Where have all the good centres gone?

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 03 Jan 2012, 1:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

The 6N is almost upon us and reading posts on the make-up of various squads, there seemed to be a common theme for selection headaches: who to put as the centre pairing. The halfback and flyhalf pairing seem to be more or less resolved with the exception of Scotland and whilst the back three don´t have settled combinations in many Home Nations sides, there are plenty of players who can do the job.

But one thing I´ve noticed as a common theme is the conundrum of who to put in the centres.

Ireland has the twin problem of BOD out for the whole 6N and the incumbent D'Arcy being in poor form. It'll require putting in together two new test players which no coach likes to do. So will Kidney opt for the experience of D'Arcy and put in a new player outside him or will he go for two new players who have at least played together at club level? Or a third option of putting in two new players who are new to each other at any level but are the two best centres in form? With a first up game against Wales, they need someone defensively strong to contain the likes of Jamie Roberts crashing through the middle but not so robust that when it comes to attacking, the same tactic is repeated. Who can link well with the danger men like Bowe outside and who can take the pressure off Sexton by adding enough cut and thrust to make keeping the ball in hand an attractive proposition.

Wales seemingly have less concerns in this position. But Gatland has a few players in doubt where they are best served playing. Is Jamie Roberts better at 13 or 12? Is Hook still in contention or is he like Stephen Jones, a player that is best led out to pasture and dealt with definitively? Is the Fanta Menace able to make a heroic comeback or is he merely a shadow of his former self and relying only on past reputation? There are calls like in Ireland to bring in a player who has been successful on the wing (North and Bowe) to fix the problem but is this just a case of moving the problem elsewhere and potentially causing two new areas of concern?

Then England with Tindall out of the equation has a number of options available to them. But sometimes an abundance of choice is not necessarily a good thing. Tuilagi seemed to tick a lot of boxes in the World Cup but Flutey and Hape and a host of others have been out of the equation for different reasons.

Scotland have their own set of problems but one of them seems to be an outside centre who can link up well with the players outside him. De Luca, Ansbro and even Sean Lamont have been touted to join Morrison in attack. But none has been able to hold down this position.

Even France have their difficulties. Rougerie performed for France in the RWC alongside Dusatoir as a consistent player for France. But a guy with the class of Jauzion couldn´t even get a game. Is his time up and is it time to find a new face? Will Phillipe Saint-André bring back some consistency to selection and select a team with a more dynamic approach in the centres?

It seems to varying degrees a problem that all the sides face. Poor old Italy seem to have a problem with the backs in general. But my question is which side seems to best profit from this situation? To me the Wales and Ireland first match up is an unfortunate meeting for Ireland. They won´t have time to have a few games under their belt for their centres and they´ll be up against a centre pairing (whoever will be alongside Jamie Roberts and wherever he goes) who looked very incisive on attack in the World Cup.

England seem to be blessed with plenty of options but need to pick a settled pairing early on and keep playing them. If the new caretaker coach foolishly decides to chop and change selection then they´re going to find that area will be a problem other teams can exploit. Which makes who plays in that area a tough decision to make early on as it needs to be the right one.

AR has a new assistant coach with his own ideas but he won´t come in until after the 6N. Which means probably AR will stick with what he thinks is the best pairing which to my mind doesn´t bode well for Scotland.

by maestegmafia Wed 04 Jan 2012, 3:26 am

From the Independent

Boring Barritt can fill gaping hole in centre of England Saracen's defensive qualities could be well suited to reviving Red Rose fortunes

Hugh Godwin wrote:One of the many moments of teeth-grinding frustration during England's World Cup in the autumn was the selection of Toby Flood for the climactic quarter-final with France. Having careered through most of the previous 18 months with Shontayne Hape as his preferred inside centre, Martin Johnson chose Flood outside Jonny Wilkinson while all that faith in the much-criticised Kiwi convert from rugby league went up in a puff of smoke.

Now Johnson as manager and Wilkinson the fly-half have gone from the England scene and under an interim coaching regime headed by Stuart Lancaster the talk is of renewal and fresh opportunities.

At least two parts of the England midfield last seen in Auckland comprising Wilkinson, Flood and Manu Tuilagi need rejigging and the form of the league champions, Saracens, has made their trio of Charlie Hodgson, Brad Barritt and Owen Farrell prime contenders.

Flood to start at fly-half with the 31-year-old Hodgson as back-up? Farrell, at 20, to receive an audacious nod at No 10 over the pair of them? Tuilagi to be fit to face Scotland on 4 February, considering his dodgy hamstring? The answers supplied by Lancaster when he names his squad of 32 on Wednesday week, and then his team, may shape England's back play for years to come.

Barritt has been rapping on the door almost since he arrived from his native Durban, with an English qualification through both of his parents, to make his Saracens debut as a substitute for Andy Farrell at home to Gloucester in November 2008. Coincidentally, the same fixture is to be played in Watford this afternoon. More significantly, Farrell has since become Saracens' first team coach, helping them to become Premiership runners-up in 2010 and the champions last May, and he is soon to be seconded to England as assistant to Lancaster for the Six Nations' Championship.

"Andy's been very influential on me," says Barritt, while insisting, of course, that England will pick on merit. "You can just see a very confident and winning approach to what he does, and he's had huge success in both codes. He's very inspiring and a confident speaker. And on the flipside, very technically astute and a hard worker as a coach.

"He's a great team man at the end of the day and it's shown in how Saracens have grown over the last three years. Owen has performed brilliantly and there's numerous guys at Sarries who have put their hand up [for England] – seven guys in the backline alone if you include [wing] James Short and [scrum-half] Ben Spencer who have both been playing well."

So will England choose to import Saracens' style: lock, stock and two Farrells? The 6ft 1in 25-year-old Barritt was man of the match last Tuesday when a defensive masterclass shattered the unbeaten league record of the Premiership leaders Harlequins in front of a world record club crowd at Twickenham.

He has played for England's second-string Saxons since 2009, coming closest to full honours when he was called from the Churchill Cup to the senior tour in June 2010, and started in the non-cap match against New Zealand Maori in New Plymouth. He was included in Johnson's squad the following November only to break a finger just before the autumn Tests.

True, when we meet near Barritt's home in Hampstead, north London, the passers-by – the designer-shoppers and poodle-walkers – do not bat an eyelid. This is football territory, if anything. What is more contentious is that even in rugby circles, respect for Saracens' achievements – 27 wins in the last 30 matches, with Barritt almost an ever-present – is often grudging or simply non-existent.

Brian Moore, the former England hooker (and Harlequin), wrote of Tuesday's 19-11 win watched by 82,000 spectators at HQ that "despite having a wealth of talent, Saracens play a very limited and dull game. Their contribution to the festive occasion... was repeated box and high kicks and suffocating defence." An anonymous contributor to a Quins fans' forum sniped that Saracens might as well have had "a postbox" at inside centre.

Barritt says it is as legitimate to win through defence as by any other means – and more likely in big games. The derision ignores the slashing sidesteps of a back three of Short, Dave Strettle, Alex Goode (all English) and the USA's Chris Wyles. "We sometimes get frustrated that we are quoted as boring," Barritt says, "when if Leinster or Leicester had a good away win like we did at the Ospreys recently it would be called clinical."

Back-to-back wins over the Welsh region have made Saracens England's best bet to reach the Heineken Cup quarter-finals and they will spend a week warm-weather training in Cape Town before their crucial pool match with Biarritz on 15 January.

Never chippy, but chipping away at the idea that he can only play one way, Barritt says: "At Saracens it's all about work-rate. If you are making your tackles, getting back on your feet, helping your mates, it gets credited. In attack, it may be running a dummy line or clearing a ruck. But when I started with the Sharks [in his three seasons of Super 14], coached by Dick Muir, it was a run-at-all-costs mentality. I like to think I'd be adaptable to what any coach wants."

Johnno's inside centres: Lack of continuity – and lack of quality?

Riki Flutey

v Pacific Islands, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand (Autumn 2008)

v Italy, Wales, Ireland, France, Scotland (Six Nations 2009)

Tom May

v Argentina (two Tests, May-June 2009)

Shane Geraghty

v Australia, Argentina (Autumn 2009)

Ayoola Erinle

v New Zealand (Autumn 2009)

Toby Flood

v Wales (Six Nations 2010)

Flutey

v Italy, Ireland, Scotland, France (Six Nations 2010)

Shontayne Hape

v Australia (two Tests, June 2010)

v New Zealand, Australia, Samoa, South Africa (Autumn 2010)

v Wales, Italy, France, Scotland, Ireland (Six Nations 2011)

Flutey

v Wales (home, August 2011)

Hape

v Wales (away, August 2011)

Mike Tindall

v Ireland (August 2011)

v Argentina (World Cup 2011)

Hape

v Georgia (World Cup 2011)

Tindall

v Romania, Scotland (World Cup 2011)

Flood

v France (World Cup 2011).

Hugh Godwin

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 04 Jan 2012, 9:40 am

nganboy wrote:Robbie Fruean might get a run for NZ this year.
We need a big fast centre who can off load.

That rules poor Fruean out then I'm afraid. I don't know how many tries he butchered from making the line break (usually from a SBW offload. It'll be interesting to see how Fruean operates without the big man inside him popping up those miracle offloads) by fluffing the final pass or choosing not to pass and getting tackled and losing the ball. Without doubt he's an exciting prospect but has a lot to work on, particularly in defence. Experienced centres like Fourie exposed his defensive frailties all too often. It was a good move not to include him in the AB squad. His time will come but not until he sorts out the weaknesses of his game. At international level, if you can't defend your line and know when to come in and when to go out, you will see the ball coming your way a great deal.

by nganboy Fri 06 Jan 2012, 2:00 am

I was kidding Kia.
I was just showing off the talent that NZ have available. Everyone in NZ knew he wasn't ready / isn't ready. He might get given a go on the end of year tour or he could just get left behind and never heard of again as some other bugger comes up and takes the spot.
It's not like we are in a hurry to get rid of Smith

by gowales Fri 06 Jan 2012, 6:17 am

I wonder what the odds of Kahui moving to Bath to join his mate Steve Donald in a few years is.

by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 06 Jan 2012, 11:53 am

Fair enough nganboy. There were some who were picking him and SBW as an AB combination so just in case...

Many people use 'he's showing great form for his club' as evidence of strength in depth whereas many players are incapable of making that step up. Hodgson is banded about as a replacement for Flood but he has been pants at international level. At least against the top sides.

Anything is possible Kahui. The problem with him is that he is very injury prone. Henry took a gamble with him in the RWC and I would´ve preferred Gear to be honest but he repaid that faith placed in him. When he runs free, he´s a big unit with lots of pace and a real handful.

by beshocked Fri 06 Jan 2012, 12:07 pm

Kia I agree with you about great club form not being the best indication but you have to go on something. The closest that NH sides can get to internationals is the Heineken Cup. I personally believe if a player can perform well against the best sides in Europe they can do it on the international stage too.

by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 06 Jan 2012, 10:59 pm

Some certainly can but others fail to take that step up and it is a step up. Sure when your incumbents are injured or you need someone to fill a position, club form is a good guide. But it´s not a sure indication. Sometimes combinations don't gel or the little bit less time people have on the ball at test level sees them struggle.

No doubt we will see it with some of the new players this 6N for the different sides.

by maestegmafia Sat 07 Jan 2012, 9:33 am

beshocked wrote:Kia I agree with you about great club form not being the best indication but you have to go on something. The closest that NH sides can get to internationals is the Heineken Cup. I personally believe if a player can perform well against the best sides in Europe they can do it on the international stage too.

Would you pick Farrell as a starter for England?

He has technically done very in the Heineken Cup for Sarries.

by Sponsored content

Where have all the good centres gone?

Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?

Re: Where have all the good centres gone?