January 17th 2012!

by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 11 Jan 2012, 7:55 pm

On the 17th Muhummed Ali turns 70 years of age. The most influential sportsman of the century will be celebrating a landmark. I just wondered what 606 v2 will do to recognise the great day. As boxing fans I think it would be a nice touch to make some sort of gesture for the great man.

I suggest, those who can, post an article relating to Ali on whatever they want.

Any suggestions would be very welcomed.

by Waingro Wed 11 Jan 2012, 8:03 pm

Ali was the best boxer of all time imo

by **Seanusarrilius** Wed 11 Jan 2012, 8:08 pm

Sugar Ray Robinson fans disagree, but Ali was up there that's for sure.

The perfect sports star: talent, looks and personality. A mixture of qualities never seen in boxing before and never equalled since.

by No1Jonesy Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:12 pm

I wouldn't say Ali was the most influential sportsman of the century. Maybe up there but not at the top

I would place Pele above Ali. Solely on fan base andmore kids playing football wanting to grow up being like Pele then a boxer like Ali....

by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:27 pm

No1Jonesy wrote:I wouldn't say Ali was the most influential sportsman of the century. Maybe up there but not at the top

I would place Pele above Ali. Solely on fan base andmore kids playing football wanting to grow up being like Pele then a boxer like Ali....

I would say Ali is is the most influential sportsman for me, Jonesy. More people would want to play football than box regardless of Pele and/or Muhammed Ali simply because of the different status and participation levels of football. Pele would be better known in South America but I am not so sure he would in every continent. He was a great footballer but Ali was about so much more than sport, I am not sure Pele has that same gravitas away from the game.

On a side note, my twins were born on the 17th January last year. I didn't even realise they shared a birthday with the Greatest.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:33 pm

Why would Ray Robinson disagree?????

How can Pele be more influential than this guy???

by **Fists of Fury** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:35 pm

No way on earth is Pele more influential than Ali, agree with you Truss.

by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:36 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:No way on earth is Pele more influential than Ali, agree with you Truss.

I said it first.

by **Fists of Fury** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:37 pm

My apologies, Tino, I agree with you too, if that makes it any better?

by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:38 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:My apologies, Tino, I agree with you too, if that makes it any better?

Much.

by **Fists of Fury** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:40 pm

On a side note, my sisters twins were born on January the 17th, too.

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:42 pm

I prefere to remember Ali as the fighter rather than the political/race activist

Pele did a lot of work im poor countries mind through football and his status

Not saying he was more influential but being as football is the most watched and global sport in the world by a zillion miles I wouldnt dismiss the idea straight away through boxing bias

by No1Jonesy Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:43 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
No1Jonesy wrote:I wouldn't say Ali was the most influential sportsman of the century. Maybe up there but not at the top

I would place Pele above Ali. Solely on fan base andmore kids playing football wanting to grow up being like Pele then a boxer like Ali....

I would say Ali is is the most influential sportsman for me, Jonesy. More people would want to play football than box regardless of Pele and/or Muhammed Ali simply because of the different status and participation levels of football. Pele would be better known in South America but I am not so sure he would in every continent. He was a great footballer but Ali was about so much more than sport, I am not sure Pele has that same gravitas away from the game.

On a side note, my twins were born on the 17th January last year. I didn't even realise they shared a birthday with the Greatest.

Pele was world renound through world cups and being associated through television screens - I would say more people saw him play football then any of Ali's fights and as massive a boxing fan i am the sport does not touch the figures that world cups see.

Additionally many a people call an over head kick a 'pele' such is the esteem people have for this man

As good a boxer was I have no admiration for Ali whatsoever but can see why people do. Was he the 1st black champion? No - was he gracious to oppononets - No, was he the only person to get people interested in boxing? No, was he racist? Yes, Did he join a racist movement? Yes, Did he throw good favour back in so called friends faces? Yes?

What on earth could he influence anyone to do?

Pele - possibly the greatest footballer to ever grace the earth
Ali - Possibly the best Heavyweight to grace the earth

Pele - Influnced millions of kids growing up in being footballers and still does to this day
Ali - well I don't think the figures would be the same but would not deny his influence

Pele - never joined a racist movement
Ali - Joined a racist movement

Pele - never threw the generosity back in his frineds faces when was in trouble
Ali - Well we know the Frazier story

Pele - plenty of work for charity
Ali - Pplenty of work for charity

Between the two and there actions I'd follow Pele life over Ali anyday

by Mind the windows Tino. Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:43 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:On a side note, my sisters twins were born on January the 17th, too.

Are you my brother-in-law then?

by Rowley Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:45 pm

Jonesy you forgot Pele has also helped people who suffer from erectile disfunction, don't see Mr so called greatest doing that.

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:46 pm

rowley wrote:Jonesy you forgot Pele has also helped people who suffer from erectile disfunction, don't see Mr so called greatest doing that.

Selling viagra to your mates does not count. Good money in it though Very Happy

by No1Jonesy Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:47 pm

rowley wrote:Jonesy you forgot Pele has also helped people who suffer from erectile disfunction, don't see Mr so called greatest doing that.

Sorry fella I didn't know about that, but glad he helped you out

Pele - what a guy!

But i'm not even saying he is the most influential sportsman he's just an example I would put above Ali Hug

by **Fists of Fury** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:48 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:On a side note, my sisters twins were born on January the 17th, too.

Are you my brother-in-law then?

I hope not Wink

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:50 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Fists of Fury wrote:On a side note, my sisters twins were born on January the 17th, too.

Are you my brother-in-law then?

I hope not

Its like the Jeremy Kyle show on here today...

DNA test fellas?

by **HumanWindmill** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 1:59 pm

There was a time in the mid sixties when you could scarcely pick up a newspaper or magazine without Ali's being in there somewhere.

It wasn't the case ( in Britain, anyway, ) with Pele.

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:10 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:There was a time in the mid sixties when you could scarcely pick up a newspaper or magazine without Ali's being in there somewhere.

It wasn't the case ( in Britain, anyway, ) with Pele.

Slightly different mind as the footballing countries of Britian had their own idols as its such a global sport (John Charles for Wales, Bobby Charlton for England etc) where as Britain and other nations didnt really have a global star in boxing

The sports are like chalk and cheese so I guess its hard to compare the influence of Ali and Pele

by **HumanWindmill** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:19 pm

Very true, Steffan, but Brazil were reigning world champions when Ali won his title, and while poor old Pele was, quite literally, kicked out of the 1966 World Cup he had been expected to be the star of the tournament. Additionally, he ( along with Jairzinho, Rivelino and Gerson, ) was absolutely marvellous at the 1970 tournament.

Sufficient mileage in that, I would have thought, to rival Ali's press coverage.

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:30 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:Very true, Steffan, but Brazil were reigning world champions when Ali won his title, and while poor old Pele was, quite literally, kicked out of the 1966 World Cup he had been expected to be the star of the tournament. Additionally, he ( along with Jairzinho, Rivelino and Gerson, ) was absolutely marvellous at the 1970 tournament.

Sufficient mileage in that, I would have thought, to rival Ali's press coverage.

Very true. On the subject of fame...imagine if Lionel Messi came to play for Man Utd or Chelsea now...I doubt any other sports star British or not would get a look in the press

I think some of Alis fame in Britian was the fact that he had fought in Britain against a British fighter. I dont think Mayweather has even left the States if im honest although I could be wrong. Wouldnt see his poster on kids wall unlike Señor Messi

Shows how much the sport has left the limelight although as I said earlier every sport in Europe and the East nowadays comes a big second best to football and the way its going I think even the good old US are gonna be come engrossed with the sport the way MSL teams are making big signings like Beckham

by No1Jonesy Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:31 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:Very true, Steffan, but Brazil were reigning world champions when Ali won his title, and while poor old Pele was, quite literally, kicked out of the 1966 World Cup he had been expected to be the star of the tournament. Additionally, he ( along with Jairzinho, Rivelino and Gerson, ) was absolutely marvellous at the 1970 tournament.

Sufficient mileage in that, I would have thought, to rival Ali's press coverage.

Windmill - i'm not to up on the 60's / 70's press... well because I wasn't even born but if it was like any of today's standard then Ali getting in it does not surprise me. The fickleness of our press will take a loud, arrogant, controversial touching on obnoxious person to stick in its pages over anybody else anyday of the week.

I would not be surprised if Cooper was in the press more then Pele - would you have him on par as much as an influence as Pele?

In sporting terms Pele was as much of a master of his sport as Ali was winning on par prestigous titles along the way.

In non sporting terms - I cannot place Ali's personality on the same level as any decent human being

by **HumanWindmill** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:32 pm

Steffan wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Very true, Steffan, but Brazil were reigning world champions when Ali won his title, and while poor old Pele was, quite literally, kicked out of the 1966 World Cup he had been expected to be the star of the tournament. Additionally, he ( along with Jairzinho, Rivelino and Gerson, ) was absolutely marvellous at the 1970 tournament.

Sufficient mileage in that, I would have thought, to rival Ali's press coverage.

Very true. On the subject of fame...imagine if Lionel Messi came to play for Man Utd or Chelsea now...I doubt any other sports star British or not would get a look in the press

I think some of Alis fame in Britian was the fact that he had fought in Britain against a British fighter. I dont think Mayweather has even left the States if im honest although I could be wrong. Wouldnt see his poster on kids wall unlike Señor Messi

Shows how much the sport has left the limelight although as I said earlier every sport in Europe and the East nowadays comes a big second best to football and the way its going I think even the good old US are gonna be come engrossed with the sport the way MSL teams are making big signings like Beckham

That last paragraph is so true and so ominous, Steffan.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:35 pm

The heavyweight champion of the World Liston at the time of Clay- Cooper was no doubt a massive name in Britain..

It was the greatest prize in sports....

Shouldn't think fighting in Britain had much to do with anything..

by **HumanWindmill** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:36 pm

No1Jonesy wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Very true, Steffan, but Brazil were reigning world champions when Ali won his title, and while poor old Pele was, quite literally, kicked out of the 1966 World Cup he had been expected to be the star of the tournament. Additionally, he ( along with Jairzinho, Rivelino and Gerson, ) was absolutely marvellous at the 1970 tournament.

Sufficient mileage in that, I would have thought, to rival Ali's press coverage.

Windmill - i'm not to up on the 60's / 70's press... well because I wasn't even born but if it was like any of today's standard then Ali getting in it does not surprise me. The fickleness of our press will take a loud, arrogant, controversial touching on obnoxious person to stick in its pages over anybody else anyday of the week.

I would not be surprised if Cooper was in the press more then Pele - would you have him on par as much as an influence as Pele?

In sporting terms Pele was as much of a master of his sport as Ali was winning on par prestigous titles along the way.

In non sporting terms - I cannot place Ali's personality on the same level as any decent human being

That's fair enough, Jonesy, but some would say the same about Nelson Mandela, whereas others regard him as a Saint. The question concerns who was the most influential, as opposed to whom do we like. Plenty of people adore Ali, and probably more than dislike him.

As to Cooper. ' No ' is the simple answer. He was a national icon, whereas Pele and Ali were international ones.

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:40 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The heavyweight champion of the World Liston at the time of Clay- Cooper was no doubt a massive name in Britain..

It was the greatest prize in sports....

Shouldn't think fighting in Britain had much to do with anything..

Going into a country as a potential sports star will always add to your fame there

Im not saying it was a major factor...but it helped in the long run

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:44 pm

Will always add to your fame there...

Maybe...maybe not......but I refer to the fact Liston was obviously a huge name in Britain......as was Louis before him...no doubt..

Don't think fighting over here really mattered but hey ...that's my opinion..

by No1Jonesy Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:45 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
No1Jonesy wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Very true, Steffan, but Brazil were reigning world champions when Ali won his title, and while poor old Pele was, quite literally, kicked out of the 1966 World Cup he had been expected to be the star of the tournament. Additionally, he ( along with Jairzinho, Rivelino and Gerson, ) was absolutely marvellous at the 1970 tournament.

Sufficient mileage in that, I would have thought, to rival Ali's press coverage.

Windmill - i'm not to up on the 60's / 70's press... well because I wasn't even born but if it was like any of today's standard then Ali getting in it does not surprise me. The fickleness of our press will take a loud, arrogant, controversial touching on obnoxious person to stick in its pages over anybody else anyday of the week.

I would not be surprised if Cooper was in the press more then Pele - would you have him on par as much as an influence as Pele?

In sporting terms Pele was as much of a master of his sport as Ali was winning on par prestigous titles along the way.

In non sporting terms - I cannot place Ali's personality on the same level as any decent human being

That's fair enough, Jonesy, but some would say the same about Nelson Mandela, whereas others regard him as a Saint. The question concerns who was the most influential, as opposed to whom do we like. Plenty of people adore Ali, and probably more than dislike him.

As to Cooper. ' No ' is the simple answer. He was a national icon, whereas Pele and Ali were international ones.

I taking personility also into influential, reviewing the whole package and what they've brought to the world. By no means am I denying Ali anything, in my eyes there are others more worthy.

Secondly agree on the mandela - some see him as a hero, I see him as a terrorist. It angers me to my soul when I see heads of welcoming him to this country with open arms but there you go racism is only a one way street....

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:49 pm

What does it matter what he's brought to the World????

He's influential isn't he????

Basically a Civil rights leader.....Vietnam objector.....Olympic gold medallist......millions for charity!!!....A massive role model....An immense PR expert.....A great salesman....and one of Boxing's greatest fighters and... the greatest personality!!

Who's bigger than that in the sporting world??

by No1Jonesy Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:51 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What does it matter what he's brought to the World????

He's influential isn't he????

Basically a Civil rights leader.....Vietnam objector.....Olympic gold medallist......millions for charity!!!....A massive role model....An immense PR expert.....A great salesman....and one of Boxing's greatest fighters and... the greatest personality!!

Who's bigger than that in the sporting world??

Pele

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:51 pm

No1Jonesy wrote:Secondly agree on the mandela - some see him as a hero, I see him as a terrorist. It angers me to my soul when I see heads of welcoming him to this country with open arms but there you go racism is only a one way street....

Spoiler:

by No1Jonesy Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:53 pm

Steffan wrote:
No1Jonesy wrote:Secondly agree on the mandela - some see him as a hero, I see him as a terrorist. It angers me to my soul when I see heads of welcoming him to this country with open arms but there you go racism is only a one way street....

Spoiler:

Serious!

by azania Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:59 pm

No1Jonesy wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
No1Jonesy wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Very true, Steffan, but Brazil were reigning world champions when Ali won his title, and while poor old Pele was, quite literally, kicked out of the 1966 World Cup he had been expected to be the star of the tournament. Additionally, he ( along with Jairzinho, Rivelino and Gerson, ) was absolutely marvellous at the 1970 tournament.

Sufficient mileage in that, I would have thought, to rival Ali's press coverage.

Windmill - i'm not to up on the 60's / 70's press... well because I wasn't even born but if it was like any of today's standard then Ali getting in it does not surprise me. The fickleness of our press will take a loud, arrogant, controversial touching on obnoxious person to stick in its pages over anybody else anyday of the week.

I would not be surprised if Cooper was in the press more then Pele - would you have him on par as much as an influence as Pele?

In sporting terms Pele was as much of a master of his sport as Ali was winning on par prestigous titles along the way.

In non sporting terms - I cannot place Ali's personality on the same level as any decent human being

That's fair enough, Jonesy, but some would say the same about Nelson Mandela, whereas others regard him as a Saint. The question concerns who was the most influential, as opposed to whom do we like. Plenty of people adore Ali, and probably more than dislike him.

As to Cooper. ' No ' is the simple answer. He was a national icon, whereas Pele and Ali were international ones.

I taking personility also into influential, reviewing the whole package and what they've brought to the world. By no means am I denying Ali anything, in my eyes there are others more worthy.

Secondly agree on the mandela - some see him as a hero, I see him as a terrorist. It angers me to my soul when I see heads of welcoming him to this country with open arms but there you go racism is only a one way street....

Madiba didn't kill anyone. Umkonto we Sizwe was set up specifically to damage infrastructure and the like. Not to kill policemen or soldiers or a vile nazi like regime. I suppose you would charge Churchill with murder also.

As for Ali, done that to death here. The man is a hero.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Jan 2012, 2:59 pm

Pele......................................

Waste of time trying to debate that constructive reply!!!

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 3:00 pm

No1Jonesy wrote:
Steffan wrote:
No1Jonesy wrote:Secondly agree on the mandela - some see him as a hero, I see him as a terrorist. It angers me to my soul when I see heads of welcoming him to this country with open arms but there you go racism is only a one way street....

Spoiler:

Serious!

Was you ever a member of Nasionale Party by any chance...

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Jan 2012, 3:01 pm

Maybe you don't remember Jonesy from the old 606....

If you did you'd go easier on him...

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 3:02 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Maybe you don't remember Jonesy from the old 606....

If you did you'd go easier on him...

Nah dont remember him

And people say I got an agenda...

by **HumanWindmill** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 3:04 pm

Tell you what, chaps, we're getting into awfully deep waters here and passions are likely to boil over.

I think it might be best to drop the political side of this debate and try to concentrate on the other issues. Can we do that, please?

Thanks.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 12 Jan 2012, 3:06 pm

Agenda??? ...People say your Welsh and that's it!!

But let's call it....Politics is an emotional subject....especially when someone hasn't the full facts..

by Steffan Thu 12 Jan 2012, 3:09 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:Tell you what, chaps, we're getting into awfully deep waters here and passions are likely to boil over.

You mean like when when your with a women and you start kissing after a few glasses of wine...

Just kidding Windy Smile

No more politics as I think we have already breached about 7 UN regulations already on here Laugh

by No1Jonesy Thu 12 Jan 2012, 3:10 pm

azania wrote:
Madiba didn't kill anyone. Umkonto we Sizwe was set up specifically to damage infrastructure and the like. Not to kill policemen or soldiers or a vile nazi like regime. I suppose you would charge Churchill with murder also.

As for Ali, done that to death here. The man is a hero.

Churchill was at war - Mandela was not. A terrorist is a terrorist regardless how you tap him up afterwards!

I wouldnt waste my time talking to Ali in this life or any other - he has a personality I despise and I am in no way two faced. Ali should have learned from Frazier how champions and icons should hold themselves...

by Rowley Thu 12 Jan 2012, 3:20 pm

Who says prison doesn't work, Nelson Mandela did 23 years and has not re-offended (Ricky Gervais)

Just a little joke to try and lighten the tone, wrong time and place?

by **HumanWindmill** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 4:13 pm

Okay.

I've done my best to retain the basic substance of your arguments while getting rid of the nasty stuff.

I'm very sorry, but some folks had perfectly innocent contributions removed since they lost all context during surgery to the thread.

This started off as an interesting article and, with a bit of goodwill and effort, it still can be. Please leave the racist stuff outside or I'll be forced to ditch the entire thread, which wouldn't be fair either to the author or to those who have enjoyed it thus far.

Thank you.

by **ShahenshahG** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 4:33 pm

No1Jonesy wrote:
azania wrote:
Madiba didn't kill anyone. Umkonto we Sizwe was set up specifically to damage infrastructure and the like. Not to kill policemen or soldiers or a vile nazi like regime. I suppose you would charge Churchill with murder also.

As for Ali, done that to death here. The man is a hero.

Churchill was at war - Mandela was not. A terrorist is a terrorist regardless how you tap him up afterwards!

I wouldnt waste my time talking to Ali in this life or any other - he has a personality I despise and I am in no way two faced. Ali should have learned from Frazier how champions and icons should hold themselves...

You mean boasting to anyone and everyone how he caused someone brain damage/Parkinsons? Yeah that would really have shown class.

by **ShahenshahG** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 4:35 pm

Also - we should celebrate with a single thread with video links and good wishes. Whether or not you care for that man - he did more for boxing than nearly any man before or since. At least respect him for that.

by Rowley Thu 12 Jan 2012, 4:38 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:

You mean boasting to anyone and everyone how he caused someone brain damage/Parkinsons? Yeah that would really have shown class.

Read Frazier's autobiography some years ago, think he closes with a line that goes along the lines of "you only have to look at Ali now to decide who really won our three fights" As you allude to Shah neither fighter can claim the moral high ground in their rivalry.

by **superflyweight** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 4:53 pm

I tihnk an "Ali Day" would be a worthy way to commemorate his 70th birthday.

by **ShahenshahG** Thu 12 Jan 2012, 4:55 pm

End of the day mate - Ali went from victim to racist - to a damn decent human being. Nietsche said something like you stare too deep into the abyss - then the abyss stares back at you. Basically Ali was a reflection of the times and as the years went by and America slowly acknowledged their rights - he reflected the softening stance by adopting a softer more peaceful philosophy. Perhaps its this tendency to demean people who actually do things to better themselves and their fellow victims by people who sit around on their arses judging the world because of their own inability to stand up and be counted. Now hundreds and thousands of people use him, his fights, his charity work in the face of debilitating illness as inspiration, yet someone who was born in the relative luxury of gentler times tries to claim Ali beneath him. Great deeds are wrought at great risk and those who take those risks get the credit - and those who don't sit on their Flip arses and moan about his faults.

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