Are Wales better than Ireland?

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For most of the 00's Ireland had Wales number. We had a better team. And nearly always won when we met. The last few years show they've at least caught up. Under Kidney it's two wins and two defeats. 2-1 to Ireland in the 6 Nations. The Irish can go on about the illegal try last year but I'm in no doubt Ireland were very poor that day and didn't deserve to win. Wales were very poor too actually but they finished ahead on the scoreboard and we can't know what would have happened if the try wasn't given. So we just have to accept the result as it stands. Then Wales won the all important World Cup quarter final that both sides had been building towards for years. And they won it convincingly. That makes it two wins on the bounce for Wales.

The teams look quite evenly matched on paper. Both have solid scrums. Ireland have the edge in the 2nd row I think. We thought we had a clear advantage in the back row. But Wales dealt with it very well last time. Wales are clearly better at 9, 12 and 13 now. In the World Cup match they dealt with our back row, they targeted ROG and put him off his game and exploited their advantage in midfield. It was a great performance. But was it just a case of a one off great game plan executed well? Like Ireland's win over Australia. Or is there not much we can do to prevent them from doing the same again? Do they have our number now?

In my mind the jury is still out on their young back row. We'll have them analysed to death for the next game. If we can beat them here, we can negate any midfield advantage they have. If they repeat their World Cup display and nullify our back row then it's difficult to see the next match going differently. So what do ye think? Have the Welsh overtaken of us, or are we about to see Ireland get sweet revenge? Or is it to close to call?

There are a few ways to hunt a bear Rodders. Irish sides with small men have taken down big men before. Not only will Roberts not (well he won't be now anyway) but not only would he not have been the only large 12 with grit, legs and bad attitude that our guys would have had to meet in the Six Nations, if we don't have a plan for them then Ireland might as well not show up this year at all with d'Arcy and Earls.

Rodders is right! Paddy Wallaces problem is he looks like a bad tackler. Not when he's tackling, he just doesn't look like a big guy and he isn't particularly either.

Also he had that run of head injuries in the 2009 Six Nations. I get this impression the majority of Ireland fans have this impression of Wallace as this puny guy who's always bleeding and getting knocked out!

The truth is, he looks small by rugby standards but he's just a normal sized guy and in very good condition. But he's almost reckless trying to make up for that size differential, he really throws himself into the physical side of the game and works hard on his tackling. He has very good technique in the tackle area too. Most of those head injuries came from putting his head where a lot of us wouldn't dare!

Early in his career, he was a creative, talented player who would never have got a look in for Ireland given he was too lightweight in the tackle area and rightly so. Unfortunately his reputation with the fans hasn't moved in step with how he's viewed (more accurately) by the coaches; a solid and capable defender.

But he is still giving up quite a few stone in comparison to Roberts, as are all our other centres, so we need more than commitment. We need a coaching masterstroke from Les Kiss if we want to consistently stop them on the gainline...

SecretFly wrote: if we don't have a plan for them then Ireland might as well not show up this year at all with d'Arcy and Earls.

Cough cough...well its funny you should say that......

Its not about bringing the man down fly its about stopping him on the gainline and controlling the contact. Bringing Roberts down is no use if he's getting 5-10m over the gainline every carry, which is what happened in the RWC. Thats why our players were shattered on 60 minutes and Phillips and Davies were able to waltz through, why Wales backrow dominated the 2nd half....if you are backpeddling the whole game then you have no chance.

That is why Roberts is so important he gaves that constant midfield target and it is so crucial with the 'new' breakdown rules and the fact that defences have to stand deeper. Its almost undefendable and the only way to stop it is the defending 12 has to stop the attacking 12 in his tracks and hammer him backwards.

Size wise Roberts is 7kg heavier than Davies, both are over six foot and over 16 1/2 stone. Your going to get one of the two running at your midfield.

Easy way to deal with Roberts when Wales are on the attack is to play the 14 man defence by having two men tackle Roberts.
But the problem for the defending side and a blessing for Wales is that we now have a big backline from 9 to 14.

Personally I think Roberts will be available for the Ireland game.

I see teams defend it well all the time, it's about slow ball off the next phase. Hold the guy up if you can, force them to maul it or commit more players to bring the ruck about and get your flankers in to contest possession. Always try and contest possession if they are going with the crash ball because the whole point is to get quick ball off the next phase. What it does do is suck players in. Ball needs to come back slowly otherwise you are stretched.

It's easy to make a plan to defend it, easier said than done to implement it but what I would say is that pretty much all top Heineken Cup and International teams will defend it well enough.

Unfortunately Ireland may end up being the exception to that rule, we need Ferris and O'Brien to have big games in defence! Of course off scrums and some lineouts they can't be out there and thats where Wales will fancy it.

Cymroglan wrote:
Personally I think Roberts will be available for the Ireland game.

So good to have your input here Doctor

So we've lost the game if Earls, D'arcy and Roberts show up on the same field? Oh well, there goes the premature celebrations.....

SecretFly wrote:So we've lost the game if Earls, D'arcy and Roberts show up on the same field? Oh well, there goes the premature celebrations.....

Well not nessarily but it will be difficult, especially if Wales get a solid scrum platform. If the same personnel are picked and we play same way then I'd expect a similar result.

Obviously the way to combat it is to retain possession, not boot the ball away or spin the ball wide in your own half, not force the play and make unforced errors. Can Ireland do that? That is the big question for me.

Leinster play a really controlled and varied game and know when to up the pace, that is why they are the best. By contrast Ireland are predictable in attack and alternate between spinning the ball wide and forcing the pass when there is nothing on and kicking the ball away. There is no plan B. Hopefully this will change and it has to for us to challenge for the title.

Secret fly since its inception,by history Wales have better overall stats than Ireland.
NOT perhaps head to head,exrtapolate 5Ns for 6Ns.

emack2 wrote:Secret fly since its inception,by history Wales have better overall stats than Ireland.
NOT perhaps head to head,exrtapolate 5Ns for 6Ns.

Do you have a non statistical opinion? Maybe the merits of the teams likely line ups and form?

6 Nations overall record

Ireland - Played 60; Won 43; Drew 0; Lost 17
Wales - Played 60; Won 27; Drew 2; Lost 31

Ireland - 4 Triple Crowns, 1 Championship (Grand Slam)
Wales - 2 Championships (both Grand Slams)

Head to Head

Played 12

Ireland 8 wins
Wales 4 wins

World Cup record - Don't want to talk about it.

Feckless Rogue wrote:World Cup record - Don't want to talk about it.

There is only one RWC between the teams since the start of the Six nations in the new Millennium.

There is little between the two teams. What Ireland are missing in a fit and on form BOD, they gain in Home advantage in Dublin.

Watching the Leinster vs Montpellier match at the moment.

Stats are only relevant if the vast majority of the present squad were involved in the match otherwise we may as well use stats from 1883 onwards

Cian Healy just hobbled off injured...! knee or ligament damage I think?

Some of the Irish team were

He looked in pain , big blow for Leinster

THE CORRECT STATS.Wales versus Ireland .Played 116 ,Wales 64,Ireland 46,wins,6 draws.Ireland has a 39.66% win/loss ratio.
NO,I do not have any insights concerning players,BUT the recall of gavin Henson smacks of last chance saloon for him.
I would expect Home Advantage to be decisive in these matches,difficult to judge on the relavent RWC matches.

emack2 wrote:Secret fly since its inception,by history Wales have better overall stats than Ireland.
NOT perhaps head to head,exrtapolate 5Ns for 6Ns.

Yes but 5 Nations and 6 Nations are two distinct competitions. One ended in 1999 and the other began in 2000. Before the Five Nations there was a Home Nations championship but you couldn't very well tell France how they never won that. A different competition. The talk this time was of Six Nations and in that regard I think Ireland hold the better record overall.

Six Nations: All sides have played 60 games. France have 44 wins, Ireland 43, England 39 and Wales 27. Wales have 2 GSs, Ireland 1. Ireland 6 times runners-up.

The Six Nations almost coincided with the dawn of professionalism - full time players. And in that 'overall' board, Ireland again look to me like coming in better.

Overall since Professionalism started up in 1995: Wales have had 194 games; 93 wins. Ireland have had 173 games; 96 wins.

Success is in the eye of the beholder, and the criteria used

All of that will mean Flip all in a fortnights time.

Healy injured? Time to test this depth theory. Big blow for Ireland.

Very interesting numbers. I think home advantage and how many first choice players one or the other side can select will be the biggest advantages.

AS per usual with the HEC weekend prior to the Six Nations the international players are falling like flies.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Healy injured? Time to test this depth theory. Big blow for Ireland.

Matthew Rees, James Hook, Rhys Priestland and Dan Lydiate all injured for Wales yesterday. Added to Ryan Jones and Jamie Roberts.

Injuries were a problem for England. Now Wales look like they´re having problems. This is good news for France. A high attrition rate will work in favour for a squad of big players.

Yes England are missing Flood, Wood and Care too, I think Ireland will be missing a few too, Cian Healy was injured yesterday and he will be a huge loss to them.

Regarding all the teams though it is a great chance to blood young players who are pushing for selection.

Could well be some exciting new International careers about to start.

Could well be. Bound to be a few casualties as well though if a team loses and a new cap gets the blame. For every success story there´s usually a couple of failures.

I don't think Rees or Ryan Jones are injury doubts mind.

I support neither side,so you can take my words for as much or as little as you wish.Both sides on there day can beat almost anyone 6Ns[sides],at home especially both are formidable.
This year the 6Ns is the most open for years,England and France have a new Coaching setup.
ALL sides seem in the re-building process Wales according to Brian Moore need to front up more in the Forwards.
If they are to be more successful,his words not mine,injuries seem to hampering Wales and England at the start of this years Campaign..
Jamie Roberts for all his qualities is not a midfield creator like BOD,or Conrad Smith for example.
Both sides had good RWC wins,Wales not sure about theres,dropping a try from the kickoff.To the Boks did`nt help them.For all there endeavour it seemed that if needed The Boks had enough to strike back for a win if required.
HAD Wales moved the ball quickly from the point of breakdown,THEN they may have cracked the Boks.
The Scrum half waiting to have a cup of tea,before moving it at each while the Boks reset there Defences was stupid.
Ireland strangled Australia as they did England last year,i`ve lost count over the years .When a match versus Ireland cost a Championship,Grand Slam or Triple Crown.

emack2 wrote:This year the 6Ns is the most open for years

Don't we say this every year? Along with Scotland being dark horses, France being unpredictable, Wales needing to start well and Italy being tough to beat at home?

SafeAsMilk wrote:

emack2 wrote:This year the 6Ns is the most open for years

Don't we say this every year? Along with Scotland being dark horses, France being unpredictable, Wales needing to start well and Italy being tough to beat at home?

Every year you're right but it is lol

..and the 15 Irish players being one kicking away from retirement.

... and England on new-Manager season knife-edge - again.

All being read from old parchment by Eddie Butler in front of a roaring fire with Brian Moore curled at his feet, grawing on an old bone and growling.

emack2 wrote:I support neither side,so you can take my words for as much or as little as you wish.Both sides on there day can beat almost anyone 6Ns[sides],at home especially both are formidable.
This year the 6Ns is the most open for years,England and France have a new Coaching setup.
ALL sides seem in the re-building process Wales according to Brian Moore need to front up more in the Forwards.
If they are to be more successful,his words not mine,injuries seem to hampering Wales and England at the start of this years Campaign..
Jamie Roberts for all his qualities is not a midfield creator like BOD,or Conrad Smith for example.
Both sides had good RWC wins,Wales not sure about theres,dropping a try from the kickoff.To the Boks did`nt help them.For all there endeavour it seemed that if needed The Boks had enough to strike back for a win if required.
HAD Wales moved the ball quickly from the point of breakdown,THEN they may have cracked the Boks.
The Scrum half waiting to have a cup of tea,before moving it at each while the Boks reset there Defences was stupid
Ireland strangled Australia as they did England last year,i`ve lost count over the years .When a match versus Ireland cost a Championship,Grand Slam or Triple Crown.

NOt sure how you can say Wales are in a rebuilding phase emack. Apart from the #14 jersey (North is probably going to line up at 11) Wales have a settled squad and are develping consistency. If you look at the welsh posts on our team you will see that there are no arguments on front row, second row and back row. Phillips is nailed on for the scrum half position and his deputies are already identified, have been to a RWC and have experienced top level international rugby. Yes there is always the perennial outside half arguments but most people are happy with Priestland and its who the subs are that is causing arguments amonhgst my countrymen.

Our centres that have been picked are all experienced internationals now with Roberts, Davies, Williamd and Henson having a clutch of caps between them. North and Halfpenny are certainties in he back three although where halfpenny fits in depends on Byrne's form. Wales have been in a rebuilding phase from 2009 wjen Gatland dismantled the 08 Grand slam team and gave the youngsters a chance. It didnt simply happen in the RWC. It so frustrates me that people keep thinking that.

So I would say Wales are looking to develop more experience and a killer edge but the players are already in situ and have considerable experience already. Average age of 25 with 850 caps between them. compare that to England who have started a rebuilding process. Average age 25 and 420 caps. As for France well PSA will change things up but I dounbt there will be a massive change in personnel. Ireland probably should have been bolder in selection and looked to their talented youngsters coming through but they havent taken that leap with their squad and Scotland have got what they have and will do their best with it. Only England can use the excuse that 2012 has been about rebuilding, Wales cant neither can Ireland or France.

TycroesOsprey wrote: Only England can use the excuse that 2012 has been about rebuilding.

Rebuilding what? No, I'm not trying to be smart with you or about England?

If it is called rebuilding in 2012 then I'd far rather call it tearing down.

They won the last 6N. They were not a bad side at WC but an indisciplined one. They had stars aplenty that could hold their own and then give it some. They had a coach who took some time to heat up and learn his job but who was beginning to make his presence felt and they sacked him (yeah, he walked in euphemistic language). England only needs - or needed - some fine tuning and tweeking but they...well, they listened to the media critics again and said, let's do what we always do in a crisis and start again.

I wouldn't call it rebuilding, I'd call it criminal neglect of an already sturdy building.

NOt sure I agree with that assessment of the English in 2011 Fly.

They beat Wales in cadiff convincingly in teh 6N but after that the performances declined considerably. The English pack that once upon a time would strike fear in anyone no longer does. They lacked midfield creativity, taht choked the ball to their very talented strike runners in Foden and Ashton.

As for MJ well in 2010 he had me worried as England were developing nicely but then they regressed in tactics and results. MJ went back on the old tried and tested route of Forward dominance to win games. Unfortunatly he didnt posess the personnel to intimidate teams up front. So honestly after 3.5 years in charge I dont think Matin Johnson had taken the team forward.

It was never going to be about tweaking things for this season they had to develop a new team. Lancaster has done that and I think should be applauded for it. As for the indiiscipline and behavior of the payers, whilst they have to shoulder the blame for behaving in such a disgraceful way the management team has to accept that such behavior stemmed from a failure of management. Paying for the guys bar bill, denying there was a problem. decieving the press, cheating over the balls.

All of these are signs just how badly ythe England management failed. Both the team and management needed shaking up.

Well we'll have to disagree on the reading then Tycroes. I just don't think things were as bad as a WC hotbed of English media collecting in the same place as young men misbehaving suggested. It was just all over a classic pay-day for the usual headlines that follow English sides and a bloody silly breakdown of young drunk men. The papers made loadsa money on that one, which was the well laid plan.

Not apologising for the players. They did wrong, some of them, and others just were having a fun time and were filmed being drunk.

You don't win 6N and become a terrible team overnight. It needed tweaking in my opinion and I'm sure had Johnson stayed he would have dragged them back to real contenders for the next home WC. You won't agree but there you go - looking from the outside in it was far less serious than the drama suggested - but then England do drama (especially organisational drama) so well.

Now, for a final little thought. If England can churn through the last 6 Nations and then be so easily seen the following year as a team that needs total refit of all concerned. Hmmm, where does that leave Welsh confidence now? Would they really be a dreadful side that needs a total overhaul if they have a less than successful 6N? I think not. They'll keep their heads and tweak if that happens

I thought this was about Ireland and Wales not England and Wales.


After watching the Irish play this weekend and to answer the question, Id have to say no.
However, the Irish national side rarely manages to bring that intensity shown by Munster and Leinster (and Ulster too now) to the 6N in any kind of consistent way.
They did against England last year and slaughtered them. Tley obviously have the players to do it and looking at the HC Ireland are better than Wales by a fair margin. Hopefully Wales can counter the Irish threat as they did in the WC.
I think this could be the match of the tournament if both teams play to their potential.

overlordofthewest wrote:I thought this was about Ireland and Wales not England and Wales.


After watching the Irish play this weekend and to answer the question, Id have to say no.
However, the Irish national side rarely manages to bring that intensity shown by Munster and Leinster (and Ulster too now) to the 6N in any kind of consistent way.
They did against England last year and slaughtered them. Tley obviously have the players to do it and looking at the HC Ireland are better than Wales by a fair margin. Hopefully Wales can counter the Irish threat as they did in the WC.
I think this could be the match of the tournament if both teams play to their potential.

sorry, carry on Wales v Ireland

I think Welsh confidence is where it should be having istened to Gatland. He and the team are well aware we have lost our last three matches and knows we are nowhere near the finished article.

Whilst we as fans will always be a slight bit hysterical(were welsh hysteria is what we do well) the squad themseleves know what they need to achieve. What was satisfying was the dissapointment at not getting into the final. ONce upon a time team and fans would have been jumping hoops at having got to the semis. This group of players are a different breed to previous welsh teams.