Ashton to Saracens

Morning 606ers, how are you? Any other sad git like me in work today??

Anyway, reading bbc, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16354540.stm, seems Chris is moving. What do people think about that?

For me, I liked seeing Ashton and Hartley in the same side, just knows there'll be some niggle in a game with those two. But as Saracen's a better side, at the moment, and maybe a stricter coach, will that inhibit or strengthen his place in England's side? Reading Mallinder's take on Chris's position, it seems he is not even garunteed a start spot in N'ton side, or is that just shots to make Chris a bit insecure?

Seesm this Vasily Artemyev is a bit of a player!

Oh Happy New Year to all, a bit early I know but not at work tomorrow so won't be on puter!

Above link is not working http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16354540.stm
Maybe he could end up in France.

Ahh link works for me.

No mention of France there, in the article, here it is:

Northampton Saints director of rugby Jim Mallinder says England wing Chris Ashton does not appear to want to talk to the club about a new contract.

The 24-year-old has been linked with a move to Saracens, with his current deal at Franklin's Gardens ending in 2012.

Mallinder told BBC Look East: "There's not an offer on the table, because his agent doesn't want to talk to us.

"We've not had discussions and I think his mind is elsewhere. If he wanted to stay, we'd talk to him."


Mallinder ready for 'difficult' trip
Saints chairman Leon Barwell has stated he would not "throw money" at the England wing in order to keep him at the club.

"If any player wants to go, for whatever reason, whether that's moving to London, or a massive financial offer, we're not going to stand in their way," said Mallinder.

"We'll shake their hand and we'll get players who want to play for Northampton."

Mallinder has also warned that Ashton will have to work hard to get back into the Saints' starting XV on return from suspension, regardless of what happens with his future beyond next summer.

Wing Jamie Elliott has scored five tries in six appearances for Saints this term whilst Russia international Vasily Artemyev has crossed the line seven times in nine appearances.

"He's got to fight for his position on the field like everybody else and, at the moment, our wingers are doing really well."

"If any player wants to go, for whatever reason, whether that's moving to London, or a massive financial offer, we're not going to stand in their way," said Mallinder.

The massive financial offer to me would mean France.

Good call!!! Yip the French clubs seems to have oodles of cash.. though can't think of any of the big clubs needing a winger

Maybe not, the AP financial structure is changing next season so Ashton could be Sarries big signing.

Is it me or is he seriously overated?!?!

How do Sarries operate within the salary cap?

Anyone.

The line "Mallinder has also warned that Ashton will have to work hard to get back into the Saints' starting XV on return from suspension, regardless of what happens with his future beyond next summer." could just be making Ashton feel a wee bit insecure so he'd resign just in case?

I don't think he's overrated, as long as you know what he is in the side for. He has his limitations but what he does he seems to do well, which is tracking the ball for the offload and making use of his pace to get the score. If that's what the coach wants from his winger then he'd be a good buy. If a coach wants an all round player with defence then maybe not.

I'd think that Ashton still wants to play for England. So wouldn't it be either Saracens or Bath both of whom have wealthy owners.

Japan???

He'll never fit in with all the kiwis playing there already...

its a little disappointing to see this kind of situation developing in rugby, i know its probably an inevitable consequence of professionalism but I see no sporting reason for a move from saints to sarries.

Sarries are a little stronger at the minute but ashton should be showing some faith in his team mates and some loyalty to the club and manager that gave him his opportunity in union, there is no reason why saints cant improve that little bit and compete with sarries for titles.

there is of course the financial considerations but i just feel that ashton will be paid well enough and is still young enough to earn a lucrative transfer and/or contract later in his career.

Maybe he just wants to try out the London lifestyle?

Anyway, if he goes to Sarries he'll see less of the ball than he does at Saints. Saracens have decent wingers already, but they are under-used due to Sarries style of play.

HERSH wrote:How do Sarries operate within the salary cap?

Anyone.

We have a partnership with Bedford and quite a lot of our fringe players play for them, and are also paid by them.

with the farrells, tomkins and now ashton we'll need to make up a new wigan based equivanlent of saffacens

I'm also in work , although it's only 10.15 am here on the 30th of December.

As a Saints fan I'm disappointed but not surprised, think it was a 'verbally' done decision to move to Sarries when his best friwnd Tomkins agreed to sign for them earlier in the year.

I don't feel he is overrated, he's very good at what he does and I would have him in the top 5 wingers in the world when on form. Think his defense isn't anywhere near as bad as some make out and thanks to his RL upbringing he has a great pass off either hand compared to many other wingers out there.

Don't think he will go to France, he wants to play international rugby for a few years yet. It will be interesting to see how both his and Foden's form is playing for different clubs, the understanding they have certainly helps to bring the best out of each of them. As a Saints fan if one had to leave then I am happier it's Foden staying and Ashton going.

Sarries may be the better team at the moment but I wouldn't say he is going to a bigger club. Northampton have one of the biggest fan bases in English rugby and they own their home ground. I know Saracens are looking to purchase a new place (and they obviously have the fans based on the game at HQ the other day) but at the moment their success is based on a decent financial backer. I don't think (and certainly hope) that he will be going anywhere but there is no doubt that the Saints have the more solid long term foundations at the moment.

Don't think there will be any issues with him seeing the ball at Sarries. Hodgson, Farrell & Goode all have plenty of skill with ball in hand to allow him enough time and space to cause some serious damage. I know Sarries can be a bit negative at times but when they do decide to run the ball they tend to look pretty dangerous. Wonder if Strettle will switch wings as Ashton certainly plays better on the right.

I agree, it seems probable Ashton wants to go to Saracens. They need wingers who come off and look for the ball. Chris Wyles, whom I regard highly, does this quite well.

Shame if he leaes Saints, the team which brought him into Rugby. But that is pro sport.

I do wonder how Saracens stay within the cap, though.

doctor_grey wrote:I agree, it seems probable Ashton wants to go to Saracens. They need wingers who come off and look for the ball. Chris Wyles, whom I regard highly, does this quite well.

Shame if he leaes Saints, the team which brought him into Rugby. But that is pro sport.

I do wonder how Saracens stay within the cap, though.

I'm another Wyles fan. Good player no matter if he plays on the wing, outside center or full back. Wonder if Saracens would fancy some kind of swap deal

Probably should put this in another thread but it looks Northampton are looking at Miles Benjamin as a straight replacement for Ashton although Leicester are also chasing him.

bobo wrote:with the farrells, tomkins and now ashton we'll need to make up a new wigan based equivanlent of saffacens

Hmmm, they've started at Wigan Warriors, so "Warracens"?

Works for me. Wyles would look great wearing green. And wouldn't be away during the 6 Nations.

Wyles has already had a stint at Northampton. Don't see why he would move back. He gets plenty of gametime for Saracens and seems happy.

It's more of a Northern takeover at Saracens than that of South African.

Hard to call Saracens Saffacens anymore.

Of the latest XV which played Quins - 9 were English, 2 South Africans,1 Italian,1 Welsh,1 Scot and 1 Irish.

Of the XV playing Gloucester in their next team - 10 are English, 1 Irish, 1 Scot, 1 Welsh, 1 South African, 1 American.

As frustrating as Saracens are, I see they have 6 EQed players in the starting pack for the Gloucester game (and Kruis on the bench). Given they, in the not too distant past, often had one EQed player in the starting pack (Borthwick) this is pleasing.

Now they just need to actually go out their with a desire to play rugby rather than wanting to just do enough to win. Without this they will be forever dependent on the whims of their owner. Ashton won't see as much ball at Sarries as at Saints, not because Sarries don't have the players to give their wingers the ball in space, but because they appear to be under instructions not to do it.

Professional rugby is about more than just winning, it's about entertaining. I hope Saracens grasp that soon.

beshocked wrote:Wyles has already had a stint at Northampton. Don't see why he would move back. He gets plenty of gametime for Saracens and seems happy.

Because Rugby players look good wearing green and black.

rug568 wrote:

HERSH wrote:How do Sarries operate within the salary cap?

Anyone.

We have a partnership with Bedford and quite a lot of our fringe players play for them, and are also paid by them.

That's just the dual-reg'd players who are your whipper snappers and Sarries cover the wages, so the partnership with Bedford will not aid this. All I can think is that there will be a lot of farms being bought in South Africa at the moment...

One element that may be irrelevant about Ashton and his proposed move is that he has recently bought a house in the Cotswolds outside of Cirencester. This isn't speculation that Glaws are involved as we have no need for another winger, but maybe Ashton is interested in Amlin Cup rugby and wants to head to Somerset...

Bath would make sense, particularly if he were the player outside of the salary cap.

Bath would be an insane place for him to go to, at least in the short term. They are likely to miss the HC and are still in a state of flux. Id be very concerned about such a clube, theres a good chance their will be more turnover in coaches too.
Leaving England for a payoff would put his international career on hold and damage his long term earning potential. It would have to be a monster contract for him to go.
We know Saracens put the sniffs on him, so they have to be in the picture.

It may well prove that all of this is huff and puff from both the club and his agent in contract negoatiations of course. Its quite sad to see the soccer style transfer nonsense taking over the Jeff.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Bath would be an insane place for him to go to, at least in the short term. They are likely to miss the HC and are still in a state of flux. Id be very concerned about such a clube, theres a good chance their will be more turnover in coaches too.
Leaving England for a payoff would put his international career on hold and damage his long term earning potential. It would have to be a monster contract for him to go.
We know Saracens put the sniffs on him, so they have to be in the picture.

It may well prove that all of this is huff and puff from both the club and his agent in contract negoatiations of course. Its quite sad to see the soccer style transfer nonsense taking over the Jeff.

Understand what your saying but I don't think Mallinder is like that. As a Saints fan fully expect him to leave for Saracens for the increased wages and chance to play along side his friend Tomkins. Fair play to him, will be sorry to see him go but Saints have had a decent return on their investment and I can't fault him for wanting to maximize his earning potential whilst still playing for England. If he does end up going to France (which I don't think he will do, he seems to have the personality where he wants to proove himself the best on the biggest stage) then he is a bigger idiot than most people on here seem to take him for.

If he wants to play as much as possible, I'm unsure why he might want to go to Saracens apart from more money, Strettle & Short seems like stronger competition than he has at Saints.

Maybe he wants to play less and keep himself fresh for more money? He knows he'll have his England outings and Saracens have said they'll rotate him heavily when back, principally playing in the HC and big AP games?

I think it's all just a bit of hot air really, once he's back from his ban and has played a few games and scored he'll realise where he wants to be.

HERSH wrote:How do Sarries operate within the salary cap?

Anyone.

I would imagine its more about bonuses....the basic salary keeps them inline with the wage cap...but then by offering a big bonuses for tries, games played etc they can get round it....

Of course i could be wrong...

You are probably right.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Bath would be an insane place for him to go to, at least in the short term. They are likely to miss the HC and are still in a state of flux. Id be very concerned about such a clube, theres a good chance their will be more turnover in coaches too.

Even if they miss the HC next season they are still clearly a club who are going to be contenders over the next 5 years, they have the ability to pay him silly money and he'd be first choice without any doubt. I think it makes at least as much sense as Sarries.

DaveM I think it's a bit bold to say Bath will clearly be HC contenders over the next 5 years. The money they have needs to be spent well. Look at Toulon. So much money thrown at their squad yet no reward yet.

With Bath and Toulon there seems to be no purpose. Bath don't look like contenders at the moment.

Saracens have made clever signings more than anything. They evidently have good scouts - spotting Spencer,Burger,Joubert,Smith etc.

Why does it always have to be just about the higher wages with Sarries? It's not as if Ashton is signing for Worcester or Newcastle!

We have become a strong contender for trophies, we have London on our doorstep, we have ambitious plans for a new stadium, many other perks.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

HERSH wrote:How do Sarries operate within the salary cap?

Anyone.

I would imagine its more about bonuses....the basic salary keeps them inline with the wage cap...but then by offering a big bonuses for tries, games played etc they can get round it....

Of course i could be wrong...

No bonuses would clearly count toward the cap.

There are grey areas though, like dual registartion etc.
Ive never found a published version of the excact cap rules though, a lot of the practises that used to be common ( employing wives, buying houses etc) got clamped down on when they up the cap a few years ago but what is and isnt possibel now I havent a clue. There was accusations against Bath and Sarries a couple of years ago, but its all been hush since. The new rules in force next season muddy the waters even more.


Regardless its certainly true that Sarries should be a big draw for any player. Im suprissed that the Asshton walked out on Saints but he or his agent clealry has ambition. It appears hes been offered something at Saracens he cant get in Northants, whether thats significantly more money or the chance to stand around and do very little ( how often does the ball actuall get passed to the Sarries winger?) who knows.

With regard to Bath I keep thinking surely tehy have to get it right eventually, but no. The comparisson to Toulon is perhaps a good one. Im not suprissed at all he wouldnt move there if they are far from garunteed HC rugby next season let alone to be a top side. Id also have serious concerns about the long term viabuility of Bath. Sarries are building something of genuine potential on a firm base and backing it up with results on the pitch.

Peter seabiscuit wheeler one thing that Saracens do very well is they treat the players excellently. They get everything from job placements for a day, to trips around the globe like Miami,Capetown and Munich. They feel that they have a potential future after rugby too. Oh and being near London really helps.

The draw for Ashton is also not just his old mate Tomkins but also working under ex Wigan legend, Andy Farrell. There is also now a fairly large Northern contingent growing at Sarries - Wigglesworth ,Strettle, Hodgson, Borthwick,Farrell,Tomkins.

Doesn't Ashton come looking for the ball though?

Yeah Ashton does come looking for the ball so would work well with Sarries tactics.....

Also it would appear that Saints have players of their own coming through that might make losing Ashton less painful that might have been expected....

I am sure Saints would like to keep Ashton - at the right price. As his agent seems unwilling to discuss a price it is of course irrelevant.

It also may not be in their best interests to try and compete with the rumoured salary offers Ashton has had. They have young wingers coming through, Artemyev whi is improving all the time and is cheap and Paul Diggin is still at the club. Ashtons departure will free up cash to re-inforce other areas where they need more depth - such as second row and loosehead prop.

Fair enough Geordie.

Also in a weird sort of way maybe Ashton wants a fresh start. In the last few months it's hardly been plain sailing for him. The two Tuilagi incidents, the world cup - the dwarf tossing and hotel incident. He's been given a lot of criticism.

Maybe he simply wants to link up with some Northern mates.

"Maybe he simply wants to link up with some Northern mates."

By moving to London

Exactly. Remember Saracen's traditional heartland is also North London.

Sounds like both parties are playing their cards close to their chests at the minute. Could well be that it's all part of the negociations.

Ashton would fit in well at Sarries who like hard working players and his ability to run off the shoulder of the 10 would suit the Sarries style of play. Saints will want to keep one of their best attacking weapons but with the salary cap and Saints being run as a business rather than a millionaires play thing it might not be prudent to invest heavilly in a winger who will be with England for a third of every season.

Does anyone forsee his England position coming under threat by the young pretenders soon?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Does anyone forsee his England position coming under threat by the young pretenders soon?

Not really no. Theres another wing to fill first. It would take a serious dip to see him lose his place.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Id also have serious concerns about the long term viabuility of Bath. Sarries are building something of genuine potential on a firm base and backing it up with results on the pitch.

Really? Bath have invested heavily in training facilities, have plans for the stadium and a good fan base. Why are you concerned? I worry more about the viability of Sarries. Even if they get Copthall built (which hopefully they will) 10,000 won't give them a huge income and I think they spend to the salary cap. If Copthall doesn't go through then I'm not sure what happens to them - the only thing separating them from Wasps then is a South African billionaire.

DaveM wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Id also have serious concerns about the long term viabuility of Bath. Sarries are building something of genuine potential on a firm base and backing it up with results on the pitch.

Really? Bath have invested heavily in training facilities, have plans for the stadium and a good fan base. Why are you concerned? I worry more about the viability of Sarries. Even if they get Copthall built (which hopefully they will) 10,000 won't give them a huge income and I think they spend to the salary cap. If Copthall doesn't go through then I'm not sure what happens to them - the only thing separating them from Wasps then is a South African billionaire.

DaveM that's a load of rubbish. Wasps are not anything like Saracens. Just look at the league table. Wasps are stuck in the mire. Even without the South African billionaire Saracens have Nigel Wray,Nick Leslau and Dominic Silvester.

The ticket sales at Copthall wouldn't be the only revenue stream. Think of merchandise,sponsorship, being back in London would be a massive boost.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

HERSH wrote:How do Sarries operate within the salary cap?

Anyone.

I would imagine its more about bonuses....the basic salary keeps them inline with the wage cap...but then by offering a big bonuses for tries, games played etc they can get round it....

Of course i could be wrong...

Pay their SA players, as well as Stevens and Burger in Rand, which is one of the strongest currencies against the GBP at the moment and goes a long way back home into their home accounts and of course goes outside the cap. This is all of course allegedly!

In terms of fundamentals Wasps are more like Sarries than you'd like to admit. They are both clubs that struggle to get paying punters through the door, and are therefore entirely dependant on the support of their owners. If your South African billionaire pulled out you'd be in massive trouble (as Wray has admitted). You are much better than Wasps on the pitch, but that can change quickly.

Copthall may be in London, but only just. It's not exactly a high profile location or easy to get to, and so I'm not sure why that should drive other revenue streams. Sarries are run by astute people and there must be a business plan, but it's not immediately clear what it is.

beshocked wrote:DaveM I think it's a bit bold to say Bath will clearly be HC contenders over the next 5 years. The money they have needs to be spent well. Look at Toulon. So much money thrown at their squad yet no reward yet.

With Bath and Toulon there seems to be no purpose. Bath don't look like contenders at the moment.

Saracens have made clever signings more than anything. They evidently have good scouts - spotting Spencer,Burger,Joubert,Smith etc.

Why does it always have to be just about the higher wages with Sarries? It's not as if Ashton is signing for Worcester or Newcastle!

We have become a strong contender for trophies, we have London on our doorstep, we have ambitious plans for a new stadium, many other perks.

We seem to forget that it took Sarries 1.5/2 seasons to really get to where they are now after the money came in and most of those players they bought in didn't make instant impacts.

I thought that in that first breakthrough season for Sarries, their best players were De Kock, Saull, Borthwick, Cato, Goode, all who had been there before. It was Venter that seemed to really speed things up and get the best out of his players, both the young ones and the new signings (especially the SA lot, unsurprisingly). I think that this is the biggest difference with Bath, players are there, but are the coaching staff getting the best out of them.....no. These things take time guys, and will take even longer with a muppet like Geech involved, I still stand by the fact that if we had Meehan coaching the squad we have now, we would be in the top 4 again. We have actually gone backwards since he left and thats the reason

Yes Saracens are a little like Wasps in some sense but very different in principal.

Wasps have a much more glittering club history but are going through a rough patch. Saracens are virtually the opposite. Before the recent AP win the only silverware Saracens had won was the 98 tetley's bitter cup - funnily enough they smashed Wasps in that final. Saracens have taken up Wasps' mantle as "London's" strongest club and main challenger to Leicester. Quins will of course contest this point but big game 4 proved who the top dog is still.

Saracens have shown in two and a half seasons they are not a flash in a pan. There is stability in regards to the team. When you are 8 points above 3rd with half of the season gone you can be pleased with the team's progress.

Saracens have plans for sustainability, Wasps have none.

Barnet Copthall might not be high profile but most importantly it will be in London. It will be close enough to Saracen's current supporters and offers a large catchment area.

Being back in London would be huge for Sarries. Trust me it would be. There is so much wealth in London.

You are correct. If they fail to get Barnet Copthall then I don't know what happens. I am confident they will. Too much time and effort has gone into it. Plus Wray is a Barnet resident.