Historical Map of the British Isles ~ 802

First topic message reminder :

http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/british_isles_802.htm

I hate discussions which just end 'discuss'.

Days when at least twelve of the UK's currently most populous cities don't exist.
Bits of England belong to Scotland and Cornwall is West Wales.

Five Jeff towns have their names on the waiting list.

[ed to get this post back into the RU section where it belongs] And it seems that England and Scotland have ancient kingdoms upon which they could base Heineken Cup challenges.

Discuss...

Portnoy wrote:Post-defeat depression? No. I'm too long in the tooth for such childish emotions (I think).

Since when are we too old for childish emotions? If we are breathing we can vent in the most immature ways. I have spent my whole life refining my emotions down to the most base and childlike. Proudly.

You should see me sulk when Leinster or Ireland lose. Pathetic.

Leinster currently on a 15 game unbeaten run, and I am hoping we will be taking a 21 game run to Thomond at the end of March.

Ireland........Who knows. Perhaps you may have to sulk over them with Wales up first and France away 6 days later.

This switch to regional teams could be done piecemeal. The RFU could start with a region (Mercia for example) where the clubs are struggling. Then they could buy the two pro club sides there and then enter this new Mercian side in the Prem and the h cup. Bit by bit they could go regional. From some grim article that I remember reading all but two of the prem teams had financial troubles so this may not be impossible.

Initially there would be fewer teams in the prem then bit by bit they may join the rabbit league. (The Welsh would wee themselves in excitement over this) It could split into two groups/some funny conference style.

Knowing so little about the English clubs financial background I'm just guessing here. The RFU is reputed to be loaded so I could see them buying clubs out. If they could do it in one go it would be best. They couldn't force a club to sell though so it could end up as a half made project.

As Portnoy pointed out, the four RFU Divisions still exist and have a pre-professional rugby history every bit as illustrious as their Irish Provincial counterparts, albeit with the boundaries less distinct. They still put out inter-div age-group teams and administer the leagues below national level - every club in the land is affiliated to a Division.

There would be no need to call upon ancient kingdoms, but perhaps they could be included in some rebranding - Wessex Worriers, Mercian Mansausages, Northern Soul, London Underground perhaps (or perhaps not).

Internationally, I believe that there is a need for England to distill its playing and coaching talents into a small number of teams, not only to act as trials but also to build combinations that can be transferred into the international team. The Saxons do not train or play competitively enough to forge the next generation of international players after U-20 level. The Divisions are the natural receptacle for this distillation - 4 squads of, say, 30 players would provide a decent pool of 120 players.

If the HC or European League (or whatever it evolves into) is played in a single block, there may be an opportunity for scratch Divisional teams to be involved. 3 blocks of 2 pool games as at present would be too disruptive, although may be competitive in an Amlin level competition. (RFU/PRL are on record as lobbying for 2 blocks of 3 games already).

So my masterplan is this:

reorganise the season into a block of domestic club competition, followed by a block of Euro competition, followed by internationals. No overlapping, although a secondary club competition could be played in the Euro or international blocks.

English clubs play only in the domestic league, with the Divisions playing in Euro (weakened club teams might play in secondary Euro competition or domestic Cup). The English Premiership teams would be severely weakened, but the league is probably strong enough to survive. The benefit is that the difference in standard between Prem/Championship/NL1 (both playing and financial) would reduce, enabling a proper promotion pathway for aspirant clubs, and bye-bye to the bedblockers.

With all the vested interests both within England, and the wider European rugby community, how likely is my masterplan to come to fruition? About as likely as John Steele buying Martyn Thomas a nice bottle of Chateau Margaux.

As a stopgap, I'd like to see scratch Divisional teams playing midweek touring teams during the AI's - Northern Soul v Wallabies at Anfield perhaps, reprising that famous 1988 victory and providing a bridgehead countrywide ahead of RWC 2015. Also, a Divisional championship contemporaneous with the Prem playoffs, albeit without players from the playoff clubs - a double header at Twickenham of, say, Wessex Worriers v Mercian Mansausages would be a great prelude to Exeter's win over Sarries in the grand final.

At the expense of risking be dragged kicking and screaming in front of the Levenson Inquiry, I am prepared to reveal that I was contacted via PM from a source close to a Welsh member of this board which read

"Nice map Portnoy. Could you by any chance find a map of ancient
principalities in Wales, dated around the same era as your England map
from the same source?

It would have included kingdoms like Gwyned, Gwent, Morgannwg, Deubarth... (may have spelt a few of these wrong).

Cheers."

To which I humbly reply (as Wiki UK is down today).

"No. Find yer feckin' own".

Jeebus, Portnoy, yer so lazy!!

Try this, you anonymous Welsh person: ancient Wales

That is dated 1974 As

That's ancient for me, just not for you and Gib