Are Wales better than Ireland?

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For most of the 00's Ireland had Wales number. We had a better team. And nearly always won when we met. The last few years show they've at least caught up. Under Kidney it's two wins and two defeats. 2-1 to Ireland in the 6 Nations. The Irish can go on about the illegal try last year but I'm in no doubt Ireland were very poor that day and didn't deserve to win. Wales were very poor too actually but they finished ahead on the scoreboard and we can't know what would have happened if the try wasn't given. So we just have to accept the result as it stands. Then Wales won the all important World Cup quarter final that both sides had been building towards for years. And they won it convincingly. That makes it two wins on the bounce for Wales.

The teams look quite evenly matched on paper. Both have solid scrums. Ireland have the edge in the 2nd row I think. We thought we had a clear advantage in the back row. But Wales dealt with it very well last time. Wales are clearly better at 9, 12 and 13 now. In the World Cup match they dealt with our back row, they targeted ROG and put him off his game and exploited their advantage in midfield. It was a great performance. But was it just a case of a one off great game plan executed well? Like Ireland's win over Australia. Or is there not much we can do to prevent them from doing the same again? Do they have our number now?

In my mind the jury is still out on their young back row. We'll have them analysed to death for the next game. If we can beat them here, we can negate any midfield advantage they have. If they repeat their World Cup display and nullify our back row then it's difficult to see the next match going differently. So what do ye think? Have the Welsh overtaken of us, or are we about to see Ireland get sweet revenge? Or is it to close to call?

Gatts wrote:People seem to think HC perfs have any relevance at international time...they don't as has been demonstrated by the last 2 wins over the Irish. Wales are clealry the better side at the moment and will win comfortably.

And the French ?

Gatts wrote:People seem to think HC perfs have any relevance at international time...they don't as has been demonstrated by the last 2 wins over the Irish. Wales are clealry the better side at the moment and will win comfortably.

I have to say if the situation was reversed, I would probably say the same. But they're not and I don't believe this to be the case.

But enjoy it while it lasts.

I agree with Rodders about the respective strength of the teams. If Wales don't have Dr Bob it's really going to be hard.

Gatts wrote:People seem to think HC perfs have any relevance at international time...they don't as has been demonstrated by the last 2 wins over the Irish. Wales are clealry the better side at the moment and will win comfortably.

I'd be very careful as you could have a rather lot of egg on your face after the game making predictions like that! Particularly with the reknowned inconsistency of the Welsh team.

I think Wales can win this game but they are 2 evenly matched teams and both teams could win this and should be looking to win this game. Being in Dublin is going to make it difficult

I think Wales are now the settled team with the wise old heads in ..Warbuton and North and Halfpennny.... ! Much more consistent than Ireland in the last year or two and everyone knowing their roles and what's expected. It's Ireland that are the side needing to blood some new stock to have a go at them .

How's that for an inversion of Six Nation customs

I think Ireland can take a lot of heart out of the Wales story. There were a lot of Welsh posters wondering with dread and horror about Welsh rugby after Martyn Williams. Maybe the same happens more recently with Shane Williams.

Many Irish posters don't want to think about life after BOD. Or for many years fretted about life without ROG. But now there are some names popping up that could be possible replacements and retirement or injury has forced both sides to not only contemplate this possibility of life without these players but find replacements for them.

The trick is to do it slowly and almost imperceptibly. The problem England had in 2003 was that there were wholesale changes to the teams after the World Cup victory with big names in the pack in particular but by no means exclusively leaving the game. That void proved too hard to fill on such a widespread level.

When you look at Ireland, D'Arcy probably has held his place in the Irish side over recent years because of his partnership with BOD and now that BOD is injured, so too ironically has his absence kept him in the squad because two new players is too much inexperience for Kidney´s liking. But as Ireland is slowly phasing out ROG for Sexton, so too does Ireland have the opportunity to phase out this centre partnership slowly that has served Ireland so well over the years. POC can take encouragement from the likes of Thorn and Shaw that a forward can survive test rugby and perform well past your 30s so to me the new centre pairing and possibly a new wing can be eased into the Irish squad now. Gatland had to take more of a gamble with his young backrow and Priestland but Kidney doesn't strike me as the gambling man but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Apart from Wales and possibly France (Italy is irrelevant as unfortunately their backline is effectively redundant), the centre pairing is a problem for the other 6N sides. So Ireland's readjustment can't be capitalised on by an experienced pair.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I think Ireland can take a lot of heart out of the Wales story. There were a lot of Welsh posters wondering with dread and horror about Welsh rugby after Martyn Williams.

yes, but they were Flip wits.

It's Poc Ireland will really miss , DOC is getting on too plus Cullen, is there much lock cover ?

POC isn't going any time soon hopefully and hopefully BOD will come back strong from his injury lay-off.

Ireland has this image of the golden oldies who are on their last legs. But to me there is a nice blend of youth and experience and if you keep blending that vintage wine into the new grapes, you should be able to have something pretty special come out of that blending in the years to come.

Ireland and France have been performing below their potential, whereas Wales have been pushing up to it.

If that continues then Wales will win, if it doesnt they could be in for a tough tournament.

Wales have been applauded for giving their younger players a chance to shine at senior level - showing trust and getting back a performance in kind.

Maybe out of necessity, Gatland might be doing a little of that again this season. New faces given an opportunity. New faces can always unsettle opposing teams as despite all the talk, they can never have enough time to do all the homework and kinda slur over some of it as the day of the game comes.

Ireland, as kia has said and as we all know, STILL have this Golden Generation tag; they don't seem to be able to shake it. Old, stable, not very unpredictable....everyone knows what to expect and what they expect is often the below par side they meet.

But........ whilst one evolves, the other can never last too long. So, whilst Ireland change personnel at what is seen to be a snail's pace. There will come a time when Gatland is told enough is enough. The trial period will have to come to an end. People always get impatient with changes, especially if changes don't bring about results and experimentation will always have a lotto feel of anything can happen.

So eventually Gatland will be told by the Welsh press and fans that he has a first fifteen mostly and to just play it. It kinda happens to all sides.

That's when a side is then better studied, when plans are available to scupper the side, when they become - well, like Ireland; a side full of usual suspects that every opposition team knows how to prepare for. It's a circle and Wales and Ireland are going round the same circle but just at different points.

I think BOD's absence is more significant than many are letting off. Leinster are having a great season without him but unless I'm forgetting something when's the last time Ireland won a big game without BOD leading them? The last notable occasion I recall he went missing was 2007, hailed as a GS push in advance but which was shattered by the French when POC had to step in to fill BOD's shoes.

I honestly believe O'Driscoll has been the best leader available in Ireland for the past decade and while I have no doubt they'll grow to do without him in time, that time is (hopefully) not yet

When the likes of BOD, and POC move on, I think our second rows/centres are going to look like this:

12) Marshall
13) Spence

^ Many will disagree with me but I think this partnership is the real deal. They have looked unreal together as a combination.

4) Ryan
5) Tuohy

These two will form a fantastic partnership as well I feel. They both compliment each others playing style.

Honestly I am not concerned when these players leave at all. We have more than adequate cover, and since I believe combinations are more important than individuals, I think we could do even better.

It´s an interesting one SecretFly. Usually consistency in selection is generally believed to be the ideal goal. Keeping the same team usually means the team is performing. Making changes often implies a determined attempt to change the status quo. So we equate stability with success and change with previous failure.

But then looking at both Ireland and Wales, there have been changes going on in the side. And in part this can be attributed to inconsistency. Just as the myth of the golden generation still persists for Ireland so too does this perception of them having a stable team. But I think both teams out of necessity and also out of a desire to achieve more consistency have been tweaking away at the team to deliver more consistent results.

It'd be interesting to see how many players have represented Ireland and Wales in the past few years. I think you´d find both have selected quite a few and have discarded quite a few.

Shouldn't they start bedding in POC s replacement now rather than later ? He can't have more than a few years left at the top of his game

There's never usually much problem replacing a great player. You miss him initially but you get on without him. England have shown that you can go into a huge dip if you try and replace a large number of great players at the same time. I think Ireland have already avoided that fate. They've retired Foley, Dempsey, Horgan, Hickey, Hayes, Horan etc. and replaced them over time. There are ready made replacements for David Wallace and ROG, with a fair bit of experience, even though Wally and ROG haven't hung up their boots yet.

The only two players left to replace from Ireland's successful 00's period are BOD and POC. They also happen to be our two best players and leaders. I think POC will play on a couple of years longer than BOD. He might even go on as long as Thorn who knows? So we just have to replace these two great players one at a time over the next few years. So we should be alright.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It´s an interesting one SecretFly. Usually consistency in selection is generally believed to be the ideal goal. Keeping the same team usually means the team is performing. Making changes often implies a determined attempt to change the status quo. So we equate stability with success and change with previous failure.

But then looking at both Ireland and Wales, there have been changes going on in the side. And in part this can be attributed to inconsistency. Just as the myth of the golden generation still persists for Ireland so too does this perception of them having a stable team. But I think both teams out of necessity and also out of a desire to achieve more consistency have been tweaking away at the team to deliver more consistent results.

It'd be interesting to see how many players have represented Ireland and Wales in the past few years. I think you´d find both have selected quite a few and have discarded quite a few.

I agree, Kia, but I'm talking about perceptions. Right now Wales is seen as the side that are letting their young ones run rampant and with justifiable results in the performances they are giving. Ireland is seen as the old dog that won't die. But even in the inaccuracy of both caricatures, the truth is that all sides go round in circles; from youthful looking sides that have even commentators guessing at right names, to the old dogs who look like they were playing back in B&W. Most sides have a collection of both in truth but perceptions always lands on one side or the other. And all the while, the circle turns and 'experimentation' turns to 'stability' for all sides

The demise of Shane Horgan really surprised me. He always caught my eye when NZ played Ireland. Difficult not to, the guy was a big unit and fast as well.

Yes, it´s a difficult balance to replace your star players and introduce the new generation. We really had no one to replace So'oialo and then Read came along. Jerry Collins left for overseas and though Kaino took longer to mature in his role, faith was placed in him and that faith was repaid. With interest.

Whether you have a mad coach or your side is unlucky with injuries like England at the moment, changes are inevitable. A manager really proves his worth by constantly balancing the need for stability with the need to reward form and a need to look to the future. Rotation came to be used as a dirty word in NZ after 2007. It still was in 2011. It's a tight rope walk every team has to go through though some sides have trouble finding enough depth to make it look acceptable.

To tell the truth I don't know why Shane Horgan became 'unwanted' either. Some you know were closing on their sell-by date but he was playing great for Leinster right up until his injury. He was just one of these elusive players that you don't really know why the opposition couldn't pin him down, but they couldn't. He cropped up where he has no right to be and could use a deceptively explosive pace to push his advantage out on the fringes.

Horgan scored crucial tries at crucial moments. He's probably the best back in the world at retrieving restarts. Every player in the opposition know the ball is going to him but nobody seems to be able stop him leaping up and grabbing it. He has a brilliant offload and brutal handoff and he's very powerful and quite quick, although not lightning quick. He also has a brilliant mentality. Similar to O'Driscoll.

But his international career effectively ended when Kidney took over. Horgan was off form at the time. It took him quite a while to recover from the '07 World Cup disaster I think. He didn't get back to his best till '09. And Bowe was on fire. Since then Bowe has become one of Kidney's undroppable's and Horgan hasn't gotten a look in. At times he's been playing so well it seemed inevitable he'd get back into the Irish team. But he's had some untimely injuries.

Are Wales better than Ireland?

Well it is a complex answer.

It is like wanting to know how long a piece of string is.

Well it depends what you will be using it for.

Long string/rope used for mountaineering - Wales have the superior record.

Medium string/rope - Last decade Ireland has the upper hand.

Short string/rope - to tie your shoes - Last match Wales were superior.

Well Bowe is no slouch himself but it always surprised me how one of Ireland´s consistently most dangerous backs (he was a kickoff and high ball weapon) was so easily thrown on the scrapheap. It´s a good resumé by you Feckless but it in no way justifies the decision. He was one of my favourite players for Ireland and generally for favourite read danger man to watch out for.

Bowe and Horgan are both fabulous players, Trimble too. Ireland have been blessed with some serious quality in the 14 jersey in recent times.

Bowe has replaced BOD as the main game breaker in the past 3 seasons though. He has an uncanny knack of scoring or creating vital tries in the big games.

I don't think he was ever definitively thrown on the scraphead. It's just the way it happened. Bowe's form plus bad timing with injuries ensured he was left out in the cold for a long time. Now at his age, it wouldn't make much sense to bring him back in when younger players are coming through. Since the end of his international duties he's been brilliant for Leinster though, and picked up a Magners league title and two Heineken Cups. It was brilliant to see his strong desire and will to win rewarded for Leinster after years of brilliant play going unrewarded, trophy wise.

He's always been one of my favourite players. He went to my school in Drogheda. After being capped there was a huge framed photo of him running with the ball for Ireland hung up in the school assembly area. Don't know if it's still there but I presume so. It's not a prominent rugby school at all so they're very proud of him there. At the time I was just starting to watch rugby and I remember being amazed that someone from my school actually played for Ireland. I've always followed his career closely and he's given so many wonderful moments to Leinster and Ireland fans.

Well perhaps dramatic Feckless but he didn´t get to enjoy an easing into retirement that say ROG has got with the green jersey. That may well be because of injury or Bowe's brilliance but sometimes unfortunately good players don't get the send off they deserve. I don't remember a benefit match for poor ol' Shane.

I don't like Ireland.

I always wondered if there was any history between Kidney and Horgan from Kidneys time at Leinster?

Horgan was playing the best rugby of his career before his injury last season. A massively underrated player in my opinion, slow for a winger but an amazing footballer.

Just for sh*ts and giggles, which team do you like the least viewtothegym:

a) Ireland

b) England

c) South Africa

d) New Zealand

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roddersm wrote:I was thinking that Alyn but then I rembered that Wales last game was a defeat to Australia in which case its not so clear cut. If Wales can reproduce their RWC form then they are a better side and by a distance. If Wales win again then there will be no doubt that they are better and the pressure is on Ireland to raise the bar to compete.

That December game was shambolicly arranged and just a money maker, it also has loads of non world cup players within the squad and was more about giving players who missed out on world cup selection a chance. As well as being focused on Shane Williams bye bye party.

I think I'm just stating the facts, Wales are better because they have won the last 2 competitive games between the countries, I do however think Ireland will get a good win in the 6 Nations, because Wales don't travel well, and Ireland will be determined not to lose to us 3 times. I also think, neither team is scared of losing to the other, which should mean a ferocious game.

Ireland are better at cutting peat

AlynDavies wrote:

I think I'm just stating the facts, Wales are better because they have won the last 2 competitive games between the countries, I do however think Ireland will get a good win in the 6 Nations, because Wales don't travel well, and Ireland will be determined not to lose to us 3 times. I also think, neither team is scared of losing to the other, which should mean a ferocious game.

If the determination was lacking in the quarters of the world cup then it will be much harder to find now.

Ireland are higher in the rankings, have finished higher in the table in the last three 6 Nations Championships and have far more wins over Tri-nations teams in recent times. But Wales have won two meetings in a row and won the World Cup quarter final comfortably. That's why I'm confused. Are they actually better than us now? Or was the last result simply the outcome of the tactics employed by the two coaches on the day.

If we can't stop them from doing the same job on us in the next game then I fear they may have the upper hand over us for a few years to come. But I hope it was just a poor game plan from the Irish and a good one from the Welsh which brought about the last defeat.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

If we can't stop them from doing the same job on us in the next game then I fear they may have the upper hand over us for a few years to come. But I hope it was just a poor game plan from the Irish and a good one from the Welsh which brought about the last defeat.

Long way it continue FR

Honestly don't there is much between these teams at the moment, if Roberts is fit and without BOD playing I would say it swings our way. If he's out and we go in with a new centre combo then swings back to neutral ground.

Back row is where it will be one.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Just for sh*ts and giggles, which team do you like the least viewtothegym:

a) Ireland

b) England

c) South Africa

d) New Zealand

(Posts cost 99p per minute.)

i Dislike Ireland the most,England followed by a millisecond. South Africa are okay and i love the AllBlacks! i wish Wales were the All Blacks.

Well,

Its going to be a close game

If Roberts is fit then Wales will be better placed to exploit a weakened Irish midfield

If Preistland plays like he did in Franklins Gardens then Wales will dominate the aerial battle that typifies the first games of the 6N, if Sexton gets a shot at the 10 shirt and can reproduce his Leinster form then it may be a different story.

Adam Jones has been off form in the scrum all season, but if he can up his game for an international (Poland will help) then Wales may well edge the scrum.

Bradley Davies, Ian Evans and Ryan Jones need to keep up their recent form for Wales for Wales to compete in the second row.

The back 3 I see as pretty equal, assuming Byrne starts for Wales and continues with his Clermont form.

Wales should edge the backrow, I think Wales backrow is more balanced. SOB and Heaslip havent been as prominent this year as previously and they will have to adjust their gameplan if they want to come out on top this time.

And as ever, one of the key factors will be how the SHs perform. Murray is inexperienced and if Phillips reproduces his WC form then Ireland are in trouble...but, if he has been shaken in an under-performing Bayonne team, then who knows...



So, to sum up

To close to call.

biltongbek wrote:Are Wales better than Ireland?

Well it is a complex answer.

It is like wanting to know how long a piece of string is.

Well it depends what you will be using it for.

Long string/rope used for mountaineering - Wales have the superior record.

Medium string/rope - Last decade Ireland has the upper hand.

Short string/rope - to tie your shoes - Last match Wales were superior.

I was getting tied up in your analogies for a while there...!

It looks like Roberts wont be fit for this game. I have heard a rumour his knee is not responding well to treatment.

maestegmafia wrote:It looks like Roberts wont be fit for this game. I have heard a rumour his knee is not responding well to treatment.

Hmm do Wales have an experienced interntaional 12 to step into his place?



Say it aint so!

Wales have loads of options at 12. Beck or J Davies are probably favourites. JD has played plenty of good rugby at 12 this season and last for the Scarlets. Invariably picked at outside center for Wales to accommodate Roberts at 12.

Beck is a young Ospreys player that really caught everyones eye in his three or four Ospreys games last year as well as a fantastic season with Aberavon. This year he has made himself first choice at the Ospreys.

I think this might well give Beck an opportunity to show what he can do on the International stage as well.

As back up/alternatives we also have Scott Williams, James Hook and Gavin Henson as options for 12 in the training squad. Hook and Henson have both been there and dont it before, Henson has two GS's under his belt as the form 12 in the NH at the time. Had a few too many injury worries the last year to really get good form back though.

Certainly not a position anyone in Wales will be too worried about.

maestegmafia wrote:It looks like Roberts wont be fit for this game. I have heard a rumour his knee is not responding well to treatment.

I wouldn't wish a player to be injured but that is a massive boost for Ireland in my opinion. He's the Welsh player I fear the most and regardless of who Wales replace him with they won't have anywhere near the potency in midfield, unless Henson can refind his best form. Dr Roberts is, along with Nonu and SBW, the best 12 in world rugby right now.

roddersm
Yes the Doc is a very good 12 but Jonathan Davies will probably get to play in his natural position of inside centre. His passing is much better when he has the 12 shirt and in my opinion he makes cleaner breaks than Jamie Roberts.

Cymroglan wrote:roddersm
Yes the Doc is a very good 12 but Jonathan Davies will probably get to play in his natural position of inside centre. His passing is much better when he has the 12 shirt and in my opinion he makes cleaner breaks than Jamie Roberts.

More pace similar size though maybe not quite as strong certainly an admirable back up. Though I would probably rather see a bit of guile at inside centre personally.

I would like to see how Beck goes there. Unless by the miracles of Polish boot camp and the magic of the Vale the coaches can reform Henson to his very best form.

I certainly have no problem with Davies there though.

Davies is a quality player, don't get me wrong and its still anyones game but I am glad that we are not facing Roberts.....of course I wish him a speedy recovery for the next game

By the overall record,YES,Wales are the third most successful side after France[55.5%],England [55%] and Wales 51%.
BUT the great thing about a 6Ns,or for that matter ANY match,two teams on the park.
On any given day EITHER side can win,IF they beleave in themselves and play to there limits.
To often you get were playing team X,we`ve never beaten them how can we now.
Then go into damage limitation mode,often beaten before they go on the park.

Roberts............... hmmm, for me personally............ I think Irish players would have prefered a second crack at him. They'll have planned for him. There was just no plan B at the WC because the Irish just didn't take the Welsh threat seriously enough - and were punch drunk when plan B needed to go into operation.

Look, it's just a damn up-in-the-air game that nobody can seriously call. But then, that's the Six Nations.

I don't think D'arcy or Earls can handle Roberts Fly, regardless of what plan we have....a fully fit BOD yes but not the available players we've selected...ironically Paddy Wallace is the best head on tackler of the centres we've chosen (yes I am being serious), the other 3 are strong from the side but not head on meaning we would lose serious ground through the midfield.

If DOC can't handle Roberts then Earles can't , he nearly concussed himself last time he tried to tackle him

Thats because he tried to tackle him with the side of his head....DOC is out of his depth at this level now I'm afraid.

emack2 wrote:By the overall record,YES,Wales are the third most successful side after France[55.5%],England [55%] and Wales 51%.

In what context 'overall'? Overall in Europe since rugby began in the 1800s? Since Professionalism started in 1995? Or since the inception of the Six Nations itself in 2000.

Heh heh , Roberts jaw would concuss a concrete rhino. Though Earles couldn't tackle our little player either