Mark McCafferty is a disgrace

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Interview link below.

http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2011-12/rugby/story/157976.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty has suggested that a flawed qualification system is largely to blame for English rugby's failure to make a significant impression on this season's Heineken Cup.

England's leading clubs have struggled to keep pace with their European rivals in recent seasons with only one side - Premiership champions Saracens - likely to make the quarter-finals this term. The Premiership provided just one quarter-finalist two seasons ago in the shape of Northampton and the Saints, beaten finalists last year, were one of only two teams alongside Leicester to make the knock-out stages in that competition.

McCafferty believes that the Premiership's leading sides and their French Top 14 counterparts are treated unfairly by qualifying arrangements that he claims favour those teams competing in the RaboDirect PRO12. The Celtic-Italian league provides 10 teams for the Heineken Cup with the three highest placed sides from Ireland and Wales and the two sides from Scotland and Italy guaranteed qualification. Additional places are available depending on the destiny of the previous season's Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup.

McCafferty argues that the battle to claim one of the six automatic spots open to the 12-team Premiership and the Top 14 is a much tougher task - a point that he is set to put to tournament organisers European Rugby Cup Ltd.

"At the moment pretty much everyone in the PRO12 knows they've qualified for next year's Heineken, whereas French and English sides are still fighting tooth and nail and will be doing so in the middle of the Heineken Cup next season to ensure qualification for the season after," he told the Sunday Telegraph. "Make it more meritocratic and everyone will have to take their leagues seriously."

McCafferty went on to explain how he believes the process should work. "Our view is that Heineken Cup qualification should be based on league form," he said. "There are three of those - the Aviva Premiership, the Top 14 Orange in France and the Pro 12 - and you should take the qualifying teams from the best sides in those leagues. Then it's a completely meritocratic system."

This season the 24 teams in the six Heineken Cup pools are made up of 11 from the PRO12, six from the Top 14 and seven from the Premiership. McCafferty believes it should be eight across the board.

"We've put that proposal on the table but we know there will be a huge amount of resistance to it because it means countries in the PRO12, a league which currently has 10 places allocated to it, might go down to eight. There will be concerns that it could lead to one or two countries not being represented in the Heineken Cup. But the price you pay for that inclusivity is not necessarily having the best against the best."

McCafferty also highlighted what he sees as the Irish sides' ability to prioritise the Heineken Cup over domestic matters. "The real change over the past four or five years," McCafferty added, "is that the Irish sides have become more successful in Europe because of the priority they have put on it.

"After round four of this season's tournament I looked at the starting line-ups of Ulster, Leinster and Munster [all through to the quarter-finals] and only four of the 45 starters in the Heineken Cup were retained for their PRO12 league games the next weekend. Take a model where the top eight clubs qualify from each league and they wouldn't be able to take as many risks. That's the issue our clubs have.

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So let me get this straight, you want to handicap the amount of teams in the Rabbo and give 2 additional spaces to English sides to make it fairier? How is it fair that England get to enter 6 teams already? Just because other Unions have streamlined their playing pools into a smaller number of teams to increase their standard and squad strenght.

The biggest issue I have with the guy is that he has completely failed to identify the problem and yet again is looking at it from a English Club increased Revenue standpoint. In truth there are 2 bigger factors at play.

1. Relegation - Its forcing English sides to play cup rugby. Get rid of that and your teams migth stand a better chance.

2. Quality - In truth the quality of squads is no longer available to English sides. French Clubs assemble the squads for the most money so have all the biggest names and the Home Unions to a large degree are keeping their stars at home. As they dont have to split resources by as many clubs as the English do it will make them naturally stronger (with the exception of Scotland). The handicap works against teams too as you have 12 teams bidding for the same player pools. Its understandable why so many buy no name SH imports.

To think this guy is partly responsible in helping English clubs worries me. He clearly has missed the point altogether.

I hope the HC Board laugh him out of the meeting or at the very least counter the argument with "Sure - as long as you will accept 3 places instead of 6".

This bloke is an idiot and his idea of improving English Rugby is to pull other (working systems) down, instead of improving his own.

Sure isn't there a little bald headed livewire Munsterman on the Saracens team? It's a natural we'll be shouting for him - if he gets to play!

red_stag wrote:If the English clubs aren't doing well they should adapt their own system instead of proposing that other unions change their system.

Yet the funny thing is that most of the welsh posters are doing just that, telling us to cut the number of clubs, regionalism is the way ahead. Yet the regions have no support, are constantly derided on here by the welsh as failing?

LordDowlais wrote:Yes that is all very well, but if you had enough players then the squads in the English set-up would not be bloated out with non English qualified players. I do not buy into this coaching nonsense as the coaches can only work with what they have at their disposal, if you had less teams then you would not need half as many foreigners playing for them as the places would be fought over by all English players. That is what regionalism is aiming for in Wales, it is just, at the time of regionalisation, we did/do not have enough quality players at our disposal (or they were all snapped up by the Ospreys) so we had to introduce some NWQ players, but now with the youngsters we have coming through I really can see Wales reaping the rewards for going into regionalism.

That doesn't really make sense. You're right, there aren't enough English players to fill 12 teams to the same standard it is now. But if you reduce the number of teams to 8 and made them 100% English then you would have about the same number of English players involved as are now. Only the standard would be lower as a large portion of them aren't as good as a lot of the foreigners. Getting rid of foreign players doesn't magically make the mutlitudes of English players currently there better.

I wonder where people think all the Argentinos, Pacific Islander, and a few Eastern European (are to a degree Scotland) players would get professional rugby if the English and French systems became closed off to them? A large proportion of the non-English players are British or Irish. Forgetting the rather unpleasent idea of private UK business not giving jobs to UK citizens the English and French systems are a drainage system for these players from their own leagues. They generally don't have a chance at international level and move for the money. If these jobs weren't available then there would a lot of cheap decent players with nowhere to go except home. Do you think that the Welsh system (only as an example) would develope the youngsters as well? I doubt it, that's at least partly out of need not desire. The English and French system can absorb these players very easily and still have more locally qualified players than any other pro system in the world. The only way that the number of foreigners is an issue is if they're focused in one particular area. Reducing the teams wouldn't help this issue and could easily worsen it.


Oh and Beshocked, I'll be cheering on Saracens. I think the management have been good to their word that any increase in foreign players would be temporary while the local talent develops. They seem to be focusing on bringing in English talent and the odd top foreign player (Smit). You were saying earlier in the season that you think an english team will win it this year. Still think that?

beshocked wrote:Unpopular with who red stag?

You Irish should love us. You keep beating us.

To win the HC cup Saracens would likely have to beat Clermont,Leinster and Munster in a row. Ouch!

Coincidentally they are the 3 sides in the competition we have the worst head to heads against.

Home advantage should come in handy though.

I hope the other English fans support us. I can dream can't I?

We could do it couldn't we?

Saracens don't tie in with the popular belief that English rugby is in free fall. They are the exception that prove the rule and many Welsh, Irish etc are happy to write them off as South African.

In England you have fans from Wasps, Tigers, Saints, Gloucester and Bath etc who may not be happy with the changing of the torch and again they don't seem to be all that popular at home.

SecretFly wrote:Sure isn't there a little bald headed livewire Munsterman on the Saracens team? It's a natural we'll be shouting for him - if he gets to play!

Must have a SA grandparent then if he plays for us

Well as everyone knows as it is on here as FACT that we only play South Africans and don't have any English players

By the Welsh ? or some Welsh fans.

The regions are working the academies are now producing some great young talent.
What people need to realise is that the regions are not even ten years old yet the Irish provinces and English clubs have over a 100 years advantage in forming a big fan base.
They Will come they will come.

No Mickado we lost. Lack of intensity that day because we were out of the competition. Well actually we were out when we lost to you at Wembley.

Bloody Sexton.

Will you be supporting us simply because you believe you'll have an easier game in the semi?

I would relish a rematch of Sarries-Leinster at Wembley.

To be the best you got to beat the best.

Payback is needed for our losses to Clermont,Leinster and Munster. Beating all 3 and winning the HC cup would certainly exorcise the demons!

Secretfly true.

Knackeredknees wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Sure isn't there a little bald headed livewire Munsterman on the Saracens team? It's a natural we'll be shouting for him - if he gets to play!

Must have a SA grandparent then if he plays for us

Well as everyone knows as it is on here as FACT that we only play South Africans and don't have any English players

No - no grandparent.....but he qualifies because he was in SA - so he legitmately took 100% SA air into his nostrils and actually (say it quietly) - inhaled!
So, for the purposes of Saracen's stringent requirements, he passed the SA bloodtest.

With Englands player numbers they should still be able to have 3-6 teams at top european level.

I know people remark that Ireland and Wales players are concentrated into 4 teams, and Englands resources are put into 12 teams.

But people forget how great England resources normally are compared to Wales and Ireland.

All have about 30 test players (Level A), England and Ireland have 'A' teams of about another 20 players (Level B) (Wales doesn't even have this depth) and England has the player numbers and strength that they could field another equally strong 'A' team (Level C) which Ireland couldn't and Wales could only dream about. and then all teams will have a number of players that are not international class but can do a job in a league (level D).

England has more players at every level than Ireland or Wales, meaning that they can support 12 teams to a high level, and should support about 4 of these 12 to a very high level and maybe 2 to being amoung the top in the NH.
It's just at present England haven't got as many players at every level as they had in prevous years, this is only tempory as, with 12/14 top club acamadies, (to Ireland and Wales's 4) England will produce more players again.

Cymroglan wrote:By the Welsh ? or some Welsh fans.

The regions are working the academies are now producing some great young talent.
What people need to realise is that the regions are not even ten years old yet the Irish provinces and English clubs have over a 100 years advantage in forming a big fan base.
They Will come they will come.

Sorry Cym some welsh posters!
The academies are producing well, but to tell us that the regions are the way ahead when the HC and attendance figures don't reflect this.

If all had been left alone how do you think Neath,Cardiff,Swansea,bridgend would have done in the HC?

Hammerofthunor simply because Saracens would have home advantage the whole way. Glad to hear you'll be cheering for us. We'll need some neutrals!

Of course it could all go wrong. Afterall it will be the HC knockout stages against the best sides in Europe.

Leinster are still the favourites with Munster 2nd but we should be 3rd or 4th.Sarries are the dark horse.

Delighted Sarries are giving Peter Stringer game time. Hope he signs on full time after his loan spell is up. If not I'd love to see him at Connacht.
On topic, this guy is just trying to do his job i.e. get the best deal for his organisation but any chance he may have had is squashed by this quote.

"There will be concerns that it could lead to one or two countries not being represented in the Heineken Cup. But the price you pay for that inclusivity is not necessarily having the best against the best."

How can he justify allowing the 8th best teams from England and France into a competition at the expense of representation from 2 entire national unions? This is supposed to be the "European" cup after all.

beshocked wrote:No Mickado we lost. Lack of intensity that day because we were out of the competition. Well actually we were out when we lost to you at Wembley.

Bloody Sexton.

Will you be supporting us simply because you believe you'll have an easier game in the semi?

I would relish a rematch of Sarries-Leinster at Wembley.

To be the best you got to beat the best.

Payback is needed for our losses to Clermont,Leinster and Munster. Beating all 3 and winning the HC cup would certainly exorcise the demons!

Secretfly true.

Not because I believe it will be easier game, although I do rate Clermont at home better than Saracens (and any other club in Europe). I’ll be cheering for Saracens because if they win I can go to the match, if they don’t. I’m screwed!

Submachine it's unlikely Stringer will sign on full time with Saracens because De Kock and Wigglesworth will be back at some point. Also Ben Spencer is playing really well.

Stringer has done his job well though as cover.

I agree. It's about the timing of Mark McCafferty's comments. So inappropriate with only 1 English side in the quarter finals.

If the AP had 3-4 clubs in the quarter finals then he would have been well within his rights.

The likes of Scarlets,Connacht and Edinburgh have shown us AP fans that they should not be simply written off.

I have also been guilty of writing off Pro12 sides. Though at the moment I sit in the very fortunate position of supporting an AP club in the HC quarter finals.

Quins blew their HC ambitions with that loss to Connacht. Saints simply were not good enough. Leicester simply to lost a bit of their steel and grit.

Bath and London Irish simply didn't turn up. Gloucester suffered against their bogey side - Quins.

Knackeredknees
They all would have been in the amateur mindset and would have probably been two steps back from where we are now.
The regions teams idea was a good idea if it had been planned properly but from the start it was flawed by using the old club names rather than coming up with a completely new name and also having four regions that represented the whole of Wales.

To win the HC cup Saracens would likely have to beat Clermont,Leinster and Munster in a row. Ouch

You can beat Clermont. Tigers managed to throw that game away with the help of the ref in Clermont and beat them at Welford Rd despite playing badly. Sarries should not be to troubled as long as they bother to turn up. Munster are dangerous but if Sarries have a fit pack I think they'll batter the brave Munster lads up front and come out on top. Leinster will be the real problem if Sarries are on form.

As for McCaferty;

McCafferty argues that the battle to claim one of the six automatic spots open to the 12-team Premiership and the Top 14 is a much tougher task

Yes true. There will be no change though, the Unions in Wales and Ireland are happy with the provinces/regions serving their own cash cow (international rugby) and so won't lift a finger to change anything. The provinces/regions are funded by the Unions and so are hardly going to bite the hand that feeds them. English rugby will have to improve, simple as that and if it can't then things will change (probably starting with the DOR and HC at Leicester Tigers).

Mickado wrote:

beshocked wrote:No Mickado we lost. Lack of intensity that day because we were out of the competition. Well actually we were out when we lost to you at Wembley.

Bloody Sexton.

Will you be supporting us simply because you believe you'll have an easier game in the semi?

I would relish a rematch of Sarries-Leinster at Wembley.

To be the best you got to beat the best.

Payback is needed for our losses to Clermont,Leinster and Munster. Beating all 3 and winning the HC cup would certainly exorcise the demons!

Secretfly true.

Not because I believe it will be easier game, although I do rate Clermont at home better than Saracens (and any other club in Europe). I’ll be cheering for Saracens because if they win I can go to the match, if they don’t. I’m screwed!

Saracens vs Leinster at Wembley - HC semi would be awesome! Would be a little bit nervous about how many Leinster fans would go though.

beshocked wrote:

Mickado wrote:

beshocked wrote:No Mickado we lost. Lack of intensity that day because we were out of the competition. Well actually we were out when we lost to you at Wembley.

Bloody Sexton.

Will you be supporting us simply because you believe you'll have an easier game in the semi?

I would relish a rematch of Sarries-Leinster at Wembley.

To be the best you got to beat the best.

Payback is needed for our losses to Clermont,Leinster and Munster. Beating all 3 and winning the HC cup would certainly exorcise the demons!

Secretfly true.

Not because I believe it will be easier game, although I do rate Clermont at home better than Saracens (and any other club in Europe). I’ll be cheering for Saracens because if they win I can go to the match, if they don’t. I’m screwed!

Saracens vs Leinster at Wembley - HC semi would be awesome! Would be a little bit nervous about how many Leinster fans would go though.

Beshocked, I'll also be shouting for Sarries against Clermont (as I live in North London I'll hopefully be shouting for them from one of the stands in Wembley). As I don't think I'll get to the Munster games unless they make the final it would be great to get to a qf and sf even if they're not for my own team!! Your issue above should be a worry for Sarries, although the atmosphere at Wembley for a Sarries v Leinster sf would be amazing and very lucrative for Sarries, it would have the potential to work against Sarries as a home fixture. I could easily see Leinster fans taking up to 60% of the stadium.... both teams have to win their q/f's first though.

Leinster supporters HQ in London is Hughies gaff, there are 1000's of us staying there.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes that is all very well, but if you had enough players then the squads in the English set-up would not be bloated out with non English qualified players. I do not buy into this coaching nonsense as the coaches can only work with what they have at their disposal, if you had less teams then you would not need half as many foreigners playing for them as the places would be fought over by all English players. That is what regionalism is aiming for in Wales, it is just, at the time of regionalisation, we did/do not have enough quality players at our disposal (or they were all snapped up by the Ospreys) so we had to introduce some NWQ players, but now with the youngsters we have coming through I really can see Wales reaping the rewards for going into regionalism.

That doesn't really make sense. You're right, there aren't enough English players to fill 12 teams to the same standard it is now. But if you reduce the number of teams to 8 and made them 100% English then you would have about the same number of English players involved as are now. Only the standard would be lower as a large portion of them aren't as good as a lot of the foreigners. Getting rid of foreign players doesn't magically make the mutlitudes of English players currently there better.

I wonder where people think all the Argentinos, Pacific Islander, and a few Eastern European (are to a degree Scotland) players would get professional rugby if the English and French systems became closed off to them? A large proportion of the non-English players are British or Irish. Forgetting the rather unpleasent idea of private UK business not giving jobs to UK citizens the English and French systems are a drainage system for these players from their own leagues. They generally don't have a chance at international level and move for the money. If these jobs weren't available then there would a lot of cheap decent players with nowhere to go except home. Do you think that the Welsh system (only as an example) would develope the youngsters as well? I doubt it, that's at least partly out of need not desire. The English and French system can absorb these players very easily and still have more locally qualified players than any other pro system in the world. The only way that the number of foreigners is an issue is if they're focused in one particular area. Reducing the teams wouldn't help this issue and could easily worsen it.


Oh and Beshocked, I'll be cheering on Saracens. I think the management have been good to their word that any increase in foreign players would be temporary while the local talent develops. They seem to be focusing on bringing in English talent and the odd top foreign player (Smit). You were saying earlier in the season that you think an english team will win it this year. Still think that?

Firstly I did not say to keep all teams 100% English, all I am saying is to reduce your non English qualified players, also you say that the standard would drop lower, but why would it ? Surely it would have been more to Leicester's benefit to have Flood and Twelvetrees fighting for the same position, instead you have Flood and a non English qualified player fighting for a spot. If you condense the player base then surely you would sooner see the better players risng to the top rather than having to use non english qualified players when the internationals are away. I am all for one or two quality imports, but just as we were in Wales before regionalism the English squads are bloated with foreign recruits. I rember when Ebbw Vale had it's own Polynesian population there, the only good thing that came of that was Toby Faletua . As for you asking me about the Welsh system and the development of players then you can only see for yourself, Warburton, Lydiate, Faletua, North, Lloyd Williams, Bradley Davies, Craig Mitchell, to name but a few, then we have even younger players with as much promise comming through, like Cuthbert, Harris, I could go on but I would be typing names forever. Also I am not getting into an argument about human rights and why they should be allowed to work where they want, because I agree with you on that, but if you want England and English clubs to be better, you need to move with the times.

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor simply because Saracens would have home advantage the whole way. Glad to hear you'll be cheering for us. We'll need some neutrals!

Of course it could all go wrong. Afterall it will be the HC knockout stages against the best sides in Europe.

Leinster are still the favourites with Munster 2nd but we should be 3rd or 4th.Sarries are the dark horse.

as much as it hurts me to say this, but i'll be cheering you guys on!

I'll be cheering on Sarries anyway.

To the OP - I think you're pretty much bang on the money with your observations and suggestions. Some of which are workable and some that would go down like a lead balloon, sadly.

At the moment, our league is so bad i seriously wonder whether we can justify our places in the HC.

I do think the salary cap is an issue when compared to the French, and the lack of concentrated talent and relegation points are both spot on. However, i also think coaching is a massive issue, as is talent identification and the profliferation of journeyman overseas players.

At the moment, a number of English coaches look way off the pace to me, in terms of ideas and IQ. Booth and Cockerill spring immediately to mind (no offence to any of their respective supporters) as coaches with decent squads, a good balance of youngsters and older players, but absolutely no coherent gameplan or progressive coaching.

The bottom 4 or 5 teams in the league are pitiful at the moment. My team, Newcastle, are desperately poor.

Relegation, and the attritional and negative culture it breeds is a problem, but the flip-side is locking teams like Bristol, Leeds and Newcastle out of the top league. Might be necessary but when you see how many players are coming out of their academies it's a scary thought.

All this said, if the points made by one poster on redistribution of funds is true, i think it's perfectly fair for the English and French to question the current HC model.

Have the French questioned it ?

Hood83 wrote:To the OP - I think you're pretty much bang on the money with your observations and suggestions. Some of which are workable and some that would go down like a lead balloon, sadly.

At the moment, our league is so bad i seriously wonder whether we can justify our places in the HC.

I do think the salary cap is an issue when compared to the French, and the lack of concentrated talent and relegation points are both spot on. However, i also think coaching is a massive issue, as is talent identification and the profliferation of journeyman overseas players.

At the moment, a number of English coaches look way off the pace to me, in terms of ideas and IQ. Booth and Cockerill spring immediately to mind (no offence to any of their respective supporters) as coaches with decent squads, a good balance of youngsters and older players, but absolutely no coherent gameplan or progressive coaching.

The bottom 4 or 5 teams in the league are pitiful at the moment. My team, Newcastle, are desperately poor.

Relegation, and the attritional and negative culture it breeds is a problem, but the flip-side is locking teams like Bristol, Leeds and Newcastle out of the top league. Might be necessary but when you see how many players are coming out of their academies it's a scary thought.

All this said, if the points made by one poster on redistribution of funds is true, i think it's perfectly fair for the English and French to question the current HC model.

All that is opinion so I'm loath to say "well said" as others will tell you you're wrong. But for my part, Well said.

On the last bit - yes too, in love and war, people have a right to profess their opinions. The French and English question HC model? - fine, their right. But it needs to be understood that Pro12 will have their own questions about that model if things get formal (most notably the point you raised about English qualification number.... and, yes, even the great French Top14 will be questioned in that regard) That is something I have a feeling McCafferty is overlooking - the voice of the accused.

At the moment, a number of English coaches look way off the pace to me, in terms of ideas and IQ. Booth and Cockerill spring immediately to mind

As a Tigers fan it's not so much Cockerill that is worrying me it's the backroom staff. Blaze was brought in to monitor the lineouts and attacking forward play which is okay. O'Connor is the backs coach and in charge of the backs in defence and attack but there is no coherent game plan in either. Paul Burke is the kicking coach but that is a thoroughly mixed bag. Cockerill looks over the rest which includes the scrums (excellent) and forwards defence (dire, around the breakdown imparticular). Some of the framework ideas are pretty good but the details to bring them to life are not working.

O'Connor needs to be thanked and then ushered out the door and replaced by an innovative attack coach with an experienced defence coach brought in at the same time.

The squad turnover might help Tigers out as well as there was some required dead wood maintained for the benefit of the RWC period. Twelvetrees leaving is a slap in the face though.

I think the comments in the article are poorly put and timed but if you take some of the emotion out of the subject and looked at it objectively I think there is some validity to his argument. If you forgot about nationality for a minute and took a look at the stats like this you can’t fail to see that it doesn’t look right:

League 1 – 12 teams, 11 teams qualified for HC in 2011/12 (92%), 5 previous winners
League 2 – 14 teams, 6 teams qualified for HC in 2011/12 (43%), 5 previous winners
League 3 – 12 teams, 7 teams qualified for HC in 2011/12 (58%), 6 previous winners

Anyway you look at those figures there is a bias in favour of the Rabo league (League 1).
If you look at the total teams that qualify across the leagues it is about 63%. Straight away that is too many if you are talking about an elite competition. For example to make it more competitive let’s assume that it was cut to 16 teams. Then let’s then assume that the qualified teams are spread more evenly based on teams in the league so 5 each for the Rabo and England and 6 for France. I would say this is fair given the number of teams and the number of winners that have come from the league. Surely this would make for not only a more competitive domestic league as teams fight for qualification but also a more competitive European Cup?

For those who would argue that this is unfair on the Rabo as there are 4 countries vying for qualification I would say that your countries have come together to form one league as you are not of a size to support a bigger league individually and this in itself cannot be a justification for having more teams? Put it this way. If you accept what I have said above that the Rabo should have 5 teams, would you allocate them based on the top 5 teams in the league or say on the top 2 positioned Irish teams plus the top Welsh, Scottish and Italian teams? I think you would be insane to base this on the latter but that in effect is what the current system is doing i.e. qualification by which country you represent rather than competitiveness in your domestic league?

As an Englishman I have no interest in gaining more qualifying places and in fact wouldn’t mind if it became even less for us and became only four as my interest is in maximising the competitiveness of both our domestic and European leagues. Surely if this is also your wish you have to accept that there is something wrong with the current system?

[quote="LordDowlais]Firstly I did not say to keep all teams 100% English, all I am saying is to reduce your non English qualified players, also you say that the standard would drop lower, but why would it ? Surely it would have been more to Leicester's benefit to have Flood and Twelvetrees fighting for the same position, instead you have Flood and a non English qualified player fighting for a spot. If you condense the player base then surely you would sooner see the better players risng to the top rather than having to use non english qualified players when the internationals are away. I am all for one or two quality imports, but just as we were in Wales before regionalism the English squads are bloated with foreign recruits. I rember when Ebbw Vale had it's own Polynesian population there, the only good thing that came of that was Toby Faletua . As for you asking me about the Welsh system and the development of players then you can only see for yourself, Warburton, Lydiate, Faletua, North, Lloyd Williams, Bradley Davies, Craig Mitchell, to name but a few, then we have even younger players with as much promise comming through, like Cuthbert, Harris, I could go on but I would be typing names forever. Also I am not getting into an argument about human rights and why they should be allowed to work where they want, because I agree with you on that, but if you want England and English clubs to be better, you need to move with the times. [/quote]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was if we reduced the number of teams to 8 AND forced 100% then we would break even in terms of number of English players playing. If we went to 6 (often suggested) or dropped below that 100% at 8 teams then we have fewer English players playing.

Regarding the drop in standard, well if the English players were better and the same price then they would be playing. The cap forces the clubs to go for cheaper options, which is often a foreign player (especially considering the cluster-XXXX of proper compensation for EPS players). One simple solution would be to raise the salary cap but this could easily be done with 12 teams. The RFU already provide funding based on the number of English players in playing squads and since then the number of foreigners has dropped (a couple of seasons ago). With the Flood/Twelvetrees thing, Twelvetrees is a centre and is still picked ahead of Stuanton who is just back up and will probably be replaced by 19 year old Ford at the end of the season. Twelvetrees' problem is that he was to be a 12 and Leicester can't promise it due to them having Allen there. So he's stuck as a bench player for Flood and Allen or fills in during their absences. Note they're all English.

Regarding the Welsh development, would you be developing those players as much if the Welsh players in the Premiership (e.g. Gill [sorry beshocked], Roberts, Peel, Powell, James, etc) were available for the Pro12 clubs and cheap because they had nowhere else to go? Maybe but I wouldn't bet on it. It's working very well for the Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams at the moment.

I honestly don't see how reducing the number of foreigners will have any effect on the performance of the clubs or England national side. The improvement to the national side from reducing teams (IMO) has much much more to do with more of the same players getting together more often. But most English fans don't want to sacrifice their clubs to do this (and are perfectly valid in their opinion).

5 each for the Rabo and England and 6 for France

5 for each League (as they are of a similar size) and the 16th place to go to the winner from the previous year. So this year Leinster would auto qualify along with 5 other Rabo teams.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

5 each for the Rabo and England and 6 for France

5 for each League (as they are of a similar size) and the 16th place to go to the winner from the previous year. So this year Leinster would auto qualify along with 5 other Rabo teams.

That would work for me, bit of reward for the league that produced the winner each year.

How about that the Pro12 can only play away games and they cant select anybody that has a full cap.

Jesus how much advantage do you want.

Toadfish wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

5 each for the Rabo and England and 6 for France

5 for each League (as they are of a similar size) and the 16th place to go to the winner from the previous year. So this year Leinster would auto qualify along with 5 other Rabo teams.

That would work for me, bit of reward for the league that produced the winner each year.

I would have no issue with that in the long term. I would look at restricting squads though. All HC squads announced at the start of the tournament and after the group stages to contain no more that 4 players who are not qualified to play for the country of the club/provinces origin, this should help in reducing the affect of variations between the different salary caps.

So all these changes need to be done just because Ireland have done well in the recent past and have more sides through this year than anybody else.
Am I correct in thinking if Ireland don't win it this year then no changes will be needed.
Ireland are showing the way it's up to us to catch up with them and not try and drag them down to our level.

I don't see why there cant be 8 HC groups - another 8 slots.

2 for the last 2 Rabo teams and 4 more for England and France.

That takes the English and French down to 10th place
To make the Leagues competitive make league position a factor in seeding alongside performances in previous years in the HC.
Only 1 team qualifies from each group.

Drop the Amlin or change to the next level of rugby in each 6N country with the non 6N teams. The games against the non 6N teams are a farce anyway.

Cymroglan wrote:So all these changes need to be done just because Ireland have done well in the recent past and have more sides through this year than anybody else.
Am I correct in thinking if Ireland don't win it this year then no changes will be needed.
Ireland are showing the way it's up to us to catch up with them and not try and drag them down to our level.

Cymroglan, I salute you.

Cymroglan wrote:So all these changes need to be done just because Ireland have done well in the recent past and have more sides through this year than anybody else.
Am I correct in thinking if Ireland don't win it this year then no changes will be needed.
Ireland are showing the way it's up to us to catch up with them and not try and drag them down to our level.

When did this become anything to do with Ireland? I can't really see any fans of the provinces objecting massively to what I said. I don't think Leinster or Munster would ever worry about qualifying too much. Ulster on recent form would expect to be in the running more often than not and Connacht aren't quite good enough yet but I wouldn't rule them out of making a run for it over the next few years.

Have you got any logical arguments as to why the current system is fair and should not be changed?

Cymroglan wrote:Have the French questioned it ?

No, and a fair point, i didn't mean to suggest this was an issue exorcising them, just that they have a system that is more similar to ours.

Yes I have.... Who takes part is not decided on leagues it's the countries involved in the six nations
Every country has a quota and how they deal with it is their problem.
We just have to face facts that Ireland's provinces are doing better than the rest of us.
Nobody was asking for wholesale changes when England dominated the competition.

Hood83 wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:Have the French questioned it ?

No, and a fair point, i didn't mean to suggest this was an issue exorcising them, just that they have a system that is more similar to ours.

They also have more money sunk into them than either English or Pro12 sides. So is McCafferty asking us (Pro12) to roll in and support him in demanding a level playing field in the wage cap field? All sides in all leagues who want HC positions must subscribe to a wage cap - a strict one - not a penny more or less than each other.

Now, I know where that thought would go. "Ridiculous, the smaller clubs/regions/provinces just don't have a budget that can sustain a realistic league season and HC assault - we'd have to be dragged down to their budgets???? The big guys??? The guys at the *cough* top??? Us???? To make it something called 'fair' and a 'level playing field'??? Never - cop on man, talk sense."

So there goes 'Level playing field' off the agenda Glad I sorted that out.

These types of changes have been banded about for years. Including in 2007 when there were 3 English semi finalists and 2 finalists. The was just after Munsters first win and when Leinster were still ladyboys.

If you increase the size of the HEC even more you might as well just have a European league instead. Not that I would be against that in general

Why do you keep bring up Ireland? I admitted that the timing of the comments was poor but the logic behind the current system has to be questioned. You are effectively advocating a situation where there is no qualification for some clubs based on their location? Surely for the likes of Italy having their sides in a league where they are facing the likes of Munster and Cardiff on a regular basis is good enough for them now. The next stage in their development has to be aspiring to the next level i.e. the HC?

I just fail to see how making it more difficult for clubs to qualify for the HC (in all leagues) would not benefit them in the long run?

HammerofThunor wrote:These types of changes have been banded about for years. Including in 2007 when there were 3 English semi finalists and 2 finalists. The was just after Munsters first win and when Leinster were still ladyboys.

If you increase the size of the HEC even more you might as well just have a European league instead. Not that I would be against that in general

As we all know - even the people following the (at present) more successful ones - these European games aren't easy. They demand a major increase in intensity from players. To have a European League where these kind of games would be more common in a season would make for a highly attritional version of rugby and I think you'd slowly see players Have to prioritise - stars of the League or International stars. I don't think many could perform both roles in such a sustained intense competition. HC truly does drag club rugby up a few notches and we're all seeing how difficult it is for many sides to keep going, even in the truncated 'league'. Damn it, at this stage the Six Nations might be seen as a refreshing break for players who are in both competitions!

We just have to face facts that Ireland's provinces are doing better than the rest of us

They certainly have come good under some careful management and recruitment. The Irish are pushing the boundaries in terms of contact, the breakdown and mauls. They are being innovative and trying to compete in every facet of the game rather than just resting on 'team strengths'. That is why they are enjoying success. It is also why they are easily tempting home many of the Irish players that left the Emerald Isle a few years ago when things weren't so rosy. There's no particular reason English, Welsh, Scottish or French clubs can't emulate the success but for some reason the clubs from these countries tend to have weaknesses at the minute that are being exploited.

Be interesting to see if there is a large player movement this summer and whether coaches are to move as well. As clubs try to re-arm ready for next season.

SecretFly wrote:

Hood83 wrote:To the OP - I think you're pretty much bang on the money with your observations and suggestions. Some of which are workable and some that would go down like a lead balloon, sadly.

At the moment, our league is so bad i seriously wonder whether we can justify our places in the HC.

I do think the salary cap is an issue when compared to the French, and the lack of concentrated talent and relegation points are both spot on. However, i also think coaching is a massive issue, as is talent identification and the profliferation of journeyman overseas players.

At the moment, a number of English coaches look way off the pace to me, in terms of ideas and IQ. Booth and Cockerill spring immediately to mind (no offence to any of their respective supporters) as coaches with decent squads, a good balance of youngsters and older players, but absolutely no coherent gameplan or progressive coaching.

The bottom 4 or 5 teams in the league are pitiful at the moment. My team, Newcastle, are desperately poor.

Relegation, and the attritional and negative culture it breeds is a problem, but the flip-side is locking teams like Bristol, Leeds and Newcastle out of the top league. Might be necessary but when you see how many players are coming out of their academies it's a scary thought.

All this said, if the points made by one poster on redistribution of funds is true, i think it's perfectly fair for the English and French to question the current HC model.

All that is opinion so I'm loath to say "well said" as others will tell you you're wrong. But for my part, Well said.

On the last bit - yes too, in love and war, people have a right to profess their opinions. The French and English question HC model? - fine, their right. But it needs to be understood that Pro12 will have their own questions about that model if things get formal (most notably the point you raised about English qualification number.... and, yes, even the great French Top14 will be questioned in that regard) That is something I have a feeling McCafferty is overlooking - the voice of the accused.

Cheers. Absolutely, it seems quite right that the OP and other supporters of non-English teams question McCafferty's motives. I know i would. Basically, it's a bit of a mess over here and we need to look long an hard at all areas, including those closer to home.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

We just have to face facts that Ireland's provinces are doing better than the rest of us

They certainly have come good under some careful management and recruitment. The Irish are pushing the boundaries in terms of contact, the breakdown and mauls. They are being innovative and trying to compete in every facet of the game rather than just resting on 'team strengths'. That is why they are enjoying success. It is also why they are easily tempting home many of the Irish players that left the Emerald Isle a few years ago when things weren't so rosy. There's no particular reason English, Welsh, Scottish or French clubs can't emulate the success but for some reason the clubs from these countries tend to have weaknesses at the minute that are being exploited.

Be interesting to see if there is a large player movement this summer and whether coaches are to move as well. As clubs try to re-arm ready for next season.

I think the point on the Irish pushing the boundaries, or perhaps 'pushing the envelope', is a good one. A lot more innovation going on from both the Scottish and Irish teams. One thing i noticed with Edinburgh and some Irish teams is something the ABs did well, which was, after clearing out rucks, essentially carrying on pushing defenders back about 2 more metres. The result is more room for quick pick and go drives from the edges of rucks. I have no idea it it's legal, and i don;t care, it's smart and should be a model the English teams look at. They're not of course. We favour a ponderous run-up and flop.

Toadfish the best sides of England France Wales Ireland are already involved so how can any changes make the quality any better ?
Scotland have a side in the quarter and Italy will continue improving.

The only way your system would be fair is if the Pro12 split up and went their separate ways.
Just because England and France are allowed to put six teams through does not necessarily mean they are quality sides.
It's the teams that need to improve not the system.

Maybe - in Ireland - sorry for mentioning it again, but we all kinda know the arguments about HC spots is all about Pro12 almost monopolising QF spots this year (mostly Irish). But maybe our growing success is simply down to the fact that rugby is perhaps becoming our No1 sport?

I think in real terms it is (sorry GAA). I think we as a nation are just falling in love with it and growing in confidence as we do.

Having said that, Wales will now beat us in 6N, Saracens will win the HC and that particular idea will be laughed off as downright 'fruity'

In recent poll Rugby was 2nd most popular sport along with GAA and behind soccer, was it an RTE poll I think?

SecretFly wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:Have the French questioned it ?

No, and a fair point, i didn't mean to suggest this was an issue exorcising them, just that they have a system that is more similar to ours.

They also have more money sunk into them than either English or Pro12 sides. So is McCafferty asking us (Pro12) to roll in and support him in demanding a level playing field in the wage cap field? All sides in all leagues who want HC positions must subscribe to a wage cap - a strict one - not a penny more or less than each other.

Now, I know where that thought would go. "Ridiculous, the smaller clubs/regions/provinces just don't have a budget that can sustain a realistic league season and HC assault - we'd have to be dragged down to their budgets???? The big guys??? The guys at the *cough* top??? Us???? To make it something called 'fair' and a 'level playing field'??? Never - cop on man, talk sense."

So there goes 'Level playing field' off the agenda Glad I sorted that out.

Ha, well yes, inevitably. I think the Jeff is stuck betwixt and between. We don't have the money to ensure top class overseas players who can raise the level of the game to which English players aspire. Nor do we have a system that focuses the best English players into a top level all playing against one another, rather than facing dross like my team Newcastle.

The whole 'There's 6 billion English playing the game and they're still crap' argument seems to answer its own insult - we're spread thin.

That, and as i say, poor talent identification (Mike Hooper gets picked up at what, 25? 26?) and rubbish coaching. It's a powerful recipe for mediocrity.

roddersm wrote:In recent poll Rugby was 2nd most popular sport along with GAA and behind soccer, was it an RTE poll I think?

Yes, but the soccer that is most popular is the soccer that gets played in England (not the Irish version). So TV watching and travelling over to England - yes, soccer. Own grown sport? I think rugby is cutting deeply into the GAA hegemony.