Ospreys 13-16 Saracens - Post Match Discussion...

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Ospreys (6) 13
Try: Gough Con: Biggar Pens: Biggar 2

Saracens (16) 16
Try: Joubert Con: Farrell Pens: Farrell 3

A couple of errors cost us. To concede a try from a charge down was very frustrating. We dominated territory and possession and some errors at crucial moments cost us. But full credit to Saracens, they have an outstanding defence and we couldn't break it down.

I can't fault the effort and attitude of the players, they went for it and didn't leave anything on the field. We couldn't ask much more than to tidy up some bits of accuracy."

maestegmafia wrote:Saracens are a good team, no disrespect to them.

They certainly are.

However, you've been showing them a lack of respect all week on here. I think you owe beshocked an apology

Well done Sarries.

Why , was Beshocked playing on Saturday ? You going to demand an apology from all the English posters slagging them off too ?

I wasn't "demanding" an apology. Just thought it might be a nice idea for 606v2 peace.

I think Biggar going off made a big difference. He had an awful game. He doesn't read what he sees, he sticks to set
Moves whether they are working or not. He is not a good communicator and we really suffered due to his ineptness to read the opposition defence.

I thought the boys competed well at the breakdown and set piece. Adam jones was talking to the referee, presumably about the way he was adjudicating the scrum a great deal.

It was hard to tell from the stands why the referee was blaming Saracens three or four re sets in a row. Then finally penalising the Ospreys by awarding a penalty against us. This happened for six or seven scrums from what i remember. That displayed a huge lack of confidence on his behalf, which resulted in players becoming aggravated.

It was disappointing to spend over two hour in the stadium watching scrums collapsing or turning into free for all punch ups, constantly started by Matt Stevens, that seemed to consume the game time.

Once saracens had scored the try from hodgeson's charge down, Saracens did little other than try to waste game time. A very professional disposition by them that I cast no blame for, it was the intelligent thing to do. But Biggar and then foutuali when he came on just kicked the ball back to Saracens.

How on earth do the two tacticians in the ospreys team seriously think they might win a game with no ball against a side already leading by ten points.

Biggar left giving Matthew Morgan, a lightweight and inexperienced yet skillfull deputy, just four minutes to make a difference. He couldn't do it, we all hoped but sincerely doubted he could. The difference was that Morgan asked for the ball all the time, he moved the ball around and didn't freely kick it straight back to Saracens.

The ospreys persistence with Biggar, after watching last nights performance, really worries me. He is not intelligent enough, skillfull enough to read a good defence and make holes. He is impatient and he blames those around him taking little responsibility to himself.

The ospreys are now highly unlikely to qualify from the group and rightly so. With such a tactically inept performance from their playmaker at flyhalf they don't deserve to.

Yet again absolutely no credit whatsoever given to the opposition by maesteg.

So this is you contributing to peace on 606 is it ?

Kinda.

I just wonder about maesteg's one-eyed view on things that's all.

At least he is contributing , you bring nothing to the table, do you actually support a club team ?

What's supporting a club side got to do with anything? I take an interest in rugby, but don't support any particular club side.

Come on old son, lighten up or you'll get us both in trouble

Well done Sarries a great win & particularly good defence when considering they played a quarter of the game with 14 men.
To put the win in perspective Ospreys haven't been beaten at home in HC for 6 years/17 games!
I don't think many teams in the HC could have done that.

I do think that Biggar hasn't really progressed as well as I thought he would & Morgan looks a good prospect to me & looks to have that spark which Biggar lacks.

Trev I agree completely. Out of the two fixtures home and away Saracens were the better team.

The ospreys have great potential but as you stated too, Biggar is chastising the hard work done.

No complaints at the result from me. A lot of complaints by me though about the Ospreys flyhalf.

maestegmafia wrote:I think Biggar going off made a big difference. He had an awful game. He doesn't read what he sees, he sticks to set
Moves whether they are working or not. He is not a good communicator and we really suffered due to his ineptness to read the opposition defence.

I thought the boys competed well at the breakdown and set piece. Adam jones was talking to the referee, presumably about the way he was adjudicating the scrum a great deal.

It was hard to tell from the stands why the referee was blaming Saracens three or four re sets in a row. Then finally penalising the Ospreys by awarding a penalty against us. This happened for six or seven scrums from what i remember. That displayed a huge lack of confidence on his behalf, which resulted in players becoming aggravated.

It was disappointing to spend over two hour in the stadium watching scrums collapsing or turning into free for all punch ups, constantly started by Matt Stevens, that seemed to consume the game time.

Once saracens had scored the try from hodgeson's charge down, Saracens did little other than try to waste game time. A very professional disposition by them that I cast no blame for, it was the intelligent thing to do. But Biggar and then foutuali when he came on just kicked the ball back to Saracens.

How on earth do the two tacticians in the ospreys team seriously think they might win a game with no ball against a side already leading by ten points.

Biggar left giving Matthew Morgan, a lightweight and inexperienced yet skillfull deputy, just four minutes to make a difference. He couldn't do it, we all hoped but sincerely doubted he could. The difference was that Morgan asked for the ball all the time, he moved the ball around and didn't freely kick it straight back to Saracens.

The ospreys persistence with Biggar, after watching last nights performance, really worries me. He is not intelligent enough, skillfull enough to read a good defence and make holes. He is impatient and he blames those around him taking little responsibility to himself.

The ospreys are now highly unlikely to qualify from the group and rightly so. With such a tactically inept performance from their playmaker at flyhalf they don't deserve to.

I think that's a fantastic post Maesteg.

I agree with Biggar having a bad game, what worries me is he seems to telegraph moves and has an awful habit of throwing blind passes as he recieves the ball, and we will really come a cropper for it at some point. He lies too flat, and an on rushing defense causes him a lot of problems. The other problem is we seem to have no other plan than route one, if we can't smash our way through we run out of ideas.

Please remember though Biggar is STILL only 22, having had his birthday in October, so every time an Ospreys fan has a pop at him they need to remember they are having a pop at a young kid, most 22 year olds are just getting their first starts in the LV Cup and playing in the Welsh Premiership. He will not be consistent for many years but has shown enough glimpses of potential for us to see he could be a quality player.

Though I do agree Matthew Morgan looks a more useful attacking player for us.

Cheers Alyn,

Thing with Biggar is his lack of vision and that cant be coached. Though if he learnt to be more patient, not trying to force things so much then maybe he could fulfil the glimpses of potential.

He put the team under far too much pressure.

I spent much of the game keenly watching the Ospreys halfbacks movements and reactions. Like with Dan Parks, a similar type of player, what you see on TV looks a lot better than what you see on the pitch.

The Blues forwards had the measure of Saracens in 80% of the match. The difference was the orchestration of play with possession and Charlie Hodgson was nigh on faultless by comparison. Constantly turning any ball he was given into positive play or position for Saracens.

Unfortunately I dont think that Dan Biggar is the type of player to learn and improve. Which given his position at the region at such a young age, taking into account the opportunities he has had, he should have done.

I am very disappointed as he was making a far better account of himself against weaker opposition.

Though I would stay away from commenting on this game until all the idiots had got the slating out of their system.

I think a lot of 'real' Os fans on here knew this season would be a struggle what with losing the players they did, that said they still should have had enough experience on the pitch to win that game.

H&H have come in for criticism before but surely now they must be on borrowed time, their continuous use of Biggar and the swapping and changing of players from position to position is just disruptive.

I have knocked R Jones quite bit over last few seasons but thought he has been playing well when coming off the bench for Wales, last week in 2nd row he had shocker yet this week back in the back row I thought he had stormer.

Ashley Beck is also looking good at the moment and wouldn't be surprised to see him get called into the training squad for 6 Nations at least.

Crowd was again poor but there are lots of reasons for that and H&H must look at what they producing or trying to produce on the field.

Beds,

I wouldn't blame Humphrey's, as the forwards look good most of the time. Then again, they are good players so maybe a better coach would do a better job? I certainly think that Sean Holly is someone who gets a great deal of finger pointing at.

He has had some fantastic backs to coach over his tenure and they have done little magic while he has bee nat the helm.

Would love to se what would happen if the Ospreys and Leinster swapped coaching and set ups for a week.

Regarding attendances...!!!

Where were all the Saracen supporters? Our average gate is about 5500 or 6000 Ospreys fans. We managed a gate of 7900. There must have been fifty Saracen fans tops.

mm,

Morning butty, they have had so much talent and experience at their disposal over last few seasons taht I am pretty sure other proven coaches could have got far more out of them

Beds it is sad to say but probably true.

Its seems they attracted all the big names but 'made do' with the coaches already there. Johnson aside as know the finally got him in.

Sean Holley appears to have been a very good self publicist, or at least his agent was, or someone was for him, claiming he was doing all the good at the region and Lyn jones was the negative influence. Lyn left and nothing changed... Can only make one presumption there.

But the issues of this HEC campaign are far simpler, we gave away three soft tries to a good team Losing two matches and now we are out.

maestegmafia wrote:Regarding attendances...!!!

Where were all the Saracen supporters? Our average gate is about 5500 or 6000 Ospreys fans. We managed a gate of 7900. There must have been fifty Saracen fans tops.

Possibly because it was an evening kick off and a 4+ hour journey back. Saturday was probably the day many people had earmarked for Christmas shopping (by the missus ), so an overnight stay would also be out of the question for many.

I don't agree with these HC games in December as people don't have much money to spend on away trips. Rounds 3&4 should be played at the end of November.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Regarding attendances...!!!

Where were all the Saracen supporters? Our average gate is about 5500 or 6000 Ospreys fans. We managed a gate of 7900. There must have been fifty Saracen fans tops.

Possibly because it was an evening kick off and a 4+ hour journey back. Saturday was probably the day many people had earmarked for Christmas shopping (by the missus ), so an overnight stay would also be out of the question for many.

I don't agree with these HC games in December as people don't have much money to spend on away trips. Rounds 3&4 should be played at the end of November.

Good Point...!

Maesteg:

The crowd at the game was 7090, half an hour before the game I thought the crowd was going to be more like 900, the car parking around Morrisons was empty. The timing of the game at 8pm KO on a Friday night does not help the Sarries supporters to get to the game. I spent a lot of the game watching the birds flying around the lights during the Sarries time wasteing, I would love to know how long the game was in play, I suspect not more than 8 minutes each half, an expensive evening watching so little rugby!

I was told by a mate that the free parking for Swans games has been cancled. They send guys checking number plates...

I thought the same pre game. The west stand never filled up at all...

Still very few Sarries fans made the trip. Considering 7900 was all local lads that wasnt a bad effort on our behalf

I agree I was wondering about the crowd before the game as well, because with 20 minutes to go it seemed that there was only 2,000 or so there.

Can we also get the coaching team right please it is Ho-Hum!
(Holley-Humphreys).

maestegmafia wrote:Still very few Sarries fans made the trip. Considering 7900 was all local lads that wasnt a bad effort on our behalf

For a pool-defining Heineken Cup game? Really?
A bit weak to blame the away fans for your poor gates.

I suspect the Scarlets supporters will be pleased to hear Ian Evans is unlikely to play over Xmas as he left the ground in a surgical boot so it looks like R Jones will end up in the second row so JT will be at 8 again.

"I think Biggar going off made a big difference. He had an awful game. He doesn't read what he sees, he sticks to set
Moves whether they are working or not. He is not a good communicator and we really suffered due to his ineptness to read the opposition defence."

Totally agree. Also missed two very kickable pens and what a lovely chargedown. He is a manufactured player who lacks the instincts and vision to play at the top level, which requires players to play what is in front of them and vary game plans depending on what is working and what isn't, as well as what the opposition are doing. I have never rated Biggar and, unless he improves immensely, never will.

It was only a few weeks ago that Jonson was singing his praises and clamouring for him to be in the Wales team. I'm sure the coaches in the opposing home unions hope he makes the squad and plays a part in Wales' Games!

I said last week on the thread for the previous Sarries game that our HC was over. The laughable thing -- R Hibbard is quoted in the Wales on Sunday today as saying not to count them out yet (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/12/17/richard-hibbard-claims-dejected-ospreys-can-still-reach-heineken-cup-quarter-finals-91466-29971439/).

Ospreys will never do well or win the HC with the coaching setup they have. Mistakes have been made regarding player recruitment and retention, game management and team sleection and tactics, and facets of play have always been weak and unreliable -- especially the lineout. The Ospreys midfield is simply not good enough -- Bishop is a shadow of the player he was last year and he has never been a great attacker. There has never been a proper balance in midfield -- with a footballer and a basher, or two footballers who can do the lot (defend, pass, kick, have good fotwork, and at least a bit of pace).

Building a team around Biggar will never work. Crowds will continue to drop because people are sick of seeing a game riddled with basic mistakes, a lack of basic skills, unreliable or game-losing set pieces (lineout), and an inability to make the right decisions (such as, when there's an overlap, throwing a miss pass instead of going through the hands). Some players should be shown the door, but the owners should start with bringing in a proven head coach who runs everything to do with what happens on the pitch, and let him choose his team and which players whould stay and which positions need to be strengthened.

I asked SJ on Real Radio a few weeks ago -- what is the weakness in the team/squad? He didn't answer the question, nor did I expect him to. The lack of penetration in midfield was glaring yet again.

I wonder what the excuses will be from the coaches for failure in the hC again this year? Probably, because they're rebuilding? I suppose they can still rely on the old chestnut of "we're a young entity". That was a favourite for a few years. Perhaps we'll have a few more speeches about developing a culture and values, or how they're not Galacticos and it wasn't nice that the press kept mentioning it. More about banning fake tans or fancy boots? Boo hoo. It never ends. The excuses and whingeing starts from the top. Time for a proven coach.

All said, well done to Sarries. They are a good strong team -- they defend well, the set pieces are strong (so they have a real platform to work from), and they have some excellent players throughout and a good kicking game.

"I think Biggar going off made a big difference. He had an awful game. He doesn't read what he sees, he sticks to set
Moves whether they are working or not. He is not a good communicator and we really suffered due to his ineptness to read the opposition defence."

Totally agree. Also missed two very kickable pens and what a lovely chargedown. He is a manufactured player who lacks the instincts and vision to play at the top level, which requires players to play what is in front of them and vary game plans depending on what is working and what isn't, as well as what the opposition are doing. I have never rated Biggar and, unless he improves immensely, never will.

It was only a few weeks ago that Jonson was singing his praises and clamouring for him to be in the Wales team. I'm sure the coaches in the opposing home unions hope he makes the squad and plays a part in Wales' Games!

I said last week on the thread for the previous Sarries game that our HC was over. The laughable thing -- R Hibbard is quoted in the Wales on Sunday today as saying not to count them out yet (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/12/17/richard-hibbard-claims-dejected-ospreys-can-still-reach-heineken-cup-quarter-finals-91466-29971439/).

Ospreys will never do well or win the HC with the coaching setup they have. Mistakes have been made regarding player recruitment and retention, game management and team sleection and tactics, and facets of play have always been weak and unreliable -- especially the lineout. The Ospreys midfield is simply not good enough -- Bishop is a shadow of the player he was last year and he has never been a great attacker. There has never been a proper balance in midfield -- with a footballer and a basher, or two footballers who can do the lot (defend, pass, kick, have good fotwork, and at least a bit of pace).

Building a team around Biggar will never work. Crowds will continue to drop because people are sick of seeing a game riddled with basic mistakes, a lack of basic skills, unreliable or game-losing set pieces (lineout), and an inability to make the right decisions (such as, when there's an overlap, throwing a miss pass instead of going through the hands). Some players should be shown the door, but the owners should start with bringing in a proven head coach who runs everything to do with what happens on the pitch, and let him choose his team and which players whould stay and which positions need to be strengthened.

I asked SJ on Real Radio a few weeks ago -- what is the weakness in the team/squad? He didn't answer the question, nor did I expect him to. The lack of penetration in midfield was glaring yet again.

I wonder what the excuses will be from the coaches for failure in the hC again this year? Probably, because they're rebuilding? I suppose they can still rely on the old chestnut of "we're a young entity". That was a favourite for a few years. Perhaps we'll have a few more speeches about developing a culture and values, or how they're not Galacticos and it wasn't nice that the press kept mentioning it. More about banning fake tans or fancy boots? Boo hoo. It never ends. The excuses and whingeing starts from the top. Time for a proven coach.

All said, well done to Sarries. They are a good strong team -- they defend well, the set pieces are strong (so they have a real platform to work from), and they have some excellent players throughout and a good kicking game.

Maestegmafia you make me laugh mate. Fair play for admitting you were wrong though. Ospreys do have some very talented players. You'll be back - probably stronger. Just make sure you learn from it.

My take on the game - Ospreys simply made too many errors in the first half. Conceding that soft try was a killer blow. It was always going to be a uphill battle for O's coming up against such a dogged and strong defence like Sarries.

In the two games Ospreys have only been able to score against Sarries either from a lucky ricochet or when Sarries have been down to 14 men. They need to look at their attack definitely!

Saracens stuck to their gameplan doggedly, took all points on offer and made Ospreys fight for every point.

Whereas last week Sarries squandered opportunities this week Sarries did what they had to do effectively. Not easy on the eye but brutally effective.

Sarries were simply too organised and too strong defensively.

The ref was poor and the scrum was a mess but that's unfortunately what happens with the current rules. Some of the decisions for both sides were baffling.

Anyobe reckon the Saffacen player will get cited for 'beanbagging' Gough ? ouch

Hope not. There was dirty play by Ospreys. Stamping for example. If it was the incident I am thinking of Gough probably got what he deserved.

Munkian when will you and others learn to spell properly? Sigh.

He was South African....

And what man punches another in the knackers ? Scumbag

What's your point? The team name is Saracens. Do they not teach spelling in schools anymore?

Someone who deserves it? Do you think it was done unprovoked?

There was a lot of niggle in the game.

It was cowardly - almost Beckham-esque - lying on floor and having a swing when the other player wasn't looking.

How would I know if they teach spelling in schools - I'm 30.

Sorry to hear that. Ospreys are no angels.

Not a big fan of the O's because some of their fans and players are in my opinion quite arrogant. Complaining about the ref every other minute during the game. It can't be the players' fault as they are absolutely amazing and world class. Must be the coaching staff repeatedly dropping the ball and messing up.

Some Ospreys players have a tendency to posture and big themselves up before the game. Happened in that 2008 game too. Ryan Jones and Shane Williams in particular.


"I can get my hands on the ball a bit more and we can put Saracens to the sword"

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/swansea-ospreys/2011/12/15/ospreys-winger-shane-williams-give-me-the-ball-and-i-will-hurt-saracens-91466-29961105/#ixzz1gyYGGUF0

After this arrogance from Ickle Shane it was so satisfying to win!


The O's just need more humility. Instead of continously blaming the coaches you should blame the players too.

But the coaches pick the players. It's a vicious circle.

I wonder if anyone of you guys saw the game, the flash point of the trouble in the game was started by the Ospreys.
You can clearly see in the second scrumage Adam Jones jabs Rhys Gill on the "touch" part of the scrumaging set up, then when the scrum breaks up, Jones can again clearly be seen pushing Gill, before finally pushing him in the face and walking behind Ian Evans when Gill reacts.

The Ospreys went out to annoy the hot heads in the Saracens teams and it worked. Ian Evans was in his element, as were other players like Tipuric, Gough, and Hibbard who love the nasty stuff.

Alyn I was at the match where you dont get a good view, but I had taped the game, glad I had as the scrum was a mystery that ruined the evening. Must have been more resets than i have ever experienced

Anyhow, it is even clearer to see that the whole Saracens front row stepped right before they went down. Front rows do this to force the opposing scrum to have decide where they are going to hit. It is illegal.

They also stepped in too close before the engage, heads were touching. The referee should have taken action, but he didnt know what was happening.

First scrum penalty against the Ospreys was for dropping, when Gill was touching the floor, not binding pre scrum.

No team are Angles, and Props like Adam Jones, Paul James and Duncan Jones all know enough tricks to get one up man ship on the opposition, no different to Gill, Brits, Smit or Stevens.

Alyndavies I did watch the game. That's why I said to Munkian Gough got what he deserved. You wound up our players like Gloucester do but ultimately like them it failed.


Ospreys are a good side but you expect too much. Your target this season should be to win the Celtic League. Learn from your mistakes and get ready for next season's HC now.

Morgannwg is it the coaches fault that Biggar is so erratic? Whose the back up?

The O's could have done with Hook at fly half.

Just forget this setback and move on. You haven't got a bad side. Just keep developing and you'll be stronger next season.

Shocked, Biggar wasn't erratic, quite the opposite, he was anonymous...!

I meant erratic in regards to turning up to one game and not the next. I thought he was highly rated at the O's.

Fussell was a strange one - excellent at Wembley but did little at the Liberty.

Beck was good in both.

I dont think Biggar played well in either to be honest...! Fussell either. Both need to do a bit of soul searching and a lot of improving before the final round.

For the Ospreys to qualify the team need to play way above the standard they have showed so far in the HEC.

beshocked wrote:
Morgannwg is it the coaches fault that Biggar is so erratic? Whose the back up?

The O's could have done with Hook at fly half.

Just forget this setback and move on. You haven't got a bad side. Just keep developing and you'll be stronger next season.

I don't suppose it is the coaches fault that Biggar is erratic/poor. That just comes natural. Ospreys have always had a history of developing players only in the early stages of their career rather than their whole career. They do persist with selecting him (and Fussell) so must be held accountable. They're even in a position of not knowing their best 8 forwards despite the player resources up front.

Matthew Morgan is the back-up. He is a little livewire of a player, but that is also his weakenss, being little. If he can get on the roids like every other rugby player then that might not be as big an issue. To sum it up in my view he has all of Biggars strengths and none of his weaknesses. The fact Hook was kept out the fly-half jersey by DB says a lot for the O's coaching staff. Although it is hard to tell whether his presence on friday would have prevented a Sarries victory, as he has been a bit of a charge down merchant aswell.

As for Fussell, he has always been an average club player. I do not think he is good enough for European rugby and was always a critic of his when he was a Dragon. Eventually he lost his place but by then he had already signed for the Ospreys, very smart on their behalf...

"I don't suppose it is the coaches fault that Biggar is erratic/poor." Wrong. It's their responsibility for picking him and building a team around him.

L Halfpenny not kept -- 1 year later he's a British Lion.

Mustoe not kept, but they kept Vaughton.

That's just two poor decisions among many.

If this coaching team persists, together with a team built around Biggar at 10, it will only lead to one thing as far as the HC is concerned: more failure.

For those who support Biggar, think back over how many games he's beeen charged down, thrown interception passes that led to tries, kicked away ball badly rather than distribute or kick well, and miss crucial kicks (kicks that really matter, when the presssure is on). It takes experience, vision, and skill to be a good 10. Biggar has been given a lot of playing opportunities, especially in the HC, but he falls short of the mark required.

Raw talent is obvious. The lack of it is equally obvious.

Morgan has the raw talent. He is small, and defensively he is currently very weak. He is also very inexperienced. I'm sure the likes of Shaun Edwards and a long-term fitness and conditioning programme can improve his defence and his physique as much as his stature allows. It was reported that the Ospreys tried to lure Steffan Jones, but he elected to stay with the Dragons. For me, he is a better prospect than Biggar, but there are others ...

I dont think Morgan is anywhere near the finished article yet, but the difference between him and Biggar for me is that it is apparent that he is working very hard on his fallibilities, equally it is clear that Biggar does not.

Morgan made two try saving tackles against Munster a couple of weeks ago, his pressure kicking, remember the Airioni game, is fantastic for such a young guy and he naturally reads the game so much better.

It will be interesting to see what happens here...

Ospreydragon wrote: It was reported that the Ospreys tried to lure Steffan Jones, but he elected to stay with the Dragons. For me, he is a better prospect than Biggar, but there are others ...

Oh dear, the vultures were at it again. Seriously, you have got more feeder clubs and players than the other three. I am not aiming this at you btw, as you are just the messenger. Jones is a Crosskeys prospect, are no prospects at Swansea/Aberavon/Bridgend/Neath?

Morgannwg, I know he's a Cross Keys product and was only singing his praises to Ringo a few weeks ago. You're right -- there should be other possibilities in the region. But we are talking about pro sport here, although Steffan has shown loyalty to the region.

I really hope other possibilities at flyhalf are offered to Ospreys!

maestegmafia, Morgan was brought on 9 minutes before the end of the Treviso match and snatched a draw with an extremely difficult kick.

Against Sarries, he's brought on with about 4 minutes to go.

I appreciate the coaches are protecting him, but he should get 10 - 20 minutes at least.

Tell you what, watching the Dragons last night i think that Steffan Jones made a good decision. That Faletau try was fantastic.