Shingler poetic justice?

First topic message reminder :

Rise through the ranks at the Scarlets
Play for Wales under 20
Do a very nice S4C advert about becoming the next great Welsh 10
Witness the rise of Sir Priestland of Rhys
Change allegiance to Scotland
IRB deems him ineligible
His brother gets selected for Wales

flopspreys wrote:Do a very nice S4C advert about becoming the next great Welsh 10

I'd forgotten about that advert. It really wasn't the smartest thing for him to have agreed to appear in that if he was intending to throw his lot in with Scotland.

munkian wrote:He's suddenly found close emotinal ties to Scotland because they'll cap anyone and Wales don't need him at the moment.

I'm Welsh, my Dad is English, I've always supported Wales, I'm not going to change allegiance all of a sudden

Should we ask the IRB to 'uncap' all previously capped Welsh Players we don't need so Scotalnd can have them ? You can have Tom James by all means.

Who's to say that he never always felt close personal ties to Scotland (do you know the guy personally?). I never said anything about uncapping. What I did say is that the IRB need to tie this off properly, set "locking in" at either U20 or A. Once that is done then clearly define U20's and A as separate teams. Allowing some U20's games to be accredited as A games is what has actually caused this whole issue. Personally, I am far more worried about how this whole issue came about that this individual incident.

Red Right
The rules are already in place and this is why the IRB has said he is ineligible to play for Scotland.
The player I feel sorry for is the overlooked young Scottish lad who from a young age wanted to play for Scotland and only Scotland.

What I did say is that the IRB need to tie this off properly, set "locking in" at either U20 or A. Once that is done then clearly define U20's and A as separate teams. Allowing some U20's games to be accredited as A games is what has actually caused this whole issue. Personally, I am far more worried about how this whole issue came about that this individual incident

Agree fully. The legislation is unclear and open to interpretation at the moment and needs to be clarified and fixed once and for all.

I would love to know what the Scottish posters thought about Shingler before he was announced in the Scottish squad. After all how many of you out there believed he was Scottish qualified? And also being as fair as I can, would you not be rather miffed if one the players who has tied their future to you turned around and said actually I have a Welsh mother. For example if Duncan Weir's mum was Welsh and he said thats it boys sorry but I am welsh.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I would love to know what the Scottish posters thought about Shingler before he was announced in the Scottish squad. After all how many of you out there believed he was Scottish qualified? And also being as fair as I can, would you not be rather miffed if one the players who has tied their future to you turned around and said actually I have a Welsh mother. For example if Duncan Weir's mum was Welsh and he said thats it boys sorry but I am welsh.

Spidey, I had no idea of his Scottish qualifications. I would be upset if, say, wee Duncy followed another root for which he was qualified, but would understand that it is his choice

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I would love to know what the Scottish posters thought about Shingler before he was announced in the Scottish squad. After all how many of you out there believed he was Scottish qualified? And also being as fair as I can, would you not be rather miffed if one the players who has tied their future to you turned around and said actually I have a Welsh mother. For example if Duncan Weir's mum was Welsh and he said thats it boys sorry but I am welsh.

Spidey, I had no idea of his Scottish qualifications. I would be upset if, say, wee Duncy followed another root for which he was qualified, but would understand that it is his choice

Agreed.

Just in passing, it's worth noting that it seems a lot of Welsh fans don't want him in the Welsh squad, it's just that they don't want him to play for Scotland either, even if he wants to, which Shingler says he does. I'm not sure I understand that.

Scottish posters have some talented young centres like Scott, King, Bennett and De Luca to talk about and so whilst SS was an interesting option, I don't think that there are too many crying into their fizzy pop about it.

It's not a case of Wales being the dog that sat on the hay.* The point is that rules are rules.


* - http://www.litscape.com/author/Aesop/The_Dog_in_the_Manger.html

George Carlin
I don't think anybody said they did not want him to play for Wales it's just that there are others better than him at the moment.
With Priestland injured he could well have been called up for this six nations as cover.
And the reason we don't want him to play for Scotland is because the rules say he cant. we need to protect our assets we cant just let other countries walk in and take players that are tied to Wales.

Cymroglan wrote:George Carlin
I don't think anybody said they did not want him to play for Wales it's just that there are others better than him at the moment.
With Priestland injured he could well have been called up for this six nations as cover.
And the reason we don't want him to play for Scotland is because the rules say he cant. we need to protect our assets we cant just let other countries walk in and take players that are tied to Wales.

Ditto

munkian wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:George Carlin
I don't think anybody said they did not want him to play for Wales it's just that there are others better than him at the moment.
With Priestland injured he could well have been called up for this six nations as cover.
And the reason we don't want him to play for Scotland is because the rules say he cant. we need to protect our assets we cant just let other countries walk in and take players that are tied to Wales.

Ditto

Doesn't the title of this thread sum up Welsh feeling on the issue, or am I reading too much into it?

The title of the thread is written by a WUM - he's not an elected ambassador for the Welsh people

ASbo - personally i think that no matter what there will always be a bitter element in any fans of sport. Personally I am more excited about Aaron SHingler being called up to the Welsh squad on his own merrits and I don't really take when happened with his brother into account, and I believe that there are plenty of posters who feel there same.

With Steve Shingler I do believe that most people did see him getting a few welsh caps in the not so distant future. I for one was hoping that he would return to the Scarlets after his stint at London Irish and compete with Priestland for the Scarlets jersey and hopefully push for an international call up. Seeing as he has gone on record when he left saying he was hoping to put down a welsh marker I was rather disappointed in him as a person when he was named in the Scottish squad. Whilst my opinion of him has gone down with the whole mess that happened, I would still like to see him return to the Scarlets when his contract is over. Or if he does feel an affinity to his Scottish routes, maybe going to Edinburgh or Glasgow if that is where he feels at home.

Just to wade in, I think whats been said about the WRU needing to set an example are pretty spot on. We're a small country, and the WRU have invested in him since he was very young to improve him as a rugby player and got him to the point of a regional contract (after he had appeared in an advert for 'the future of welsh rugby' - billboards/posters/internet ads - his face was everywhere). Then, he took a better contract at L.Irish, and then he's picked for Scotlands 6nations squad. Considering that the WRU had lost 2 young players they had invested in not long before this, you cant blame them for being slightly defensive.

Anyone who doesnt see their side of the story is blinkered by romance im afraid.

This whole situation is the lad's fault, not the WRU's or SRU's in any way shape or form, like it or not, thems the facts.

Kinda the SRU's too for not officially checking....

munkian wrote:Kinda the SRU's too for not officially checking....

And the WRU's for having such an ambigious U20 / Wales A setup

also, irony is, if he'd stayed at the scarlets, and fought for his place, hes good enough to have been given plenty of gametime this season and may now be have been in a position to be called up to the welsh squad as cover (performance permitting).

His brother took the approach expected of a pro-player, worked hard, did what he was asked, improved, got more and more gametime, and now hes in the welsh training squad.

and no, neither of their fault, the WRU made it known to the player he'd be stuck with Wales, and its not the SRU's job to check a player is inelligible, the rules state they just have to prove they are elligible to represent that country, Shingler lied (probably at the advice of an agent who told him he'd make more money playing internationally) and now that bad advice has come back to haunt him.

Both the WRU/SRU come out looking silly, but i dont think either should have done anything differently to what they did.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:Kinda the SRU's too for not officially checking....

And the WRU's for having such an ambigious U20 / Wales A setup

All done within the rules and the IRB have confirmed this.

Comfort wrote:also, irony is, if he'd stayed at the scarlets, and fought for his place, hes good enough to have been given plenty of gametime this season and may now be have been in a position to be called up to the welsh squad as cover (performance permitting).

His brother took the approach expected of a pro-player, worked hard, did what he was asked, improved, got more and more gametime, and now hes in the welsh training squad.

He most likely would have been starting fly half for the Scarlets during the RWC, and most likely a bench option (FB/FH) when Steve Jones has been unavailable.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:ASbo - personally i think that no matter what there will always be a bitter element in any fans of sport. Personally I am more excited about Aaron SHingler being called up to the Welsh squad on his own merrits and I don't really take when happened with his brother into account, and I believe that there are plenty of posters who feel there same.

With Steve Shingler I do believe that most people did see him getting a few welsh caps in the not so distant future. I for one was hoping that he would return to the Scarlets after his stint at London Irish and compete with Priestland for the Scarlets jersey and hopefully push for an international call up.

You see? Why couldn't someone have just said that at the start and I would have shut my yapper.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:Kinda the SRU's too for not officially checking....

And the WRU's for having such an ambigious U20 / Wales A setup

That's wrong - the WRU just followed the IRB rules - if the rules are ambigious then thats the IRB's fault and the WRU can't be expected to change them.

Cymroglan wrote:Red Right
The rules are already in place and this is why the IRB has said he is ineligible to play for Scotland.
The player I feel sorry for is the overlooked young Scottish lad who from a young age wanted to play for Scotland and only Scotland.

Cymroglan, true the rules are in place. But in their current guise they are open to challenge. As I said in my post, until the IRB decide to set the "locking in" criteria and then create clear defining lines between competion levels ie U20 is U20 and A is A, and one cannot be the other - there will always be a high risk of the laws being challenged by someone who feels that there is sufficient gain to be made by challenging them.

I don't believe that the law governing this would stand up against a legal challenge if one were ever to be taken (Rugby is now a pro sport and once money is involved this becomes a possibility - I would hope it would never happen but no point in being naive).

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:Kinda the SRU's too for not officially checking....

And the WRU's for having such an ambigious U20 / Wales A setup

That's wrong - the WRU just followed the IRB rules - if the rules are ambigious then thats the IRB's fault and the WRU can't be expected to change them.

Smirnoff,I feel that you are wasting your time with this fella.He despises the WRU,he has not made clear as to why and appears to be just a bitter Scot.

he's training with Scotland as we speak

alive555 wrote:he's training with Scotland as we speak

Crikey!I know the Scots are short of decent players but that seems a tad desperate.

Radge was a very fine hooker in his day, I'll have you know! But seriously Radge does not "despise the WRU", and I can't think of anyone less likely to wear the badge "bitter" with any degree of truth. Quite how this has descended to personal insults is beyond me - says more about you, I'm afraid, Taff :shakesheadandwalksaway:

Actually he's not training only went for a meeting

Relax lol

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Radge was a very fine hooker in his day, I'll have you know! But seriously Radge does not "despise the WRU", and I can't think of anyone less likely to wear the badge "bitter" with any degree of truth. Quite how this has descended to personal insults is beyond me - says more about you, I'm afraid, Taff :shakesheadandwalksaway:

Not sure what personal insults you are refereing to.Radge said in an earlier post the the WRU were "despicable".I asked what they had done wrong and got no response.Get real,mun.

Actually ,I did not ask but expected clarification.I will now ask;what have the WRU done to be called "despicable?".

I don't see why people are getting on the WRU's case. Wales, as with Ireland and Scotland, pick from a small player base. Although all three are likely to have a few quality players at any given time it is unlikely that any will be in a position where they have scores of world class players warming the bench when injuries come about. SS may not be picked but quite a few of the posters on here do seem to think that he wouldn't be too far away if cover was required. Wales do have to protect their interest, if they let SS go without a fight it may well be that the next player to be approched might be the next Adam Jones. This is not just Wales problem but in reality its a potential problem for all of the unions, especially the smaller ones.

Red Right wrote:I don't see why people are getting on the WRU's case. Wales, as with Ireland and Scotland, pick from a small player base. Although all three are likely to have a few quality players at any given time it is unlikely that any will be in a position where they have scores of world class players warming the bench when injuries come about. SS may not be picked but quite a few of the posters on here do seem to think that he wouldn't be too far away if cover was required. Wales do have to protect their interest, if they let SS go without a fight it may well be that the next player to be approched might be the next Adam Jones. This is not just Wales problem but in reality its a potential problem for all of the unions, especially the smaller ones.

Shame our Scottish friends cannot see that.They should stick to Australasia for their poaching.

Parks can be welsh in 2 years.

what a thought

munkian wrote:The title of the thread is written by a WUM - he's not an elected ambassador for the Welsh people

With some of your comments on here, I'd say you weren't either......by a long way.

I didn't claim to be, I was replaying to someone thinking ALL Welsh people now despise Shingler and wish him little or no success.

I would welcome him into the Dragons, we are in need of a fly half

Cymroglan wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

Would you actually care about this if he didnt want to play for Scotland all of a sudden ?

Not really no, but he will never be capped by Wales after this fiasco. This is the lads career we are on about here, and it's a career that will last till he is 35. He doesn't have much time to make his money and is not getting a chance to showcase his talent with Wales at Test level.

Can you blame him for wanting to ply his trade in the country of his mothers birth?

The fact Henson made the squad and he didn't is laughable.

No you cant blame him for that but if that was his desire then he should have let his country of birth know this and he should have made himself unavailable for games that would have tied him in.
If he had said he has no desire to represent Wales or be tied to Wales he would not have been selected.

Erm, isn't that what he did? Shingler's argument was that he told Wales that he did not want to declare for them and refused to sign a declaration committing himself to Wales. He was clear on that from the start and had precedent - plenty of players have played age-grade rugby in the country where they happened to be growing up (e.g. Martin Johnson) and it didn't stop them from playing for a different senior team.

The issue is that Wales changed from having an A team to designating the U20s as their A team, and Shingler didn't appreciate the consequences. It's reasonable to believe that if he had, he wouldn't have played. It's certainly fairly clear that he thought he had opted out and didn't understand that the IRB would regard it as binding. Wales have the letter of the law on their side, but not the spirit.

Poorfour wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

munkian wrote:

Would you actually care about this if he didnt want to play for Scotland all of a sudden ?

Not really no, but he will never be capped by Wales after this fiasco. This is the lads career we are on about here, and it's a career that will last till he is 35. He doesn't have much time to make his money and is not getting a chance to showcase his talent with Wales at Test level.

Can you blame him for wanting to ply his trade in the country of his mothers birth?

The fact Henson made the squad and he didn't is laughable.

No you cant blame him for that but if that was his desire then he should have let his country of birth know this and he should have made himself unavailable for games that would have tied him in.
If he had said he has no desire to represent Wales or be tied to Wales he would not have been selected.

Erm, isn't that what he did? Shingler's argument was that he told Wales that he did not want to declare for them and refused to sign a declaration committing himself to Wales. He was clear on that from the start and had precedent - plenty of players have played age-grade rugby in the country where they happened to be growing up (e.g. Martin Johnson) and it didn't stop them from playing for a different senior team.

The issue is that Wales changed from having an A team to designating the U20s as their A team, and Shingler didn't appreciate the consequences. It's reasonable to believe that if he had, he wouldn't have played. It's certainly fairly clear that he thought he had opted out and didn't understand that the IRB would regard it as binding. Wales have the letter of the law on their side, but not the spirit.

In Law there are no sides,simply "legal" and "illegal".

Poorfour, he was told by the welsh u20 management and staff from the WRU, that whether he signed the form or not, he'd be tied to wales if he played in that game.

After the Loxton/Jarvis debacle the year before, the WRU had made it very clear that they werent going to lose more prospects and ensured they did everything required of them.

It was Shinglers fault he didnt understand the consequences after they were explained to him, and after this he appeared in an advert for 'the future of welsh rugby' - billboards/posters/internet ads - his face was everywhere showing his clear want to play for Wales.

After the rise of Priestland he jumped ship to L.Irish at the promise of more gametime than he was guarenteed at scarlets (ironic now as he'd have been first choice flyhalf for scarlets this season due to the w.cup) and then he was selected for scotland and the rest is history.

The WRU were very very clear with all of the players after Loxton/Jarvis, Shingler got himself into this, anyone blaming the WRU is a very bitter or twisted individual.

Im not a fan of the WRU, I think they're money grabbing bar-stewards, but they're devoid of blame in this.

I wouldn't say Steve Shingler jumped ship after the raise of Priestland. I think to be honest we have plenty of fly halves at the Scarlets, and a heap of them have to play in other positions. Dan Evans, Dan Newton, Jordan Williams, Rhys Priestland have all started at fullback this season dispite being fly halves, and then Aled Thomas and Rhys Jones have both started in the cente (i believe) dispite being fly halves. So I guess it was not as much down to Priestland as much as down to pure competition for shirts.

SS, apologies, you are right, but either way, he wasnt prepared to stay and fight.

Like his brother did, and look at him reaping the rewards of his hard work training with the squad, whilst Steven is in international limbo at the moment.

Its funny, as I was always a lot more excited about the potential of Steven than Aaron!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I actually think the WRU's behaviour regarding Steven Shingler is despicable. If they have no intention of selecting him why create all the fuss about him trying to play for his mother's country?

This is a young man's career they are toying with for no other reason than sour grapes. Let him go play for Scotland if he wants.

Erm maybe because they invested a lot of money on him?
Maybe because they developed him in 2 U20 World Cups, and 2 U20 six nations championships, not to mention the age grade rugby prior to that?

Maybe because WELSH money went into him and we might, just might want some kind of return on backing welsh players?

He's a disloyal prat, and it's a pity the squad space, time, coaching, effort and investment didnt go into someone who was a real Welshman.

Bitter old Derwyn Jones doing everything he can to cause as much trouble in Welsh rugby as usual, he was the idiot who told Loxton and Jarvis to go to Connacht and now does the same to Shingler.
No doubt he will get his claws into that Sampson Scarlets prop next and try and get him signed to an Irish team and drag it all up again.

To be fair to Shingler Comfort - it wasn't so much that he wasn't prepared to fight for his shirt, but he knew that with Priestland rising up and that in the latest a season or 2 he'd be 1st choice, and Jones likely to get less international games (or retire) by the time he was 35, combined with Jordan Williams whose a rising star and will probably soon be challenging for a 1st choice spot - he knew his chances would only come in the odd spots in the season even if he was playing brilliantly.

But the main reason he went was because of the above competition the Scarlets could only offer him a development contract while London Irish offered a decent professional contract and the likelihood of more gametime - to be honest, as much as i'm gutted he's gone, I think he would have been a fool to turn down such an offer

Feck him. The Druids can have him back

Poorfour wrote:The issue is that Wales changed from having an A team to designating the U20s as their A team, and Shingler didn't appreciate the consequences. It's reasonable to believe that if he had, he wouldn't have played. It's certainly fairly clear that he thought he had opted out and didn't understand that the IRB would regard it as binding. Wales have the letter of the law on their side, but not the spirit.

No because this issue had already been covered with the Loxton and Jarvis case the previous year, and the Isca case also comes into it as precendents, the WRU informed Shingler if he played in the Wales U20 Vs France U20 game then Shingler would be tied to Wales, and Shingler decided to play in the game.
It's a bit like having your cake and eating it really.

I don't have any issue with Wales losing Shingler I have listed many players who have more or similar potential as him who are of the same age, the issue I have is the investment that goes into young players and the fact that teams like Ireland and Scotland simply think it's ok to slit your neighbours throat and steal players in this manner.

Personally I think Andy Robinson is holding a grudge every time he comes up against Wales they more often not hand him his backside, regardless of whether he was coaching England or Wales. I have the honest opinion he is just trying to cause trouble and annoy Wales because Scotland have better options than Shingler themselves.