Gloucester Backline 2012/2013 Season is going to be strong!

Accroding to the BBC website Gloucester have made signed Billy Twelvetrees for next season.

Spoiler:

With this signing Gloucesters backline for next season is looking really strong. IMO it will be:
10: Burns
11:J-S-D
12: Twelvetrees
13: Trinder
14: Sharples
15: May

To me this looks like a great backline with pace and power with a fly half who this season is pciking all the right options. I think this could even be the future England backline.

Now what does everyone else think?

BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16669543.stm

Sky - Rugby: http://www1.skysports.com/news/12040/7446030/

Don't forget they've also signed Phillips from Stade and are interested in Stephen Jones at 10 as well. Just need a top quality scrum-half, possibly Joe Simpson?

JSD aside ( due to age and his injury history rather than ability) they are all in the frame for England places.
Its no stronger of course than the backs line they currently have, except that youd hope the younger lads would keep improving as chaps like Burns, May Trinder etc are at the stage where they can really kick on.
36 is a great signing for Gloucs, covering for the assumed loss of EFSP and his twitter account. He really has the potential to be a great all round center, theres really no glaring weakness in his game. The only caution is that hes had a habit of mixing poor games (usually when put in FH ) with the match winning ones.
Itll be interesting to see whos got the better deal...Tigers taking and keeping the limited but consitent Allen, or Gloucester gettinmg 36 because Cockerill wont play him in his strongest position. A side not to that, I wish Farrel would get in a strop with his dad and move to Tigers for that reason, wont happen of course.

The number of forgien players in the top Jeff teams first choice sides has dropped over the last couple of years as more of the polynesiains choose the bigger wages in France and Japan.
The old cliche bleat about them ruining Englands chances will be put to the test. Theres a huge number of "Saxons" level players getting regular rugby in HC sides.
Next season Saracens too can claim a potential England backline ( Wigglesworth, Hogson, Barrit, Farrel, Ashton, Strettle, Goode), and if Tigers do sign Benjamin they will only be a fullback and a winger away from one ( Youngs, Flood, Allen, Tuillagi, Benjamin) And Quins are only a winger away if Evans goes ( Care, Clegg, JTH, Hopper, Monye, Brown) ... all likely first team regular starters.
All 3 of those sides have plenty of good English backs in the second string too who will get gametime through the season.

These players are at the top clubs playing together regulalry. These sides should be in the HC next year, and playing at the highest club levels. Thats another excuse for the next England manager gone ( its not fair that Gatland just picks Ospreys backline etc.)

Anyway it looks very much like Gloucester are back on track as a force in the Premiership again. They were a bit of a surpise package last year, this year is consoolidation, next year maybe they can try and make a mark on Europe.

Delighted to hear that. I've always liked Gloucester ever since they took on Munster nearly 10 years ago.

red_stag wrote:Delighted to hear that. I've always liked Gloucester ever since they took on Munster nearly 10 years ago.

I take it they lost then?

That is a seriously good young backline. Add Morgan into the mix at fullback too and there is real pace. I agree that the majority of that backline could turn out for England.
May is going to be a real talent I think, maybe the best of the bunch, we will see!

Funny you left out the 9! Need a signing there I feel, maybe a goal kicking one would help, as Burns isn't consistent enough yet.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

red_stag wrote:Delighted to hear that. I've always liked Gloucester ever since they took on Munster nearly 10 years ago.

I take it they lost then?

They trounced us in the Shed and we returned the favour in Thomond.

Then we played them the following season and once again we lost in Kingsholm and won in Thomond.

Then we met again in the HEC quarter finals where we were able to win over in Gloucester.

But we have had some great battles together. They have top fans and always played good rugby.

Red stag the love is very much reciprocated! Those 2 games were fantastic and the banter with Munster fans was as good as I can remember visiting Kingsholm, although I do still have nightmares over the Miracle of Thormund Park! The tickets for that QF were changing hands for over £400! Munster are always very welcome to Gloucester as in general I feel the demographic of the fanbase is very similar.

The Glaws backline does look very promising and 36 will add something different to our existing team. Being pragmatic, I do feel we’ll miss the creativity of EFS and there is a certain concern that during international periods we could be missing the bulk, but in general I’d take all of that for building a promising young and talented team. As has been mentioned we definitely need a 9. Lawson is a very good defensive scrumhalf, but he isn’t the payer to spark that backline. We need to all get some ball carrying backrow players. Qera is our only player that can regularly get us over the gain line. There is some speculation linking us to Ben Morgan, but I feel that is more down to historic links rather than actual fact, after all he still has a year left on his contract.

This season was always going to be a transitional one for us, but the level of experience the likes of Harden, Burns, Trinder, May and Sharples have received so far will bode very well for us in the future.

There's a real bulge of young English backs coming through.

Gloucester: Have a full backline other than 9 and Ryan Mills and Morgan to sit on the bench.
Quins: Have a full backline other than 10 and Clegg and spare centres and wingers aged u23.
Sarries: Have a full backline, Ransom and Stanley (assuming he's fully recovered)

But then:

LI: Joseph (potentially world class), Homer, Yarde (potentially world class), possibly the latest Armitage, Thompstone and then Tony Watson (the most exciting propect for years?)
Wasps: Simpson, Daly (potentially world class), Wade, with Waldouck also still having potential
Exeter: For last years brilliant England u18 side they supplied the FH, both centres, a winger and a fullback
Sale: Miller, Brady, Addison, Bell, not to mention Thornley and Burrell.
Leicester: Tuilagi and Ford (and obviously Youngs)
Saints: Elliot, maybe Armstrong (although I believe the academy is much improved and this should go up)
Bath: Eastmond, Heathcote, (there's a winger as well, although I've yet to see anything which excites me about him)
Warriers: Short, possibly Benjamin.
Newcastle: Catterick, Hodgson, possibly Fitzpatrick.

If Bristol come up I've liked the look of Tovey and a winger whose name I've forgotten.

Interesting the relative lack of young backs at Tigers and Saints. I wonder if that is in any way related to their poor performance in Europe? I think LI would have done better if JJ and Yarde had been fit.

Interesting the relative lack of young backs at Tigers and Saints.I wonder if that is in any way related to their poor performance in Europe?

Tigers have Flood, Smith and Allen all of whom are 25 which is hardly old and Twelvetrees at 23. Don't think that played a part in their European downfall. Injuries to key personnel and a crap defensive structure were much more in evidence. With Agulla and Alesana Tuilagi it looks like the back three are going to get a makeover but we still need that defence coach.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Interesting the relative lack of young backs at Tigers and Saints.I wonder if that is in any way related to their poor performance in Europe?

Tigers have Flood, Smith and Allen all of whom are 25 which is hardly old

Being slightly pedantic, 25 is also not a really youthful backline either. Clearly, all 3 have a lot of rugby ahead of them and hopefully none of them have already peaked, but Ford is really the only youngster you are giving any game time to.

But I do hear Newcastle have some exciting young backs...

DaveM wrote:Interesting the relative lack of young backs at Tigers and Saints. I wonder if that is in any way related to their poor performance in Europe? I think LI would have done better if JJ and Yarde had been fit.

Tigers have 3 young scrum halves in Youngs, Young and Harrison
Ford ( and Flood whos hardly old) at 10
Still have Twelvetrees at 12, and Allen is still "not as old as youd think"
Tuillagi at 13 is still a baby, Smith still only in his mid twenties
Its only really the wings and fullbacks they have lacked English quality in over the last few years. benjamin should be coming over, but it would be nice to see a wonderkid come through.

Also agree with Sam regarding the European problems. We do lack a strike winger ( se above) but whether hes English or not is pretty irrlevant.
Ive argued elsehwerre that youc an point to the lack of top class FORIEN stars in the premiership ( jumping ship for the better euro rate in Ireland, better wages in France/Japan, or going home to comepete for world cup places) as part of teh reason why all english clubs have struggled in Europe over the last few years. Like it or not the big name trui nations stars amde the english clubs stronger and played a significant part in them previously being more comeptitive in eurpoe.

Whilst there is a lot of decent young English players around with potential not many of these guys really step up in the long run to be more than respectable club players. The English sides are not packed with players who put the shivers down the spines of the top HC sides.

What we have though is a generation coming through who over the next decade have a chance to improve and get English rugby back on track.
That may or may not happen.

but Ford is really the only youngster you are giving any game time to.

I forgot the venerable scrum halfs Youngs, Young and Harrison at 22, 22 and 21 and Manu at 20. The back three could do with an injection of youth I agree but at 9,10,12,13 Tigers are pretty hardly aging (Staunton and Grindal aside, but they are both due to be released come the end of the season).

HongKongCherry wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Interesting the relative lack of young backs at Tigers and Saints.I wonder if that is in any way related to their poor performance in Europe?

Tigers have Flood, Smith and Allen all of whom are 25 which is hardly old

Being slightly pedantic, 25 is also not a really youthful backline either. Clearly, all 3 have a lot of rugby ahead of them and hopefully none of them have already peaked, but Ford is really the only youngster you are giving any game time to.

But I do hear Newcastle have some exciting young backs...

Young enough to make the next two world cups , are we really talking about players who have the potnetial to go into the 2023 torunament?
26 is Young enough to get a young persons rail card too (which means 36 is young enough)

Also Sam Harrison has had a fair bit of gametime ( 21) , Tuilagi would be a starter if fit ( still only 14 or something), and Micky Young started the last game (23 but if he isnt young who is?)

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
26 is Young enough to get a young persons rail card too (which means 36 is young enough)

The best measure of youth I've heard!!

The point is you're not over-flowing in youthful backs. You've got 3 young scrumhalfs (almost by name!), a fly half and a centre. 36 doesn't count as he's ours now! But this isn't an attempt at being overly critical. Gloucester are being lauded for their young backs, but where are our young forwards? Shaun Knight and Tom Savage are really our only prospects. Koree Britton isn't getting any game time. I'm sure Tigers could give a decent number of young uns there.

DaveM wrote:There's a real bulge of young English backs coming through.

Gloucester: Have a full backline other than 9 and Ryan Mills and Morgan to sit on the bench.
Quins: Have a full backline other than 10 and Clegg and spare centres and wingers aged u23.
Sarries: Have a full backline, Ransom and Stanley (assuming he's fully recovered)

But then:

LI: Joseph (potentially world class), Homer, Yarde (potentially world class), possibly the latest Armitage, Thompstone and then Tony Watson (the most exciting propect for years?)
Wasps: Simpson, Daly (potentially world class), Wade, with Waldouck also still having potential
Exeter: For last years brilliant England u18 side they supplied the FH, both centres, a winger and a fullback
Sale: Miller, Brady, Addison, Bell, not to mention Thornley and Burrell.
Leicester: Tuilagi and Ford (and obviously Youngs)
Saints: Elliot, maybe Armstrong (although I believe the academy is much improved and this should go up)
Bath: Eastmond, Heathcote, (there's a winger as well, although I've yet to see anything which excites me about him)
Warriers: Short, possibly Benjamin.
Newcastle: Catterick, Hodgson, possibly Fitzpatrick.

If Bristol come up I've liked the look of Tovey and a winger whose name I've forgotten.

Interesting the relative lack of young backs at Tigers and Saints. I wonder if that is in any way related to their poor performance in Europe? I think LI would have done better if JJ and Yarde had been fit.

And the U18 scrumhalf who was with Irish has now joined Chiefs too

HongKongCherry wrote:

The best measure of youth I've heard!!

The point is you're not over-flowing in youthful backs. You've got 3 young scrumhalfs (almost by name!), a fly half and a centre. 36 doesn't count as he's ours now! But this isn't an attempt at being overly critical. Gloucester are being lauded for their young backs, but where are our young forwards? Shaun Knight and Tom Savage are really our only prospects. Koree Britton isn't getting any game time. I'm sure Tigers could give a decent number of young uns there.

I don't think Tigers have much coming through in the forwards. Maybe Price will develop ok, but the forwards they have bought through in the last couple of years have all been ordinary. Brookes could amount to something, and maybe Youngs, but then what? Players like Harris, Bowers and Armes just aren't good enough.

I've said it before, I think Tigers academy has serious problems and isn't laying down the bedrock of a new squad. Instead it produces someone outstanding about every season and a half, but that's not enough. This means Tigers are reliant on picking up young players developed by other teams.

I predict that when Cockerill leaves one of the the first things the new HC will do is take a long, hard look at the academy. Lack of age group representation should be telling Tigers something.

36 doesn't count as he's ours now!

Not until the end of the season he's not. We've got another Twelvetrees esque IC coming through in the form of Andy Forsyth. He's a few years younger and doesn't have the physical strength of Billy but he is a bit quicker and more elusive. He got game time this season on the wing when injuries took hold during the RWC period and at centre for the opening two HEC matches, unfortunatly he broke his leg in the game vs Ulster and has only just come back to play 1 game in the A League. With his big left boot I wondered whether he might settle at 15 (where he played a bit in the Championship) but with Billy going he might get more chance at 12 depending on who we sign.

Dave,

I agree its been disapointing the number of players we have managed to bring through from the academy to be real first choice first teamers. I think part of the problem is that Tigers always want to keep 2 senior players they know are good enough for every position on the books, so the space for risking the prospects who might be is less.
The lack of age group representation does say something too though yes.

Its an area Exeter have "punched above their weight" in over the last few years. But then Wasps have always had a ton of wonderkids, look at them now.

That's true, but imagine what Wasps could have achieved, or be on the verge of achieving, if they were as well run as Tigers and could have kept a framework of decent players to integrate their young players into.

Lack of age group representation should be telling Tigers something.

Not really. Case in point Tigers inside centres. Matt Cornwall, England under 20 captain and mainstay of the England age group sides for years. Has no caps and last I heard is now playing in Italy and not for Arioni or Treviso. Billy Twelvetrees has had no representation at England age grade level but is now a fixture in the Saxons and has signed a big(ger) money move to Gloucester who have guarenteed him the 12 shirt.

England age representation is not a guarentee of success, just because players show a lot of ability at an early age does not mean they'll be AP and England stars. Certainly it would be nice to have wonder kids coming out of our ears but as PSW points out Wasps have had that for years and how many of their 'revolutionary players' are likely to be playing in the 6N? Probably none unless Webber makes the bench. Tigers academy will be represented by Cole, Croft, Manu (once fit), Youngs and Deacon (if he ever recovers from this new injury).

Wasn't Webber in the Leeds acadamy?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Dave,

I agree its been disapointing the number of players we have managed to bring through from the academy to be real first choice first teamers. I think part of the problem is that Tigers always want to keep 2 senior players they know are good enough for every position on the books, so the space for risking the prospects who might be is less.
The lack of age group representation does say something too though yes.

Its an area Exeter have "punched above their weight" in over the last few years. But then Wasps have always had a ton of wonderkids, look at them now.

Also haven't you got the issue that the Tigers are running right on the salary cap and can't play their academy players too much as this would result in a breach. Teams below the cap can play their academy players as much as they want without fear.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Not really. Case in point Tigers inside centres. Matt Cornwall, England under 20 captain and mainstay of the England age group sides for years.

England age representation is not a guarentee of success, just because players show a lot of ability at an early age does not mean they'll be AP and England stars. Certainly it would be nice to have wonder kids coming out of our ears but as PSW points out Wasps have had that for years and how many of their 'revolutionary players' are likely to be playing in the 6N? Probably none unless Webber makes the bench. Tigers academy will be represented by Cole, Croft, Manu (once fit), Youngs and Deacon (if he ever recovers from this new injury).

I think age-group representation in the last couple of years is a much more powerful predictor of whether you will kick on these days. Billy is really the exception that proves the rule. English rugby has invested huge sums in making sure the right players are identified early and get the focus to allow them to maximise their talent. Look back over the last few JWC squads - the conversion rate to AP, after 2008, is good.

And my point wasn't that Tigers don't produce good players, it's that they don't produce enough decent players who will form the bedrock of the side (some of whom will unexpectedly kick on to International level).

Haskell, Rees, Cipriani and possibly Waldouck would probabaly be playing in the 6 Nations if circumstances hadn't intervened, so I don't think its Wasps players aren't good enough to make a difference. Of the current lot Lindsey, Vunipola, Jones, Launchbury, Daly, and Wade are all within a couple of years of each other, all may play for England but if they don't they should form a core of players to build on once the ownership is sorted. Apparently they have some superb age-groups coming through down the line as well.

That's what Leicester need, and I'm surprised you aren't concerned.

DaveM wrote:That's true, but imagine what Wasps could have achieved, or be on the verge of achieving, if they were as well run as Tigers and could have kept a framework of decent players to integrate their young players into.

Just imagine if Cirpaini hadnt been...well ....Cipriani

formerly known as Sam wrote: Billy Twelvetrees has had no representation at England age grade level but is now a fixture in the Saxons and has signed a big(ger) money move to Gloucester who have guarenteed him the 12 shirt.

A bit of a side point, but just to clairfy this, Glaws have not guaranteed him a starting place. I think we all know that would be a rather foolish thing to promise and someone as canny as Brush, who focuses on work ethic, is simply not going to make that type of promise. What we have promised 36 is that he will only be viewed as a 12. We have more than enough cover at 10 and 13.

HongKongCherry wrote:
What we have promised 36 is that he will only be viewed as a 12.

Why limit him to just a third of his potential?

A bit of a side point, but just to clairfy this, Glaws have not guaranteed him a starting place.

Cockerill reckons they have and he had the news fresh from Billy and the player's agent. Of course should Billy's form drop or should he let his new contract go to his head he will be dropped as is the nature of professional sport.

That's what Leicester need, and I'm surprised you aren't concerned..

There is a concern we're aren't bringing enough players on and into the first team as we used to but we're still getting some gems coming through the academy. This could be because of the academy classification restrictions as mentioned by Hammer above where an academy designated player becomes a first team player if he plays more than so many games in a season. The age grade representation isn't a massive worry as the academy is still getting positive results against good opposition. They are due to play the England under 18s I think this weekend so that will be interesting.

Didnt they beat the Welsh U18s a couple of years ago?

I suppose we have a whole new generation of Tuilagi kids who should be joining soon as well?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

A bit of a side point, but just to clairfy this, Glaws have not guaranteed him a starting place.

Cockerill reckons they have and he had the news fresh from Billy and the player's agent. Of course should Billy's form drop or should he let his new contract go to his head he will be dropped as is the nature of professional sport.

Yes and he didn't come across as sucking a lemon or bitter at all! It is interesting that it is only Cockers who has spoken about this, I thought his behaviour was pretty poor. Gloucester have conducted themselves professionally throughtout this negotiation, but to leak details prior to the official statement lacks professionalism - maybe this shows the amount of pressure he is under at the moment.

Dean Ryan ultimately failed at Glaws as the team spirit broke down, due in large to prima donna players believing they had a right to play. The first thing Brush did was get rid of that culture. So there is absolutely no way we will have promised him a guaranteed starting place, as this goes against everything Brush has been trying to achieve and install. Some of the more active Twitter members of the team (I'm sure you can guess one!) have been asked about this and their response is that 36 has got to get in front of Ryan Mills and Tim Molenaar, the 2 definite 12s with us next season.

Yeah I think Cockerills comments were a bit on teh emotional side, but I dont think the timeing of it helped his mood. Hes clealry feeling the pressure and getting fed up with managment issues ( ie buying selling of players) limiting his side when he wants to be concentrating on the coaching (which needs work too)
Its a problem for the Jeff clubs more than the regions and certainly provinces who have many more tied players, and less worries juggling around a cap.

It may be the way forward for Tigers to get in a DOR, Id love it to be Andy Key.

It is interesting that it is only Cockers who has spoken about this, I thought his behaviour was pretty poor.

Well I don't think he was very happy. Prior to the game the deal had been leaked to the Glaws local media and the Leicestershire media had then grabbed hold of it. By the time Cockerill passed comment it was well known he was on his way. I don't think Cockerill was that pleased by the actions of Billy's agent who had told Cockerill that Billy was intending to sign his new deal on the Monday only to tell him that Billy was leaving on the Wednesday.

Why bother to lie when the information has already been leaked to the papers down in Gloucester? The Leicester fans were going to be on his case because Twelvetrees was leaving less than a month after the club had reported positive progress on contract negociations. This coming so soon after the Ulster game he needed to make a statement and he gave the facts which is after all what we want.

Post match comments;

Cockerill reported that Billy Twelvetrees will be leaving the club for Gloucester at the end of the season:

"On Monday he told me he was staying, on Wednesday I was told by his agent that he was signing for Gloucester, who have assured him of being first choice number 12 for them and his salary has been much improved.

"I did not want to lose him and he will be fully involved until the end of the season."

formerly known as Sam wrote:

It is interesting that it is only Cockers who has spoken about this, I thought his behaviour was pretty poor.

Well I don't think he was very happy. Prior to the game the deal had been leaked to the Glaws local media and the Leicestershire media had then grabbed hold of it. By the time Cockerill passed comment it was well known he was on his way. I don't think Cockerill was that pleased by the actions of Billy's agent who had told Cockerill that Billy was intending to sign his new deal on the Monday only to tell him that Billy was leaving on the Wednesday.

Why bother to lie when the information has already been leaked to the papers down in Gloucester? The Leicester fans were going to be on his case because Twelvetrees was leaving less than a month after the club had reported positive progress on contract negociations. This coming so soon after the Ulster game he needed to make a statement and he gave the facts which is after all what we want.

Post match comments;

Cockerill reported that Billy Twelvetrees will be leaving the club for Gloucester at the end of the season:

"On Monday he told me he was staying, on Wednesday I was told by his agent that he was signing for Gloucester, who have assured him of being first choice number 12 for them and his salary has been much improved.

"I did not want to lose him and he will be fully involved until the end of the season."

I think you must have borrowed my rose tinted spectactles! The story was published in both the Glos & Leics media at the same time, as they are part of the same media group. There has been no suggestion that Glos media broke the story. More importantly you only have Cockers word for the fact that 36 and his agent acted inappropriately, a statement made when he was clearly annoyed and emotional. I would suggest you take his comments with a healthy pinch of salt until other parties, including other Tigers employees, comment on this.

More importantly you only have Cockers word for the fact that 36 and his agent acted inappropriately,

I don't think they acted inappropriatley I think they acted ruthlessly and fair enough his career won't last forever so the opportunity to make money from it will be limited. Which is fair enough, Cockerill will have no doubt been annoyed as he is losing a good player at a time when he needs good PR, he released the information he did because he'll want the fans to know the situation. Remember at Tigers the fans own the club, if they turn on you then you're finished.

I would suggest you take his comments with a healthy pinch of salt until other parties, including other Tigers employees, comment on this..

I doubt very much any other Tigers employee will make a comment, Cockerill had a couple of days to work out what he wanted to say and said it. That will be the Tigers party line. The board will have spoken to him about the expected interview from the press (who were always gonig to ask the question) so I wouldn't expect any other official stories from Welford Rd.

"Billy has played for us in every game he has been available apart from two this season," he told the Leicester Mercury. "We have put three years of development into Billy and he was coming on nicely in our environment.

"If he does not want to stay and fight for his spot, that is disappointing. Scrum-half Micky Young joined us last summer and knew he would have to fight for his spot with Ben Youngs.

"Ed Slater would cut off his arms to play for us on a regular basis, but he battles for a spot with Louis Deacon, Geoff Parling and George Skivington. That is the way it has been for more than 100 years and that is the way it is going to stay. There are world-class players holding tackle bags in training every week."

He also said that, which suggested he was thoroughly narked off with the whole thing. Didnt exactly hold back in saying he felt let down by Twelvetrees decision.
You can totally understand why he wasnt happy, regardless of the actual negotiations.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

He also said that, which suggested he was thoroughly narked off with the whole thing. Didnt exactly hold back in saying he felt let down by Twelvetrees decision.
You can totally understand why he wasnt happy, regardless of the actual negotiations.

I totally agree, no coach is going to be happy to lose a decent player. It propbably smarts more for Cockers as not many people leave Leicester by their own accord!

You see, to come across like that to the press about a young player who's still on your team seems to me to be completely irresponsible.

How is that going to make Billy feel? How's that going to effect the squad as well now? Is 36 even going to get game time now and if not then that'll unsettle the squad even more, he's just causing more of a fuss and probably disrupting the team.

This whole episode just seems a touch badly handled and no matter who's in the right or wrong I think Cockerills responce is poor.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

"Billy has played for us in every game he has been available apart from two this season," he told the Leicester Mercury. "We have put three years of development into Billy and he was coming on nicely in our environment.."

So how much game time would he have if not for Allans injury? Yes he has got a bit of time, but that seems more by luck then by planning.

It's not that he's left of his own accord I'd have thought more that Cockerill didn't expect to be in the market for a 10/12 and having told Staunton he wasn't getting a new deal Cockerill desperately needs to get into the market. I suspect he had other priorities and this has come from the blindside and meant that lots of sums for the salary cap are quickly being redone so that a replacement can be budgeted for and not effect any other deals in the offing.

So how much game time would he have if not for Allans injury? Yes he has got a bit of time, but that seems more by luck then by planning.

Twelvetrees was playing 13 outside Allen at the start of the season and was then playing 12 inside Manu and Smith. Unknown whether he would have gotten ahead of Allen when all were fit and healthy.

Yes. I think Billy facced a choice of going to Gloucester to concentrate on 12, or staying at Tigers and being moved around between 10, 12 and 13 according to Tiger's needs. Cockerill made it quite clear last season that Allen was his first choice 12, Flood is obviously first choice at 10 and Tuilagi at 13. Frankly I'm surprised Billy didn't leave last summer.

Exactly

He's not at Gloucester yet. If they have injury problems do you think they won't play him at 10 or 13? Will he be on the bench if there's a 12 playing better than him and all the other back positions are filled with forwards? No, of course not. I don't doubt they'll look primarily at 12 (as did Leicester I expect). If that's the only position they play him/he'll, regardless of situation, then they're all stupid.

But there's a big difference in standing in a couple of times a season at 10 as opposed to playing as many games at 10 and 13 as at 12. He has the chance to make the 12 shirt his, a chance he wasn't going to get in my opinion at Tigers whilst Cockerill was in charge.

Because he wasn't good enough. If he was good enough he would take the shirt. Tigers have had a lot of injuries at 10 and 13 and have had international players away. Are we saying that Burns and Trinder, et al don't have a chance with England and there won't be injuries. The only difference is that Tuilagi and Flood are current internationals. However Trinder is on the way and Burns (hopefully) won't be far behind.

I wonder if we'll see another Foden.

I'm saying I expect when everyone is available he'll play 12 for Gloucester, whereas Cockerill prefers Allen. I doubt he'll play much at 13, but he'll probably play the odd game at 10. This does depend in part on whether Mills starts to specialise at 10 or 12.

You are only going to have one 13 in the international matchday squad (unless we call May a 13, because I think he's an obvious player to have on the bench for England), so I think Trinder will play most Gloucester games next season when fit.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:
What we have promised 36 is that he will only be viewed as a 12.

Why limit him to just a third of his potential?

That was utterly brilliant

Cockerill did last year. I don't think there was every a game this year when everyone was available so we never found out. Cockerill's strongest 10 is Flood and 13 is Tuilagi. 12 was up for grabs.

Probably right about Trinder but it also depends on Tuilagi being fit. It doesn't take many injuries before the most sensible decision would be to play Twelvetrees at a position other than 12, then what happens?

Then he'll play in other position, probably 10 as I can't see why Gloucester would ever use him at 13. But it would be a temporary move, and if Mills is good at 10 it may never happen.

Cockerill couldn't have made his views clearer last season. After his two appearances at 12 for the Saxons in Feb Twelvetrees had one start at 12 for Tigers for the rest of the season - the draw with Gloucester. Allen just kept being picked......

Billy is going to play 12, and he may find himself at 12 in the autumn internationals as a result.

Because Allen was playing better [EDIT: Allen was playing so well that even Beshocked said either Barritt OR Allen should have been in the world cup squad). This was Twelvetrees' chance to claim his spot. Instead he's give up and moved on to where it'll be 'easier' to get a spot. Not that I blame the guy trying but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not as easy as he thinks it is.