Ashton to Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Morning 606ers, how are you? Any other sad git like me in work today??

Anyway, reading bbc, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16354540.stm, seems Chris is moving. What do people think about that?

For me, I liked seeing Ashton and Hartley in the same side, just knows there'll be some niggle in a game with those two. But as Saracen's a better side, at the moment, and maybe a stricter coach, will that inhibit or strengthen his place in England's side? Reading Mallinder's take on Chris's position, it seems he is not even garunteed a start spot in N'ton side, or is that just shots to make Chris a bit insecure?

Seesm this Vasily Artemyev is a bit of a player!

Oh Happy New Year to all, a bit early I know but not at work tomorrow so won't be on puter!

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:DaveM I think it's a bit bold to say Bath will clearly be HC contenders over the next 5 years. The money they have needs to be spent well. Look at Toulon. So much money thrown at their squad yet no reward yet.

With Bath and Toulon there seems to be no purpose. Bath don't look like contenders at the moment.

Saracens have made clever signings more than anything. They evidently have good scouts - spotting Spencer,Burger,Joubert,Smith etc.

Why does it always have to be just about the higher wages with Sarries? It's not as if Ashton is signing for Worcester or Newcastle!

We have become a strong contender for trophies, we have London on our doorstep, we have ambitious plans for a new stadium, many other perks.

We seem to forget that it took Sarries 1.5/2 seasons to really get to where they are now after the money came in and most of those players they bought in didn't make instant impacts.

I thought that in that first breakthrough season for Sarries, their best players were De Kock, Saull, Borthwick, Cato, Goode, all who had been there before. It was Venter that seemed to really speed things up and get the best out of his players, both the young ones and the new signings (especially the SA lot, unsurprisingly). I think that this is the biggest difference with Bath, players are there, but are the coaching staff getting the best out of them.....no. These things take time guys, and will take even longer with a muppet like Geech involved, I still stand by the fact that if we had Meehan coaching the squad we have now, we would be in the top 4 again. We have actually gone backwards since he left and thats the reason

What people seem to forget about Saracens is that they used to go down the route of Toulon and Bath in the late 90s when Nigel Wray came in. He brought in the likes of Lynagh,Sella,Horan etc. It only resulted in one trophy - the 98 tetley's bitter cup. I agree Bathite it's only when BV came in that Saracens have developed. Money has to be combined with good coaching. You can tell who are good coaches because they bring out the best in their players. The current Sarries coaches have really made excellent players out of the likes of Brits,Burger,Short,Farrell,Joubert.

If coaching is the problem then who should Bath bring in to replace McGeechan? As funny as it might sound how about the man himself - Brendan Venter.

goes a long way back home into their home accounts and of course goes outside the cap

That would still come under the cap and if it was anything that simple the other AP clubs would launch a complaint the PRL's forensic accountants would go in and find it in no time. Sarries would be deducted points. More likely that Sarries have some clever financial chappies who take advantage of the differences in currency values and save money that way. Now that Sarries have a title and a desirable image (from a player stand point) recruiting players will be easier anyway as moving to a successful club with a good ethos is better than going to say an unsuccessful one who are throwing money at the problem. Tigers have been using that gimmick for years.

Sam has recruiting become easier for Sarries? Sarries seem to be throwing huge salaries at every new player. Well according to the media anyway.

Tigers have had that gimmick because they are historically the best club in England. Consistently always fighting for trophies.

Well Sarries seem to be finding it easier to recruit from within England now where as before the only big English name heading their way was Strettle. That was rumoured to be on a chunky contract as well. Borthwick followed on a similarly large deal (if you believe the media). Recent signings of Hodgson, Wigglesworth and Stevens won't have been massive contracts (though not small) and all under considerable pressure from other AP teams. Sarries don't seem to be throwing the cash around as much as some but seem to be recruiting England internationals.

Hodgson was a big deal mate, one of the best fhs in the prem and was in huge demand from Bath and Saints as well. Borthwick also got a big pay rise to go to Sarries, sorry

If you look I clearly say Borthwick did. No ones saying Hodgson wasn't a serious coup, however, had Sarries not had the success they had last season he would have gone to Saints instead. Given the choice wouldn't most fly halfs want to play in the AP winning team that was giving the quality of ball to a young 10 that didn't no how to use it. Hodgson knew he was guarenteed loads of protection and good quality ball with limited short term competition.

Austin Healey chose Tigers over Bath for the presence of the Tigers pack alone (according to his autobiography). The quality of ball and protection on offer were a guarentee for him to show case his skills.

Healey and Hodgson in scared of tackling shock admission! ha

Hodgson's tackling is actually getting much better now. He's never going to be like Wilkinson in the tackling stakes but he has improved. Working with Gustard has this effect. Same with Stringer too.

Bath are going to struggle to sign up English players.Certainly when competing with Tigers,Saints and Sarries.

The players mentioned like Borthwick,Hodgson etc will have large salaries because they are worth it. They are excellent club players who are available almost the whole time.

Sarries have been clever in signing up fringe England players.

I think Sarries will have difficulty holding onto some of their players who will feel they are worth more than they are currently on.

As Leicester have found when you greatly increase a players value it makes it a lot harder to keep hold of them.

As Leicester have found when you greatly increase a players value it makes it a lot harder to keep hold of them..

The key is to try and time it so that it doesn't get to the point where the players contractual value exceeds the value to the club. Hence the release of Moody, Vesty and Hipkiss. Shame to see them go but in hindsight it was a tactically good it sentimentally ruthless move by the Tigers management.

It will be interesting to see if Sarries manage their assets as well.

Wow, Stringer has become a better tackler in the last 2 weeks, wow Sarries are amazing!

^^^ To sam

Good points, will indeed be interesting to see, starting with Britz contract being up for grabs. You got any other big names out of contract this year beshocked

I think Sarries will have a real problem with Brits. He's now 30ish and in prime form. He will be looking for a long term deal for good money so as to guarentee his future. Will Sarries want to gamble on a 30ish year old keeping that level of form pass the age of 33. I think he's 30 now so 31 by the end of the season and a 2 year deal will see him up to 33. Brits will want to mximise his earnings with rugby being a short career and so will more than likely be looking for 3 or more years. It will be a tough question at what age his prime form will fade and will that big contract become more burden than worth.

Sarries have a talented young hooker and probably the most internationally experienced hooker going also in the squad so they aren't massively desperate in that position as well as having a large squad to maintain. Be interesting to see how they handle the issue, especially with the option of releasing Brits and then signing another hooker using the marquee ruling as his replacement.

Talking of hookers and marquee players, apparently we enquired about BDP, but he asked for £500k!! Not sure how that has progressed, but think thats where the rumour about looking for Britz has come from. Hope its not true though, not the type of hooker we need, although a fantastic player of course

How good is young George....

Sam the problem is if Sarries lose Brits they are likely to lose Joubert too.

I think both their contracts run out at the end of the season.

Would not surprise me if both go abroad to France.

It's all about balance.

So, Britz, Joubert, who else' contract is up?

Joubert would follow Brits out? Would he not sign a deal without Brits as the club? If they prioritise their backrow strength and look for a new hooker using the marquee ruling I'm sure Joubert would stay.

Just to confirm what most of us suspected would happen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/16551828.stm

How do Sarries scrape under the salary cap?

I will be making a written complaint, They're cheating the system and its time someone did something about it

HERSH wrote:How do Sarries scrape under the salary cap?

I will be making a written complaint, They're cheating the system and its time someone did something about it

if i was you HERSH i would be quiet about cheating the system,as how did Bath survive before the game went pro when the only occupations in Bath at the time were Farming and sleeping with your sister?

Knackeredknees wrote:

HERSH wrote:How do Sarries scrape under the salary cap?

I will be making a written complaint, They're cheating the system and its time someone did something about it

if i was you HERSH i would be quiet about cheating the system,as how did Bath survive before the game went pro when the only occupations in Bath at the time were Farming and sleeping with your sister?

What are you talking about?

HERSH wrote:How do Sarries scrape under the salary cap?

I will be making a written complaint, They're cheating the system and its time someone did something about it

I have been wondering this myself , Are the Saracens offloading a couple of players ? to make way for Ashton who is probably demanding top dollar.
In 2010 it was reported in the Guardian that the activities of at least one leading Premiership club are being examined and it was strongly hinted that Saracens was that club.
Andy Martin the London Irish chief exec has also been vocal regarding clubs breaking the salary cap.

Saracens breaking the salary cap rules?
Shocking.
Simply shocking.

But I wouldn't single them out.
I would be shocked if many other clubs/regions/franchises/teams - everywhere - weren't dancing around the fringes of the rules as well. Low salaries, but huge stipends on the side from other sources, free or low cost cars, lodging, food, etc.. This kind of thing has been in Rugby forever. Only change from the amateur days is the stakes and money are much, much greater. So is the oversight which makes skirting the rules that much more delicate and creative.

A great example from the amateur days is one season when I first came up it was strongly recommended I should have a flat in a certain building in which some other players lived. I was told in no uncertain terms that I was to pay the rent only if I received a bill, and not to ask. I am still waiting to see one.