Where do Bath go from here ?

Leaving aside that Bath played against a pseudo Test side last night, full of current first pick international players, what lessons are to be learned?

Donald does not look fit and off the pace and his slow ball contributed to our demise and we missed Hipkiss at 13 for defence as Banahan got bamboozled by the dummy runners and obstructions that pass for attacking plays these days and simply couldnt cope with it.
The front row went well but away from home in the HC will rarely get rewarded, the locks kept going to the end which was encouraging and generally did their job well. Hopefully young Mercer will have learned a few lessons particularly as the ref allowed a free for all at the breakdown, which Jennings took full advantage of, in the absence of Moody who would not have allowed some of the play, off the feet, that went on. Louw had a good game but Taylor was quiet and well past his best in my view.

Claassens has been subdued for some time in the league and it was noticeable the pace picked up when Cook came on and with Heathcote and Williams (ages 20, 19 and 21 respectively) these players have to to be the future, if we can hang on to them, as too many Academy players in recent times have been pilfered by other sides.

It was a lot to ask of Barkley in crowded traffic in his third game back in 8 months to make a difference but is starting to look like he's obtaining some form.

The back three simply did not get much quality ball, although Abendanon did try some mazy running but the Leinster cover defence was too organised and generally with men to spare. The Vesty yellow card was simply a guess by the ref judging by the number of players flying off their feet at that ruck, which, as the away team is generally how it goes percentage wise. Leinster were very professional in taking full advantage.

As an aside, I thought it was interesting that when at Bath, the crowd vociferously pointed out to the ref, the numerous forward passes committed by Leinster and they looked a bit spooked by it and their back play was stilted because of it and butchered try scoring opportunities but at the Aviva the blatent try scoring passes were allowed and again Leinster were professional in their execution.

We should expose more Academy players to the two remaining HC games and rest senior players for the rest of the league campaign, which is unbelievably tight this season and put this years HC campaign to bed and the younger players should reflect on the lessons learned and we need Moody, Fearns and Skirving to to regain fitness, pronto as without competitive backrows, the game is lost before you start.

Bath are carrying a couple of players at the minute and as tigers found out last year you can't go to the aviva and get away with that. A front row that is below HEC average, no balance to the midfield and the extremely average Taylor are all areas that need addressing. A new lineout lock is required as well.

The front row is certainly an issue, it's a cornerstone of the best sides and Bath has been below standard. That being said I think Perenise and Beech are a decent start at adressing some of it and like a number of areas may just need a bit of time. I think that definitely also applies to Donald, who I believe will prove a good signing for you once he's bedded in.

A top hooker is needed, but the locks are pretty good. In the backrow Fearns, Mercer and Louw have plenty of promise of what could become a top unit.

In the backs you're definitely short at least a top centre and top wing. I remain unconvinced by Hipkiss, Biggs & Cuthbert, and who knows about Eastmond.

Aside from that it's about developing depth of squad.

In short, a few areas still to address, but I think there are reasons to be hopeful and a season or so may be needed to see how much those hopes will return.

'Leaving aside that Bath played against a pseudo Test side last night, full of current first pick international players, what lessons are to be learned?'

You should start by being realistic. You were playing against 5 first choice internationals last night. Same as last week. As was pointed out when you made the point previously.

Big signings needed, for the pack.

Troubles all seemed to be up front. That pack are just collecting paychecks, thats it. Caldwell was possibly your best tight 5 player again. This is due to a unique druid spell that is cast on all irish players who go to the Jeff and beyond. When they see an Irish provincial jersey, they are possessed by rugby spirits to play out of their skin for that game. It might last one more game before he drifts back to a secondrow player that couldn't hack it at Ulster.

Its all well and good talking about Hipkiss, Banahan, Barkley, Donald but backs can score tries until the forwards have won the game! (.... yes I was a forward). Even in the backs, Donald's only play (and I expect he was directly by Geech) was to pass to Barkley who would perform the role of 10 without wearing 10 or having to cope with the responsibility of 10. You could have picked up Stringer to play 10 if that is all he is expected to do for you (and the ball would reach Barkley quicker!).

The view seems to be the front row is not good enough but they werent under significant pressure from Leinster whose SA LH was very average, so I am not so sure and in the Aviva the front row rarely gets put under pressure although we rarely challenge offensively either which perhaps is the point.

The back row has to be the area to focus on, as we seem to get exposed at the breakdown both offensively and defensively and we dont have a destructive ball carrier so this has to be an area to improve.

A midfield with Barkley, Williams, Hipkiss & Carraro should be establishing familiar combinations for the rest of the season and then a view should be taken if change is needed.

I would have thought Healy, Ross, O'brien, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, Darcy, Fitzgerald & Kearney makes the bulk of a Test side which with Cullen, Mcfadden and Cronin thrown in makes an unbeatable number of caps from current internationals.

Quins have just beaten a virtual international side at Toulouse, with a young english (and kiwi at playmaker) side so it is possible with a team on form and a little luck.

That has to be Bath's target

And they did it without that blood nonsense so makes a change !

recwatcher, just wondering how much effect has the money of bruce craig had this season? It may well be a number of years before bath see significant benefits of his investment on the pitch, but from a fans perspective how noticable have the effects of the cash injection been in the short term?

Bath's biggest challenge is a new ground, as we are falling behind other clubs and the news continues to be positive but not definitive. The short term change has been in training facilities but if the players are injured, the squad size and
academy have become key for managing our fixture list.

Craig has lots of contacts in the french game and fully expect the effects of that to develop further too

I have a number of concerns about where Bath are at the moment.

The future should be full of brightness in terms of Craig's stewardship of the club, he's made massive committments in terms of developing Bath Rugby from the Academy, through Farleigh and it's world class facilities up to the development of The Rec itself.

But I can't help thinking that all of the plans in motion are overlooking the main objective, which is building a winning team that plays the "brand" of rugby that Bath Rugby really stands for.

In terms of recent signings I'll pick the most obvious one first; Donald, it's a well known "secret" that Craig wanted Carter and when that deal fell flat he turned to an also-ran NZ "tin" in the shape of Donald. I was extremely unenthusiastic when I heard the rumour Donald was on his way at the end of last season, and he has done nothing to change my mind since his arrival.

If Craig really wanted the best "also-ran" ex-NZ out-half out there, he should have gone gunning for Nick Evans, currently the best 10 in Europe, right up there for the last 3 seasons and a proven performer in the AP.

Two other signings are Caldwell and Attwood, both of whom I presumed were signed to provide some backbone and bite to the tight five, it now looks as though the attributes they were signed for have been steadily trained out of them to the extent that Bath have a couple of pussycats in the engine room.

I'm all for Bruce Craig, his passion and his vision - but I think it's time someone was employed to do the right thing for Bath Rugby, there should be some changes made at management and coaching levels at the end of this season that will make the most of Craig's input.

As things stand Bath look like a classic case of "all the gear but no idea".

I'm not happy about it.

itll be a shame if the day comes when rugby is no longer played at the rec, aesthetically the best ground in the league

bobo wrote:itll be a shame if the day comes when rugby is no longer played at the rec, aesthetically the best ground in the league

There are any number of grounds in the Aviva which are better than the rec, with it's poor capacity, temporary stands and bog awful facilities cramped in the city.

I think Franklin Gardens is the most pleasing to the eye as it is a dedicated rugby stadium designed and built for the purpose.

When (if) Tigers get the full development completed at Welford road we will have a stadium that is international standard.

I think bobo is referring to the setting the ground is in rather than the ground itself MT, The Rec is a wreck without doubt, and whilst Saints & Tigers have and are developing really nice stadia - they're not slap in the middle of a World Heritage site.

Recwatcher wrote: I would have thought Healy, Ross, O'brien, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, Darcy, Fitzgerald & Kearney makes the bulk of a Test side which with Cullen, Mcfadden and Cronin thrown in makes an unbeatable number of caps from current internationals.

Well thats split this up shall we - Healy, Cronin and D'Arcy didn't start, Fitzgeral is behind Trimble, Bowe and Earls re a wing slot, McFadden is even further behind. Cullen is probably about 5th choice or worse.

So we are down to 5, maybe 6 with Reddan who would start for Ireland if a team was named now.
Strong yes but a long way from beign a pseudo test side.

PJHolybloke wrote:I think bobo is referring to the setting the ground is in rather than the ground itself MT, The Rec is a wreck without doubt, and whilst Saints & Tigers have and are developing really nice stadia - they're not slap in the middle of a World Heritage site.

Fair enough. Bath is a lot prettier than Leicester as cities go!

Big signings needed, for the pack..

Big players not big names are needed at Bath. They require a purely scrummaging TH (maybe they should send their scouts to Eastern Europe) and another powerful backrower (start looking with Samoa, Fiji and Tonga). I'm unconvinced by Donald but they are stuck with him now, an explosive outisde back should be on the shopping list as well but they aren't easy to come by.

It seems to me Bath are stuck between playing the pragmatic rugby Geech favours where tactical thought is key and the traditional Bath style of throw it around and try to build up the tries.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Big signings needed, for the pack..

It seems to me Bath are stuck between playing the pragmatic rugby Geech favours where tactical thought is key and the traditional Bath style of throw it around and try to build up the tries.

I think thats exactly the problem mate, I agree. Lost the best parts of our old Meehan styled game, but don't have the pack and/or tactical kickers to grind out games.

I want to talk about Bath but perhaps Geoff, we should have a wager on how many of that Leinster squad make the match day 22 in six weeks time for the opening 6N game !! Pretty sure it will be more than five, given how many played in the last 6N / RWC.

I am worried that the focus on the ground issues does detract from squad development and our reliance on Academy players, although the longer term benefits will be apparent if we can hold on to those players as Catt, Lilley, Mercer, Ovens, Cook, Heathcote and Williams all have potential along with Fearns and Beech who have been acquired and are all under 23. These guys have to be mentored and developed as a priority otherwise come HC time with inevitable injury lists these guys have to be up to pace which is going to be a big challenge with fixture list we have.

Recwatcher wrote:I want to talk about Bath but perhaps Geoff, we should have a wager on how many of that Leinster squad make the match day 22 in six weeks time for the opening 6N game !! Pretty sure it will be more than five, given how many played in the last 6N / RWC.

It will be 7 (Healy, Ross, Heaslip, O'Brien, Sexton, D'arcy and Kearney) in the starting line up and maybe 4 or 5 on the bench (Reddan, Cronin, Fitzgerald/McFadden, Toner?, Jennings?).

You heard it here 1st.....

By my guess 7 will start and 3 will be on the bench however as I said 2 of those starters didn't start against Bath - hence the figure of 5 first choice Internationals in the starting 15 at the weekend.

roddersm wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:I want to talk about Bath but perhaps Geoff, we should have a wager on how many of that Leinster squad make the match day 22 in six weeks time for the opening 6N game !! Pretty sure it will be more than five, given how many played in the last 6N / RWC.

It will be 7 (Healy, Ross, Heaslip, O'Brien, Sexton, D'arcy and Kearney) in the starting line up and maybe 4 or 5 on the bench (Reddan, Cronin, Fitzgerald/McFadden, Toner?, Jennings?).

You heard it here 1st.....

I think on current form Luke Fitz will be a shoe in - either on the wing (with Earls @ 13) or at 13 himself.

Whats the title of this thread? Ok Leinster people, give us some space, i'm still cowering from Saturday! Cheers

Where do Bath go from here?

What was it that Clarkson said (on the One Show) should happen to Civil Servants in front of their families?

To answer the title, first of all I hope there is a serious bit of soul searching from all the coaches/senior players. I dont think many of us thought we'd get anything out of the game, but that was absolute humiliation.

Combine that with the recent performances at Wuss and at home to Sale, something is clearly not right. I know there are some weaknesses in the squad, but they are performing as less than the sum of their parts. So in my mind, that puts part of the blame at the coaches door. I think it was too much to expect Brad Davis to change from Defense coach to both that and attack. I think anyone who has watched Bath play can see the evidence of this.

With regards to new players, I would hope that front row will be a priority to strengthen, along with lock. Big names arent needed, just solid players who will give their all. Its a real shame Fearns has been injured, as I think he could be 1st choice no.8 and is far more dynamic than Taylor.

Fearns would have made a difference as would Mears, Hopper and Moody in terms of pack leadership and experience in dealing with that hostile type environment.
However we never put out the same team twice and establish some combinations which is only partly due to injuries but some of the selections against certain teams has not been very clever and needs to improve.

they lost to leinster in dublin...............no disgrace?

No its not - but that is 6 loses to Irish teams on the bounce - that is a problem.

bobo wrote:they lost to leinster in dublin...............no disgrace?

Losing is fine. Conceding over FIFTY points is not.

Conceding 50 odd points could be seen as a negative too....

"What was it that Clarkson said (on the One Show) should happen to Civil Servants in front of their families?"

Oh I get you Hersh. A BloodBath?

Exclude a few forward try scoring passes, also crooked lineouts and dubious yellow cards and the scoreline might have been closer - although Leinsters greater experience would have always told in the end.

Recwatcher wrote:Exclude a few forward try scoring passes, also crooked lineouts and dubious yellow cards and the scoreline might have been closer

A glass half full man I see......

Coaching staff needs to change before you start bringing in the players, Geech never managed any success at Glos and it's the same here. If you want to go for a big name get Dean Richards in as head coach, if not him then a SupRugby coach etc someone with proven silverware winning capabilities. I'd stay clear of Graham Henry too.

Get a full time attack coach in and sack the forwards coach as well.

After this then you need to get a good pack going, not big names but reliable guys that wont let you down. Someone like Neil Best at Wuss would be useful as he always ghives 110% good hookers and props are trickier but with your budget shouldn't be too difficult to find.

After that maybe Donald will play well. If not then bring on the academy lads quick.

I always look for the positives rodders.......!

yappysnap wrote: Someone like Neil Best at Wuss would be useful as he always ghives 110%

Don't get me started....

In 3 words:

Steer
Well
Clear

Dean Richards would definitely be a good call, as he identifies solid rugby players who live and breathe the game but as a Bath man, probably a little too much to stomach......

I'd settle for Deano.

I'm sure he'd jump at the chance to take charge of Bath

Deano has been a consultant at Wuss hasnt he? Presumably he will just slot in there. I personally think he will be a good coach again, but will Brucey take the risk....

As a worst case scenario couldnt we get Ashton to come back and coach the backs for the rest of the season? And get Grewcock to give the forwards a lesson in how to be nasty...

Grewcock is mentoring the Academy forwards, so I fully expect to see some grizzly youngsters with game time attitude to start coming through !
I was at the ground the other day and saw the academy players warming up, the size of some of the youngsters made Grewcock look tiny, to the extent my saffer pal was amazed and didn't think they made em that big in the SW !

Caldwell doesn't need Grewcock - he has already got the skill of giving away stupid penalties down to a fine art

I agree Caldwell has not made an auspicious start but club captain Hopper is injured, so he is next in line. Hooper along with Attwood are the best lock combination at Bath - brains and brawn respectively......

Hey- the team is perfectly capable of giving away stupid penalties I'll have you know! In fact that seems to be the one area we seem to be doing well at!

good hookers and props are trickier but with your budget shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Hawkins is out of contract in the summer and might favour a move away from Tigers where he has drifted down to third choice. Would provide some decent depth with Mears and he is a Bath boy especially as Batty is going. Failing that Sale have three decent hookers and one of those would be a good squad addition. Better to have three that can do the job well and provide competition than one who is international class and then a load of mediocare back up.

Release a big money player like Taylor and splash some cash on a loosehead. Mercey at Saints must be bored of not even making the bench. Was a decent England Saxon and age group player not long ago, shouldn't be too expensive and another punt on an Eastern European wouldn't go amiss either.

I wonder if Hawkins would want to come back though? It was a shame he ever left in my opinion.
I wonder if someone like the Sarries young lad (George?) would want a bit more 1st team action? Cant be great being behind Smit and the leagues best hooker.

As you say, better to have a strong squad of players rather than a big name and nothing really below that.

I think George is signed up long term, Brits isn't though. His contract runs out in the summer.

Hawkins isn't getting a lot of game time and is now third choice behind Chuter and Youngs. If promises about regular first team rugby were made he might be tempted.

Hawkins should never have left but the rumour was he fell out with a number of players after the crockett / lipman incident and left pretty shortly afterwards. Leicester are missing a trick as Hawkins on form is better than Chuter who must be on his last legs and bears no comparison, pace wise around the pitch.

Sam Bath might look at Brits but I couldn't see him signing for them.

If Brits does leave a big French club is more likely.

Could you give me any reasons why he might want to go to Bath?

I am not sure what the situation is with buying players out of contract. Could Bath do something there?

Bath haven't helped themselves by having a pretty poor start to the season in regards to bargaining power next season.Bath have in recent seasons had good form after new year so there is hope.

How's the Eastmond experiment going?

I dont think he would want to go to Bath to be honest, I'm sure he could earn double if he goes to France.

My point was more the targeting of good younger players who have their pathway blocked by quality older ones, as in the George/Brits situation in theory, although I didnt realise Brits' contract was up.

Recwatcher, I heard plenty of similar vague rumours. Quite a few players left after that. I dont know exactly what happened but thats why I was wondering if he would even want to come back.


beshocked, Eastmond has bascially been injured since he arrived, he's training now apparently though, so hopefully he should be in the reserves soon.