Reform Regional Rugby - Update

First topic message reminder :

As some of you will have seen, our campaign is now starting to attract attention and take on real momentum. Here is a selection of some of the coverage we have received to date.


Western Mail 10 Jan 2012 http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2012/01/10/mp-s-petition-calling-for-reform-to-regional-rugby-system-gains-1-000-signatures-91466-30090246/



Observer, Rhondda Leader and Cynon Valley Leader 12 Jan 2012 http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/south-wales-news/pontypridd-llantrisant/2012/01/12/campaign-launched-to-transform-regional-rugby-91466-30096011/



BBC Wales Interview: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b019cbly/am.pm_11_01_2012?t=16m17s (16 minutes into the video)



Fans may also like to hear that Owen Smith is meeting next with all of the other Valleys MPs to rally support for the reform of regional rugby. You may also wish to write to your own MPs to make the case for change.



Lastly, please urge all of your friends, work colleagues and anyone else you know who agrees with our cause to sign the petition: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/reform-regional-rugby/



The WRU must understand the depth of the concern that exists among Welsh rugby fans and we can best do that by recording our protest and our opinions. So I look forward to receiving many thousands of additional signatures in the coming weeks and months. The petition will eventually be passed to the WRU to inform their thinking about the future of the game, however, a copy of it will also be presented formally in Parliament



Keep the faith

I've only ever been to Rodney Parade and Cardiff City Stadium - Cardiff was pretty dead but I reckon it probably had more life than the Liberty.

Honestly the best thing would be for the Pro 12 to have a TV deal with Sky or ESPN. It would bring in more money and would possibly encourage fans to go the stadium or they would just go to the pub. I wouldn't care even though im not based in Wales.

But then we'd be even more at the whim of TV demands particularly if Sky took over, and I'd imagine we'd see games on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays - definately an increase in Friday games and you can kiss goodbye to any sort of midday Saturday games.

And the timings of games is a major factor in why some fans don't turn up to games, as with the poor transport links within Wales they find it impossible to get across their region to the stadium and back if the games late in the week or on Sundays.

The Aviva doesn't seem to have those problems though. They usually have 1/2 games on a Friday and the rest on Sat and Sun why would it be any different for us?

We havn't had a saturday afternoon kick off for years unfortunately. I wonder if the pro12 decided to play all the games on a sat afternoon if there would be increase attendencees for the welsh regions?

It astonishes me that a professional league is on free to air tv. No other major sport in the world does that. Of course i want internationals to stay on the BBC.

Even with the BBC we hardly get Sat afternoon kickoffs anyway. In fact more Aviva games are played on a sat afternoon then in the Pro12.

Because their clubs are less dependant on TV money and they have an umbrella organisation (PRL) negotiating on their behalf maybe.

I'm just going on what happened to the EPL in football - where before Sky games almost always got played teatime on a Sat or Sunday, and after they play whenever they can, squeezing in games any way they can depending on when Sky has scheduled a game.

Your right it may not effect the Welsh regions - but when I compare the power of the struggling Welsh regions to the power of Sky and it's money, which has changed sports - and how much Welsh rugby has changed with just the influence of the BBC and S4C - then I'm not too optimistic

gowales wrote:It astonishes me that a professional league is on free to air tv. No other major sport in the world does that. Of course i want internationals to stay on the BBC.

I didnt even think of it like that. I can't of any pro league that free view. ddu ddu

I haven't really seen the facilities of the Brewery Field, but it looks better than the rest of the grounds in the "Gwent" region. I am not really sure that a ground is that fit for purpose other than RP, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. You have to consider that the majority of the grounds in Gwent weren't initially considered to be Grade A or whatever it was called as well.

Secondly, it wouldn't make a difference really moving a few games away from Newport. What happens when the rest of the games go back to RP? The same people will turn up who normally go to RP and that's it.

I'm not adverse to going elsewhere, Ebbw is a 25 minute train away, Keys is a 2 mile tops walk away, Pooler is easy to get to and so is Bedwas. But realistically I don't think any other ground in the region is suitable considering factors like quality of pitch (freak floods aside), accessibility, corporate facilities, club shop and other factors.

As well risca it's unlikely that after investing a significant amount of money on a new stand at the Dave - and it probably needing investment on new drainage - that the Dragons would want to take money away from the dave until it's paid back a bit of the investment for the new stand.

Though I do think that if people come for the games on their doorstep they may be more likely to continue coming - particularly for the big games - but that's just my opinion, I haven't got any facts to back it up so it'll be interesting to see how the Ospreys/Bridgend experiment goes...

Risca:

Dave does not flood or freeze, you have a short memory. Pontypool park has hosted Australia and world cup games and it has a swimming pool next door and not on the pitch. Yes the ground has a slope but it is the same for both teams.

glamorganalun wrote:Risca:

Dave does not flood or freeze, you have a short memory. Pontypool park has hosted Australia and world cup games and it has a swimming pool next door and not on the pitch. Yes the ground has a slope but it is the same for both teams.

Before professionalism by any chance?

And you referring to one game being called off due to flooding (i:e, Dragons v Blues)?

BridgendBoyo wrote:We havn't had a saturday afternoon kick off for years unfortunately. I wonder if the pro12 decided to play all the games on a sat afternoon if there would be increase attendencees for the welsh regions?

How did you come up with this idea when all the clubs in Wales play on a Saturday afternoon?

Morgannwg wrote:

BridgendBoyo wrote:We havn't had a saturday afternoon kick off for years unfortunately. I wonder if the pro12 decided to play all the games on a sat afternoon if there would be increase attendencees for the welsh regions?

How did you come up with this idea when all the clubs in Wales play on a Saturday afternoon?

Hes talking about Regions mate.

glamorganalun wrote:Risca:

Dave does not flood or freeze, you have a short memory. Pontypool park has hosted Australia and world cup games and it has a swimming pool next door and not on the pitch. Yes the ground has a slope but it is the same for both teams.

If you can show me where I stated Dave does not flood or freeze, I'd be most grateful. So games played in 1991 are a good measuring stick are they? Sorted then. Did Pontypool Park get an A license? Funny that, as I am sure Rodney Parade did. So a ground that isn't good enough for the Welsh Premiership is good enough for a Region to play on.

gowales wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

BridgendBoyo wrote:We havn't had a saturday afternoon kick off for years unfortunately. I wonder if the pro12 decided to play all the games on a sat afternoon if there would be increase attendencees for the welsh regions?

How did you come up with this idea when all the clubs in Wales play on a Saturday afternoon?

Hes talking about Regions mate.

So the regions are going to play games and attend those same games? THE FANS, obviously play on a saturday afternoon. Hence no increase in attendances.

Doesn't seem to affect English or French rugby.

And you know thats not the reason why they don't televise games on a Saturday afternoon.

And most of THE FANS don't play rugby anymore. As you get older you become more of a spectator.

Population of Wales = 3 million, or just under.

Each population of England and France = 50-60 million. Of course it wouldn't effect them, much larger market audience.

Not sure what you are getting at now. If the games are on a saturday afternoon then the attendaces are likely to drop as people are playing/watching their local villiages and clubs. That's youth to senior level and that is where the majority of support for the Regional and International teams come from. On international days, most clubs either don't play or have KO around 11 am. That was the point I clearly made.

Morgannwg wrote:

gowales wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

BridgendBoyo wrote:We havn't had a saturday afternoon kick off for years unfortunately. I wonder if the pro12 decided to play all the games on a sat afternoon if there would be increase attendencees for the welsh regions?

How did you come up with this idea when all the clubs in Wales play on a Saturday afternoon?

Hes talking about Regions mate.

So the regions are going to play games and attend those same games? THE FANS, obviously play on a saturday afternoon. Hence no increase in attendances.

Rubbish. none of my mates who play rugby watch the regions. The people who watch the games are two young, dont play any more or are too old. Grounds would be packed out years ago, why would things be different

Morgannwg wrote:Population of Wales = 3 million, or just under.

Each population of England and France = 50-60 million. Of course it wouldn't effect them, much larger market audience.

Not sure what you are getting at now. If the games are on a saturday afternoon then the attendaces are likely to drop as people are playing/watching their local villiages and clubs. That's youth to senior level and that is where the majority of support for the Regional and International teams come from. On international days, most clubs either don't play or have KO around 11 am. That was the point I clearly made.

Whatever you say mate all i know is that most people would prefer to see a rugby match on a Saturday afternoon.

Morgannwg wrote:

gowales wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

BridgendBoyo wrote:We havn't had a saturday afternoon kick off for years unfortunately. I wonder if the pro12 decided to play all the games on a sat afternoon if there would be increase attendencees for the welsh regions?

How did you come up with this idea when all the clubs in Wales play on a Saturday afternoon?

Hes talking about Regions mate.

So the regions are going to play games and attend those same games? THE FANS, obviously play on a saturday afternoon. Hence no increase in attendances.

If my team the Ospreys had the attendances of Swansea,Neath, Aberavon, Bridgend and Maesteg crowds of the 70s, 80s, or 90s when ALL of the LOCAL club sides played at the same time on a Saturday, then they would be doing very well thank you

I said it was likely to decrease rather than increase, or neither. But it certainly wouldn't increase. And that's just Bridgend pal, and just your mates. This year and the following years may see a rise in spectators from your area.

BTW, what time do your mates play their games? Could help empthasise my point?

You obviously have a very strong opinion but most people are disagreeing with you pal

Well pals, if you could tell me where the fans are going to come from when games are played on a saturday afternoon I'm willing to listen and take it on board. I don't see what new fans this would bring when they would be out down the road watching their club or playing for them. And for the dull people, I am not refering to the clubs in the Premiership.

History tells us that local club sides playing on a Saturday doesn't affect the attendances for the "big" club sides even in Wales

Morgannwg - I don't play rugby anymore and neither do most of the people who I know who go down PyS - and I'd certainly go to more games if they were on a Sat afternoon as I'd be able to get there and back on public transport - which is impossible to do on a friday night, and that's with me living in Cardiff on the Great Western line, it's even worse if you live round Llandovery, Newcastle Emlyn or Haverdfordwest way

So games down PYS are not played on a sat afternoon and funnily enough, you and the fans that you know do not play rugby. Hmmmm.

Morgannwg, there are many reasons for the drop off of attendances, for my team the Coaches are a big reason, timing of games lesser so, matches on TV, why can't they only screen the away matches LIVE.
I can't remember if it was on this thread or another that the clubs within each Province in Ireland HAVE TO sell a certain number of tickets for Provincial games, I don't remember what the penalty was if they didn't achieve their quota perhaps one of our Irish contribitors could come on and enlighten us.
As I said in the earlier post all the big teams of the earlier eras played at the same time as I did, at say 2.30 to 3.00 in the afternoon, it didn't stop them getting reasonable crowds, the only time I seen my local BIG team Bridgend play was on a Friday night or in the Midweek floodlight League

wayne, are you by any chance refering to the eras when Wales played at the Arms Park? Should not have been a problem to sell that out, but if it was 70-80,000 back then.... Also Smirnoff had a point. Some saturday afternoon kick-offs may encourage fans from further afield to come down and watch.

Glad to see we are getting somewhere now and no thanks to that gypsy 'gowales' might I add .

Morgannwg wrote:So games down PYS are not played on a sat afternoon and funnily enough, you and the fans that you know do not play rugby. Hmmmm.

You really are a cynical Tinkywinky aren't you

Morgannwg wrote:wayne, are you by any chance refering to the eras when Wales played at the Arms Park? Should not have been a problem to sell that out, but if it was 70-80,000 back then.... Also Smirnoff had a point. Some saturday afternoon kick-offs may encourage fans from further afield to come down and watch.

Glad to see we are getting somewhere now and no thanks to that gypsy 'gowales' might I add .

Can you please elaborate on your gypsy comment. I'm not sure if I should take offence or not.

And aren't you the fellow who's convinced the WRU are going to have central contracts.

We've had at least 3 games on a Sat afternoon at PyS this season, funnily enough, they have actually been our biggest crowds.

dreamer, what dates?

gowales, it's an assumption, you're from around the north of england aren't you? Not convinced the WRU are having central contracts no. It's a proposal and one I agree with. Unless you could point out where I have said otherwise?

Tinkywinky? It's a shame you couldn't answer my questions and not add any sort of value to the discussion. Not that I expected more from you in the first place though.

off the top of my head we've had afternoon kick offs for the matches v Castres, Saints, Ospreys, Munster.

Think there may have been more.

True, only 1 of those is a Pro12 game, and the HEC games might have a bigger pull, but Munster, O's and Saints I do believe have been our biggest crowds.

If you had full capcity it would have been slighlty less that your heineken cup games (Pro12 game was played on a holiday). You would also get a lot of opposition support from those teams usually, but there didn't seem to be many Saints fans there from the TV view.

Morgannwg wrote:wayne, are you by any chance refering to the eras when Wales played at the Arms Park? Should not have been a problem to sell that out, but if it was 70-80,000 back then.... Also Smirnoff had a point. Some saturday afternoon kick-offs may encourage fans from further afield to come down and watch.

Glad to see we are getting somewhere now and no thanks to that gypsy 'gowales' might I add .

What has Wales playing at the Arms Park got to do with the crowds attending Premiership matches, when Wales played there are no matches on the same day and the attendances at the Internationals were sold out MONTHS in advance.
I know of 4 people who would attend Ospreys matches on a Saturday afternoon who cannot get home from a Friday or Saturday night match and they would purchase a Season Ticket

There weren't many Saints fans there Morgannwg, which makes it all the more impressive that we were just under 10K. These figures are still relatively small, but so far this season the Scarlets are regularly getting attendances, far FAR greater then the likes of Llanelli RFC ever got.

As usual reasons why not play away from Newport, the MS pitch is hardly top quality and dangerous at times but internationals are played on it, the current Scarlets pitch is a disgrace for a new ground but top HC games are played on it. How long will it take to prepare a decent pitch especially early in the season for one game? I have suggested Cwmbran Stadium in the past but there is always reasons not to venture north of the M4.

Back to the topic:

In the very unlikely event of a shake up of regional rugby in Wales, what options could be considered to be sustainable in the future:
1 Maintain super clubs as we already
2 Maintain the current Super clubs as we have but add 1 or 2 more clubs
3 Merge current super clubs Osprey/Scarlets and Blues/Dragons and create two or more new regions e.g., Mid (South bias) Wales and North Wales for example
4 Have promotion from a reduced (stronger) Welsh Premier league and relegation to the Premier for the lowest Welsh super club via a play off, funding would transfer to the winner. Need North Wales teams in the Premier league.
5 Tender franchises for 4 or more true regions

I sure there are other options and all have pros and lots of cons, I will just say the current system is not working hence I suspect Welsh regions are further away from winning the HC than ever, I hope I am wrong. Come on the Blues you are the only team left in this year, please prove me wrong.

Kick off times do have an influence on attendances though not sure how much.

If the Scarlets are playing on a Friday night then its almost impossible for someone from say Haverfordwest or Milford to get there after work for the kick off.

That said all the Regions willingly take the TV money so its a catch 22. Yes it would be great to see 2-30 3 O'clock saturday kick offs again but that in itself would stop people who actually play amateur rugby and support the locla clubs from attending

glamorganalun wrote:

In the very unlikely event of a shake up of regional rugby in Wales, what options could be considered to be sustainable in the future:
1 Maintain super clubs as we already

You can't say that glam as it upsets the regionalists on this here board. Cardiff is a "region" supposedly. No idea at all what it means as I always believed them to be a rugby team in Cardiff.