606v2 Greatest Test Captains Rankings

Afternoon one and all

A little quiet this morning, so now seems like a good time to commence with our top ten (in order) rankings of who we deem to be the greatest captains Test cricket has seen. As usual, we will be keeping it to post-war players only.

There are a few things to consider here, which I expect will throw up some decent debate. For example, do you see a great captain as someone like Clive Lloyd or Ricky Ponting that captained a team jam-packed with superstars that some argue had their jobs made easy for them, or do you lean toward a Stephen Fleming type character, that finds success with more limited resources.

Looking forward to your top 10's.

Thanks

1.Stephen Fleming (done a lot with hardly any resources)
2.Steve Waugh
3.Clive Lloyd
4.Ricky Ponting (would have been higher, however as soon as the greats retired he went downhill)
5.Mike brearley
6.Imran Khan
7.Allan Border
8.Michael Vaughan
9.Arjuna Ranatunga
10.M.S.Dhoni

Fists - can I just check I've got this right. You want us to name the next nine best Test captains after Benaud?

Ha, if that is how you wish to begin, then by all means...

Douglas Jardine should be in there, if only to annoy the Aussies. He found a way to curb the scoring of the greatest phenomenon to hit cricket. OK, it was not pretty; it was pretty dreadful, in fact.
But within the rules of the time, it was still legitimate and it did make Bradman - temporarily - mortal.
As for the other captains, anyone opting for Clive Lloyd - a wonderful cricketer - should remember Brearley's assessment of Lloyd - that he did little as a skipper when captaining Lancashire.
With the rules as they were - no limit on bouncers and no limit on just how FEW overs you needed to bowl in a day - practically ANYONE would have been a success in captaining the Windies sides of Lloyd's time.

Can only comment on cricket prior to 1985 so will choose a top three only:
Benaud
Brearley
Worrell

Though from everything I know about Ponting (which is not enough) he'd be right up there.

1. Richie Benaud
2. Frank Worrell
3. Mike Brearley
4. Imran Khan
5. Warwick Armstrong
6. Stephen Fleming
7. Clive Lloyd
8. Sorav Ganguly
9. Alan Border
10. Mark Taylor

Probably missed loads out, that's just off the top of my head.

Kwini, we need 10 in order for your votes to count, unfortunately. Maybe a bit of research?

Fists,
That would be very unfair and unbalanced (to coin a phrase) and I would rather withdraw from the ballot.
Can't really be objective about Teams and their leadership one has no gut feeling for; but agree that I don't think Lloyd was a great leader and everything I've heard about Ponting AND Fleming would suggest they should be rated highly.

I wonder how people feel about Intikhab as a Captain? Always seemed to attract strong opinions but seemed to get the best out of his Pakistan teams.

Not a problem, Kwini, it's just that the balance would be upset and the results a bit lopsided if not every entrant gave 10 names.

No, I agree Fists, no problem at all.
But it would be a problem if I rated people, like Waugh for instance, about whom I know nothing. Tough to believe now, but regular news on cricket could not be obtained in these "united" states until the Internet wound up. I'd rather sit it out than offer necessarily spurious ratings.

That's fine by me, mate, but feel free to make comments as and when appropriate on those listed that you do know something of

I was actually thinking of the same top 3 and order as Kwini. Same players picked by Hoggy although with a rejigging of second and third.

Hoggy - I'm pleased Lloyd made it into your top ten. I thought from your earlier comment you were going to ditch him altogether. Brearley had a point about Lloyd not setting the world on fire at Lancs. And, yes, for Tests Lloyd had a group of West Indian world beaters at his command - not only a battery of fast bowlers but also several world batting greats including Greenidge. However, it's not always easy leading a bunch of greats who often have egos to match their talents. Then add into the mix, the political infighting associated with the different West Indian islands. I suspect Lloyd at times had to combine being a diplomat and an iron ruler. Not as easy as might at first appear.

Kwini - any views on others around in the '50s and'60s? Hutton, May, Illingworth, even Close? Don't suppose you go back to Bradman in '48.

guildford,
Got to run, but much stronger on Illingworth than Hutton, May, Dexter, Cowdrey - not really sure about Close at Test level, but MJK Smith was always underrated in my mind.
And my impression from '48, when I was about 9 months old, was that the respect (perhaps a euphemism) Bradman commanded was the key attribute to his Captaincy.

K'golfer. Totally agree about Bradman and respect in 1948. He felt, that being a lot older than many of the team, they would accept him completely as leader, especially as the unruly Irish element - Fingleton, O'Reilly et al - had retired and could only give him stick from the Press box.
On that '48 tour, Neil Harvey, the baby of the team, went to one of the other players, rather than approach Bradman direct, to ask the Don for advice about continually being dismissed caught.
Via the other player, the Don's reply was: "Tell him to stop hitting the ball in the air."

Benaud
I Chappell
Worrell
Imran
Lloyd
Border
Brearley
Ranatunga
M Taylor
Ganguly

Stella,
Good point about Ian Chappell; he would have been #4 on my list.

Steve Waugh
Stephen Fleming
Sourav Ganguly
Daniel Vettori
Imran Khan
Graeme Smith
Ian Chappel
Ricky Ponting
Arjuna Ranatunga
Andrew Strauss

No Pietersen, Gregers?

Good addition of Vettori into the mix.

Vettori is a quality captain, what he has achieved is often overlooked.

KP, regardless of my personaly view of him, was an awful awful Captain!

first names that spring to mind:

Brearley
Benaud
Bradman
Imran Khan
Worrell
Waugh
Ian Chappell
Border
Lloyd
Fleming
Ranatunga
Vaughan

right that's 12, I'll have a think, whittle it down to ten, and then put them in order.

Any obvious ones I've forgotten?

Mad - some may say he had it easy (and there would be some truth in that) but Viv Richards continued Lloyd's good work and actually has a better record.

Hutton and May also have good records but are before even my time and so not properly known or appreciated.

Illingworth who won the Ashes in Oz in '70-'71 might just squeeze into the lower end of my ten.

No Ponting, MFC?

Facepalm for and by me - there are a lot of good names already but he should at least be in the mix.

No particular order at the moment but I would probably include

Benaud
Brearley
Waugh
Border
Strauss
Fleming
Imran
Worrell

I'll fling a few names out there (probably way more than 10) from those I know about:

from Aus:
Ponting
S. Waugh
Border
M. Taylor

all have to be considered. Border made Australia a force again, Taylor took them to the top of the world, Waugh revolutionised the way cricket was played and Ponting of course is statistically the best of all time. Then there's Benaud whoom everyone raves about, but I wasn't around at the time so hard to judge. And of course Armstrong and Bradman. Ian Chappell also.

From England
Hussain
Brearley
Jardine
Strauss

Funnily enough I don't rate Vaughan that highly. I think most of his tactics were actually from Fletcher. Hussain was to England what Border was to Australia, Brearley was a genuine tactical genius, Jardine did to an extent stop Bradman, and Strauss has taken them to the top of the world, and is IMO the best man-manager I have seen at that level.

West Indies had Lloyd, Richards, Worrell.

Imran Khan was a very good captain, who of course won a World Cup.

Fleming rightfully gets a lot of credit for constantly over-achieving.

Ranatunga and Ganguly I have a profound dislike of, but there's no doubting their achivements (although I think Ganguly for example could have done a lot more had he been more humble - e.g. he refused to accept that India's fielding had to improve, mainly because he didn't believe he was a bad fielder).

A lot of strong candidates. A provisional list would be:
1) Ponting: 2 WCs without losing, and ashes whitewash, 16 test wins in a row including a few without Warne and McGrath. Probably the best captain ever of great players. Went on too long, but for what he achieved (and also if I'm honest because I think he gets a raw deal) he gets the top spot.
2) S. Waugh: has a lot to do with how cricket is being played currently.
3) M. Brearley: a genuine genius tactician.
4) Lloyd: maybe he was fortunate with his team, but would others have had the same effect? We can never know...
5) R. Benaud: based on others appraisals.
6) Worrell: ditto.
7) Fleming: did everything really well and managed to stay one of the undoubted good guys.
8) Border
9) Hussain
10) (could end up considerably higher) Strauss.

Let me explain my reasoning a bit. I have omitted Taylor and Vaughan, in favour for those who started the ascendencies (Border and Hussain) and those who finished the work (S. Waugh, Ponting and Strauss). I believe Vaughan and Taylor had the easier job. They inherited sides "on the up" with the personel to reach the top. Their job was essentially one of continuity. Once you've reached the top, all high level sportspeople will tell you how hard it is to stay there; S. Waugh, Ponting and I believe Strauss not only did (and will do) this, but further improved their sides. In particular, Ponting took on arguably the best side in the history of the sport (surely the only way was down?) and made them even better.

mild criticism of Mike here when listing Ponting's achievements: we're talking test captains, so WC frankly shouldn't come into it

I must say personally I've never rated Ponting that highly as a captain (either during Aus's dominance or when they were on the slide), my main reason being that Australia had very few "backs against the walls" wins under his captaincy. For me he lacked that ability to inspire his team to turn the game around. You could argue (with some justification) that they had to do this incredibly rarely due to how great they were, and I'm sure they're some examples of it, but it's the way I see it.

to guildford: while Illingworth did very well on that tour, I don't think it's enough to get him into the top ten personally, but your names deserve a shout. One other name I'd mention (who has already been so) is Jardine. Love him or hate him, there's no denying the genius of his tactics, and his ruthlessness in carrying them out.

I can't provide an opinion about Clive Loyd as I never saw him play.

So the captains I have seen was border, Imram Kahn, Fleming, Waugh, Ponting, Dhoni, Cronje, Smith, Shaun Pollock, Hussain, Strauss, Richardson, Ranatunga, Ganguly, Taylor, Vaughan, Daniel Vettori plus a few I may have forgotten about.

Of those the following have impressed me.

Imran Kahn, Greame Smith, Hansie Cronje, Stephen Fleming, MS Dhoni, Mark Taylor, Steve Waugh, Andrew Strauss.

Of those I would put

1. Stephen Fleming
2. Hansie Cronje ( forget his indiscretion, he was a great captain.)
3. Steve waugh, Steely reserve and better catain than Ponting ever was.
4. Greame Smith, becoming captain at 22 with so many senior players meant he had to lead through example and succeeded with flying colours.
5. MS Dhoni, Gary Kirsten has the utmost respect for him and together they heralded a golden era for India.
6. Imran Kahn, has been a while but I remember what he meant to the Pakistani people.
7. Andrew Strauss, since his captaincy England seems to have gotten a mental edge they lacked for some time.
8. Mark Taylor, I have always liked him.
9. Alan border, only saw the end of his career, but he was well repected and still is.
10. Richie Benaud, never saw him play but 30 million supporters and fans can't be wrong.

well i can only comment about the captains i have watched
steven fleming is highly over rated captain dont forget that during his time kiwis had very good players like cairns,nash,astle,mcmilan,richrdson,parore,shne bond etc
and a very very athletic side but to me he hasnot done enough in terms of results so

1.mark taylor-great thinker
2.steve waugh-great motivator , always played real skipper's innings's
3.hansi cronje
4. ganguly- turned new players into greats and can stand up to any one
5.ranatunga
6.hussain
7.darren sammy- working with real mimited resources
8.mahela jayawardena
9.Vettori- working with real limited resources
10.ms dhoni - his test as a test skipper would come soon , he is a brilliant and best ever ODI skipper for india and needs to work on getting maximum out of his players like ganguly

right then, the list.
1. Steve Waugh - turned Australia from being the best in the world to being nigh on unbeatable, and also arguably changed the way cricket is played forever.
2. Richie Benaud - a brilliant thinker.
3. Frank Worrell - the man under whose captaincy the WI dominance begun.
4. Mike Brearley - tactical genius, always able to get the very best out of his team.
5. Imran Khan - Pakistan's greatest skipper. The rest of the team always seemed to play that little bit better under him.
6. Allan Border - started the journey that took Australia to the best team cricket has ever seen (IMVHO).
7. Stephen Fleming - a great tactician, NZ always seemed more than the sum of their parts under his guidance.
8. Clive Lloyd - similar to Waugh really, took on a very good team, made them into one of the all-time great ones.
9. Nasser Hussain - took on the England job when they were at their very lowest, and started them on their journey to where they are today.
10. Don Bradman - more of a "lead by example" type, but inspired huge respect from his fellow players and going through a tour unbeaten is a remarkable feat.

Must say I am very surprised that a fair few are totally omitting Ponting, I think he will be inside my top 5, for sure, much for the reasons stated by MIke.

ive edited mine so Michael Vaughan is in there for graeme smith. Vaughan was a fantastic test captain.

I doubt Punter would make my top 30 captains list.Great player yes but as a captain,I am sorry even Clarke is better.

@vaughan was an average test captain , if he has not succeded hussain he would have been found out, just like he did in odi cricket as hissain failed to develop a core group of players in ODI's

Ponting IMO was a good lead from the front captain. Not a top tenner though. Too many strange decisions, especially in 2005.

Here goes.

1. Benaud
2. Brearley*
3. Worrell
4. Lloyd
5. Waugh
6. Fleming
7. Imran Khan
8. Bradman
9. Richards
10. Border

* Brearley was mentioned by Mad and Mike as a tactical genius. That is totally correct. In addition, it should be noted that he was a very fine man manager as shown by Botham's return to the ranks under Brearley with devastating effect.

Happy with the top half of my list but not so sure about the rest. Too many good skippers not there. Particularly Aussies - Ian Chappell, Ponting and Taylor. Vettori also unlucky to miss out as is Illingworth. Others from yesteryear - such as Hutton and May - don't get in far more because of my ignorance than any failings on their part.

Despite the abilities of everyone mentioned above, you might still be better off with another - Ali Bacher, captain of South Africa only for their '69 -'70 series against Australia. He was fortunate enough to inherit a team containing all time world greats such as Richards, Barlow, the two Pollocks, Procter and Lindsay. He then successfully pushed his luck further by winning the toss every time in the four match series as South Africa trounced the Aussies 4-0 to give him a 100% all time winning Test record!

Ha, nice few facts there, Guildford. A good list, but again I must reiterate my belief that Punter deserves a place somewhere amongst the ten. You do however qualify his non-inclusion well enough in your middle paragraph, some very good captains did have to miss out.

Fists of Fury wrote:Must say I am very surprised that a fair few are totally omitting Ponting, I think he will be inside my top 5, for sure, much for the reasons stated by MIke.

I am not surprised. This board is England dominated and Ponting has had particularly bad press in England. Even someone like MfC seems to have been influenced, Ponting has done everything Bradman did and more.

I suspect for most it comes down to the fact they don't like him (mainly because he was so successful) - in time he will earn a grudging respect but as of now it is still too soon.

He's long since earned that grudging respect from me, Mike, and now it is purely respect, given that his days of commandeering a wrecking ball with England's name on it are over!

OK, As I was asked to offer ten Captains, and with the benefit of a little light reading, I shall offer:

1).Benaud
2).Brearley
3).Worrell
My original three. Plus:
4).Ian Chappell
5).Ponting
6).Imran Khan
7).Kapil Dev
8).Border
9).Illingworth
10).Fleming
Bench: Ali Bacher

I asked earlier about Intikhab. Still not sure about him; quite well respected when he was skippering a series of disparate Pakistani Teams. Obviously not without his share of controversy later on.
And very good point, guildford, about Ali Bacher, almost a Brearley-like figure.
Big omission obviously is Waugh; no apologies, he just fell in to my personal web-less twilight zone.
Lastly, how good is Graeme Smith? Looks a pretty good leader from afar.

Mike Selig wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Must say I am very surprised that a fair few are totally omitting Ponting, I think he will be inside my top 5, for sure, much for the reasons stated by MIke.

I am not surprised. This board is England dominated and Ponting has had particularly bad press in England. Even someone like MfC seems to have been influenced, Ponting has done everything Bradman did and more.

I suspect for most it comes down to the fact they don't like him (mainly because he was so successful) - in time he will earn a grudging respect but as of now it is still too soon.

I'm English and have a lot of respect for Punter but IMO he was a good leader but not one of the best captains off all time. Nobody has mention Viv Richards, who has a fantastic record I suspect for the same reasons.

Hi Stella - tend to agree with you about Punter although I was following Test cricket closer in the '70s and '80s than when he was captaining.

I did actually mention Richards to Mad and included him at number 9 in my own list. Don't worry about it - give a YES vote to Greenidge and we'll call it quits!

kwinigolfer wrote:

I asked earlier about Intikhab. Still not sure about him; quite well respected when he was skippering a series of disparate Pakistani Teams. Obviously not without his share of controversy later on.

Intikhab wasn't a great Test player (certainly in terms of stats and my own memories) but had a lot of charisma. That undoubtedly helped him as a captain although he's still some way off my Top Ten list here. Your comment about ''disparate Pakistani Teams'' is very valid. In his autobiography, Mushtaq Mohammad was critical of Intikhab for hogging the bowling when Mushy thought he should be on and giving it a twirl.

Inti is still well remembered at Surrey and spoken of fondly - more, I think, for his personality than performances.

I'll always rate Imran as the best ever captain for the simple reason that's he's the only man who's ever got Pakistan playing as a team, united behind one man, for this alone he deserves the Nobel Peace Prize.

Ha, you're probably right there reallyreal!! That is some achievement!

when will these be counted?

I'll likely give it til after Christmas now, cf.

ok fair enough

TBH without a great bowling attack it is hard to be a good captain.

Personally I feel that Mike Brearley is seriously over-rated. While most players (not Phil Edmonds) who played under him are fans I have always felt his record as a test captain does not stand any sort of scrutiny. He avoided the Windies entirely for instance.

As to Cronje, sorry Biltong, but I cannot disregard his "indiscretion".

For me:

Jardine
Benaud
Worrell
Illingworth
Chappell, Ian
Imran
Ganguly
Fleming
Vaughan

I leave the 10th spot clear - to see how Strauss and Dhoni go in the future. This time last year Dhoni would have been in, but his captaincy this summer was dreadful

LondonTiger wrote:TBH without a great bowling attack it is hard to be a good captain.

Personally I feel that Mike Brearley is seriously over-rated. While most players (not Phil Edmonds) who played under him are fans I have always felt his record as a test captain does not stand any sort of scrutiny. He avoided the Windies entirely for instance.

As to Cronje, sorry Biltong, but I cannot disregard his "indiscretion".

For me:

Jardine
Benaud
Worrell
Illingworth
Chappell, Ian
Imran
Ganguly
Fleming
Vaughan

I leave the 10th spot clear - to see how Strauss and Dhoni go in the future. This time last year Dhoni would have been in, but his captaincy this summer was dreadful

Tiger, I can accept that, but you need to have at least one South African in there for a "real" international flavor.