606v2 Greatest Test Opening Batsmen Rankings

Morning all

Sorry for the delay in getting the middle order batsmen results sorted, I'll do that in the next day or so.

Meanwhile, we might as well get the voting for the top 10 greatest Test opening batsmen under way.

Same rules apply, post-war batsmen only (those that played both can be considered if their body of work post-war warrants their inclusion).

In order, please.

Thanks.

Gavasker
Hutton
Sehwag
Boycott
Greenidge
Hayden
A Morris
H Mohammed
Gooch
Haynes

You've placed Sehwag very highly there, Stella. Quite surprised. No doubt he has a fantastic record, but his lack of skill does show in some conditions where his eye alone isn't enough to get him by.

Graeme Smith for example, whilst not being anywhere near as good to watch or having that same ability to dismantle attacks, gets runs everywhere he goes and I'd think he was at least the equal of Sehwag in any rankings.

Fists of Fury wrote:You've placed Sehwag very highly there, Stella. Quite surprised. No doubt he has a fantastic record, but his lack of skill does show in some conditions where his eye alone isn't enough to get him by.

Graeme Smith for example, whilst not being anywhere near as good to watch or having that same ability to dismantle attacks, gets runs everywhere he goes and I'd think he was at least the equal of Sehwag in any rankings.

I do enjoy watching Virender in full flow. Also, he does have the ability to rip an attack apart which eases the pressure on Dravid and co.

As with any lists, personal preference is prominent. As such I could probably envisage him being somewhere between 8 and 10, but my initial thoughts are that 3 seems a tad high.

Fists of Fury wrote:As with any lists, personal preference is prominent. As such I could probably envisage him being somewhere between 8 and 10, but my initial thoughts are that 3 seems a tad high.

Possibly Fists but he's the best opener I've seen. I know he has heavy feet and relies on hand/eye co-ordination which will let him down in the near future but he's the only batsmen I've seen hit 290 in one day.

That is an immensely impressive statistic which of course has to be considered. Incredible, when you think about it.

Fists
I try and base my opinions on what I actually see and I've seen quite a bit of Sehwag.
Smith, Langer, Slater and a few others are all quality players but not quite top 10 material IMO.
Also, the two Kiwi's, Turner and Sutcliffe were close.

Thanks for this latest one, Fists.

I'll post my list tonight.

Some very sound names from Stella although no sign of my number one!

PS Has Pietersen ever opened in a test? Thought Gregers might want to know. There again, perhaps not ....

PPS Where is Mr CricketFan?

Some very sound names from Stella although no sign of my number one

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Darren Bicknell?

Stella wrote:Some very sound names from Stella although no sign of my number one

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Darren Bicknell?

Stella - I wasn't actually thinking of him but thanks for the prompt!

Cf appears AWOL! Might have to revoke that lifetime award

Fists of Fury wrote:Cf appears AWOL! Might have to revoke that lifetime award

Even with current cut backs, I'm sure the Corporal will lend some troops for a night time search ....

forward march!

Sunil Gavaskar – India – Avg: 51.12 – Centuries 34 – Fifties 45
Never saw him play, but also a prolific run scorer

Len Hutton – England – Avg: 56.67 – Centuries 19 – fifties 33
From research I am told he is the most technically correct batsman of all time.

Verinder Sehwag – India – Avg: 53.43 – Centuries 22 – Fifties 27
Most devastating opening batsman in modern day cricket.

Matthew Hayden – Australia – Avg: 50.73 – Centuries 30 – Fifties 29
Equally devastating, a late bloomer

Greame Smith – South Africa – Avg: 49.71 – Centuries 22 – Fifties 29
Consistent batsman with a very good strike rate in test cricket. Held a few records with gibbs as the pair with the most triple century partnerships.

Geoffrey Boycott – England – Avg: 47.72 – Centuries 22 – Fifties 42
I understand he wasn’t too shabby

Barry Richards – South Africa – Avg: 72.57 – Centuries 2 – Fifties 2
He has to make the list, but because of only having played in 4 tests, I can’t put him anywhere higher.

Gary Kirsten

Gordon Greenidge

Sanath Jayasuriya

Here's my take:

1)Gavaskar
2)Hutton
3)Simpson
4)Boycott
5)Amiss
6)Greenidge
7)Hayden
8)Sehwag
9)Turner
10)Smith

Post-war caveat really takes a lot of all-time legends out of the reckoning on this one

Jayasuriya averaged 55?? Really?!

I thought it was about 40?

Biltong, needs to be post-war mate, sorry.

You're right Hoggy it does take a lot out of the equation.

We can perhaps look at pre-war rankings once this current lot are complete. I imagine it'll take a lot of research, but it'd be very interesting to do and probably a learning curve for us all.

Yeah i was surprised too. Went to check it now, wiki is $h1t.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanath_Jayasuriya

remove him then from the list.

Says he has 33 hundreds too, what garbage.

I've checked cricinfo, and his average was indeed 40.07, with 14 hundreds. That's more like it.

Just edit your list

biltongbek wrote:Sanath Jayasuriya – Sri Lanka – Avg: 55.78 – Centuries 33 – Fifties 50
For me the best opener in the modern era and before, had a long career and his longevity alone shows with the combination of his batting average that he must surely be the most consistent opening batsman.

eh? Jayasuriya averaged just above 40 in tests! You sure you haven't got him confused with someone else?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/49209.html

Also Hobbs and Sutcliffe, worthy candidates that they are, were pre-war, so are unfortunately excluded from this discussion (they would easily have made my top 5 or so). My own list will follow reasonably shortly, here are some early thoughts.

Sehwag won't make it. I don't care how dominant he is on the flat subcontinent pitches, he has a truly dreadful record in England, SA, and NZ where the ball tends to nip around for more than an over or so. Can't rate an opener in the top 10 if he can't (be bothered to?) guts it out in tough circumstances. His first ball flash in the second innings of the third test in England is one of the worst shots I've seen.

Richards (Barry) will be quite high on the list. is it wrong to go for potential? In my mind would have been one of the all-time greats had his career lasted.

Hutton, Gavaskar, Boycott and Greenidge all make the list.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Sanath Jayasuriya – Sri Lanka – Avg: 55.78 – Centuries 33 – Fifties 50
For me the best opener in the modern era and before, had a long career and his longevity alone shows with the combination of his batting average that he must surely be the most consistent opening batsman.

eh? Jayasuriya averaged just above 40 in tests! You sure you haven't got him confused with someone else?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/49209.html

Also Hobbs and Sutcliffe, worthy candidates that they are, were pre-war, so are unfortunately excluded from this discussion (they would easily have made my top 5 or so). My own list will follow reasonably shortly, here are some early thoughts.

Sehwag won't make it. I don't care how dominant he is on the flat subcontinent pitches, he has a truly dreadful record in England, SA, and NZ where the ball tends to nip around for more than an over or so. Can't rate an opener in the top 10 if he can't (be bothered to?) guts it out in tough circumstances. His first ball flash in the second innings of the third test in England is one of the worst shots I've seen.

Richards (Barry) will be quite high on the list. is it wrong to go for potential? In my mind would have been one of the all-time greats had his career lasted.

Hutton, Gavaskar, Boycott and Greenidge all make the list.

Yeah , fixed it, wiki was telling me totally different stats.

also have edited my list to take the pre-war batsmen out.

Barry Richards played 4 tests.

This IMO is nowhere near enough to get him in this line-up.

It's tough, isn't it? Horrible to omit a man that clearly had bucketloads of potential and ability, but without the solid stats it is likewise difficult to include him when there have been so many other illustrious openers.

By all accounts, Richards would have had a hugely successful Test career. However, without the stats, who is to say he wouldn't have failed to live up to his billing? Unlikely, given the rave reviews he received from his contemporaries, but food for thought nevertheless.

Hick was seen as the next Bradman but look what happened to him. Richards did well in the world series of Cricket and would have probably averaged at least 50 in test cricket but we will never know.

well I have a soft spot for that SA team, I've already included Proctor in my all-rounders list and Pollock up at 2 in my middle-order list, so to remain consistent I shall have to include Richards in my openers list

Graeme Smith should make it too, lots of match-winnning knocks in the fourth innings, great fighter, and a decent captain to boot. Kirsten is a decent shout, incredibly dull to watch, but nonetheless a very fine batsman who was never afraid of the hard graft.

Smith makes mine, which I shall be posting later. Very much admire his ability, fighting spirit and temperament, particularly when it really matters.

Barry Richards also averaged nearly 80 in World Series cricket by the way (though again he only played five "super tests").

Fists of Fury wrote:Smith makes mine, which I shall be posting later. Very much admire his ability, fighting spirit and temperament, particularly when it really
matters.

I did see Smith make a double at Edgbaston, so he is very unlucky not to get in my ten.

to guildford

CF mentioned he'd have a busy time with studies this week so won't be around until early evening most days.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:to guildford

CF mentioned he'd have a busy time with studies this week so won't be around until early evening most days.

1700 hours to be precise

1. Len Hutton
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Barry Richards
4. Bob Simpson
5. Geoffrey Boycott
6. Gordon Greenidge
7. Arthur Morris
8. Graeme Smith
9. Bill Lawry
10. Matthew Hayden

unlucky to miss out:
Dennis Amiss
Justin Langer
Glen Turner
Eddie Barlow
Graham Gooch
Virender Sehwag
and others

Guys - thanks for the update on Mr CricketFan and his studies. We should always look after our own. I'll tell the Corporal to stand down the search patrol.

Mad - that seems a mighty fine list although you're wrong about Richards ....

.... he should be higher!

Based on potential and ability, yes. Based on achievement, alas no. Cruelly, it wasn't through any fault of his own, but we must let our disappointment and 'what could have been' thoughts to one side on this one, and as such I find it hard (but regretful) to place Richards anywhere near a top 7 say.

Fists - I'll say a bit more about Richards tonight.

Meanwhile, to briefly mention another South African who doesn't seem to have had a look in yet - JDizzle's one time batting coach, the late Eddie Barlow. Being a bit older than Richards, he managed to play 30 tests before the apartheid ban came in. Test average of almost 46 with 15 fifties (one every other test) and 6 centuries including 201 in an away test against Australia.

That all holds up pretty well against some of those already in the frame ....

Saeed Anwar is another plausible candidate who appears to have gone unmentioned so far. (Until now that is )

I did think of Anwar but see him as a top tenner when we do our ODI top 10 categories

1.Sunil Gavakar
2.Len Hutton
3.Virender Sehwag
4.Matthew Hayden
5.Gordon Greenidge
6.Geoffrey Boycott
7.Graeme Smith
8.Marvan Attapattu
9.Justin Langer
10.Saeed Anwar

FISTS read the 'CRICKET SECTION' thread u will see my reasoning for not being around until 3pm-4pm

You're early

interesting list cf, the only one I really disagree with on there is Atapattu, who averaged slightly below 40 (which isn't all that great), and to my memory had a very large amount of ducks (or at least failures) which isn't desirable in an opening batsman. Any particular reason you went with him?

I may very well put Richards at no 1 to be honest.

I know people say things about Shewag, but in pure talent terms he is up there with the best of all time. And his achievements aren't bad either. He makes my top 10.

It is a shame we have to restrict ourselves to post-war, as Hobbs and Sutcliffe were shoe-ins, and Trumper and Ponsford would have had decent shouts.

I'm surprised MfC rates Simpson and Lawry above Morris, I rate Morris very highly and he'd probably be very close to an all-time Australian 11.

Hutton and Gavaskar are easy inclusions.

Greenidge is another who should make it comfortably. How many have I got so far?

In no particular order for now
Richards
Shewag
Hutton
Gavaskar
Hayden
Greenidge
Morris
Boycott
Haynes
Amiss

solid against the new ball, hung around didnt get flustered at the crease, and kept things calm.

I think, if I am being consistent, I can't have Barry Richards higher than 5. As with all other players from that era of South African exclusion (Procter, Pollock, even Barlow!) I haven't put them above 4/5 due to them not playing enough Tests. To place them with the likes of Hutton and Gavaskar is a little unfair on those names, as Richards may well have gone on to have a Test career like the two of them and, listening to people who saw him bat like Guildford, it seems likely that he would have done. But I can't change my way of voting now and I must have some consistency so despite his enormous potential I can't have him as high as two or three. It's a dreadful shame that his career was cut short but I can't let potential influence me too much.

Regarding Barlow, even as a great fan I can't quite find room for him in my top 10. Looking at some of the names thrown out so far this really is a tough category. I might sneak him in at 10, but the competition is really touch for this one.

Mike, is having great hand-eye co-ordination enough to be classed as one of the most talented of all time? I'm not so sure.

It is a gift, most definitely, but I see talent as having both that and the ability to play the more technically difficult strokes - hardly something which Sehwag possesses as he stands flat footed and slashes at everything in sight.

Very good opener, top 10 yes, but not challenging the best ever, for my money.

Mike

Bobby Simpson averages well over fifty when opening the batting (about 56), and I admired Lawry for his many very fine (if dull) knocks against some great bowling attacks. Morris was slightly inconsistent after a fantastic start, and possibly faced less quality of opposition than Lawry did. He just misses out.

On reflection, Lawry is probably a tad high, so he's dropping down a couple of spots.

Bradman said Morris was the best opener he ever saw. His word of course isn't gospel.

Fists,

It is not just great hand-eye coordination, it is also fast hands, great timing and his ability to hit a long ball. Perhaps "talented" isn't the right word (as I touched on in a previous thread, the word is ill-used anyway), perhaps "freakish" would be best. But there are only 3 batsmen playing today who have the ability to make sit up and go "wow": Shewag is one of them.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Mike

Bobby Simpson averages well over fifty when opening the batting (about 56), and I admired Lawry played many very fine (if dull) knocks against some great bowling attacks. Morris was slightly inconsistent after a fantastic start, and possibly faced less quality of opposition than Lawry did. He just misses out.

On reflection, Lawry is probably a tad high, so he's dropping down a couple of spots.

I didn't know Simpson averaged that high. I may have to reconsider. Anyone here see him play?

No doubting that, I thoroughly enjoy watching him dismantle bowlers when it isn't England on the receiving end.

JDizzle wrote: Barry Richards ....
.... To place .. with the likes of Hutton and Gavaskar is a little unfair on those names, as Richards may well have gone on to have a Test career like the two of them and, listening to people who saw him bat like Guildford, it seems likely that he would have done.

JDizzle - indeed, I had that honour and that is what it was.

You use the words ''seems likely''. That is such a massive understatement. Off hand, I cannot think of any greater certainty in cricket or in life.