Crowds: NH & SH

An interesting quote from Gibbes in the Indo today;

Gibbes is relishing the opportunity of Leinster playing in front of a full-house at the RDS, describing the supporters as "awesome" since he arrived from New Zealand.

"It's one of the things that I really like about rugby in the north -- they are supportive, they are into their team, they support their team no matter who plays and take a real ownership of it. It's really awesome, you don't really get that down in the southern hemisphere. It's cultural."

Now, I know everyone always talks up their own supporters (and rightly so) but is there something more in this?

Personally, I'll always cheer on a player within my team (be it Leinster-Ireland-Lions) so long as I believe they are putting in a proper shift/effort. I don't think I'm alone on that front. But is my attitude a little on the soft side? SH teams are historically, more successful but this comment might suggest their fans are also more critical of the players. Does this vibe from the fans drive on the players in a more effective way?

Is there something to this?

I think Gibbes' thoughts may be different if he'd joined a Welsh region!

Yeah, Gibbes haven't been to Loftus, Shark tank or Newlands yet, has he?

1. He's with the 'best' team in Europe. I use 'best' advisedly as we all know only French sides get to use it without the inverted commas and no questions are asked.. Anyway, if Leinster don't have support at present, then rugby is itself dead.

2. He's in a National capital. It's not just a regional capital but a political and cultural centre. People collect there and want entertainment on weekends.

3. He's in Ireland. Bands that Irish people 'hate' can sell out Croke Park three times in one weekend. We like sitting in things, watching things happen... and the bars..and the toilet trips with sloshing plastic beer cups to protect.

4. Rugby is really only still growing in Ireland. I expect the crowds to get even bigger in years to come.

SecretFly wrote:1. He's with the 'best' team in Europe. I use 'best' advisedly as we all know only French sides get to use it without the inverted commas and no questions are asked.. Anyway, if Leinster don't have support at present, then rugby is itself dead.

2. He's in a National capital. It's not just a regional capital but a political and cultural centre. People collect there and want entertainment on weekends.

3. He's in Ireland. Bands that Irish people 'hate' can sell out Croke Park three times in one weekend. We like sitting in things, watching things happen... and the bars..and the toilet trips with sloshing plastic beer cups to protect.

4. Rugby is really only still growing in Ireland. I expect the crowds to get even bigger in years to come.

Pretty much nailed it

Rocky Elsom said something similar about how the fans take ownership of the their teams in the north.

He said Leinster fans and the press would heap lavish praise on the players and coach when they were doing well, but would be savage and sometimes very personal in their criticism when they weren't. So I don't think southern fans are more critical.

I've seen South African crowds and biltong is right, they're madly passionate too. I think in Australia and New Zealand maybe it's a bit more about entertainment, and it's a bit less tribal.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Rocky Elsom said something similar about how the fans take ownership of the their teams in the north.

He said Leinster fans and the press would heap lavish praise on the players and coach when they were doing well, but would be savage and sometimes very personal in their criticism when they weren't. So I don't think southern fans are more critical.

I've seen South African crowds and biltong is right, they're madly passionate too. I think in Australia and New Zealand maybe it's a bit more about entertainment, and it's a bit less tribal.

I think in NZ it's a little less tribal at Super rugby level - people still have their amateur clubs and semi-pro provinces below that level to dilute support. Also, in NZ the public seem to have relatively more emotional capital invested in the national side - so they're more relaxed about the regional/provincial stuff. But phrases like "one-eyed Cantabrian" etc have been around for years.

Australian union crowds are definitely pretty reserved in the way they support, at least relative to the rest of society and other countries. I grew up with Aussie rules mainly but have this year bought Waratahs membership for the first time. I told a bloke at work that I had signed up, and he apologized saying if he knew I was looking for a team to support he would have got me involved with St George (his NRL club).

Qld is probably the stand out here for support.

boomeranga wrote:Australian union crowds are definitely pretty reserved in the way they support, at least relative to the rest of society and other countries. I grew up with Aussie rules mainly but have this year bought Waratahs membership for the first time. I told a bloke at work that I had signed up, and he apologized saying if he knew I was looking for a team to support he would have got me involved with St George (his NRL club).

Qld is probably the stand out here for support.

Do non-rugby Aussie crowds sing at all? I've always been a little curious at how that tradition didn't follow British-invented sports to NZ.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

boomeranga wrote:Australian union crowds are definitely pretty reserved in the way they support, at least relative to the rest of society and other countries. I grew up with Aussie rules mainly but have this year bought Waratahs membership for the first time. I told a bloke at work that I had signed up, and he apologized saying if he knew I was looking for a team to support he would have got me involved with St George (his NRL club).

Qld is probably the stand out here for support.

Do non-rugby Aussie crowds sing at all? I've always been a little curious at how that tradition didn't follow British-invented sports to NZ.

No Kiwi, except for elements of the A League. It's the Melb/Bris/Syd clubs mainly, who have a large UK ex-pat contingent, e.g. 'The Cove'.
It's a novelty in our sporting culture. It has only been happening for the last 5-6 years at most. A few fanatical Aussies have joined the original bandwagon and it's good to see them all singing together - rain, hail or shine. The atmosphere in some of the 'derbys' is getting better each year.

Cheers LB.

NZ sporting crowds are generally "No singing please, we're Kiwis".

Though I was in a group that starting singing "one hundred more 4s to go" at a cricket test in Chch once. When Nathan Astle clocked up the fastest ever double hundred, and we were down to "30 more 4s to go" the Barmy Army had joined in.

However, I did notice a fair bit of chanting/singing at a recent Phoenix home game which also made for a decent atmosphere considering there were not huge numbers at the ground that day. Good to see.

In fact, I hope they win the whole thing soon. They came so close last year and were very unlucky in the play-offs. It would be another shot in the arm for NZ football after the 2010 WC - if they could grab some well deserved glory.

Saffers like to sing, and when you go to Loftus, Newlands or Kingspark Absa stadium there is a real vibe. Even Ellispark stadium during the latter part of the Currie cup got regular crowds of over 20 000 people after a long spell of disappointing seasons.

The fans in PE and East London are fantastic too Biltong - great atmosphere with all the musicians and singing going on.

Yeah LB, St Georges is great to watch cricket at. Been there a few times and must be my favourite ground.

Problem for PE and East london is they don't often get big rugby games as the Super XV doesn't go there, perhaps when the Super Kings or whatever they call themselves this year get a shot at the Super rugby tournament it will help. But then again the sevens tournament held there in December was disappointing as far as crowds go.

There is silence during many parts of games at the Caketin in Wellington.
We civil servants keep our passion on the inside.

Nga
You dont convince me,I'll be checking up on you lot next weekend,and I bet your partying up like a pack of pagans.

They must have cranked up the effects mics then (or used a pre-recording from another match) because it sounded OK on TV.

Sorry I mean the real rugby fans. The sevens doesn't count.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Rocky Elsom said something similar about how the fans take ownership of the their teams in the north.

He said Leinster fans and the press would heap lavish praise on the players and coach when they were doing well, but would be savage and sometimes very personal in their criticism when they weren't. So I don't think southern fans are more critical.

I've seen South African crowds and biltong is right, they're madly passionate too. I think in Australia and New Zealand maybe it's a bit more about entertainment, and it's a bit less tribal.

I think in NZ it's a little less tribal at Super rugby level - people still have their amateur clubs and semi-pro provinces below that level to dilute support. Also, in NZ the public seem to have relatively more emotional capital invested in the national side - so they're more relaxed about the regional/provincial stuff. But phrases like "one-eyed Cantabrian" etc have been around for years.

Didn't know that NZ had semi-pro rugby. How does that work? I mean what kind of season do they play, how many teams in the semi-pro league and what kind of money do the players earn. Can it really support itself financially?

I interested, because I'm thinking could such a set up work for the GAA in Ireland and could we learn from it?

bluemoda wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Rocky Elsom said something similar about how the fans take ownership of the their teams in the north.

He said Leinster fans and the press would heap lavish praise on the players and coach when they were doing well, but would be savage and sometimes very personal in their criticism when they weren't. So I don't think southern fans are more critical.

I've seen South African crowds and biltong is right, they're madly passionate too. I think in Australia and New Zealand maybe it's a bit more about entertainment, and it's a bit less tribal.

I think in NZ it's a little less tribal at Super rugby level - people still have their amateur clubs and semi-pro provinces below that level to dilute support. Also, in NZ the public seem to have relatively more emotional capital invested in the national side - so they're more relaxed about the regional/provincial stuff. But phrases like "one-eyed Cantabrian" etc have been around for years.

Didn't know that NZ had semi-pro rugby. How does that work? I mean what kind of season do they play, how many teams in the semi-pro league and what kind of money do the players earn. Can it really support itself financially?

I interested, because I'm thinking could such a set up work for the GAA in Ireland and could we learn from it?

The old NPC (National Provincial Championship) which started in the mid '70s (prior to that provinces arranged their own fixtures) continues as the INL Cup today. The top division has 14 provinces playing in it (despite regular attempts by the NZRU to prune the size down), while the other 12 provinces play in the fully amateur 2nd division. The season runs in NZ's spring, August-October, after amateur club rugby in the provinces finishes. Unless they're on international duty the majority of Super XV players turn out in the competition (they get contracted by provinces and by SuperXV franchises, though the NZRU ultimately pays their salaries).

Crowds have been relatively good over the past couple of years after a dip post the 2007 RWC when the NZ public "got the hump" with rugby, plus NZ had its credit-crunch recession earlier than Europe did. However several unions (notably Southland recently, while Tasman have recently returned to profitability after blowing lots of money on stadium rebuilding) have posted big losses, mainly through spending on improving squads in the hope of drawing in crowds.

As I understand you, there is a total of 26 provinces and each have both semi-pro and the professionals playing side-by-side. Are the big players contracted to all the provinces (amateur and semi-pro) and playing in both divisions. I take it that there is promotion/demotion, so what happens when a fully amateur 2nd division team is promoted to top division? Do the players start earning big money?

What the average crowd attendance? What kind of money do the semis earn?

The whole set up sounds pretty cool.

Final question. I read somewhere that rugby is struggling to win the hearts of NZ's youth as most of them now prefer soccer or league. Is this a real problem or media hyperbole?

I remember the first game I went to in Sydney when I lived there. It was Aus v England (as a Welshman I was draped in the required Australian flag). I thought I had bought the wrong ticket and turned up to the library. Never have I been to a rugby international that was so quiet. Apparently that's the norm. There was definitely more atmosphere at some of the Super 14 games I saw.

Went to a Rugby match in Sydney in the 80's. Decent enough crowd but it was so so quiet

Bloody weird if you ask me

Having said that Ulster played away to Edinburgh in a HC group match a few years ago and some Edinburgh fans were complaining we were too loud.

So not just the SH

A guy I know was shocked at how quiet the NZ crowd were when he went to see the All Blacks play in NZ a few years ago. This is someone who goes to see Ireland play in Lansdowne road, which I think has the worst fans in any sport in Ireland. The provincial crowds are good, but the international fans? So slow to make any sound at all.

I read not long ago that singing in the UK football matches only took off after the European cup started and touring fans saw the European fans chanting and singing. So maybe this is why NZ and Australians are quieter. It's not originally a British thing and isn't that old really.