look at his record, both pro and amateur up to the time we are talking about-absolutely nothing to suggest he was chinny in the slightest. The idea that he was on PEDs at this time is also baseless. RJJ by mid to late stoppage- If Benn can land 60 odd hooks in ten rounds, RJJ can, and he too could bang.

In the modern era, if someone looks freakishly quick and powerful (as in uniquely so in comparison to another era) then in my experience, there's a reason for that.

Probably the same reason I'm fairly certain there must be at least half a dozen members on 666 who could run a 100m time which would have won Olympic gold in the 19th century. Better nutrition. evolution. Sport science progression.

by hazharrison Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:21 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Jones failed one test with one commission for a substance that at the time was not on the WADA prohibited list.

Jones tested positive for an anabolic steroid. He admitted it. He was four or five times over the acceptable limit. Jones claimed it was an over the counter product (as most drug cheats do). That was never proven. Murad Muhammad claimed Jones tested positive for a nasal decongestant. That was rubbish.

The IBF and, even more astonishingly, the media, swept it under the carpet.

Jones was ridiculously well-muscled, ridiculously quick and ridiculously powerful. He moved from middle, to light heavy, to heavy without gaining an ounce of fat. He didn't lose any speed, or power. He tested positive in a nothing fight. Are we supposed to believe that was a one-off?

by hazharrison Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:24 pm

Back on topic: McClellan beat Jones in their only amateur fight (in '88), in the semi finals of the golden gloves. By all accounts it was a great fight and a well-earned decision.

by AdamT Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:56 pm

I can think of a particular fighter who carries freaky power around middleweight.

by ONETWOFOREVER Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:42 pm

hazharrison wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Jones failed one test with one commission for a substance that at the time was not on the WADA prohibited list.

Jones tested positive for an anabolic steroid. He admitted it. He was four or five times over the acceptable limit. Jones claimed it was an over the counter product (as most drug cheats do). That was never proven. Murad Muhammad claimed Jones tested positive for a nasal decongestant. That was rubbish.

The IBF and, even more astonishingly, the media, swept it under the carpet.

Jones was ridiculously well-muscled, ridiculously quick and ridiculously powerful. He moved from middle, to light heavy, to heavy without gaining an ounce of fat. He didn't lose any speed, or power. He tested positive in a nothing fight. Are we supposed to believe that was a one-off?

Jones was ALWAYS well muscled and ridiculously quick as you say even as a teen boxer. I have seen clips of him he was amazingly quick I doubt he was taking peds from the very beginning. I can understand you're point regards the IBF and media shielding Jones from any accusations as he was the meal ticket for boxing at the time.

Remember Pazienza saying much the same thing before their fight

by Hammersmith harrier Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:55 pm

An ananolic steroid that was banned by the IBF and no one else, it was only later added to WADA prohibited list, make out to be more than it was all you want Haz.

by Hammersmith harrier Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:59 pm

Ripped fuel DID contain Andros.

by kingraf Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:50 pm

AdamT wrote:I can think of a particular fighter who carries freaky power around middleweight.

What does Andy Lee have to do with anything?

by AdamT Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:15 pm

You know who I mean

by horizontalhero Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:08 pm

My point was at the time, late 1994 to 1995, no one had suggested that he was on any sort of drug, and growing from a LMW as an amateur to a SMW was hardly likely to raise suspicions. You might that add that Benn, Eubank and Wayson were all pretty ripped too - they were professional athletes! The fact that he may have taken PEDs later to bulk up to HW is irrelevant in a discussion about a fight with McClellan.

by AdamT Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:53 pm

The ped talk is nonsense

He was caught taking a supplement which contained the banned ingredient. I believe plenty of boxers use. Just not everyone gets caught.

by hazharrison Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:24 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:An ananolic steroid that was banned by the IBF and no one else, it was only later added to WADA prohibited list, make out to be more than it was all you want Haz.

Jones was 4-6 times over the limit for this steroid. Taking 'Ripped Fuel' would not achieve that - there'd be a trace but little more.

The ripped fuel thing was never proven and was, in reality, a highly unlikely explanation. Facts are he tested positive for a steroid and admitted as much.

by hazharrison Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:27 pm

AdamT wrote:I can think of a particular fighter who carries freaky power around middleweight.

Yep, and a few at light heavyweight. I'd like to see them adhere to VADA testing.

by 3fingers Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:05 am

by Coxy001 Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:05 am

Jones, having looked so invincible at 175 was able to put on nigh on 20lbs for his HW fight and then carry his speed up? If you bulked up say a Jimmy Anderson by that amount he'd lose his timing and thus speed (basing that on a guy I know who was 2 yards quicker at 18 and then spent a few months bulking up as he was told to by his rugger coaches as he was deemed to slight for a 6). Around that time he had drug allegations swirling around him and low and behold with balco blowing up he suddenly starts getting spanked sideways by guys who wouldn't have been able to live with him before.

Americas record in a load of their big name athletes being cheats, RJJ failing a test and it all points to being very dodgy to say the least. And his sudden drop in form which falls perfectly in to the timeline place of Balco etc merely adds fuel to the fire.

Off drugs he was pretty average. Gman slaps a non fueled up Jones silly!

Saying that there's probably a shed load still doing it.

by hazharrison Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:31 am

I'm just amazed how often fans are willing to buy these excuses. And yeah, it's rife in boxing - doesn't make it acceptable.

by horizontalhero Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:01 am

Coxy001 wrote:Jones, having looked so invincible at 175 was able to put on nigh on 20lbs for his HW fight and then carry his speed up? If you bulked up say a Jimmy Anderson by that amount he'd lose his timing and thus speed (basing that on a guy I know who was 2 yards quicker at 18 and then spent a few months bulking up as he was told to by his rugger coaches as he was deemed to slight for a 6). Around that time he had drug allegations swirling around him and low and behold with balco blowing up he suddenly starts getting spanked sideways by guys who wouldn't have been able to live with him before.

Americas record in a load of their big name athletes being cheats, RJJ failing a test and it all points to being very dodgy to say the least. And his sudden drop in form which falls perfectly in to the timeline place of Balco etc merely adds fuel to the fire.

Off drugs he was pretty average. Gman slaps a non fueled up Jones silly!

Saying that there's probably a shed load still doing it.

Coxy, can you reference even one instance of RJJ being under suspicion of drug taking prior to him moving up from 168? If no, then there is zero basis to suggest that he was juicing during the time frame in which a fight with McClellan could have occurred, and little evidence to support your conclusion that RJJ gets slapped silly. For the record, the allegation that he took PEDS to allow himself to bulk up to HW is credible, but in this instance it's irrelevant

by kingraf Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:02 am

The idea that boxers carrying freaky power makes them dopers is a strange one. Especially when one considers its generally proffered by people who swear up and down that Hagler et al all hit harder... Exactly what are they doping for then?

Guy hits incredibly hard... Is a boxer. next thing you'll be telling me people who run fast get into athletics

by AdamT Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:07 am

kingraf wrote:The idea that boxers carrying freaky power makes them dopers is a strange one. Especially when one considers its generally proffered by people who swear up and down that Hagler et al all hit harder... Exactly what are they doping for then?

Guy hits incredibly hard... Is a boxer. next thing you'll be telling me people who run fast get into athletics

People who run fast in athletics are most likely consuming more than good old porridge. Yes I am cynical, but I am most likely right as well.

People who don't think drugs are rife in these sports, most likely believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. Smile

by kingraf Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:22 am

AdamT wrote:
kingraf wrote:The idea that boxers carrying freaky power makes them dopers is a strange one. Especially when one considers its generally proffered by people who swear up and down that Hagler et al all hit harder... Exactly what are they doping for then?

Guy hits incredibly hard... Is a boxer. next thing you'll be telling me people who run fast get into athletics

People who run fast in athletics are most likely consuming more than good old porridge. Yes I am cynical, but I am most likely right as well.

People who don't think drugs are rife in these sports, most likely believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

Innocent till proven guilty is a thing. guys at the top of athletics (and any sport) have access to medical science which puts them out of the league of a normal man. Do some cheat? Probably. Do I think its widespread? Plausibly. Is it possible to post elite numbers without juicing. Undeniably. We are just now realizing what is possible in medical science. Sport and conditioning is unrecognizable from what it was even a decade ago. Not even fifteen years ago people didn't realize your muscles divided into local stabilizers, global stabilizers, and global mobilisers. That changed the way athletes conditioned themselves completely. It popularized Eccentric and concentric training but it did it in an effective way. Training eccentrically and concentrically for your bicep brachii isn't as useful as doing it for your brachioradialis for instance. At the same time to get better bang for your buck, core training the local stabilisers is a much better idea than the mobilisers. The treatment for recovery for an athlete is on another lane to what it was 30 years ago. CVAC for instance, which is completely legal (but damn expensive) is a better recovery and stamina aid than old world (and completely banned) tricks like blood spinning. ELite athletes can dope. Sure. Its certainly cheaper... But they really don't have to. Its a different world

by AdamT Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:23 am

It's a good post Raf. I do agree we can't taint people until caught. I'm just a cynical c..t Cool

by horizontalhero Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:28 am

in 1936 Jessie Owens ran what was an almost certainly clean 10.2 for the 100m. 80years later despite all the improvements in the tracks, shoes, training, nutrition etc, and the record is 9.58. not a huge improvement all things considered. Drugs improve performance, but can't perform miracles- Chisora could take all the drugs in the world, and he still would not become Mike Tyson!

by kingraf Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:44 am

9.58 is a HUGE improvement. For reference Jesse Owens would have been in a fight for his life to beat Abdul Hakim Sani Brown in the Junior IAAF finals if he ran 10.2

by AdamT Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:46 am

You know what guys. Innocent until proven guilty it has to be. To be fair to athletes, if they can pass drug tests, then who am I to judge.

I have been cynical with drugs in sport, but unless people are getting caught, I honestly don't care anymore.

by kingraf Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:47 am

He's 16

by AdamT Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:49 am

Who's 16 Raf?

by kingraf Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:52 am

AdamT wrote:Who's 16 Raf?

Sorry for some reason that was sent in two
Abdul Hakim Sani Brown, who's PB in the 100m is approximately the same as Jesse Owens' is 16

by AdamT Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:54 am

Of course training advancements has been made as well Raf. As cynical as I am, I really want to believe Usain Bolt is clean.

He is a freak!

by kingraf Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:08 am

I don't know if he is or not, but my physio told me that Bolt's musculature and biomechanical composition was almost designed for 100m. He literally changed the previously accepted limits of huma speed. Now it's hypothesised that we can get down to 9.44

by TopHat24/7 Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:08 am

He's Japanese??!?!! And 6'2"!

by kingraf Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:11 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:He's Japanese??!?!! And 6'2"!

Them Ghanaian genes are strong.

by TopHat24/7 Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:12 am

kingraf wrote:I don't know if he is or not, but my physio told me that Bolt's musculature and biomechanical composition was almost designed for 100m. He literally changed the previously accepted limits of huma speed. Now it's hypothesised that we can get down to 9.44

I thought it was always said he was the 'wrong build' for 100m (being to tall and long-legged) but perfectly suited to his preferred event of 200m??

by Coxy001 Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:20 am

horizontalhero wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:Jones, having looked so invincible at 175 was able to put on nigh on 20lbs for his HW fight and then carry his speed up? If you bulked up say a Jimmy Anderson by that amount he'd lose his timing and thus speed (basing that on a guy I know who was 2 yards quicker at 18 and then spent a few months bulking up as he was told to by his rugger coaches as he was deemed to slight for a 6). Around that time he had drug allegations swirling around him and low and behold with balco blowing up he suddenly starts getting spanked sideways by guys who wouldn't have been able to live with him before.

Americas record in a load of their big name athletes being cheats, RJJ failing a test and it all points to being very dodgy to say the least. And his sudden drop in form which falls perfectly in to the timeline place of Balco etc merely adds fuel to the fire.

Off drugs he was pretty average. Gman slaps a non fueled up Jones silly!

Saying that there's probably a shed load still doing it.

Coxy, can you reference even one instance of RJJ being under suspicion of drug taking prior to him moving up from 168? If no, then there is zero basis to suggest that he was juicing during the time frame in which a fight with McClellan could have occurred, and little evidence to support your conclusion that RJJ gets slapped silly. For the record, the allegation that he took PEDS to allow himself to bulk up to HW is credible, but in this instance it's irrelevant

Was Ben Johnson clean barring one race? Did Margo load his gloves for just one fight? Did that horse trainer drug his horses for just one race? You get the idea. Fact he failed one (which is doing badly with boxings testing protocol) test and was up to his eyeballs in roids makes me think cheat. Cheat cheat cheat.

Cheat. Cheat. Cheat.

by kingraf Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:22 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingraf wrote:I don't know if he is or not, but my physio told me that Bolt's musculature and biomechanical composition was almost designed for 100m. He literally changed the previously accepted limits of huma speed. Now it's hypothesised that we can get down to 9.44

I thought it was always said he was the 'wrong build' for 100m (being to tall and long-legged) but perfectly suited to his preferred event of 200m??

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