Tiger's not happy...

First topic message reminder :

...about Hank Haney's new book, just wait til he sees what Stevie Williams has in store.

Unusual to see Tiger voicing strong opinions in the media, maybe he's opening up more... or maybe the book is worth reading!

What do you think, is this poor form on Haney's part?

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/01/20/tiger-woods-will-not-be-reading-ex-swing-coach-hank-haneys-tell-all-book-2/

McLaren wrote:Super you are in deep sh[/b][b]it then.

whats that all about then?

Diggers, I'm talking about worthy action. Sportsmen do what they enjoy doing. Is it that admirable? Whereas many ww2 actions were selfless acts which changed the course of the war. Regardless of the politics behind them, such actions undoubtedly have more worth than Phil Taylor hitting a double 16.

Sportsmen are lauded far too much and the word hero is used far too easily. Similarly though I think the help for heroes thing and military appreciation goes a bit too far these days, especially as there is no conscription, but I think its wrong to belittle what conscripted soldiers did during ww2 in some amazing raids and missions is astonishing, certainly more than any sporting achievement. Would that many of us had the nerve to do what they did? I bet a lot more would have the nerve to hole an eight foot putt for the open.

sorry SR no one calls sportsmen heros.

I'd much rather read and enjoy the history of sporting endeavour rather than actions that , however worthy , involved people dying. Some people love they stuff though, the same sort of people who think John Wayne was a great actor.

John Wayne was an awful actor, but I enjoy reading about Soldiers that have performed acts of Valor to prevent others dying. Your right in that the reasons they were/are there are wrong but better those people who choose to be there these days than say you or I, or even our children being the conscripts that have to do it because nobody chooses to!

There were many noteworthy acts of bravery in WW2 that yes cost lives but saved many more from loss!

I think the word hero does get used in sporting terms these days, we often hear people speaking of sporting heroes or how someone should be admired for their play in a particular sport. You only need watch sky coverage of golf, football, rugby, boxing anything in fact and you hear those terms all to often.

I can happily say I can see what Tiger has done through his career is exceptional , I'd never say I admire him for it though. My admiration is saved for those that do something which saves a life, or creates better way of life for future generations and those that give up time for no reason than to simply help someone for no rewason other than they are simply good people or for those that have come through adversity and now use the experience to prevent others going through something they have suffered.

"You only need watch sky coverage of golf, football, rugby, boxing anything in fact and you hear those terms all to often."

well i watch it more than most lol- and thats saying something, dont ever hear it used. secondly and probally more importantly- its just a word - doesnt really matter.

If you cant admire someone for acheiveing the way tiger has then we are on totally different wavelegths, thats up to you mind. I respect anyone who achieve and reaches the pinnacle of there ability. There is alot to admire in regards to that quality.

Also surely you dont have to save up admiration- or do you have a limited supply?

mystiroakey - you are absolutely right in that "hero" is just a word and in the English language it is not just confined to acts of courage. It can and does apply equally to anyone held in high esteem regardless of the reason.
Responsibility falls on the reader to figure out the most appropriate intended meaning based on the context.
The same people who are known to berate others for taking things too seriously, are (again) guilty of the same thing. It is just another word with more than one meaning/use.

Mysti: I don't have limited admiration, I just merely don't see admiration as something I'd personally apply to a sports person for hitting a little white ball, or kicking a ball around a field etc.

If I had to say there was a sportsman I admire it'd be Eric Compton and not for his ability to play golf but for the fact he has survived 2 heart transplants.

As for misinterpreting the word hero or merely applying it in one way, well that's how I see it and it doesn't make me wrong because merely as most words of that nature are, its merely open to ones interpretation and to me a hero isn't someone with sporting prowess.

As for Sky, Mark Roe and Rob Lee are 2 individuals who often ues the term admire and hero, usually when speaking of Tiger or Rory but has been as recent as used for Rock when beating Tiger down the stretch, it was even banded about in the Honda for Tigers "heroic shot at the 18th"

The word 'hero' is used in a sporting parlance all the time, you only have to watch a cup final, penalty shootout last minute drop goal etc. It's not used in golf so much due to it being individual sport, but it certainly gets used in many others. I just don't think that sport, especially ones where there is no risk involved like football or cricket constitutes an act of heroism, they are just doing what they are paid to do. It's like someone taking plaudits for looking after their kids, its what they should do.

Mac has lots of sporting heroes though, usually of the glory hunting variety.

Hero is just a word, it has a broad context. People use thousands of words as broad adjectives without them being an exact match. You might call Woods an idiot, he isn't one but you saying it conveys to us what you feel about him.
Anyway it's a personal preference. Someone who achieves great things in sport can work a while lifetime to that end. A hero in a war can happen in a split second and comes down to a simple choice to act or not. Possibly many of us would follow the 'heroic' action. Its just a set of circumstances someone chooses to react to or not.
Do you collect military artefacts as well Super, I can imagine you polishing Hitlers helmet.

Diggers hard for anyone to argue woods isn't an idiot.

Don't think Hitler wore a helmet, maybe in the first world war.

Don't think Woods is an idiot at all! He's just an extremely talented sportsman who got caught doing what a lot of people do and that's shagging about! Plus he was studying a law degree at stanford before Nike offered him 60m to cut short his education. Far from being an idiot!

Yet he paints by numbers in interviews and makes john terry look articulate, I don't think there is too much going on between his ears. Perhaps not an idiot, although at times he behaves like ones but I don't think he's terribly bright although not many top sports stars are.

Fader

In what way is Eric Compton admirable?

He has survived two heart transplants for a number of reasons;

He or his parents can afford some seriously good medical insurance.

Scientists somewhere developed the drugs and technology needed to perform a heart transplant.

Transplant surgeons took the time to learn what must be a tricky procedure.

Someone put together the logistics of a national/state transplant scheme, coordinating it with great precision.

Some poor bloke came off his motorbike and smashed his head into an oncoming bus.

Where in all this did Eric Compton feature?

He made the choice of surgery or death, pretty much a no brainer.


Super (and all the others getting hard on’s over the military)

The military may create more situations where people have to act under adversity but does that make those actions any more admirable? Not really in my opinion as they have chosen to be there and been given the training to deal with it.

I would much rather admire someone like Brian Cox who seems to have made it his mission to highlight the greatness of the physical world and humankind. He shares his vast and interesting knowledge with us all.

Or Barack Obama, I am really not sure this guy is given the respect he deserves and hopefully the Americans won’t get what they deserve this November. That being an even more radical obama for the next four years.

This will come as no surprise to anyone, but if ww3 breaks out I will be joining the ranks of the conscientious objectors. I reckon being Chinese would be ok.

Super- he has to give boring interviews or the media would jump all over him. Love to see the interviews you would give in his position.

Mac, I don't get a hard on about the military. My interest lies in ww2 which comprised of a high percentage of conscripted soldiers who had no choice of whether they were there or not. It was a fascinating passage of history. I don't really have much interest in the rest.

If you don't think the bravery of men, sent on an almost impossible mission outnumbered 20/1 to destroy dock gates which ensure the impotence of the Turpitz and therefore the superiority of the seas for the Royal Navy is more admirable than a clown like Beckham scoring a penalty then I think you take sport too seriously.

I bet you'd go weak at the knees if you met your sporting wet dream.

Alan Turing contributed hugely to the war effort in terms of cryptography. Is that only as admirable as sport.

Mac are you serious!

Eric Compton survives 2 heart transplants and all you can attribute it to is his medical cover! I'm sorry but if that's how you see it then your being an irritant for the sake of it on this one! So you can admire and fawn over a golfer for their ability to get a ball in a hole but not a man that has had 2 life threatening surgical procedures and lives each day knowing he has to take in excess of 20 pills to prevent that heart from being rejected by his own body and still plays golf to a level only you or I could dream of!

As for Obama not hard to do a better job than george bush now was it!

So what are you saying fader, that science and a bit of economics do not explain Compton’s story? Are you suggesting something spiritual or likewise is at play? Or maybe even destiny?

Is it brave to take the 20 pills or just the smart choice? After all the alternate is death.


It may sadden you but what I set out about his situation is exactly how I see the world and see no place for whatever other element you seem to think exists.


Super

I am not disagreeing with much of what you say about WW2, tales like those of the dambusters or Turin at Bletchley Park are truly remarkable.

It is the modern daily mail and sun obsession with the exploits of “our boys” that really gets to me. I do not think the current bunch of drop outs (failed burger flippers if you are being very harsh) that constitute our army know the meaning of winning smart.

To set the record strait I do not idolize ant sportsperson (ok maybe kimi) but enjoy the atmosphere and feeling of watching the unbelievable that top sporting performances bring.

As usual Mac your missing the point other than the one you want to make!

I'm not saying those components didn't aid Compton but regardless of what the surgeons or medical science imo what he has been through and given the strength of character he shows is what's admirable.

If you can only look upon the world as black and white in sense of how things are by fact then I think your missing out on a lot of the finer and more important things in life. Just because something can be drilled down and analysed doesn't mean it is always what's important in the bigger scheme of things.

So what am I missing the Fader?

What is the ever so enriching thought that has passed me by through analysing Compton’s situation in a more rational manner?

Fader, surely the guy who performed the heart transplants is the hero here. They set out at an early age to save life's, that's admirable.
As Mac says , Compton choices were forced on him and are surely what pretty much everyone would have done in a similar situation are they not ? It's just circumstance, not any great altruistic goal.

Fair enough Mac, I am also fed up with the idolisation of the military, I'm more interested in the daring escapes, espionage, cryptography and covert raids which were truly remarkable than professional lantern jawed soldiers headbutting their way through doors to put a bullet in Jerry for fun.

However sports stars, who on the whole are often an arrogant and unpleasant bunch (read Woods, Terry, Gerrard, Chris Ashton etc) are idolised far too much for what is inately a fairly worthless skill.

I'm certainly in awe of no sportsmen for that reason. I'm more impressed thst people like Vettel remain thoroughly decent guys and down to earth even though they are constantly worshipped by saddos.

Ok i know we've strayed off topic but...in the context of heroes or people who have achieved something admirable, where would you all place Lance Armstrong??

Jas, I'd place him in a corner with a big question mark over his head.

A lot of people when asked who their heroes are choose their parents or maybe grandparents. Yet these will just be (to the rest of the world) unremarkable people. But nobody would criticise anyone for saying something like that.
Which just goes to so show the breadth of the word.

I never said the surgeons weren't the heroes!

I merely said if I had to choose a golfer I admire I'd choose Compton for what he's been through.

Mac if you don't know you've clearly not found it yet, but it will come in time.

Lance Armstrong again, is a great sportsman for what he's achieved but the way he he raised awareness of Cancer is a good thing. But cyclings not my thing.

Fair enough Diggers, still think its a bit sad to call kicking a pigs bladder a heroic thing.

I really hate misuse of the word 'unique' too. As in that's 'quite unique'
It is or it isn't unique, there are no degrees of uniqueness.

chums,

what do ye think of Manuel del los Santos, the one legged golfer who plays to a 3 handicap? I think he is hugely inspirational and probably desreves to be called a hero...

how is he a hero, he plays golf because he enjoys it. you might find it an inspiration but its not an heroic act.

Super

Have you seen them movie “the help”?

If so would those type of characters fit your idea of people who have performed heroic actions?

No MAC, sounds like one of your drivel programmes like glee, I.e for teenage girls and poofters.

The Help:

Just been in the blockbusters opposite my office to pick up a film and saw that looked at it, and put it back looks awful and can't be doing with those sort of plot lines boring as hell.

Ok,

So standing up to racial discrimination is now for poofters?

Wow, talk about a numb skull comment. And one which comes from a guy that claims tiger is the idiot?

Fader,

Give it a try, it is a really good movie. It is depressing as hell but really moving and very interesting.

MAC, it was merely a sly dig at your fondness for infantile and gay programming like Glee. I have no idea what 'the help' is about as I've never even heard of it, however now you have elaborated I have to say that that period in American history does not interest me in the slightest, therefore its safe to say I won't ever watch it. There's been a million like that.

So you are not interested in;

the civil rights movement
the Space race (wider impacts on science and discovery)
the cold war
viatnam
JFK (and his killing)

I no doubt much more.

Diggers wrote:Jas, I'd place him in a corner with a big question mark over his head.

It is unfortunate that pro cycling is having a particularly difficult time being scandalised by drug abuse and Armstrong happened to achieve all that he did in the midst of such a period. There will therefore always be a cloud of suspicion over his head rightly or wrongly. Perhaps even more so bearing in mind the drug used by cheats is the very drug used by cancer patients recovering from the effects of brutal chemotherapy.
In his defence he never tested positive whilst he was training/competing.

Whilst 7 TdFs is an incredible achievement, the battle he had in overcoming testicular cancer makes winning 7 TdFs seem like chicken feed.

Whether you're a cyclist or not (and I'm not) I'd recommend "It's not about the bike" as a thoroughly inspirational read. There's no question marks over his head for me

Mac the fact it sounded depressing is why I put it back on the shelf! I work for a newspaper I see enough depressing stuff all day everyday. Besides there are so many films of that type I find no reason to watch another. The best of that genre is the colour purple a somewhat old film now though.

Back to Tiger he feels he's ready in time for Bay Hill so I hear.

But plenty of people overcome testicular cancer, a friend of mine did at 23. It's far from uncommon, is everyone of them an inspiration ?
Without the TDF wins Armstrong is just another guy that beat a form of cancer.
I hang out with a guy who was an elite cyclist, there isn't much doubt according to his inside knowledge that Armstrong was a doper. Then again he wasn't alone on that score. Do you judge him on the fact that he was doing the same as everyone and still outstanding or do you see him as a cheat and more importantly someone who risked his health with steroids? That's a shocking example in many ways after he had so much help and worked so hard to get his health back.
So for me Im afraid for the final reason it's a massive question mark.

McLaren wrote:So you are not interested in;

the civil rights movement
the Space race (wider impacts on science and discovery)
the cold war
viatnam
JFK (and his killing)

I no doubt much more.

Not really MAC, no. And I don't like the implication that I ought to be either. American history in general does not really interest me I'm afraid.

In the absence of a European tour thread I will post this here.

From bbc sports website;

“Miguel Angel Jimenez says he will keep contributing money from his own pocket to assure the continuation of the Andalucian Open. The Spaniard has reportedly given 500,000 euros (£415,000) over the past three years to keep the tournament going.”


How would we class this act; that of stupidity for keeping a dead horse going or a great show of kindness that will hopefully boost the local economy?

Mac - It's sometimes fashionable to criticize how anyone gives back -- note many of the negative comments about the Tiger Woods Foundation or the PGA charities.

So, here's how I view what Jimenez is doing: good for him! I really applaud any act of charity, regardless of the motive, outcome or how it will feed any publicity machine.

Jimenez isnt exactly a brand is he- i am sure he is doing it for his local community and fair play to him, doesnt sergio do the same for his one as well. wish some english did it for ours!!!

The problem for replicating this in the UK I suspect is that the foreign players (esp the stars with significant endorsement income) will say "We're not coming to play on your island because we don't want to be whacked by the tax cost, unless we're playing in The Open."

Maybe a non-UK domiciled oligarch can make this good out of their own tax savings??? Suspect such generosity would be too much of a stretch (golf tournaments are not really charities after all)...

sky the tax cost in spain is higher these days!high rate is 54%

secondly none of the big boys play in the two mentioned events- there would be no worse fields for english opens etc that have been scrapped- the reason they have lost out it because there are no benefactors and sponsership on the euro tour events is at an all time low!

Diggers wrote:But plenty of people overcome testicular cancer, a friend of mine did at 23. It's far from uncommon, is everyone of them an inspiration ?
Without the TDF wins Armstrong is just another guy that beat a form of cancer.
I hang out with a guy who was an elite cyclist, there isn't much doubt according to his inside knowledge that Armstrong was a doper. Then again he wasn't alone on that score. Do you judge him on the fact that he was doing the same as everyone and still outstanding or do you see him as a cheat and more importantly someone who risked his health with steroids? That's a shocking example in many ways after he had so much help and worked so hard to get his health back.
So for me Im afraid for the final reason it's a massive question mark.

Thankfully yes they do and fair play to them, you have to applaud anyone who has to fight it whether they win or lose. Luckily many also get caught early enough, Armstrong wasn't, not long after being diagnosed it had spread throughout his body, even to his brain, his chances were rated at much less than 10%. What impressed me about him was his sheer will to beat it and after beating it to actually compete again, not just compete but to dominate what is regarded by many as the worlds toughest race (I'd like to see "would be Navy Seals" try it if they think they're hard enough). Not that I'd ever condone it but even with doped assistance (if true) it would still be a helluva achievement (considering a large proportion of his main rivals DID actually subsequently get caught).

There is no doubt that drug use in cycling is/was widespread and to be honest probably has been for decades, it's just that testing has now got better, to I'd reiterate the point....If he was so clearly doping, why was he never caught? Also I thought all the allegations centred on the use of EPO rather than steroids.

In summary I don't judge him at all, I haven't been where he's been and I hope I never am but..If I ever find myself in such an awful place I'd keep re-reading his book and hope to fight with the same spirit he did and that to me is inspiration.

The thing is people say you beat cancer but do you really? As far as I can see it either kills you or you get lucky and the chemo and drugs work or the cancer becomes less aggressive.
Enduring the process is no doubt horrific but basically Armstrong got lucky and I'm happy he did. I personally don't buy into people affectively willing it away.

"I personally don't buy into people affectively willing it away."

Does anyone?

Speaking of sportsmens misery, hopefully we will see chav Terry bawling his eyes out in about twenty minutes.

Yeah sr. brilliant game and brilliant win.