Is boxing dying??

There have been many people saying that boxing is in a bad state and that maybe the sport is dying there is alot of problems with it at the moment and many people are turning to other sports like UFC. Many people I know think UFC is much better now because of all the problems in boxing like Pacquiao not fighting Mayweather for example. Do people think boxing is dying and on its way out and that in the future UFC will take over?? Lets look at the problems with boxing?



1) to many belts

2) to many weights

3) ppv

4) robberies and hometown decisions

5) the best dont fight the best enough

6) protected champs

7) ducking

8) corrupt promoters

9) boring heavyweight division

10) UFC taking over



These are reasons that make people turn away from boxing. Lets be honest boxing is not as popular as it once was too much ppv it is not on tv enough and sports like UFC offer more. Maybe boxing will not die tomo but in 20 years will it still be around or will people still be interested?? Lets think back to the days when quality fighters like Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, Hagler and Leonard were around boxing was alot bigger then now we have boring fighters like Klitchkos who are good fighters but are killing boxing and have been around far too long. Champs like hopkins and Ward are also very boring fighters hopkins should have retired years ago after his shameful cheating against Calzaghe and he will be knocked ut badly like Jones was if he continues. What do people think is boxing dying out because of all the problems and does it need to change to survive and get people interested??

Waingro is killing boxing with his scythe.

Spoiler:

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Waingro is killing boxing with his scythe.

Spoiler:

Ah, JBW I literally burst out laughing in front of the whole office with that!!

I think your spot on my friend. Boxing is fast becoming a joke closer to WWF than a real sport. Cant disagree with any of the points you have made but would also add that the likes of Sky and their hype machines building up average fighters and overselling fights to con Joe Public into forking out to see the next hype job are also ruining the sport. Case in point the likes of Audley Harrison and David Haye. The sport is a very different one from what I remember watching in the 80s and 90s and at this rate UFC and MMA will be the future.

it's too not to.

I dont know if dying is the right word, but its becoming increasingly marginalised and UFC/MMA is emerging as a real threat to it - especially with regards to attracting new fanbases. UFC is growing while boxing would appear to be shrinking. It may not die but it needs to get its act together if it wants to avoid becoming a marginalised niche sport.

UFC PPV sales are also going down. Signs of the ecomnomic downturn or something else? Interestingly that their biggest names in Lesnar, Silva and GSP are either injured or now retired. I wonder how their shows will sell. More agressive marketing and building new guys into household names I presume. STep forward Bones Jones.

But boxing is not dying.

No, not dying, but it could be so much better off.

Ok, in a genuine response, no I disagree that boxing is dying. UFC is a threat but not really a major one, I think it's just a bit of a fad to be honest that will rival boxing for a tiny bit but eventually die of and never hit the heights, let's not forget, PPV is in UFC as well and slows the progression rate of it down also.

But boxing most certainly does itself no favours, as all is well documented on here. Belts, governing bodies, yada yada.

azania wrote:UFC PPV sales are also going down. Signs of the ecomnomic downturn or something else? Interestingly that their biggest names in Lesnar, Silva and GSP are either injured or now retired. I wonder how their shows will sell. More agressive marketing and building new guys into household names I presume. STep forward Bones Jones.

But boxing is not dying.

Increasing illegal streaming accounts for much of it

Also let's not kid ourselves, the MMA is barely run much differently than Boxing, we have our governing bodies they have the UFC and Cagerage and all this nonsense, where they have to be with a set company in orsder to fight another set company, in other words basically in house fighting.

Brock Lesnar got a Heavyweight world title shot after how many fights? Would anything like this have happened in boxing, no at the very least you need to prove that you are half decent and win a few fights.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:UFC PPV sales are also going down. Signs of the ecomnomic downturn or something else? Interestingly that their biggest names in Lesnar, Silva and GSP are either injured or now retired. I wonder how their shows will sell. More agressive marketing and building new guys into household names I presume. STep forward Bones Jones.

But boxing is not dying.

Increasing illegal streaming accounts for much of it

I dont think it has that much of an effect to be honest. When Lesnar fights PPV sales are over or near the 1m mark. When Silva or GSP fight its over 750k. If those guys are not headlining shows, ppv sales are less that 500k. They are carrying a huge marketting push for Bones Jones to make him a star primarily to increase PPV sales.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Also let's not kid ourselves, the MMA is barely run much differently than Boxing, we have our governing bodies they have the UFC and Cagerage and all this nonsense, where they have to be with a set company in orsder to fight another set company, in other words basically in house fighting.

Brock Lesnar got a Heavyweight world title shot after how many fights? Would anything like this have happened in boxing, no at the very least you need to prove that you are half decent and win a few fights.

Would have to disagree. MMA/UFC seems to be run very differently to boxing.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:UFC PPV sales are also going down. Signs of the ecomnomic downturn or something else? Interestingly that their biggest names in Lesnar, Silva and GSP are either injured or now retired. I wonder how their shows will sell. More agressive marketing and building new guys into household names I presume. STep forward Bones Jones.

But boxing is not dying.

Increasing illegal streaming accounts for much of it

I dont think it has that much of an effect to be honest. When Lesnar fights PPV sales are over or near the 1m mark. When Silva or GSP fight its over 750k. If those guys are not headlining shows, ppv sales are less that 500k. They are carrying a huge marketting push for Bones Jones to make him a star primarily to increase PPV sales.

Just going off some articles I read which were highlighting the effect streaming/filesharing etc has on the film/music/ppv industries. Would appear to quite significant according to the article.

I'll always love boxing but am getting increasingly frustrated with it and Waingro list the reasons why.

This is the first time MMA has been mentioned without numerous childish remarks, i'm impressed

MMA and UFC in particular will grow and big reason will be people opting for a UFC PPV over boxing as there is simply more value for money and most big boxing events have terrible undercards so if the main fight is a dud then people feel short changed.

Although UFC is just one organisation it is THE organistaion with all the others falling way, way short. Basically all fighters yearn to fight in the UFC and try impress and make a name for themselves in other organisations with the hope the UFC snaps them up.

The UFC have probably 95% of the best fighters and once contracted in the UFC, the fighters do not decide who to fight so there can be no ducking and the UFC do make a real effort to consistently make the best fight the best i.e. no places for people like Chavez Jr!

I can't see anyway boxing will recover and will either stay as it is or get worse. Too many people calling the shots and wanting to be boss and ego's clashing.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:UFC PPV sales are also going down. Signs of the ecomnomic downturn or something else? Interestingly that their biggest names in Lesnar, Silva and GSP are either injured or now retired. I wonder how their shows will sell. More agressive marketing and building new guys into household names I presume. STep forward Bones Jones.

But boxing is not dying.

Increasing illegal streaming accounts for much of it

I dont think it has that much of an effect to be honest. When Lesnar fights PPV sales are over or near the 1m mark. When Silva or GSP fight its over 750k. If those guys are not headlining shows, ppv sales are less that 500k. They are carrying a huge marketting push for Bones Jones to make him a star primarily to increase PPV sales.

Just going off some articles I read which were highlighting the effect streaming/filesharing etc has on the film/music/ppv industries. Would appear to quite significant according to the article.

No doubt it has an impact. But that impact is lowered when a 'name' is on the card. Heck PPV sales went up when Kimbo appeared on one of the cards. No doubt streams also increased.

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Also let's not kid ourselves, the MMA is barely run much differently than Boxing, we have our governing bodies they have the UFC and Cagerage and all this nonsense, where they have to be with a set company in orsder to fight another set company, in other words basically in house fighting.

Brock Lesnar got a Heavyweight world title shot after how many fights? Would anything like this have happened in boxing, no at the very least you need to prove that you are half decent and win a few fights.

Would have to disagree. MMA/UFC seems to be run very differently to boxing.

You're right, I worded it wrong, but what I meant is, it's not really all that much more perfect a system in the same as boxing. If that makes sense.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Also let's not kid ourselves, the MMA is barely run much differently than Boxing, we have our governing bodies they have the UFC and Cagerage and all this nonsense, where they have to be with a set company in orsder to fight another set company, in other words basically in house fighting.

Brock Lesnar got a Heavyweight world title shot after how many fights? Would anything like this have happened in boxing, no at the very least you need to prove that you are half decent and win a few fights.

Would have to disagree. MMA/UFC seems to be run very differently to boxing.

You're right, I worded it wrong, but what I meant is, it's not really all that much more perfect a system in the same as boxing. If that makes sense.

I prefer the UFC model to the current state of boxing I have to say. The UFC is a bit like a large S6 style tournament. It generally, though not always, attracts the top talents to it and they fight amongst themselves. I can appreciate people not liking the sport, but in terms of the structure I think its far more satisfying to fans. You also have the fighters on contracted to the company, which I think works better than having individual promters all with individual self serving interest.

Valero's Conscience wrote:I'll always love boxing but am getting increasingly frustrated with it and Waingro list the reasons why.

This is the first time MMA has been mentioned without numerous childish remarks, i'm impressed

MMA and UFC in particular will grow and big reason will be people opting for a UFC PPV over boxing as there is simply more value for money and most big boxing events have terrible undercards so if the main fight is a dud then people feel short changed.

Although UFC is just one organisation it is THE organistaion with all the others falling way, way short. Basically all fighters yearn to fight in the UFC and try impress and make a name for themselves in other organisations with the hope the UFC snaps them up.

The UFC have probably 95% of the best fighters and once contracted in the UFC, the fighters do not decide who to fight so there can be no ducking and the UFC do make a real effort to consistently make the best fight the best i.e. no places for people like Chavez Jr!I can't see anyway boxing will recover and will either stay as it is or get worse. Too many people calling the shots and wanting to be boss and ego's clashing.

I wonder how that will change however when the money changes, UFC guys don't earn that much in comparison to boxers, once there self worth rises to the top that will most likely change. Hopefully for UFC's sake it won't.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Also let's not kid ourselves, the MMA is barely run much differently than Boxing, we have our governing bodies they have the UFC and Cagerage and all this nonsense, where they have to be with a set company in orsder to fight another set company, in other words basically in house fighting.

Brock Lesnar got a Heavyweight world title shot after how many fights? Would anything like this have happened in boxing, no at the very least you need to prove that you are half decent and win a few fights.

Would have to disagree. MMA/UFC seems to be run very differently to boxing.

You're right, I worded it wrong, but what I meant is, it's not really all that much more perfect a system in the same as boxing. If that makes sense.

Agreed Alex, the UFC are doing and have done a superb job in raising the profile of MMA and are doing their best for the sport but they have so much power that if they wanted to start doing dodgy things i.e. acting like the WBC, then no one can stop them.

And yes, unless you're at the top, pay is poo in MMA.

Also, the UFC should be commended in that every fighter on their roster (they have about 400) has full medical and dental insurance covering events inside and outside the ring paid fully by the UFC. This was done last year off their own back and is commendable.

Valero's Conscience wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Also let's not kid ourselves, the MMA is barely run much differently than Boxing, we have our governing bodies they have the UFC and Cagerage and all this nonsense, where they have to be with a set company in orsder to fight another set company, in other words basically in house fighting.

Brock Lesnar got a Heavyweight world title shot after how many fights? Would anything like this have happened in boxing, no at the very least you need to prove that you are half decent and win a few fights.

Would have to disagree. MMA/UFC seems to be run very differently to boxing.

You're right, I worded it wrong, but what I meant is, it's not really all that much more perfect a system in the same as boxing. If that makes sense.

Agreed Alex, the UFC are doing and have done a superb job in raising the profile of MMA and are doing their best for the sport but they have so much power that if they wanted to start doing dodgy things i.e. acting like the WBC, then no one can stop them.

And yes, unless you're at the top, pay is poo in MMA.

Also, the UFC should be commended in that every fighter on their roster (they have about 400) has full medical and dental insurance covering events inside and outside the ring paid fully by the UFC. This was done last year off their own back and is commendable.

Can't see Bob arum doing that.

Valero's Conscience wrote:

And yes, unless you're at the top, pay is poo in MMA.

Also, the UFC should be commended in that every fighter on their roster (they have about 400) has full medical and dental insurance covering events inside and outside the ring paid fully by the UFC. This was done last year off their own back and is commendable.

That is commendable, but I wonder if they will continue to do this should their roster reach 4000 and not 400.

Anyway, how much does an 'average' MMA person earn? I am interested.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Valero's Conscience wrote:

And yes, unless you're at the top, pay is poo in MMA.

Also, the UFC should be commended in that every fighter on their roster (they have about 400) has full medical and dental insurance covering events inside and outside the ring paid fully by the UFC. This was done last year off their own back and is commendable.

That is commendable, but I wonder if they will continue to do this should their roster reach 4000 and not 400.

Anyway, how much does an 'average' MMA person earn? I am interested.

The system incorparates alot of bonuses for fight of the night, knock out of the night etc and some of the top fighters get additioanl promotional/ppv shares but in terms of basic salary for fight the very top stars would usually earn between 200k-300k per fight. But this could increase depending on other shares/bonuses/revenues.

I dont think the UFC will overstretch its roster because it markets its policy is to keep the top fighters there and it isnt too interested in the rest. If you dont make it there you are released from your contract and someone else is signed up.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Valero's Conscience wrote:

And yes, unless you're at the top, pay is poo in MMA.

Also, the UFC should be commended in that every fighter on their roster (they have about 400) has full medical and dental insurance covering events inside and outside the ring paid fully by the UFC. This was done last year off their own back and is commendable.

That is commendable, but I wonder if they will continue to do this should their roster reach 4000 and not 400.

Anyway, how much does an 'average' MMA person earn? I am interested.

Unsure as to the average one, but the highest pay day ever was for BRock Lesnar for $1 million dollars. Comparing that to being the biggest ever payday to Tim Bradley beating up a blown up stoned lightweight in Casamayor for $1.2 mill it's not good. Generally speaking I think the average sized fighters only earn around in the tens of thousands per fight.

manos de piedra wrote:
The system incorparates alot of bonuses for fight of the night, knock out of the night etc and some of the top fighters get additioanl promotional/ppv shares but in terms of basic salary for fight the very top stars would usually earn between 200k-300k per fight. But this could increase depending on other shares/bonuses/revenues.

Thanks manos. What about guys underneath this level though? The reason I ask is someone on a previous thread (may of been prettyboykev but I can't remember) said that John Simpson took home £4000 after his British title fight with Lee Selby and I wanted to see the comparison.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:
The system incorparates alot of bonuses for fight of the night, knock out of the night etc and some of the top fighters get additioanl promotional/ppv shares but in terms of basic salary for fight the very top stars would usually earn between 200k-300k per fight. But this could increase depending on other shares/bonuses/revenues.

Thanks manos. What about guys underneath this level though? The reason I ask is someone on a previous thread (may of been prettyboykev but I can't remember) said that John Simpson took home £4000 after his British title fight with Lee Selby and I wanted to see the comparison.

Its kind of done relative to where you are fighting on the the card in question. In terms of base salary without any bonuses, headliners would be the 200k-300k bracket, mid carders would be the 30k-50k, bottom carders would be the 10k-20k bracket.

But if you win a couple of mid carders then you will generally find yourself topping a card so the pay is essentially related to both performance and results.

manos de piedra wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:
The system incorparates alot of bonuses for fight of the night, knock out of the night etc and some of the top fighters get additioanl promotional/ppv shares but in terms of basic salary for fight the very top stars would usually earn between 200k-300k per fight. But this could increase depending on other shares/bonuses/revenues.

Thanks manos. What about guys underneath this level though? The reason I ask is someone on a previous thread (may of been prettyboykev but I can't remember) said that John Simpson took home £4000 after his British title fight with Lee Selby and I wanted to see the comparison.

Its kind of done relative to where you are fighting on the the card in question. In terms of base salary without any bonuses, headliners would be the 200k-300k bracket, mid carders would be the 30k-50k, bottom carders would be the 10k-20k bracket.

But if you win a couple of mid carders then you will generally find yourself topping a card so the pay is essentially related to both performance and results.

Interesting stuff, thanks. When you look at this way, fighting a few 'mid-carders' in a year, even you don't make it to headlining a card would still give you a decent living then. I would suggest more than you would get in boxing? It puts poor John Simpsons efforts into perspective.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Valero's Conscience wrote:

And yes, unless you're at the top, pay is poo in MMA.

Also, the UFC should be commended in that every fighter on their roster (they have about 400) has full medical and dental insurance covering events inside and outside the ring paid fully by the UFC. This was done last year off their own back and is commendable.

That is commendable, but I wonder if they will continue to do this should their roster reach 4000 and not 400.

Anyway, how much does an 'average' MMA person earn? I am interested.

Unsure as to the average one, but the highest pay day ever was for BRock Lesnar for $1 million dollars. Comparing that to being the biggest ever payday to Tim Bradley beating up a blown up stoned lightweight in Casamayor for $1.2 mill it's not good. Generally speaking I think the average sized fighters only earn around in the tens of thousands per fight.

It's way more than that for the few big stars, GSP has said he earns between $4-5 million per fight, Lesnar get's at least that but maybe more, he earned $5.5 million in total for his fight with Velasquez last year.

Lesnar was getting circa $400k up front then a percentage of PPV sales, I think he sold about 1 million PPV so probably gets $5 per PPV.

Anderson Silva would get the same kind of money and now Jon Jones but the rest is less.

UFC pay structure is quite confusing but i'll give it a shot:

Total pay is is very secretive as they get 'back locker room' pay days so no one unless on the inside really knows. This seems to suit the fighters rather than everyone knowing what they earn.

Every fighter has different deals, and not just better deals because they're exciting, for example Michael Bisping as he's the only decent UK fighter and they need someone to promote in the UK, he gets about $400k a fight, which is sometimes far more than people better than him!

Like others have said there are bonuses every night ranging from $35-100,000 and they can also have 7 sponsors I believe on there shorts which for the top starts I believe is worth about $250k a fight.

Disclosed pay is normally far below their actual pay, for example you'll see a fighter who going by disclosed pay only has earned $300k in the last 2 years but just bought a new Ferrari so you know they are doing much better!

Regarding what UFC fighters ear. As manos says....the bonusses etc. But the range of purse is huge. Lesnar earned over $1m for his last fight. But some undercard fighters got less than $10k. No wonder Dana can afford to pay medical insurance.

Then again, I wonder how much 6 round undercard fighters earn on big fight nights when the house fighter is the main draw? A pitance I'd presume.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:
The system incorparates alot of bonuses for fight of the night, knock out of the night etc and some of the top fighters get additioanl promotional/ppv shares but in terms of basic salary for fight the very top stars would usually earn between 200k-300k per fight. But this could increase depending on other shares/bonuses/revenues.

Thanks manos. What about guys underneath this level though? The reason I ask is someone on a previous thread (may of been prettyboykev but I can't remember) said that John Simpson took home £4000 after his British title fight with Lee Selby and I wanted to see the comparison.

Its kind of done relative to where you are fighting on the the card in question. In terms of base salary without any bonuses, headliners would be the 200k-300k bracket, mid carders would be the 30k-50k, bottom carders would be the 10k-20k bracket.

But if you win a couple of mid carders then you will generally find yourself topping a card so the pay is essentially related to both performance and results.

Interesting stuff, thanks. When you look at this way, fighting a few 'mid-carders' in a year, even you don't make it to headlining a card would still give you a decent living then. I would suggest more than you would get in boxing? It puts poor John Simpsons efforts into perspective.

If you are at the lower end of the pay scale you have the luxury of being on a contract which might give you 3/4 fights. And if you win those your earnings will increase substanitally. However at the top level the money is rubbish compared to the boxing superstars. Brock Lesner was their highest ever earning fighter for one year with a reported 5.5 million in earnings nearly all things consideed. Pacquaio or Mayweather could make double that for a single fight just on purse split alone.

Bu with the UFC, each fighter is under contract to the organisation so the organisation controls who they fight and when. This makes it pretty straightforward to make the top guys face each other. In boxing everyone has their own promoters and managers looking out for their own interests and selecting who they fight which makes it far more difficult.

How can something that is not alive, die?

johnson2 wrote:How can something that is not alive, die?

Boxing is alive, it is in all of us...

I am not familiar at all with UFC or what kind of threat it carries to boxing, but all sports are in some ways competitng with each other for attention. Theres not a doubt in my mind that boxing has fallen into a terrible state of disrepair. As others have said before me, does this constitute dying? Maybe, maybe not. Certainly the current state of affairs was hard to imagine when I began to follow boxing so in that regard maybe it has been dying slowly over the decades for a whole manner of reasons. Its had to envisage the golden eras of yesteryear coming back. The interest in the sport is dwindling and from what I can see its not really being replenished by a new fan bae. Taking boxing off mainstream tv has had a devastating impact and its current set up makes it difficult to attract new fans. I am not sure as to what the future for boxing holds over the next twent, thirty, forty years. Will it continue to be marginalised? Perhaps its only when the sport is really in the doldrums that the changes neccessary to stop the rot will occur.

Has been dying for the last 100 years wll be dying for the next 100.

No, I think its doing well globally and thats in part thanks to the internet. Many countries have good, regular boxing shows.

Of course boxing has many problems but most have always existed. Its had competitors in the past like Wrestling and will be able to continue alongside UFC/MMA.
There have been various different belts on offer at different times in boxing though the current fragmentation and multi champs is a sick joke. Its not a dieing sport but could do witha radical shake-up - trouble is there doesn't seem anyway to do that. The Ali Act was a good start but hasn't really been built upon.

WelshDevilRob wrote:No, I think its doing well globally and thats in part thanks to the internet. Many countries have good, regular boxing shows.

Of course boxing has many problems but most have always existed. Its had competitors in the past like Wrestling and will be able to continue alongside UFC/MMA.
There have been various different belts on offer at different times in boxing though the current fragmentation and multi champs is a sick joke. Its not a dieing sport but could do witha radical shake-up - trouble is there doesn't seem anyway to do that. The Ali Act was a good start but hasn't really been built upon.

Doing well compared to when? To what era? I cant think of when its ever been in a worse state or less mainstream.

Neither can I.

And Windy's been there before the gloved era began...

Colonial Lion wrote:

WelshDevilRob wrote:No, I think its doing well globally and thats in part thanks to the internet. Many countries have good, regular boxing shows.

Of course boxing has many problems but most have always existed. Its had competitors in the past like Wrestling and will be able to continue alongside UFC/MMA.
There have been various different belts on offer at different times in boxing though the current fragmentation and multi champs is a sick joke. Its not a dieing sport but could do witha radical shake-up - trouble is there doesn't seem anyway to do that. The Ali Act was a good start but hasn't really been built upon.

Doing well compared to when? To what era? I cant think of when its ever been in a worse state or less mainstream.

Its doing well in emerging countries across Africa and Asia. S.Africa have regular shows and are grooming a few boxers for championship fights.

In certain countries it's thriving. Such as Germany and Poland, however the reasons they are thriving there were mainly docuemented yesterday and I'm not sure if it's actually a good thing they are thriving in the manner they are or rather for the reasons they are in those countries.

I think more than UFC/MMA its the lack of genuine talent coming through. There are no RJJs, Tysons or SRR to look to and the current crop of champions are protected, loathsome people.

Only 20 years ago Britain was able to look to Eubank, Bruno and Hamed who aren't even remembered as greats but they would be in amongst the titles now and Eubank would probably clean up the middle weights.

It seems that young people just don't love getting punched anymore.

When Bob Arum goes i think we may see a bit of an improvement. For me, i absolutely love the sport and have been watching from the ages of about 5, or as far back as i can remember. I think boxing IS dying, and it is doing it rapidly.

As stated. Too many bloody belts. Super Champ, WBC, WBA, IBF, IBO etc etc. Its a joke. Stupid hometown decisions ie. Alexander vs Mathysee, Peterson vs Khan, Helenius vs Chisora to name a few. Judges being "brought" by promoters ala Pacquiao vs Marquez 3.

Fights not being made when they should be such as Pacquiao vs Mayweather, and, more importantly to me, Chavez vs Martinez.

This scenario between Chavez vs Martinez has got me hating boxing to the MAX right now.

I actually hope Martinez sends Chavez into permanent retirement, and that in doing so, he retires Arum.

Arum/Chavez are jokes.

d260005p wrote:I actually hope Martinez sends Chavez into permanent retirement, and that in doing so, he retires Arum.

Arum/Chavez are jokes.

Why? Its hardly Chavez's fault the WBC decided to create that ridiculous belt. If not Chavez, another boxer (Mexican) would have that belt.

I hope they fight though. Not sold on Martinez to be honest. Definately not sold on Chavez.

When I first started watching boxing in the late 80's the sport had a iconic figure as it's focal point. Then throughout the 90's we were spoilt with the domestic scene, including great nights with Benn, Eubank, Watson, Hamed, Calzaghe, Bruno, Collins etc etc and generally there was a reasonably competitive heavyweight division, including Lewis who obviously helped maintain and stimulate interest in the UK. I just don't see the same ingredients being around right now and it is a shame. Azania is right, we shouldn't be blinkered and ignore the growth in other regions, but if you take a wider brushstroke, the sport seems to be stuck in a rut these days. I have found my enjoyment in watching boxing slipping somewhat over recent years and I find that a shame as I look back with fond memories of earlier experiences watching it.

There are great fighters around these days and there will be when/if my kids decide they want to follow the sport, but it is hard to swallow the politics that surround the sport these days. The reasons have been done to death on 606v2 but it hard to see an end to it if the situation remains the same. Innovations like the Super 6 are to be commended but how many 'new' fans actually get to see them. New directions such as Box****** can only be harmful to the growth of the sport in it's key regions and I find that saddening.

It is not all doom and gloom, and maybe boxing will reach a point where deep introspection becomes the only viable option and the sport has a metaphorical 'new start'. I just hope it is not too marginalised when it reaches that point.

azania wrote:

d260005p wrote:I actually hope Martinez sends Chavez into permanent retirement, and that in doing so, he retires Arum.

Arum/Chavez are jokes.

Why? Its hardly Chavez's fault the WBC decided to create that ridiculous belt. If not Chavez, another boxer (Mexican) would have that belt.

I hope they fight though. Not sold on Martinez to be honest. Definately not sold on Chavez.

Chavez has to be the biggest paper-champ in history. He is riding his dads name for sure. On top of that he comes out with "Margarito" lines such as "i will die in the ring against Manfredo Jr the Power Puncher".

Its depressing and very annoying.

Mexico will rule the WBC forever i think lol

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:When I first started watching boxing in the late 80's the sport had a iconic figure as it's focal point. Then throughout the 90's we were spoilt with the domestic scene, including great nights with Benn, Eubank, Watson, Hamed, Calzaghe, Bruno, Collins etc etc and generally there was a reasonably competitive heavyweight division, including Lewis who obviously helped maintain and stimulate interest in the UK. I just don't see the same ingredients being around right now and it is a shame. Azania is right, we shouldn't be blinkered and ignore the growth in other regions, but if you take a wider brushstroke, the sport seems to be stuck in a rut these days. I have found my enjoyment in watching boxing slipping somewhat over recent years and I find that a shame as I look back with fond memories of earlier experiences watching it.

There are great fighters around these days and there will be when/if my kids decide they want to follow the sport, but it is hard to swallow the politics that surround the sport these days. The reasons have been done to death on 606v2 but it hard to see an end to it if the situation remains the same. Innovations like the Super 6 are to be commended but how many 'new' fans actually get to see them. New directions such as Box****** can only be harmful to the growth of the sport in it's key regions and I find that saddening.

It is not all doom and gloom, and maybe boxing will reach a point where deep introspection becomes the only viable option and the sport has a metaphorical 'new start'. I just hope it is not too marginalised when it reaches that point.

Interesting post.

d260005p wrote:

azania wrote:

d260005p wrote:I actually hope Martinez sends Chavez into permanent retirement, and that in doing so, he retires Arum.

Arum/Chavez are jokes.

Why? Its hardly Chavez's fault the WBC decided to create that ridiculous belt. If not Chavez, another boxer (Mexican) would have that belt.

I hope they fight though. Not sold on Martinez to be honest. Definately not sold on Chavez.

Chavez has to be the biggest paper-champ in history. He is riding his dads name for sure. On top of that he comes out with "Margarito" lines such as "i will die in the ring against Manfredo Jr the Power Puncher".

Its depressing and very annoying.

Mexico will rule the WBC forever i think lol

Add Povietkin of whatever his name is. You know, that so called WBA world champ defending against the HoFer in Evander.

I think anyone that claims MMA is going to be a fad is deluding themselves. I also wholly disagree with the claim that boxing and MMA fans are completely different - there are many fight fans that are, or have the potential to be, partial to both. So, while boxing is constantly struggling to make good fights, MMA fighters in the UFC, and other organisations, are constantly matched in exciting bouts. I was reading about the Martinez/Chavez Jr situation today, and it really struck me how pathetic it is that a relatively high profile 'world champion' like Chavez Jr can hold on to his position while a recognised division leader like Martinez can be fobbed off. Imagine this happening in any other sport? It really is utterly farcical. And it's just one of many examples.

I, like many others, put more stock in the Ring rankings, and particularly the belts. Ring magazine give belts on merit and make common sense decisions (for the most part) on rankings. Funnily enough, a similar common sense approach to good match making is pretty much how the UFC actually choose their fights. Of course the UFC are in the process of building a monopoly, and this has scope for corruption, but, as they hold most of the star power they are in a position to make quick and sensible decisions concerning matchmaking. With it's multiple governing bodies, this is a luxury not enjoyed at all by boxing fans.

People mention the pay for MMA fighters. But, who cares? We boxing fans seem to constantly get caught up in debating the money side of the game. It's as if there's not enough actual exciting fights to keep us talking. The fact of the matter is that more and more guys are going into MMA, and that the perception of low pay compared to boxing doesn't seem to be stopping an ever increasing flow of higher quality MMA fighters. Think about all those top level collegiate wrestlers that previously had no form of professional outlet (other than fake wrestling) who can now go into the paid MMA ranks - the same goes for high level Jiujitsu practitioners. They are attracted at the prospect of competing at a high level and earning money, but they're not comparing themselves to Pacquiao, Mayweather, or Cotto, etc. Also, the purses in MMA are only going to get bigger, if the sport stays on anything like it's current trajectory.

Is boxing dying? I think dying is a strong word. But I do think it's being marginalised. I do think some form of major revolt against the governing bodies will be required in order to keep it in a relevant position in the sporting world. I'm delighted when I hear things like Martinez dumping his WBC belt and stating that recognition from the Ring in far more important. I love it when Mayweather doesn't bother paying the sanctioning fees because he doesn't value the belt. Behaviour like this needs to happen en masse. Boxers and promoters could act together to marginalise the power of organisations such as the WBC - if the top guys (and some top up-and-comers) continually refused to pay the sanctioning fees then governing bodies would soon become irrelevant. I think something along these lines is the way to go.

The comparison to MMA/UFC is important because, by making the contrast, it highlights many of the things that are wrong with boxing concerning matchmaking and the merits of 'champions'. I've been a huge boxing fan for years, but I also compete in Judo and have done since I was was a wee boy (I suppose this has lent me a better understanding of the grappling side of MMA) - I've tried to resist for ages, but have found myself consistently turned off by situations in boxing (Chavez/Martinez, Khan/Peterson, Hopkins/Dawson, Pacquiao/Marquez etc, etc), and more and more turned on to highly competitive MMA match ups. I think I'll always be a boxing fan first, but I think there can be no doubt that the sport is on a downward trajectory (for many of the reason mentioned in the OP), and that this has only been highlighted by the growth of a rival fighting sport.