England EPS

First topic message reminder :

Is there a new England squad announced? If there is...when?

Including replacing the retirees who would you change....

Foden, Armitage, Cueto, Banahan, Ahston,
Tuilagi, Tindall, Hape,
Wilkinson, Flood
Youngs, Wigglesworth, Simpson,
Easter, Wood, Moody, Haskell, Croft,
Shaw, Lawes, Deacon,
Wilson, Stevens, Sheridan, Corbisiero, Cole,
Thompson, Mears, Hartley

I think i'd like to see the following start the first game of the 6n's

1 Corbs
2 Hartley - His place is not set in stone!
3 Cole
4 Deacon
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Easter

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

There seems to be a lot of calls for Garvey at SR....(havent seen a huge amount so will have to go with other peoples testimonials...

I like that team GF. I'd like to see the likes of Garvey, Farrell on the bench.

Tuilagi wasnt great at 12 for Tigers, lines and support were all over the place and gave Flood no go to ball. I think he could end up there but needs some serious work. I'd go with Barritt as hes the form 12 in the prem and offers us stability.

Im not sure Tuilagis uncertainty at 12 should be an issue when he clearly will be starting 13.
Hes comfortably been the best England player sicne he made his debut, it would be bonkers to not pick a guy who has proven he can cut it and has bags of potential to improve. Along with Ashton his place in the side is a given.
Outside him Barrit may have been puitting his hand up butthere has to be a worry that teh apiring would look a little "Noon Tindall" in its makeup. You could argue for a Farrell/Flood interchanging combination at 10/12 but thats never really worked that well when it was Wilko Flood doing it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think i'd like to see the following start the first game of the 6n's

1 Corbs
2 Hartley - His place is not set in stone!
3 Cole
4 Deacon
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Easter

9 Youngs
10 Flood
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Foden

That is, player for player, the exact team I would pick if I was England coach

Tuilagi wasnt great at 12 for Tigers, lines and support were all over the place and gave Flood no go to ball. I think he could end up there but needs some serious work. I'd go with Barritt as hes the form 12 in the prem and offers us stability..

Manu was moved to 12 so Smith could be brought into the midfield as he is a real strength in defence (tackles like a blindside). It didn't work in attack and Tigers looked far more dangerous when Twelvetrees came on at 12 and Manu stepped out to 13 (great run when he went through Rougerie). I think the experiment with Manu at 12 may end there (fingers crossed).

Outside him Barrit may have been puitting his hand up butthere has to be a worry that teh apiring would look a little "Noon Tindall" in its makeup

I'd disagree. I might appear a bit boshy but Manu has better hands than either Tindall or Noon where as Barritt played some of his earlier career at 10 and has a suprisingly good footballing game as well as soft hands. Sarries just don't often give him chance to display those skills. For me they have to be the midfield partnership.

Squad of;
Props; Sheridan/Mullan (whichever is fit at the time), Corbs, Cole, Wilson
Hooker; Hartley, Gray, Webber
Lock; Robson, Lawes, Attwood/Garvey, Parling (if not recovered Deacon)
Backrow; Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Seymour, Easter
SH; Youngs, Care, Simpson
FH; Flood, Hodgson, Burns
Centre; Manu, Barritt, Trinder, Twelvetrees/JTH
Wing; Ashton, Sharples, Short
FB; Foden, Brown/Morgan

Where I've used /'s I'd wait to see who was in the best form come the end of January. With a provisional team of;

Corbs, Gray, Cole
Lawes, Robson/Parling
Croft, Robshaw, Easter (sigh)
Youngs, Flood
Barritt, Manu
Short, Ashton, Foden

Bench; Wilson, Hartley, Attwood/Garvey, Wood, Care, Hodgson, Sharples.

Though the team could really do with a utility player stepping up, Johnny May would be ideal if he could get into some good form.

Agree with that Sam, a midfield of Barritt/Manu could really work with Flood pulling the strings.

Barritt seems to get a bad rap for not making blistering runs but he's a clever player and often takes the contact for the team. His distribution surpasses Tindall and his defence is outstanding, he'd be the lynchpin with serious running talent outside of him.

Farrell may come through here but I don't think he's ready yet. He does deserve a squad slot though and would provide decent 10/12 cover.

Really like the look of May, boys a bit special and deserves at least a run out in the Saxons outside 36 maybe?

Farrell may come through here but I don't think he's ready yet. He does deserve a squad slot though and would provide decent 10/12 cover.

I'd have Farrell with the Saxons and Sarries. He'll get more game time that way and I think he has the best mentor for his weaknesses week in wee out in Hodgson. Don't see the benefit in promoting him to the first team just yet, it's game time he needs, time to work on those passing deficiencies.

So Barrit now officialy > Athony "younger than youd think" Allen?

If he does have this hidden kicking game Ill concede it could be a good combination with Tuillagi. I suspect with Farrel coaching they will be looking at a player who can take contact at 12.

Youngs Flood Ashton Foden are pretty much givens, which leaves one wing spot open in the backs if the "606" concencous gets its way.

Cant see Hartley or Cole not starting in the front row, and Lawes in the second. Aside form that the packs pretty open. I think if Easter is retained it may be more to do with trying to keep some experience/continuity in the side than him being the worlds greatest players.

8 is a problem position for England. There is no outstanding candidate to replace Easter at present.

Theres no outstanding candidate to be Nick Easter either

He didnt make Johnsons first EPS either mind.

I still like Waldroum, he's an effective ball carrier and has a good offloading game. Past him though there's only really Easter playing good rugby.

The Hutt is a possibility still, but not a people pleaser. Hes still young enough to make the world cup ( hed only be 32) and does make the hard yards, no question there.
My problems with him would be :
Is he likely to get any better?
His all round game

Aside from playing Robshaw at 8, the chap at Saints, and Narraway what are the other realistic options? Lets assume that Ben Morgan doesnt sudenly decide to move home next week?

Interestingly we could see Jamie Gibson getting some extended gametime at 8 for London irish over the next couple of months. He has been outstanding so far this season at 7, and is a very intelligent player.

If he plays 8 and does well, then he could be a bolter for a shot there in the summer. I think the 6 Nations might come around a little to soon for him.

Morgan is looking better everytime I see him, surely the RFU can have a little word in his ear, he is English after all. It's not even like the normal cases of an easier route to Int rugby as Falatau is looking well settled for Wales.

Narraway hasn't been firing this season (or last really) and can't be much younger than Waldroum. I know we have this whole EQ issue but he's the better player.

Narraway looked like a potentially classy 8 a few years ago, but hasn't developed.
Haskell has always looked what he is - a blindside who can cover 8 but isn't natural with the ball at his feet.
Fearns and Morgan (if he decides to be English) are unproven potential. Guest would be the same.

Is Robshaw a possibility, or is he better on the flanks?

Crane is the closest to Easter in style, but is missing for the season.

Waldrom - An aging NZ reject

Id forgotten about Fearns. Half the inetrnet was ijn love with him last year.
Is he injured or just unable to get in the Bath side? Isnt he more a flanker anyway?

So Barrit now officialy > Athony "younger than youd think" Allen?

Unknown, you can't judge Allen's form when he's out injured.

Interestingly we could see Jamie Gibson getting some extended gametime at 8 for London irish over the next couple of months. He has been outstanding so far this season at 7, and is a very intelligent player.

A talented youngster who has already been part of the Saxons set up. Kvesic impressed me when playing 8 vs Bath as well. As with Fearns they need to make those positions there own and shine in them though.

Honestly, I think England are going to be fine in terms of 8s in the next 12 months or so. You do have options, the problem is many are either injured or it is a little too soon for them. Someone will put their hand up in the next while, so for now you should focus on a good 6/7 partnership (my vote is Wood and Robshaw).

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Is he injured or just unable to get in the Bath side? Isnt he more a flanker anyway?

He's injured at the moment I do believe

I think the back row is quite simple.

6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Easter

Wood is the breakdown dog...and is a tough nut, fit...and also a lineout option.
Robshaw again is physical...but also offers a 100% work rate...
Easter...has good hands, experienced older head, Makes the hard yards..

Croft played extremely well at the weekend; was brilliant in the lineout, hounded the opposition midfield and back three, disrupted the rucks fairly well and made a couple of decent runs as well. Bit more of that and the selection will become more of a headache for the coaches.

I think it will be a personal battle between Croft and Wood at 6.

Seems likely Rory.

On one hand we have the "man in" whos proven he can cut it for several years after being given a chance at an early age, one of the few players to come out the WC with any credit and a couple of Lions tries to his name. Englands fastest forward by quite some way and one of the best backrow lineout options in the game.
On other hand we have Wood who offers a lot of the same but a wider all round game and apparently loved by the coaches and touted as a future captain ( like Haskell was)

Its hard to imagine neither getting in the side.

I'd go with:

Corbisero, Gray/Hartley, Cole
Garvey, Lawes,
Wood/Croft, Robshaw, Easter
Youngs, Flood
Barritt, Manu
Cueto, Ashton, Foden

Bench; Wilson, Hartley/Gray, Attwood, Wood/Croft, Care, Hodgson, Sharples/Short/Strettle.

Lots of experienced players have retired, which is good for English rugby but we need to keep some experience in there for the 6 Nations. Nobody has made a convincing case for replacing Easter yet, so leave him in until Haskell and Fearns are ready to really challenge.

On the wing Sharples and Short both impressed last year, but have struggled for form this season. Therefore I'd leave Cueto in for one more tournament, on the basis of experience again.

At IC it is very difficult to argue that Barritt hasn't earnt his chance. However, I hope Twelvetrees or Farrell will eventually become first choice. Similarly I hope that Burns will push Flood eventually. Trinder and JJ mean that we have excellent emerging strength at OC.

I reckon the side above is better than any England side for years, and if it is well coached (which I think it will be) then we should be competitive. There is real strength of depth developing in many positions too.

"Therefore I'd leave Cueto in for one more tournament, on the basis of experience again."

This is the only thing i'd disagree with there Dave.

Cueto was partially used to aid Foden and Ashton due to their inexperience however now they both have experience at the back...so Cueto should be picked on ability...and he hasnt scored the tries required of a wing...

Thus i would use this to have another look at Ojo or Benjamin or Monye or Strettle or even Banahan (actually playing on the wing....) etc etc

Or Wade...

AGree ther GF, Cueto has been a good player but doesn't offer enough in attack to warrant a place.

I'd have previously championed Sharples but he's been pretty poor this season. I like the look of Ojo, Benjamin (seems to always shine for Saxons) and possibly as an outside shot Wade or Short.

Strettle has went backwards at an alarming rate over the last 2/3 season, the boy was electric a few years back but just seems to have lost his mojo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote: Strettle has went backwards at an alarming rate over the last 2/3 season, the boy was electric a few years back but just seems to have lost his mojo.

Agree with that. He was a great player. His run against Wales in the 2008 6N still gets me going when I see it!

I'd give one of Wade, Ojo or Benjamin a chance on the wing in the 6N. Would've loved to have seen Sharples there last season with the form he was on. So far, he's failed to re-ignite.

Think Ojo blew his chance in NZ a few years ago. Benjamin, Short or even little Christian Wade would be good. None of them cover what Cueto and later Armitage were included on the wing for though, kicking ability. Cueto has a reliable left boot. If Barritt can kick from 12 that might be less of an issue though.

Armitage , and Monye would be the obvious heirs to the Cueto role if the new coaches decide they want to stick with the "second full back"
Both have bags of ability and have proven in the past they can perform at the highest levels. Armitage was one of the few to have a decent world cup, all thats holding him back is his temper. Both are plenty young enough to be around at the next world cup.

How about JJ at 22? He can cover 13 and wing and means we can play the second fulback (probably Armitage or Monye and then in the end sharples) and then if needed bring on another danger winger/centre to open the game up.

That is of course if he comes back well from his injury.

I'd have Wade in the squad pushing Ashton, i'd like to see at least two blokes fighting for every position and Ashton/Wade battling for that wing jersey could be epic.

Also have to say I like the look of the Barrit/Tuilagi combo, both solid defenders but have a much more rounded skillset then the centres we usually play.

If Barritt takes to the international stage like Manu has then we could be in for a treat!

Lastly I think we'll see the backrow alternating quite a bit but i'd have something like:

6.Croft/Wood
7.Robshaw/Wallace
8.Easter

Wood has had a mixed couple of weeks and yes he's taken to internationals well, but Robshaw should already have been in there before Wood even came along.

I'd start with Crofty and see how he works along side an actual inform and fit no7, something he rarely had in the WC. If Robshaw is even half as good for the Rose as he is for Quins then Croft will have a lot more time to play to his own strengths and hopefully Easter will improve for having his club compatriot there.

This mornings Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8954587/Englands-2015-Rugby-World-Cup-hopefuls-revealed.html


The next generation:

Joe Marler
Dylan Hartley
Dan Cole
Dave Attwood
Courtney Lawes
Tom Croft
Tom Wood
James Haskell
Ben Youngs
Toby Flood
Chris Ashton
Manu Tuilagi
Owen Farrell
Charlie Sharples
Ben Foden


No great surprises there, maybe Marler over Corbisiero

Right but thats not a suggestion for the team now, but what youd look to shape as a team for 4 years.

Most of that picks itself
Marler isnt ready as a starter yet, but in a year or so he should be pushing Corbs.
Haskell isnt available currently, but stil has the potential to go on to be a true number 8 if he can spen time playing their and soirt out his schoolboy mentality then come back to England. In soem ways hes been a model professional, and he has assests. A truely frustarting player but one that no question ( like Cipriani) whocever is coach would look at if the returned to England.
Croft and Wood...the only problem there is are both too similar? What they would do though ( along with Haskell) is make up for a lack of really strong lineout skills in the second row. It would be a terryifyingly mobile group of 5 players. Robshaw is of course the other obvious contender right now. By that time Croft should be an experienced international with two Lions tours and world cup and a fully paid up member of the 50 cap cavalry.
Farrel at 13? and Tuilagi at 12? Could just as easily be the other way round, would depend on how the coaches want the side to play.
Sharples would be contending that role with Monye and Armitage.

Certainly a far more sensible suggestion than some of the stuff teat came form Stephen Jones the other day.
Of course the 15 that actuallys tarts the world cup will probably look nothing like that for all sorts of reasons. But a coach coming in would want to have a rough idea of the shape of their team and the people they have available to gtake on or grow into those roles. There will of course be injuries losses of form and new players emerging and quite possibly some Plan B moments.
The side starting the 6 nations is unlikely to look radically different to that, certainly Hartley Cole Lawes Croft Youngs Flood Tuillagi Ashton and Foden are pretty much givens, with all but Haskell possibles

From what i've seen Darren Dawidiuk of Gloucester looks like a decent hooker. Could he pushing for a spot in a few years?

Yes, he has a chance. There are a few young hookers around his age though, like George, Gray, Haywood (a real proposect I'd say) and then players like Spurling, Britton (also at Gloucester) and Nathan Morris at Wasps. Not too mention Tom Lindsay at Wasps who, if he can gain some lineout consistency is a potential monster.

Dave...

Haywood and Lindsay are two that i agree are potential real quality prospects. Haywood has impressed me when he has played...and Lindsay has real physical presence.

Interesting though....people were talking about Hartley saying he hasnt had a break for several years....maybe his lack of form is due to fatigue something Ben Cohen suggested he suffered from after constant rugby....

Maybe he just needs a break...

I actually think Heywood is fast turning into a genuine threat to Hartley's starting berth at Saints. If Hartley doesn't want to start taking it a bit easier then I reckon he needs to buck his form up by the start of next season.

I'd have thought Lindsey must benefit from Thompson's retirement. Gray played very well in Toulouse, all in the the future looks pretty good at hooker.

I'd go with:

1. Corbisiero (though if his scrummaging is as bad as it has been when i've seen him this year, tempted by Marler - it seemed to be a strength of Corbs until recently)
2. Gray - completely unconvinced by Hartley
3. Cole - Not perfect, but the best we have, for now (would like to see PDJ kick on)
4. Robson - deserves a chance, superb workrate, bit like a younger Palmer
5. Garvey - massive, and from what i've seen an excellent ball carrying lock, just what we need
6. Wood - good leadership, workrate and toughness
7. Robshaw - ditto
8. Waldrom - with a heavy heart until Grey, Fearns, Kvesic, Morgan etc etc step up and show true form. I think he's doing a lot more than Easter right now, gutted Haskell is injured.
9. Care - better game management than Youngs at the moment but either would be fine for me. Good argument for Youngs to play alongside Flood.
10. Flood - stonewall pick for me
11. Short/Sharples - I really rate Short, very powerful and pretty rapid. But would be happy with Sharples as well, and Short doesn't score a lot. Otherwise there are people lining up - Strettle/Monye etc.
12. Barritt - dearth of alternatives
13. Manu
14. Ashton
15. Brown - His form has been immense and Foden can cover plenty of positions form the bench.

Probably not a popular choice for the first team but it has, for my mind, the blend of power, dynamism and aggression in the pack with a load of players with brilliant workrates. Dropping Lawes would be a big call, but his carrying has been very average and his technique awful. He needs to fix this before anything else.

Would love to see Lindsay sort his arrows out a everything else looks pretty tidy.

Just out of Curiosity the Telegraph have listed what they think could be the World Cup 2015 team.....im not convinced personally...

1 Joe Marler
2 Dylan Hartley
3 Dan Cole
4 Dave Attwood
5 Courtney Lawes
6 Tom Croft
7 Tom Wood
8 James Haskell

9 Ben Youngs
10 Toby Flood
11 Chris Ashton
12 Manu Tuilagi
13 Owen Farrell
14 Charlie Sharples
15 Ben Foden

That backrow will just have the same problems that every other previous backrow for England has had lately..

Also why play both Manu and Farrell out of position?

Also why play both Manu and Farrell out of position?.

+1

That backrow will just have the same problems that every other previous backrow for England has had lately..

It will have dodgey ball control at the back of the scrum which will be a worry as Marler is likely to be slaughtered by any decent tighthead. I'm sure English posters have told you before that Croft and Wood are in no way similar other than being tall and good in the lineout.

It isn't so much that they are similar, but I don't think they would actually perform well as a combination. Haskell I think is a blindside flanker more than anything also.

Marler's scrummaging is coming on nicely from what I've seen, and he's got almost another 4 years to improve it. Personally I think he's going to develop into a top quality loose-head, and I'd expect by this time next year he'll be challenging for the starting shirt.

Although Alex Waller looks to be another highly promising Saints youngster who is getting closer and closer to a starting berth and may provide him and Corbisero with some serious competition.

It's the same with Haslell, there's no reason his ball control won't improve once he's playing 8 regularly. By 2015 though I'd expect players like Wallace, Kvesic, Gibson and Fearns to have displaced some of the current backrows.

and he's got almost another 4 years to improve it

No he hasn't. He's got until after the January HEC games. Then the EPS is decided. He doesn't get in then and both Corbs and Mullan do and both play well and Marler could genuinely struggle to get a look in anytime soon.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

and he's got almost another 4 years to improve it

No he hasn't. He's got until after the January HEC games. Then the EPS is decided. He doesn't get in then and both Corbs and Mullan do and both play well and Marler could genuinely struggle to get a look in anytime soon.

But this was a suggested EPS for the next world cup

But this was a suggested EPS for the next world cup.

Ah my mistake, apologies.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

But this was a suggested EPS for the next world cup.

Ah my mistake, apologies.

Hang on no its not, wrong topic ( second time today)

Youre right then
I think Marler will get called up, butI agree that starting is a step too far right now