Mark McCafferty is a disgrace

First topic message reminder :

Interview link below.

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/157976.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty has suggested that a flawed qualification system is largely to blame for English rugby's failure to make a significant impression on this season's Heineken Cup.

England's leading clubs have struggled to keep pace with their European rivals in recent seasons with only one side - Premiership champions Saracens - likely to make the quarter-finals this term. The Premiership provided just one quarter-finalist two seasons ago in the shape of Northampton and the Saints, beaten finalists last year, were one of only two teams alongside Leicester to make the knock-out stages in that competition.

McCafferty believes that the Premiership's leading sides and their French Top 14 counterparts are treated unfairly by qualifying arrangements that he claims favour those teams competing in the RaboDirect PRO12. The Celtic-Italian league provides 10 teams for the Heineken Cup with the three highest placed sides from Ireland and Wales and the two sides from Scotland and Italy guaranteed qualification. Additional places are available depending on the destiny of the previous season's Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup.

McCafferty argues that the battle to claim one of the six automatic spots open to the 12-team Premiership and the Top 14 is a much tougher task - a point that he is set to put to tournament organisers European Rugby Cup Ltd.

"At the moment pretty much everyone in the PRO12 knows they've qualified for next year's Heineken, whereas French and English sides are still fighting tooth and nail and will be doing so in the middle of the Heineken Cup next season to ensure qualification for the season after," he told the Sunday Telegraph. "Make it more meritocratic and everyone will have to take their leagues seriously."

McCafferty went on to explain how he believes the process should work. "Our view is that Heineken Cup qualification should be based on league form," he said. "There are three of those - the Aviva Premiership, the Top 14 Orange in France and the Pro 12 - and you should take the qualifying teams from the best sides in those leagues. Then it's a completely meritocratic system."

This season the 24 teams in the six Heineken Cup pools are made up of 11 from the PRO12, six from the Top 14 and seven from the Premiership. McCafferty believes it should be eight across the board.

"We've put that proposal on the table but we know there will be a huge amount of resistance to it because it means countries in the PRO12, a league which currently has 10 places allocated to it, might go down to eight. There will be concerns that it could lead to one or two countries not being represented in the Heineken Cup. But the price you pay for that inclusivity is not necessarily having the best against the best."

McCafferty also highlighted what he sees as the Irish sides' ability to prioritise the Heineken Cup over domestic matters. "The real change over the past four or five years," McCafferty added, "is that the Irish sides have become more successful in Europe because of the priority they have put on it.

"After round four of this season's tournament I looked at the starting line-ups of Ulster, Leinster and Munster [all through to the quarter-finals] and only four of the 45 starters in the Heineken Cup were retained for their PRO12 league games the next weekend. Take a model where the top eight clubs qualify from each league and they wouldn't be able to take as many risks. That's the issue our clubs have.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So let me get this straight, you want to handicap the amount of teams in the Rabbo and give 2 additional spaces to English sides to make it fairier? How is it fair that England get to enter 6 teams already? Just because other Unions have streamlined their playing pools into a smaller number of teams to increase their standard and squad strenght.

The biggest issue I have with the guy is that he has completely failed to identify the problem and yet again is looking at it from a English Club increased Revenue standpoint. In truth there are 2 bigger factors at play.

1. Relegation - Its forcing English sides to play cup rugby. Get rid of that and your teams migth stand a better chance.

2. Quality - In truth the quality of squads is no longer available to English sides. French Clubs assemble the squads for the most money so have all the biggest names and the Home Unions to a large degree are keeping their stars at home. As they dont have to split resources by as many clubs as the English do it will make them naturally stronger (with the exception of Scotland). The handicap works against teams too as you have 12 teams bidding for the same player pools. Its understandable why so many buy no name SH imports.

To think this guy is partly responsible in helping English clubs worries me. He clearly has missed the point altogether.

I hope the HC Board laugh him out of the meeting or at the very least counter the argument with "Sure - as long as you will accept 3 places instead of 6".

This bloke is an idiot and his idea of improving English Rugby is to pull other (working systems) down, instead of improving his own.

The Unions decided the split...but split it had to be or either why have an agreement between the six unions that also run the Six Nations? The Unions decided the 6,6,3,3,2,2 and the other extra qualifiers. They decided...clubs/provinces/regions didn't. McCafferty acts like clubs/regions/provinces own the competition. You'll say McCafferty and RFU are equal partners - don't think the unions that did the initial deal would see it that way. They'll say - thanks for you interest and opinions [what's the guy's first name] but we'll talk with the RFU now.

Sorry, I was responding to your comment about not wanting the English to be thrown out. Certainly Heineken can't do it. I don't think McCatherty thinks he can just instruct the PRO12 what to do, as they can (and probably will) say no. The question is could the resentment that is there now build to a point where the English clubs want out (with or without the RFU's blessing). Which takes us back to next year's competition.

Probably worth mentioning that the AP clubs have divergent interests. There are all sorts of models you could consider if the English walked from the HC, but not all of them would see the AP continuing with 12 clubs. The poorer teams are holding onto the coat-tails of the others, where-as clubs like Bath, Leicester and Saints probably think there is a world of opportunity out there if the current arrangements in English and European rugby didn't 'hold them back'.

I wasn't talking about the places. I was talking about the stakes in the company or organisation or whatever.

The RFU gave up half of their share in the ERC to the clubs. In 2007 I think

It beggars belief to me that anyone would want to change something that is so successful and improves each year. I remember in the early years the Scottish teams got hammered regularly (Leicester put 90 on Glasgow if I remember correctly). Yet over the years Edinburgh and Glasgow have gradually improved culminating this year in a first and a second place in the Groups. There are clear signs that Italy could go the same way based mainly on Treviso's performances (but Aironi have also taken a few scalps in the league this year).
I believe these improvements are due to both the Celtic League (in its many guises) and the HEC.
In the long term this is good for everybody (including the English) as the last thing rugby needs is to 'lose' Scotland from the top table in terms of competitiveness and cut off Italy just after they've drawn up their chair at said table. If interest in rugby continues to grow in Italy (a country of nearly 60 million people) the commercial implications are clear for all of European rugby (inc the English). I don't know when the next TV deal is negotiated for the HEC but the price will surely be significantly higher.
English rugby should be able to sort out its own (hopefully short term) problems without this sort of panicked petty reaction coming from McCafferty.

Malky.

Just to give the example of LI, £1m loss today (which actually represents a significant improvement), and their HC campaign has been heavily impacted by injuries (Bowden didn't feature, JJ didn't feature other than a few minutes in the final game, Yarde didn't feature, I think something something happened to Ansbro, the backrow was reduced to playing an 18 year old number 8 at 7 alongside another 20 year old at 8 whilst a lock played 6). Now I expect the sides they played had their own injury worries, but LI walked into and back into the competition battered and bruised, could never play the FH, midfield, winger or backrow they wanted to and are now of course out.

They played two PRO12 sides who are certain to be in the competition next season and yet LI have to keep going and probably find a way to finish top 6 in the AP, something on their mind throughout the HC stages (and something they could easily fail to achieve). Now I just don't buy the argument that knowing you are certain to play HC rugby next year has no impact on your week to week selections and intensity at certain times of the season and that there is no advantage there when it comes to HC game focus.

So I think I could understand why the LI board might think there is potential to improve the current situation. And I think that's why McCatherty has spoken out.

HammerofThunor wrote:Any idea how the shares are split? Is it even per 'union'? OR related to number of spots?

2 votes per union.

so your basicaly saying the pro12 should rip up our qualifiying criterea and whole ethos of our league because ap teams have had a barren spell over the last few years?we set up our league in a way we felt was best for the celtic nations,you set up your's in your best interests,the pro12 was ringfenced allowing us more scope to play expansive rugby and give promising youngsters plenty of game time,in the early years of the hc england and france dominated (no complaining then) we had to suck it up and work hard to improve,now we have a situation where 5 out of 8 pro12 teams qualified to 1 out of 6 ap teams,shock horror they must have an advantage somehow,the advantage is the pro12 teams are better. instead of looking at other leagues look closer to home,scrap relegation,trim the amount of teams,raise your salary cap,give youngsters plenty of game time,do something to improve your league?you have the playing base to catch up,work to improve your league,and leave other leagues alone,suck it up and stop moaning.

as an aside,not all welsh teams qualify for the hc,the dragons missed out this year.

They just dont get it do they?

Ireland: Population 5 million. Rugby is sexy there now. 3 x provinces looking for a HC Final. But, that's like X-Factor. It is temporary and will dwindle fast, if progression is not maintained, promoted and minded.

Scotland: Poplulation 6 million and near Independence. Great rugby tradition, near lost. Shoite rugby-following crowd tho - in fairness. Look at the figures. Change it. Dont talk about it now. Edinburgh have shown the way. Turn up in massive numbers FFS. Make a statement. And Happy Burns night.

Wales: Fans are full of it online, yet they dont turn up for their regions. Change it and stop moaning on here.

England & France, with populations of 60 million plus - suck my todger.

Ye are both 2nd & 3rd best, at club-level, to a small country who mainly plays GAA football & hurling.

Work it out. Stop trying to change the rules because your teams are failing at the highest level.

Italy. Oh Italy. Ye are the Future. A 60 mill population gagging for it. The ERC know this. Their top players will come home, stay at home and help it grow. See Treviso. Aironi will grow too in the PRO12.
This, could put the boring drudge of the Jeff and the TOP14 in its proper place. The worm will turn.

They, are the answer to the future success of the PRO12.

France & England. Come join us. Learn to play fluid club-rugby, open your closed minds and everything will be grand.

te answer to to many games is scarp the LV cup suerely.

a European cup with only english french and Irish teams with the odd welsh one would be devalued.

The LV Van Trophy, for disinterested pensioners - Southern section, twice removed - is the biggest joke of all.

Why? I mean why?

I know why. Its a sop for Welsh teams, who cant make it in the HC, to have a go at the English. In a meaningless competition. One, the English are not remotely bothered about, and one - the Welsh love beating them in. And still - they lose.

Get over it and move on up FFS.

Let it go and evolve.

For Irish & British youngsters - The B&I Cup is the one to cherish. It has more real meaning.

I think the B&I cup benefits the Irish teams much more than anyone else. We get to send out our A teams (who wouldn’t be playing otherwise) against some gnarled old hands at the likes of Bedford, Llanelli, Ponty, Pirates etc. it’s great experience for them, particularly the forwards.

Gibbo – did you see the result from Sunday Leinster A 33 – 0 Pontypridd, we’re in the semi finals now, could meet Munster A, that’d be good a laugh.

Gibson wrote:The LV Van Trophy, for disinterested pensioners - Southern section, twice removed - is the biggest joke of all.

Why? I mean why?

I know why. Its a sop for Welsh teams, who cant make it in the HC, to have a go at the English. In a meaningless competition. One, the English are not remotely bothered about, and one - the Welsh love beating them in. And still - they lose.

Get over it and move on up FFS.

Let it go and evolve.

For Irish & British youngsters - The B&I Cup is the one to cherish. It has more real meaning.

Why? Because the Irish are involved and that gives more meaning to everything? The LV cup is used to integrate academy players with the 1st team. Most of the young players now 1st choice at their club got their chance because of performances in the LV cup. And it's played in the international window. I think it's great and should stay. The British and Irish cup is for the 2nd tier of English rugby and has nothing to do with the Premiership sides.

I think some people don't really understand what's going on. The European competition is up for renewal at the end of the season. This is premptive stuff before the negotiations. I doubt very much he thinks that its actually going to happen (even though he's English, we're not all stupid and arrogant). Oh and for the record the PRL want to scrap relagtion (why wouldn't they? They represent the teams currently in the premiership). The RFU won't let them.

Thunor, I think someone mentioned on this thread about first team players for premiership clubs that have played in some or all of the LV cup games. If clubs are finding it hard to compete on 2 fronts (league and HC) then they shouldn’t play their first line players in the reserves cup. The LV cup CAN serve a purpose, but only if its used correctly. If it gives the reserves at Welsh and English teams the same opportunities that the B&I cup gives Irish reserves then it’s a good thing, but if it’s being used as a third whip to flog already knackered players then it’s not helping anyone.

It's also used to bring back players from injury. And the point about the younger players is that they ARE playing with some of the first line players (generally the ones who've been off injured for some time). It's generally the teams who are doing badly that put in stronger teams. Trying to get themselves out of a negative funk. Most clubs only put in stronger sides in the semi/final.

Does anyone see the irony that in a thread on the outrage at someone involved in English rugby telling Pro12 what to do and then we have an Irishman and a Scot telling the English clubs what to do?

Do Saracens have to make sure they are in the top six this year in the AP to qualify for HC next year?

HammerofThunor wrote:
Does anyone see the irony that in a thread on the outrage at someone involved in English rugby telling Pro12 what to do and then we have an Irishman and a Scot telling the English clubs what to do?

I wouldn't say it's ironic at all. I'd say it's elucidating the main point. If English club CEO is going to start telling us in Pro12 how to conduct our business, well let's see what he and his supporters think of little old Pro12 telling the 'big' boys what to do. And then asking them how does it feel?

Feels sour to the tongue, doesn't it. So now everyone knows how both sides feel.

Unless they win the HEC or LV (not sure how they're going in the LV) then of course they do.

Doesn't feel sour on the tongue at all. Just responding to some of the comments about it that's all. They're free to their opinion about it and the premiership clubs will do exactly what they want (if the PRO12 teams felt strongly about the LV they could try and get the PRL to done thing about during the ERC negotiations. That's up to them.

Ackford in the Telegraph suggests the French clubs share the concerns of the English ones. And whilst the English clubs struggle for money the Irish clubs are facing a potential multi-million pound windfall after three of them progressed. Feels to me like something is going to have to give somewhere.

Well, (and this is only my opinion...not a direct order! ) but why don't the rewards for HC involvement start earlier than the final?

Why couldn't Saracens be rewarded for their QF placement and given a HC place next year? That would place the concept of reward at least in the right competition. So at present a HC place is a reward for League position, but why not have real reward for competitiveness in the HC itself?

That would mean that Saracens can relax a little next year and use rotation a little more freely and concentrate for a while on league. Then five remaining places have to be fought for.

And if three AP sides got into QFs then that would mean that those three could relax a little the following year and there would only be three places to fight for amongst the others.

Use the HC itself as the reward tool and the inducer to in a sense force clubs to pre-plan their year better and have their best players playing at the right times.

???? No?

DaveM wrote:Ackford in the Telegraph suggests the French clubs share the concerns of the English ones. And whilst the English clubs struggle for money the Irish clubs are facing a potential multi-million pound windfall after three of them progressed. Feels to me like something is going to have to give somewhere.

No I'm not going to be here for another full day debating this one. But there you go again Dave. Irish clubs facing a multi-million pound windfall for what?

For being good in a competition?

Why not?

The Pro12 sides aren't in it to be symbolic cannon-fodder for the big English and French sides. That's not their role and they won't accept that role. "Stay in the competition but we're going to have to reduce your power so that we can win again and get the big multi-million pound windfalls. But by all means stay in the competition to make it look like it is pan-Europe and sponsors and TV love that idea. But no more winning!!!"

It's just ludicrous to suggest any CEO of any league is suggesting that....or thinking others will sign on the dotted line to initiate it.

I wonder if the HC discussions at the end if the season result in the pool games being played in a six week block, probably after the November internationals and as a build up to the 6Ns ?
The current 24 team format and the unusual QF process will probably evolve to either a 16 or 32 team competition - but maybe not this time round and I am not going to go over the composition which upsets some folk. Realistically there are only probably half a dozen sides who can actually win the HC and contain a minimum of 6 injury free, current Test players, preferably playing for the same Test side. A 16 team HC competition would make the other European competition far more competitive and be a competition offering a genuine chance fof silverware for more teams.

For my own club Bath, the second tier is more realistic currently, as we don't have any first pick English test players and our last three HC campaigns have been blighted by injuries to key players. Frustrating but life goes on and the focus on making the top six a priority in the league which looks like being even tighter than last season.

I generally don't like the PRL but McCafferty is, I believe, trying to keep a lid on the pressure to scrap the salary cap. There is a big move to 'evolve' the current position and most of the discussions on here become irrelevant, as Test players will get offered life changing money and squad sizes with current test experience will simply get bought per the Toulouse model and centralised top down structures won't be able to compete.

The owner of Bath has intimated he has £50M to spend on a new ground and players - the rights and wrongs become irrelevant and European rugby will be changed again.

DaveM wrote:And whilst the English clubs struggle for money the Irish clubs are facing a potential multi-million pound windfall after three of them progressed.

This comment made me laugh out loud. Not only are the Irish playing better, they're also getting financially rewarded for their success. How dare they win money that the the English want.

DaveM wrote:Feels to me like something is going to have to give somewhere.

Yes, eventually enough people in England will realize that the Irish actually just have better rugby teams at the moment. When that penny drops maybe they'll do something constructive to improve their own game.

The Irish do in general have better rugby sides than England at the moment but I wouldn't say that Ulster are better than the likes of Saints,Quins and Saracens.

The key is the breakdown in my opinion. Also when winning the ball - what is done with it.

More aggression and intensity is needed in my opinion.

I would not disagree with any of that beshocked.

But what you are saying is the 3rd Irish side, although the gap to Munster is closing rapidly, is as good as the stongest English teams.

Thats a worry for England.

SecretFly wrote:
No I'm not going to be here for another full day debating this one. But there you go again Dave. Irish clubs facing a multi-million pound windfall for what?

For being good in a competition?

Why not?

Because the AP sides feel the competition is biased in favour of PRO12 sides.

I'm just saying, if the English and French clubs feel they have a greivence then the PRO12 sides are likely to find they have a problem going forward, because most of that windfall hasn't been raised in Ireland.

For the record, I think the Irish sides are very good, and that Leinster are probably about as good a rugby team as you can find at any level at present, playing attractive and effective rugby. I think if they were under the same sort of contraints in their domestic competition as the English and French sides there wouldn't be an issue.

the competition is biased in favour of PRO12 sides.

No it's not. It's a completely level playing field. All the problems and difficulties the English are whinging about are coming from their own league setup.

You need to justify what that constraint is.

Rotation is banded around but never backed up with hard facts.

What about squad size, most Pro12 teams have to run their clubs on significantly smaller squad. (Leicester have 9 more full professionals than Ulster for example). Isn't that a constraint.

The English are free to restructure their game in the same way the Celtic nations and Italy did to meet the professional era, they choose not to do so. The solution is in your own hands.

Regionalize, stop relegation, drop the LV cup, central contracts, regulate foreign imports - do what ever is necessary to up your game just don't moan and blame the system.

That's true, we could reform the English game to get some of the same advantages the PRO12 sides have, althogh I think that's unlikely as regionalisation doesn't make sense in England, relegation is key to the sporting integrity of leagues in my opinion (I certainly wouldn't be without Exeter, and the thought of Leeds not getting relegated last season is a depressing one) and foreign imports are already regulated.

Having 8 English entrants though would mean that many clubs wouldn't have to worry about qualification for the next season and so could target HC games, as well as making the average PRO12 game have more riding on them than they currently do. This is inferior to a 16 club structure with 5 English clubs due to the dilution of quality, but is perhaps more achievable.

The HC has been a very successful development competition. Indeed its been so successful that it's not surprising some of the starting assumptions are going to be challenged.

I think McCafferty is talking out of his backside, there are only 6 serious rugby nations in Europe, and 4 of them play in one domestic league. Why not kick those 4 countries out and only have an Anglo French Cup then?

It's already silly that in 6 pools England have 7 teams, why have 2 English teams in one pool.

Gibson wrote:The LV Van Trophy, for disinterested pensioners - Southern section, twice removed - is the biggest joke of all.

Why? I mean why?

I know why. Its a sop for Welsh teams, who cant make it in the HC, to have a go at the English. In a meaningless competition. One, the English are not remotely bothered about, and one - the Welsh love beating them in. And still - they lose.

Get over it and move on up FFS.

Let it go and evolve.

For Irish & British youngsters - The B&I Cup is the one to cherish. It has more real meaning.

Erm Gibson, have you been smoking again? It is not to have a go at the English, it is because it generates more money which we desperately need to keep 4 Superclubs going. But now, perhaps it is not needed now that the Italians have entered the Pro12.

Also history shows that the English are bothered about it, I do not speak for them now, but facts are facts. In its first format (EDF), it was good. The top 2 teams in England were vying for it and each of them won it. The fact the Welsh also won it twice should surely show that we don't always lose. However the new-ish format and celtic league sees it now played on international weekends which makes it meaningless. It is true that our academy, Prem and U20 players drafted in have lost to some experienced English teams. Same could be said for them who get thrashed if they send an academy team down (Leicester for example). Good for giving some players a run but I agree that it should now be let go.

I also agree that the B&I Cup is the one to watch. With the LV gone there could probably be more empthasis placed on that. Cheers for stuffing Pontypridd btw, that has hopefully brought their fans back down to earth. I hope all this clears things up.

McCafferty is not concerned about English club rugby, nor English test rugby nor even rugby in general. The only single overriding concern he has is Premier Rugby and how much money it is making and how much he can sell the brand for. If they consistently lose out in Europe it devalues his negotiating position so naturally he will diss the competition and any teams from other leagues that are empirically better.

The same monetary drivers apply to the French so naturally they want to improve their lot. If you can't kick long enough then move the goalposts closer. The French play too many games because they have 14 teams in their top league, so the obvious solution is to reduce the number of teams. So how would they cope with the loss of revenue? Well they would have a better chance of getting more from the HEC for a start...

Obviously English rugby has too many games as well, but are they prepared to fore-go some of that revenue to have an enhanced chance of the HEC millions? McCafferty is throwing up a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real problem - he's flogging a horse to death but rather than ease back he'd rather every other horse in the race were flogged to death as well. Result - dead horses and no race.

The Great Aukster wrote:McCafferty is not concerned about English club rugby, nor English test rugby nor even rugby in general. The only single overriding concern he has is Premier Rugby and how much money it is making and how much he can sell the brand for.

Er....the PRL IS the clubs. So he cares about the PRL but not the clubs How does that work?

Obviously English rugby has too many games as well, but are they prepared to fore-go some of that revenue to have an enhanced chance of the HEC millions? McCafferty is throwing up a smoke screen to divert attention away from the real problem - he's flogging a horse to death but rather than ease back he'd rather every other horse in the race were flogged to death as well. Result - dead horses and no race.

Exactly the same number of games as the Welsh (well the playoffs are always 100% English). But 12 teams in both leagues, playoffs, LV cup, HEC. No different. The only additional games compared with the Irish are the LV which are generally used as academy/warm up games (more like pre-season friendlies than anything else). Hardly the cause the English 'collapse'

McCafferty doesn't care about english club rugby beyond his 14 club shareholders, and he probably only sees the two in the Championship as an unnecessary annoyance. I'd put it stronger than that - he uses every waking hour to shaft, frustrate and demean english club rugby beyond his shareholders.

Whilst the poor showing of the english in HC may weaken his negotiating position with Prem sponsors and TV, it may strengthen the english negotiating position for this year's ERC accord.

At the last accord in 2007, English teams made up 3 semi-finalists in HC, 4 Q-F's in ECC and England were still RWC champions. The smaller ERC nations could point at English rugby and see it in rude health - "Why do you need more money out of the ERC pot?" they could say.

Ask the same question now, and the answer is apparent - most of PRL businesses trading at a loss, poor performances in HC, poor RWC.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:McCafferty doesn't care about english club rugby beyond his 14 club shareholders, and he probably only sees the two in the Championship as an unnecessary annoyance. I'd put it stronger than that - he uses every waking hour to shaft, frustrate and demean english club rugby beyond his shareholders.

Whilst the poor showing of the english in HC may weaken his negotiating position with Prem sponsors and TV, it may strengthen the english negotiating position for this year's ERC accord.

At the last accord in 2007, English teams made up 3 semi-finalists in HC, 4 Q-F's in ECC and England were still RWC champions. The smaller ERC nations could point at English rugby and see it in rude health - "Why do you need more money out of the ERC pot?" they could say.

Ask the same question now, and the answer is apparent - most of PRL businesses trading at a loss, poor performances in HC, poor RWC.

But the other nations like Italy can say that they need more money too.

I think Italy, Scotland, Rumania etc etc etc can all claim to be in more need of a cash injection than England.

Northampton have put out their second team for the Bath match. I thought only pro 12 teams did that sort of thing! :O

It's not a league game

profitius wrote:Northampton have put out their second team for the Bath match. I thought only pro 12 teams did that sort of thing! :O

It's an Anglo-Welsh LV Cup game, not an Aviva league match. They're used for developing players, reintroducing the injured and giving confidence to first choice sides who are on losing streaks whilst the AP & PRO12 are on bye weekends.

Basically the English clubs use the LV in a similar was as the Irish and Welsh teams use the PRO12.

Gibson wrote:Wales: Fans are full of it online, yet they dont turn up for their regions. Change it and stop moaning on here.

The fans that are not at the regions are still with their clubs, quite a lot of them have simply gone back to the Premiership. Many dont like the football style stadiums that the regions play in. Others simply want Welsh rugby the way it always has been, local towns knocking lumps out of each other, playing Irish, Scottish and Italian teams just isnt as fun for them as seeing Newport against Pontypool, Cardiff, etc....

Those fans aren't wrong they are just making a choice.

AlynDavies wrote:

Gibson wrote:Wales: Fans are full of it online, yet they dont turn up for their regions. Change it and stop moaning on here.

The fans that are not at the regions are still with their clubs, quite a lot of them have simply gone back to the Premiership. Many dont like the football style stadiums that the regions play in. Others simply want Welsh rugby the way it always has been, local towns knocking lumps out of each other, playing Irish, Scottish and Italian teams just isnt as fun for them as seeing Newport against Pontypool, Cardiff, etc....

Those fans aren't wrong they are just making a choice.

Even more of them have young families and low wages and have to support their needs over watching rugby. They can see the game on TV for a license fee and still afford to take the kids and wife on the occasional treat...!

maestegmafia wrote:Even more of them have young families and low wages and have to support their needs over watching rugby. They can see the game on TV for a license fee and still afford to take the kids and wife on the occasional treat...!

Ah so your collecting those free cinema tickets from Esso too?

AlynDavies wrote:

Gibson wrote:Wales: Fans are full of it online, yet they dont turn up for their regions. Change it and stop moaning on here.

The fans that are not at the regions are still with their clubs, quite a lot of them have simply gone back to the Premiership. Many dont like the football style stadiums that the regions play in. Others simply want Welsh rugby the way it always has been, local towns knocking lumps out of each other, playing Irish, Scottish and Italian teams just isnt as fun for them as seeing Newport against Pontypool, Cardiff, etc....

Those fans aren't wrong they are just making a choice.

Many Cardiff rugby supporters want what's best for Cardiff rugby which is why many refuse to attend games at the Cardiff City stadium.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Many Cardiff rugby supporters want what's best for Cardiff rugby which is why many refuse to attend games at the Cardiff City stadium.

As I wrote before I was sat in the Arms Park stand during the recent Swansea game and over heard a group of supporters discussing why they left the blues and have come back to Cardiff RFC, and the reasons included, bad car parking because getting in and out of the stadium is a nightmare, the poor atmosphere at the stadium.

I personally don't think it is a well designed stadium despite the covering you always seem to get soaked in the lower tier when it's raining, as well as the silly prices for food and drink, and ticket prices are higher, especially for concessions.

"bad car parking" at CCS is not something I ever considered as there is a big car park and a poor atmosphere was frequently the norm at the Arms Park. However there is no doubt CAP would have been bouncing with Racing Metro in town for a HEC group decider. 12k+ would have attended and therefore many more than the 8k that turned up at CCS.

HammerofThunor wrote:Basically the English clubs use the LV in a similar was as the Irish and Welsh teams use the PRO12.

Ah now, Leinster made plenty of changes against Montpellier and still beat the French runners up. This was in the HEC, it didn't mean they were taking it easy.

maestegmafia wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

Gibson wrote:Wales: Fans are full of it online, yet they dont turn up for their regions. Change it and stop moaning on here.

The fans that are not at the regions are still with their clubs, quite a lot of them have simply gone back to the Premiership. Many dont like the football style stadiums that the regions play in. Others simply want Welsh rugby the way it always has been, local towns knocking lumps out of each other, playing Irish, Scottish and Italian teams just isnt as fun for them as seeing Newport against Pontypool, Cardiff, etc....

Those fans aren't wrong they are just making a choice.

Even more of them have young families and low wages and have to support their needs over watching rugby. They can see the game on TV for a license fee and still afford to take the kids and wife on the occasional treat...!

I think many of them choose to go out on the lash with their mates rather than go to the rugby. I don't think it's all about poverty in Wales, some of it is about choice. Not everyone is badly paid in Wales.

Maybe they should put rugby vouchers on the back of the food stamps.

I also think that 'poverty' in Wales is extremely exaggerated on here. I personally do not know anyone who is poor (unless you count fellow students), and I come from a council estate background. We all know the reasons for poor regional attendances and I think it has very little do with whether it is affordable or not. The 3 cities in the south are football cities. It shall remain an issue until the club game becomes at least half appealing as the international game.

Milk answer me this question ... How often do you go and watch your nearest prem club?