Regional attendances so far this season

Righty, I nabbed this off the ScarletsFever forum, because I was too lazy to work out the average attendances for myself:

Blues: 4,847, 5,466, 8,198, 6,913, 10,358, 4,557. Total: 40,339. Average: 6,723.16
Dragons: 4,197, 4,554, 4,646, 5,160. Total: 18,557. Average: 4,639.25
Ospreys: 5,424, 5,179, 5,590, 5,726, 4,463, 12,332, 7,732. Total: 46,446. Average: 6,635.14
Scarlets: 6,493, 8,823, 6,188, 6,314, 7,075, 7,860, 7,950. Total: 50,703. Average: 7,243.28


Interesting to note that despite both the Blues and O's having one set of attendaces over 10K, that the Scarlets still have a better average. Also results are a bit scewed for the Dragons due to one of their home games being rained off, and also the development of a new stand.

Just wondering what fans from respective regions thought?

As a Scarlet I'm quite happy, especially as we have yet to play Munster and Saints at home in the Heineken, or the O's and Blues in the Pro12 and we are guaranteed really big crowds for all of them. Would love to see our average go over 8K this season. The only really disappointing game was the one against Castres (7860), as that was about 1,000 down on our crowd for Perpignan last season.

I've noticed how the Scarlets have been having attendances of around 7k all season which I've been really encouraging and hopefully we should be able to get loads of people for the Munster and Saints HEC games and the Ospreys and Blues derbies.

Hopefully they will improve and get even better next season (though equally now it's getting cold and wet they may get worse)

I dunno Priest, the weather's been pretty bad for a few of our home games already (against Ulster it was horrid), and we still had rather decent crowds. My only concern is that the scheduling for Jan-March is dreadful. That could see a big hit on the figures. We have an accursed Thursday night match!

I'm not sure these results really matter, Dragons Vs Blues was sold out before it got called off, if you added an 11,676 attendance to these statistics then I'm sure the Dragons would be bumped up a bit.

The low attendance for the Scarlets Vs Dragons game does suprise me though, surely a bit more fans would of attended from the home side as it is a Welsh team while you'd expect a thousand away supporters?

I think this would be better done at the end of the season, though it is good news that the Scarlets are improving.

Average attendances for the 2011/2012 season

Cardiff City FC - 8 games
21,959

Swansea City FC - 6 games
19,767

If only Rugby could catch up to those numbers, we'd be happy breaking the double figures on average

There were about 100 away Dragons supporters for that match Alyn, by the looks of it. Really didn't see that many. To 7,700 home fans isn't bad for a Friday evening game. Add to the fact none of the Welsh start apart from Stevo were playing, getting just under 8,000 isn't so bad. Disappointed not more Dragons fans came though.

Mike - yep what we wouldn't give for attendances like that! Even getting near an average of 10K for any of the regions would be brilliant.

But look at the average attendance for Cardiff and Swansea about 5 years ago it was around 4,000 when they were in the 2nd Division, it's only since they've pumped millions in (more Cardiff than Swansea) to rise up the table that they've got the fans, if they go back down again they'll be wish for regional attendance figures.

Is this like 4 starving men arguing about the size of a pea each of them are having for supper?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:But look at the average attendance for Cardiff and Swansea about 5 years ago it was around 4,000 when they were in the 2nd Division, it's only since they've pumped millions in (more Cardiff than Swansea) to rise up the table that they've got the fans, if they go back down again they'll be wish for regional attendance figures.

No doubt their popularity soared when they actually started to perform well both Swansea and Cardiff have been fighting for the Premiership spot for a few years now, it might be the case with the rugby regions, and with Welsh rugby in general, fans are more willing to spend money to see the teams if they are playing well and competing with the best in Europe on a consistent basis. It SHOULDN'T be the case and we should be supporting our regions regardless.

For comparison (London double header removed)

Tiger - 18379
Saints- 12990
Gloucester - 12918
Harlequins - 11447
Bath - 11220
Worcester - 9163
Irish - 7489
Sale - 7287
Exeter - 7150
Wasps - 6303
Saracens - 5944
Newcastle - 4632

Saracens are the standout.

But Swansea have been playing well for a while but their attendances only really picked up when it was obvious they stood a good chance of going up halfway through last year

I'm not even sure why people would compare the attendances of England and Wales when there is a huge difference in the population size London alone has three times more people than all of Wales.
The regions are all down South so for large tracts of Wales it's easier and cheaper to watch the games on TV.
The English clubs have a long history the Welsh regions were only formed in 2003 I'm sure with time and success that the fan base will grow.

The attendances have been pretty steadily the same for a few years, maybe slightly lower at the moment, but we are all tightening our financial expenditure a bit.

The Cardiff and Swansea regions have had ML and Amlin cup successes over the last few years, they are "Cities", and they have a much bigger fan base with some rich benefactors, whilst the Scarlets / NGD have done very little in the last 3-4 years. So they should be double the Scarlets or Newport Gwent Dragons figures

And using the football excuse doesnt really hold water, It can be argued that the Ospreys have been more successful than the "Swans", and just look at Leicester for example ...... not any bigger than Cardiff or Swansea areas, and yet the attendances in 2011 are approx

Football = 23,666
Rugby = 18,400

So there's nothing to suggest that the Ospreys or the Cardiff Blues couldnt have 15k plus bums on seats.

I believe the Os and Blues (to a lesser extent) Management have promoted a fickle "buy a sports shirt" short term celebrity loving approach to attract that type of attendee,,,,,,,, great if the model worked in the short term, but with Gav gone awol, the fickle fans fickled off............... back to the "beautiful game"

Rugby in Wales relies a lot on tv money. Unfortunately ita a double edged sword. You get money if the game is on tv but less people turn up to watch the game. The tv revenue outweighs the lost gate receipts by a long way but you play in front of half empty grounds which means the atmosphere comes accross on the tv as poor. If the atmosphere looks poor people are less likelt to go to a live game.

IronMike wrote:Average attendances for the 2011/2012 season

Cardiff City FC - 8 games
21,959

Swansea City FC - 6 games
19,767

If only Rugby could catch up to those numbers, we'd be happy breaking the double figures on average

Spot on Mike. The 4 regions are fighting a far more popular and cash-rich - 5th Region. Soccerball.

Scarlets figures look encouraging. They are constant. I think it is beacuse they play the most attractive rugby of all 4. Irrespective of results.

You must entertain as well as win imo. If Leinster played like Munster, our crowds would drop. Its a culture thing.

Many reasons really

With the football there are only 2 clubs down south to share the football attendances, what if they were split between 4 sides? These are also clubs that are 100 years old.

I still argue the timing of the games makes a huge difference to the support. Saturday afternoon meant a lot of people could get there, Friday night means you will probably have no away support and only some of your potential home support. The games usually kick off at 7pm on a Friday so there is no chance for people to get home from work and get there.

All games on TV

The initial mess made of regionalisation


Lots of reasons but I think all of them could do with some lessons in marketing.

FHF, "the fickle fans fickled off"

Fantastic phrase.

Gibson wrote:
Spot on Mike. The 4 regions are fighting a far more popular and cash-rich - 5th Region. Soccerball.

Everyone likes to bring up the population arguement to explain high English attendances, but that is a complete smokescreen. We face exactly the same issue being the 3rd most popular sport behind Soccer & Cricket and significantly a way behind too... it's not even a close 3rd. You just have to look at the lower end of the premiership for evidence of that.

Just speaking for my home city of Leicester, there is quite a comparison here between it & Cardiff. Roughly the same size, roughly the same sort of population. There are a hell of a lot of rugby clubs based in and around the city and again in the wider county, probably more than any other city in England (can't confirm that 'fact' though) so I know of 1000's of Tiger supporters just based in those clubs alone who don't attend Tigers matches because we are actually playing for our local club sides.

If the fixtures fall right then happy days because I get to do both... but thank god for Sky & ESPN otherwise!

It has taken decades to build up that support and the gradual improvement & addition of the stands over those decades. It's a long process.

You can't just create a new team, plonk it in a 25,000 seater stadium and then wonder why your not even half filling it.

Sometimes I think it was a mistake for the Welsh to go into the MagnersCelticRobocopPro12, they should have looked to join the premiership (I know something along those lines were kicked around but there was the issue of promotion/relegation) there is always a bit more va-va-voom between English & Welsh fixtures and your fans certainly would have a lot less travelling (yes I know Dub is an easy ferry ride but can be expensive) and you would benefit from large travelling support from teams like Tigers, Saints, Glaw etc.

Basic marketing. The 4 P's

Product
Price
Place (or Positioning)
Promotion

And

The 5 P's

Proper planning prevents poor performance

Take the 4 P's in reverse.

Promotion. The regions are promoted well enough, they are high profile, get good TV coverage.

Place or positioning. Their location was decided by the WRU, but they decide their positioning. The Scarlets have positioned themselves as the representatives of rural and Welsh speaking Wales, the Ospreys as a team for families, the Dragons as 'Men of Gwent' and the Blues...they are alienating a large area of potential fans in North Glamorganshire, but would alienate their city base if they pandered to them. This is the most difficult circle to square.

Price. They can't be accused of not trying in this respect to he fair.

Product. Have they got the plums to conduct a root and branch review and make whatever changes are necessary? The WRU and the league are partly responsible for this as they are responsible for the referees. The Dragons match was wrecked by the linesmen not keeping the backlines to the offside line and a Bryce Lawrence style breakdown interpretation.

Planning? They are quite professional outfits, but who decided that the Blues should play London Irish on the same night Gareth Bale was turning the Christmas lights on in the city?

Come on Regions, you are forgetting the most important P; People. TV pays your bills, but people only can provide the cream.

My recipe?
1 don't forget onfield performance
2 do what you can to push for better refs
3 do your research and push for scheduling that will maximise gates.

AlynDavies wrote:The low attendance for the Scarlets Vs Dragons game does suprise me though, surely a bit more fans would of attended from the home side as it is a Welsh team while you'd expect a thousand away supporters?

If the WRU hadn't scheduled a Test match to clash with a Welsh derby, I'm sure the attendance would have been better.

Metal Tiger wrote:

Gibson wrote:
Spot on Mike. The 4 regions are fighting a far more popular and cash-rich - 5th Region. Soccerball.

Everyone likes to bring up the population arguement to explain high English attendances, but that is a complete smokescreen. We face exactly the same issue being the 3rd most popular sport behind Soccer & Cricket and significantly a way behind too... it's not even a close 3rd. You just have to look at the lower end of the premiership for evidence of that.

Just speaking for my home city of Leicester, there is quite a comparison here between it & Cardiff. Roughly the same size, roughly the same sort of population. There are a hell of a lot of rugby clubs based in and around the city and again in the wider county, probably more than any other city in England (can't confirm that 'fact' though) so I know of 1000's of Tiger supporters just based in those clubs alone who don't attend Tigers matches because we are actually playing for our local club sides.

If the fixtures fall right then happy days because I get to do both... but thank god for Sky & ESPN otherwise!

It has taken decades to build up that support and the gradual improvement & addition of the stands over those decades. It's a long process.

You can't just create a new team, plonk it in a 25,000 seater stadium and then wonder why your not even half filling it.

Sometimes I think it was a mistake for the Welsh to go into the MagnersCelticRobocopPro12, they should have looked to join the premiership (I know something along those lines were kicked around but there was the issue of promotion/relegation) there is always a bit more va-va-voom between English & Welsh fixtures and your fans certainly would have a lot less travelling (yes I know Dub is an easy ferry ride but can be expensive) and you would benefit from large travelling support from teams like Tigers, Saints, Glaw etc.

I think the ideal would be a British league but the problem would be that the English Premiership sides would want too much of the pie and too muich control over it. I think the attendances and importance of each fixture would certainly improve then.


I totally agree about it taking time to build up the support. I think the regions are beginning to see pay off and I think that within the next 5 years there will be a welsh champion of Europe. Once the regions start seeing success like that they will start to gain more fans and bigger crowds. It would be interesting to see how many more fans Swansea City have this season than they did last season. Success breeds followers.

I think it is interesting to compare Leicester and Cardiff. Leicester may have a similar population but I strongly suspect that income per capita would be higher than in Cardiff. Leicestershire is a wealthy area but are the surroundings of Cardiff perhaps a little less well to do? That is a theory not a statement by the way...

Would the Swans have sold as many season tickets if tgey were the new Bolton? I think not. Success isn't always about winning. Sonetmes it's about the attitude of adventure. We may not win, but we will bust a gut trying. That's what you get at Dave Parade and Parc y Shambles.

HammerofThunor wrote:For comparison (London double header removed)

Tiger - 18379
Saints- 12990
Gloucester - 12918
Harlequins - 11447
Bath - 11220
Worcester - 9163
Irish - 7489
Sale - 7287
Exeter - 7150
Wasps - 6303
Saracens - 5944
Newcastle - 4632

Saracens are the standout.

HammerofThunor I could go into the details but I'll leave it to another thread.

And using the football excuse doesnt really hold water, It can be argued that the Ospreys have been more successful than the "Swans", and just look at Leicester for example ...... not any bigger than Cardiff or Swansea areas, and yet the attendances in 2011 are approx

Football = 23,666
Rugby = 18,400

That's down for Tigers. They are currently suffering from a poor run of form which doesn't help attendences and with all their league games bar one on Sky or ESPN so far this season attendences have not been at their usual level. Saints at the weekend is a complete sell out so that should help push up the average a touch.

so I know of 1000's of Tiger supporters just based in those clubs alone who don't attend Tigers matches because we are actually playing for our local club sides

Me included in that. Hence why Sky and ESPN combined with the red button are so helpful!

Leicester may have a similar population but I strongly suspect that income per capita would be higher than in Cardiff

Hmm would be interesting if we could see some statistics on that. There are some wealthy areas of Leicestershire but Leicester itself isn't very wealthy and the surrounding area has seen some serious job losses (in Loughborough at Astra Zenica for instance), particularly in the north of the county where a portion work in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire where things have been tough as well. It's not as wealthy as you think.

Maybe there is something in the theory that televising games inpacts attendances?

In rugby, if you support one team in the English Premiership then what's the odds that your team will be on TV? Maybe a hand full of games per season, and that's if you've got sky and/or ESPN.

In football in Wales, how many Swansea or Cardiff games can you watch on TV per season? Maybe a couple, so you have to go to the game to get your fill.

With the Welsh regions last week I watched ALL regions play for free on BBC and S4C. Most weekends they will televise 2 or sometimes 3 of the fixtures on BBC Wales/S4C. And if they don't then BBC ALBA or NI will show them. In fact, it's generally the games away in Italy that aren't televised. I can therefore watch most welsh regional games for free in the comfort of my own home. I'm a Dragons season ticket holder so choose to go to those home games, but I have to admit I don't bother going to away fixures as I can watch it at home, e.g. Scarlets v Dragons last Friday (not to mention 7.05pm kickoff - how are you meant to finish work at 5pm, pick the kids up from nursery, get them home and get to Llanelli for kick off???. Most of our games are on a Friday night, whether televised or not, but that's another matter).

So, in summary, and being probably a bit too simplistic, the most televised sport (welsh regional rugby) gets the lowest support, whereas those that are not televised much get double the support. Could there be something in this? Certainly in my group of mates if the Dragons are playing away we go to someone's house to watch it with a few beers rather than going to a game. That's 100% of the people I go to the Dragons with!

Cymroglan wrote:I'm not even sure why people would compare the attendances of England and Wales when there is a huge difference in the population size London alone has three times more people than all of Wales.
.

True but only one of the English clubs is based in London so not sure of the point

mckay1402 wrote: I think it is interesting to compare Leicester and Cardiff. Leicester may have a similar population but I strongly suspect that income per capita would be higher than in Cardiff.

I know both Leicester and Cardiff quite well and I doubt there is much difference in per capita income.
My impression on non match days is you are far more likely to come across a Tigers fan in Leicester than a Blues fan in Cardiff.
There just seems to be more interest in the local team in Leicester than in Cardiff - very subjective I know.
Any per capita difference doesn't explain why Leicester crowds are averaging 3x Cardiff crowds - other factors at play here.

Hey Dreamer, it's not that i didn't trust your stats, but i wanted to see what the average was for other clubs in the pro 12 and according to the figures on the pro12 website here's the average attendance for all of the clubs:

Aironi 2675
Blues 5767
Connacht 3804
Dragons 4376
Edinburgh 2961
Leinster 21511
Munster 11688
Ospreys 6850
Scarlets 7306
Treviso 3683
Ulster 6778
Warriors 3173

IronMike wrote:Average attendances for the 2011/2012 season

Cardiff City FC - 8 games
21,959

Swansea City FC - 6 games
19,767

If only Rugby could catch up to those numbers, we'd be happy breaking the double figures on average

Problem is, it has only ever been those 2 teams in wales that football fans would support (besides wrexham in the north and newport on a smaller level). In Rugby, there were more professional clubs to follow and thus allegences were made and are still there today. You have people all over the valleys coming down to support cardiff city, but the a lot of rugby fans in the valleys won't support the blues because of allegences to, for instance, ponty.

Ah yours might well be right Mick, think whoever posted the stats on the other webiste just went game by game and worked out the average from that.

Interesting that the average is more for the O's and Scarlets on the Pro12 site, but quite a bit lower for the Blues and Dragons (especially the Blues).


Although looking at yours, apart from Leinster and Munster, those are quite disappointing figures really aren't they?

Mickado wrote:Hey Dreamer, it's not that i didn't trust your stats, but i wanted to see what the average was for other clubs in the pro 12 and according to the figures on the pro12 website here's the average attendance for all of the clubs:

Leinster 21511

What time period does this cover? I am guessing it must include some matches at the Aviva as I thought the capacity of teh RDS was lower than that.

In rugby, if you support one team in the English Premiership then what's the odds that your team will be on TV? Maybe a hand full of games per season, and that's if you've got sky and/or ESPN.

If you're a Tigers fan then every game bar the Exeter game in the AP and the LV Cup game vs Gloucester has been televised this season. Not sure what it's like for other clubs but there is normally three or four games televised each weekend across Sky and ESPN.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

In rugby, if you support one team in the English Premiership then what's the odds that your team will be on TV? Maybe a hand full of games per season, and that's if you've got sky and/or ESPN.

If you're a Tigers fan then every game bar the Exeter game in the AP and the LV Cup game vs Gloucester has been televised this season. Not sure what it's like for other clubs but there is normally three or four games televised each weekend across Sky and ESPN.

Was the match against Wasps televised?

Yeah we played Munster in the Lansdowne Road,so that skew the numbers.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

In rugby, if you support one team in the English Premiership then what's the odds that your team will be on TV? Maybe a hand full of games per season, and that's if you've got sky and/or ESPN.

If you're a Tigers fan then every game bar the Exeter game in the AP and the LV Cup game vs Gloucester has been televised this season. Not sure what it's like for other clubs but there is normally three or four games televised each weekend across Sky and ESPN.

Really? I've got Sky Sports myslef and try to catch as much of the AP as possible, but hadn't noticed that teams are televised so much. Is this the same for all teams? Do Newcastle and Sale games, for example, get televised most weekends?

I'm not sure the TV thing explains it. Leinster v Munster was televised live on free to air but 50,000 people went to see it.

I found this

Spoiler:

Leinster and Munsters attendances were once very low. It seems the explosion in attendances in Leinster and Munster corresponds with success in the Heineken Cup.

LondonTiger wrote:

Mickado wrote:Hey Dreamer, it's not that i didn't trust your stats, but i wanted to see what the average was for other clubs in the pro 12 and according to the figures on the pro12 website here's the average attendance for all of the clubs:

Leinster 21511

What time period does this cover? I am guessing it must include some matches at the Aviva as I thought the capacity of teh RDS was lower than that.

Without the match in Lansdowne the average attendance is 14797. But i see no reason to remove that from the list. Removing a double header from London teams to get average Premiership attendances does make sense though.

I think theres a lot of reasons why the attendances are so low, but for me, the main one is that we now have 4 super clubs, they dont tend to represent their "region" at all. I mean come on, even half of the commentators/pundits still call them by "Cardiff/Newport/Llanelli" - Its only really the ospreys that arent regularly called by a place name, now thats going to alienate people further again. Add to that the inter-club rivalry and regions being perceived to help out particular clubs (oh ho ho, the clubs in the same city/town that they're based) more than others within their region and its going to alientate people further.

I think someones mentioned it on this thread already, but the WRU took existing top-level clubs in Wales, tried to superceed them with these super clubs(regions) and the support didnt naturally intergrate as the WRU expected. Basically, the WRU didnt expect people to be bitter that they were having their life-long clubs demoted to be replaced by (possibly) a bitter rival's superclub that they were then going to have to support to support "their" team at the top level.

Frankly, if the WRU didnt expect this mess, I'm available to conduct business 101 with them.

I agree with the regions having to focus on the younger generations and really trying to build a history of their own, not-linked to the clubs as such, that takes time, a lot of time, success doesnt hurt either.

ESPN show two matches almost every weekend. SKY show at least one sometimes two and then we have the European blanket coverage.

TV will have an affect on attendances but this can be managed.

The thing that stands out for me is that the teams leading the AP attendances with averages in excess of 10k are all in towns that could be called traditional Rugby areas with most having little impact from soccer. Lower down the attendances for Exeter and Worcester are impressive.

While the Welsh regions are new and it takes time to build up a fanbase there is no reason why the Dragons should not be looking to grow their crowds significantly. After all Newport has a bigger population than Worcester or Exeter.

Equally Leicester shows that a city (similar in size to Swansea, smaller than Cardiff) can get crowds of 20k for both rugby and football.

Do Newcastle and Sale games, for example, get televised most weekends?.

They normally get some coverage on the basis that they play on a Friday night and so ESPN pick them up.

http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/1stxv_fixtures.php

All December and January games to be covered in some shape of form apart from the LV Cup (though that could change). The rest is yet to be announced.

The other thing to bare in mind is teams may not have played an equal spread of attractive fixtures.

Ulster have for example played - Glasgow, Trevison, Connacht and Cardiff. With due respec to those teams that is, usually, 2 medium and 2 low attendances.

After Scarlets (medium) and Munster (high) I would expect Ulster crowd average to be more like Cardiff's and probably more.

Mid season figures tend to be distorted for this reason.

Can I just say that this is a great debate, and so far it's good that it hasn't gone down the mud slinging, 'my league is better than yours' sort of route! Good stuff.

I'm just throwing ideas out there which is why I mentioned the tv coverage theory. It could be wrong, and people have made good points as to why it is wrong.

So far we've had the following theroies for why the welsh figures are so low:

TV Coverage of nearly all games - personally I see something in it. Just from personal experience I, and friends, do not go to away games in Wales as we can watch in the local or at home, or can't get to it on a Friday without taking time off work (Scarlets games/overseas games). I've also been known to miss the odd Dragons home game, e.g. Dragons v Aironi, as it was a rush to get there after work, it wasn't exactly a block buster of a game, and it was on TV. Shocking attitude I know, but I'm just being honest!

Football as competition - personally don't agree as they tend not to be the same supporters, although some fans will make the move. Ask yourself, if your town, e.g. Worcester, Leicester, Northampton, Exeter made it to the football premiership would you stop supporting your rugby team and ditch your season ticket? For me, if Newport County got there then no. I would not suddenly become a football fan.

Disenfranchised fans - another contributing factor I think. Remember, a lot of the semi pro teams have still retained a large number of fans. Newport RFC, Ebbw Vale, Cross Keys, etc. in the Gwent region didn't suddenly disband at the advent of regional rugby. Some of their fans remember the clubs from the amateur days, so returning to the amateur days is nothing for them. They'll carry on as before. The regions are therefore reliant on new support and you can't guarantee this from the off. I was a Newport RFC season ticket holder. I decided to make the break, but there's loads who didn't. You can't criticise them either. They can support who they like. You wouldn't tell an Esher fan to support the nearest AP side just because they are close to them and in the AP, or Stockport Country fans to support Man Utd because they are the nearest premier league team. People will support who they want, the 'old' fans are still there and supporting their club sides, so it will take time to start a fan base from scratch.

Travelling support - not a great reason as the Irish Provinces get good gates without good travelling support from Wales and Scotland, but I do think it makes a difference when comparing to English gates. Not many fans from ireland seem to make the trip to Dragons games, and why would they, but I bet quite a few Gloucester fans travel to Leicester or Northampton? Proximity to league rivals therefore helps the gate figures in England?

Any more? I think it's a combination of all of the above in Wales. It's only diehard fans, who've denounced their old club allegiance to follow a new concept, and who aren't on the fence between football and rugby, who don't mind braving the elements instead of the easy option of watching any game at home, and who can afford it in the current climate. Those who can tick all of these boxes are not too plentiful I would argue.

Ireland has another advantage. People tend to support many sports. But attending live Irish soccer is almost non-existent. Our best players play in England. People support English teams and watch them in the pub. And the All Ireland Gaelic football and Hurling Championships occur in the summer. So rugby had no competition really for attending top level winter sport. When rugby started to get "cool" (due to success on the field) people flocked to it quite quickly because they weren't going to anything else.

There's also the fact that the four provinces were not fake constructs and it was much easier to generate loyalty to them. When I started to follow rugby there was only one team I was going to support. Leinster. Because I'm from Leinster. The fact that the ground is in South Dublin doesn't change the fact that Leinster is Leinster and that's the province I'm from. They're having difficulty in Wales with generating support from across a region that is not actually a real region in peoples minds. They've just been made up by the WRU very recently.

I think one of the main problems with people attending is the fact that the modern stadiums are just so difficult to get to, they're built in out-of-town shopping centres that don't like their car park spaces taken up by fans, combine that with high ticket prices and it's just easier for the not so dedicated fans to watch on tv. Unfortunately in this recession and with out-of-town stadiums the Regions are suffering

Ive been to Cardiff City Stadium. It is very easy to get to.

Also the ticket prices aren't high.

IMO those are both excuses not actual reasons.

Agree with you completely Stag.

PyS isn't difficult to get to either, and they run a great parc and ride service to it throughout Llanelli (although it would be helpful if they put the timetable up on the website!) Rodney Parade is a short walk from the stadium. THe O's have parking facilities (same as PyS) a short walk from the stadium, and they have a park and ride from the train station to.

Aslo from a Scarlet perspective, we are currently trying really hard to get away from the Llanelli link. We no longer have free tickets to see Llanelli RFC play in with the Scarlets season ticket package. We are also utilising our other feeder clubs better this season. Tis no coincidence that Llandovery are top of the welsh premiership at the moment. We are splitting the talent between Llanelli, Llandovery and even the Quins now, which is exactly as it should be.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ireland has another advantage. People tend to support many sports. But attending live Irish soccer is almost non-existent. Our best players play in England. People support English teams and watch them in the pub. And the All Ireland Gaelic football and Hurling Championships occur in the summer. So rugby had no competition really for attending top level winter sport. When rugby started to get "cool" (due to success on the field) people flocked to it quite quickly because they weren't going to anything else.

There's also the fact that the four provinces were not fake constructs and it was much easier to generate loyalty to them. When I started to follow rugby there was only one team I was going to support. Leinster. Because I'm from Leinster. The fact that the ground is in South Dublin doesn't change the fact that Leinster is Leinster and that's the province I'm from. They're having difficulty in Wales with generating support from across a region that is not actually a real region in peoples minds. They've just been made up by the WRU very recently.

Excellent post Feckless. I've said it elsewhere, although forgot to mention it here. I've always been envious of the provinces of Ireland in sporting terms because there's a ready made divide, a nice neat split of the country into 4, well before rugby became big (or was even invented???), and that makes supporting your province really easy. There's too many counties in Wales to use that as a basis for the teams. In an ideal world they would have divided Wales into 4 equal rugby provinces that covered the whole country, built new stadia in these provinces where the majority of the population and transport links are, and tried to grow support that way. However, in reality where would the money come from for new stadia and such things? We're still relying on benefactors at 2 of the regions, and it looks like Tony Brown is getting his foot back in the door in Gwent.

However, I'm not sure what else they could have done without the new stadia that was free of ties to existing clubs? They have to play somewhere, and that somewhere is at the home of exisiting clubs seen as rivals of other fans in your 'province'.

I think other factors that need to be considered when comparing Leicester to Cardiff are that although they are of similar size, within 25 miles of Cardiff are a very small city (Newport) - with it's own team, and big rival, a reasonably big town (Bridgend) - disenfranchised by regionalism and the Warriors debacle, and the small towns and villages in the Valleys - very disenfranchised.

Leicester has Birmingham - the 2nd biggest city in the UK (as far as I know), Coventry - a city, Nottingham - a big city and Derby - a big city - none of whom have a comparitive rugby team.

There are also good transport links among those cities (much better than S Wales, even the Cardiff - Swansea M4 stretch pales in comparison), the links to high up the valleys are very bad - especially bus.

Another thing is that the Valleys (and Gwent Valleys) are one of the poorest regions in Europe and the whole of South Wales is reliant on Public Sector employment and has taken a huge hit in recent years.

The other major difference is that Leicester have a tremendous history (130 years! compared to 8 years of regionalism), a great culture - huge amounts of past success and have over decades and decades built and strengthened links while their fans - who have then spread around the country and world but may still visit while new fans will move into Leicester.

I imagine in another 10 years all the regions will be getting much better attendances, and have built much stronger ties to the 'clubs' and then they will continue to grow - but it will take decades of work to get anywhere near Leicester I would imagine (though of course a HEC or 2 would help).

Another thing is that BBC Wales/S4C are free and show practically all home games for the regions - not everyone subscribes to Sky/ESPN and not every home game will be shown on it.

IMO the answer is clear. Since regionalism a Welsh region has yet to make it to a European Cup final.

Therefore there are still cynics and skeptics who feel the old system was better.

Whenever a region wins the HEC or I would say makes the final, things will catch on pretty quick.

Its all about perspective. In the late 1990s there were criticisms that Munster had a divided fan base. Now we talk about how Musnter move their games around the province and how great it is to see the games being shared out.

Success breeds success. Its little to do with ticket prices, or games on S4C or the concept of regionalism. Its merely down to consistent winning performances on a European level. Do that and fans will come.