Parlez Vous Francais?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qUxcmH595s&feature=player_embedded

Where there is smoke, there is fire....or is it just a smokescreen?
Or none of the above....


What is going on?

It's not Xmas yet....but thanks for the present again! It's quite funny!

Tenez wrote:It's not Xmas yet....but thanks for the present again! It's quite funny!

I managed to get the gist, so am ow very curious to see what Nadal PR does about it. It's almost like a slap in the face and a second one in a relatively short space of time.

Yes, it's easy to understand the allusion. I am surprised they dared to venture there.

But I am pretty sure that Nadal's PR team would much prefer to address this under the public eye so they are not likely to officially complain about it.

The last thing they want is to have all cameras and journalists reporting the case. Silence is going to be their strategy again.

They coudl not ignore Noah's comments but that clip can easily go under the radar.

Where do people (like the makers of this clip) find the right to insinuate someone using illegal stuff when there's no proof at all?? If you accuse Nadal of PEDS you should as well accuse Djokovic, Federer and Murray. Pathetic clip. Jealous Frogs.

Oh, it's PEDs!

As it was portrayed to be in the 'humorous' side of things I am not sure why it should be taken in a 'serious' context by supporters.

Nadal is clean, so I am not so sure why he would take such a sketch any serious offence.

Very funny clip!

In all seriousness I'm afraid Rafa going to have to put up with this for quite a bit longer. Lance Armstrong has been dealing with similar allegations for years.

Chydremion wrote:Where do people (like the makers of this clip) find the right to insinuate someone using illegal stuff when there's no proof at all?? If you accuse Nadal of PEDS you should as well accuse Djokovic, Federer and Murray. Pathetic clip. Jealous Frogs.

Well, that was meant to be my point of this thread. The insinuation.

If it was me, I'd be quite annoyed and would seek to settle the matter in court. If you've got any proof you come out with it. Having little jabs and digs like this has the opposite effect.

I think it's perfectly fair to able to discuss the different possibilities players have to get to the level of energy those guys are now playing.

Whether Nadal's urine is legal or not is a different matter but it woudl be cretinousto think those guys get it from Orange juice and Weetabix.

In that respect this clip is perfectly fine.

Wen we watch a magician doing some tricks, we dont expect the crowd (bar SA maybe) to believe the guy has real extra terrestrial powers. Same in sport nowadays I am afraid.

Yes Lance is innocent and there is no proof...But no one will make me believe that again he was on something else than orange juice. He and teh sports in general are very much to blame on the fact we can;t take exploits at straight face value nowadays.

It was interesting to see on the THASP website Nadal coming out in support of Contador on twitter saying it was crazy to convict someone without definite proof.
I hope Contador gets banned and stays banned, otherwise the Tour de France is more of a joke than ever.

I am not sure this video is much cop though. It's the kind of things that you can't really ban or stop, but they themselves should know better.

Trivial stuff like this should be ignored by any targetted sportsman or woman who has any sense, and laughed at by those with a skeptical/cynical disposition.

I definitely have a feeling that some of the authorities in Spain can be their own worst enemies. If everyone were completely confident about their openness and that they hold a genuine desire to track down PED use wherever practised and by whomsever without fear or favour there would be much less mileage in this sort of stuff. In common with many national authorities there is a feeling that the Spaniards don't have the cojones to face up to the fact that in order to make that desirable omlette it's possible they'd have to crack the odd sacred egg.

The thing is barry, I am not even sure Spain and it's government and sport regulators know how far their athletes have gone in terms of any form of drug taking. It must be stressed though if and I do mean if someone is found positive for banned substances, it needs to be clear first as to what substance and in what capacity before people jump and down with their accusations.

barrystar totally concur with your viewpoint.

Spitting Image used to make fun of Frank Bruno as a pantomine figure of fun endlessly but probably wouldn't do so now given his mental health issues.

It's a question of where you draw the line. Where people have doubts about you for whatever reason or want to show up a part of you that is widely discussed in the media then to a large extent the sportsperson in question has to ignore it wherever possible.

Is this taking rumours about Nadal too far? It's rather childish but then again it's not going to have much more of an impact that making people laugh at Rafa's expenses. And sometimes that can be the price of success.

One other point.

In the 606 forum days this thread would no doubt have been removed. The fact it hasn't is good for free speech since the you tube clip is there for all to see and frankly discussion about such matters should not be deleted at every turn unless outrageous and libelous comments are being made.

newballs wrote:barrystar totally concur with your viewpoint.

Spitting Image used to make fun of Frank Bruno as a pantomine figure of fun endlessly but probably wouldn't do so now given his mental health issues.

It's a question of where you draw the line. Where people have doubts about you for whatever reason or want to show up a part of you that is widely discussed in the media then to a large extent the sportsperson in question has to ignore it wherever possible.

Is this taking rumours about Nadal too far? It's rather childish but then again it's not going to have much more of an impact that making people laugh at Rafa's expenses. And sometimes that can be the price of success.

But then Bruno is back in panto. Being a sufferer of Mental Illness depending in what context it is made the subject of a sketch, you can be in a position to laugh at it or even with it.

If it becomes a regular theme, I would then would recommend legal proceedings.

legendkillar wrote:The thing is barry, I am not even sure Spain and it's government and sport regulators know how far their athletes have gone in terms of any form of drug taking. It must be stressed though if and I do mean if someone is found positive for banned substances, it needs to be clear first as to what substance and in what capacity before people jump and down with their accusations.

I can't disagree with any of that - my point about many national authorities is not that they know x, y, and z are going on, but that they could look harder. The self-flagellating example of cycling has suggested to many others that the lesson is not to turn over every stone in search of the truth, but to put forward an 'anti-doping' regimen that will persuade sponsors and the public to continue to 'buy' the spectacle in the hope that 'credibility' will remain at least for as long as they are earning a living from the sport.

Contador's case is a good example of the uneasy feeling that a truly rigorous approach and investigation can produce. Overall I don't believe him to be a 'clean' athlete, but I can't feel sure that he was caught cheating this time. Does that mean that we should water down the rule that an athlete should accept 'strict liability' for what is found inside him - not in my view because unfortunately there is no other way if you are remotely serious about combatting PEDS. I remain of the view that many more dopers who are doing it escape than unlucky athletes get 'caught'.

Very good points Barry.

The role the doctors play should be to clarify exactly what it is they are advising athletes to take in the form of treatment and supplements. They need to make them aware of what the subtances contain and what ingredients can be considered illegal despite the size of impact it can have their performances. I think it is also the doctors should bear the brunt of some of the punishment. I mean they are more informed than anyone as to what should not get into an athlete's system.

I do agree that the athlete has to be held liable for any suspensions or bans because they have the choice whether to induce banned substances whether they are aware of it or not. Ignorance is something that shouldn't be given lenience.

Please amuse me Mr Founder YIman, you removed my post and said 90% of my post are attacking posters and i will get banned. Let us make it clear, i don't care about getting banned for giving my honest opinion. There are many forums and i never got banned on an even more credible BBC 606 forum which does tolerate gossiping. What did i said here that attacked a poster? So i supposed this great video link which i just watched now has enriched the knowledge of the forum and provided it with great insight? Please carry on like this and the forum will be known for gossiping rather than a serious tennis forum. May be i'm wasting time on this forum? No? ja606 here i come!

barrystar wrote: I remain of the view that many more dopers who are doing it escape than unlucky athletes get 'caught'.

Well even WADA's directors thinks so and I am sure they know better than us, fans of the game.

Seeing as you want this public when I gave you the courtesy of sending you a private message, yes 90% of your posts are attacking other members. NITB posted an article and you attack her just for posting it. I asked you stop doing it or you will get a ban and you come back with this. Enjoy your time on ja606.

legendkillar wrote:I do agree that the athlete has to be held liable for any suspensions or bans because they have the choice whether to induce banned substances whether they are aware of it or not. Ignorance is something that shouldn't be given lenience.

That is the real question. Imagine, you have worked all your young life reaching a level in the sport you love and suddenly you realise you have reached a plateau cause most other athletes at teh top are doping. DO you give up the sport or do you join the doping race knowing that even the organisation of your sport supports it or at least supports the big names "diet".

That is the main choice an athlete is faced with nowadays. And this is exactly why almost all cyclists and sport professionals were defending Contador this week.

That's how sad the situation is!

Y I Man wrote:..Enjoy your time on ja606.

That's cruel for JA606! SA is the equivalent of a forum torpedo!

Tenez the reality is that the more physical and demanding tennis become on a player's body the more it mirrors endurance athletics. There isn't a great leap in faith then required in visualising many of the doping and drug abuse scandals that have dogged the bulk of endurance sports similarly raising their ugly hear with tennis.

Djokovic has talked at length about his new regime including his gluten free diet. That's the legitimate and positive side but you do wonder how long before allegations start to emerge about top international tennis players. The naive part of me hopes they won't but I'm not holding out too much hope in that regard.

It seems that according to Reuters the Spanish Tennis Federation has decided not to lie down and take this, I suspect that their most substantial complaint in law will be the unauthorised use of their logo. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/02/08/uk-doping-spain-france-idUKTRE8170V120120208

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:I do agree that the athlete has to be held liable for any suspensions or bans because they have the choice whether to induce banned substances whether they are aware of it or not. Ignorance is something that shouldn't be given lenience.

That is the real question. Imagine, you have worked all your young life reaching a level in the sport you love and suddenly you realise you have reached a plateau cause most other athletes at teh top are doping. DO you give up the sport or do you join the doping race knowing that even the organisation of your sport supports it or at least supports the big names "diet".

That is the main choice an athlete is faced with nowadays. And this is exactly why almost all cyclists and sport professionals were defending Contador this week.

That's how sad the situation is!

Given the physical stature of cycling, it would be near on impossible at some stage for any athlete not have some form of supplement. This is no way an accussation. What might have served Lance Armstrong's case would be that after each Tour de France he won, he should've done a test. Take Paula Radcliffe, she tests all the time despite the records she set.

Back to tennis, if we go to whole talent v stamina argument. If there was any suspicion of supplement or substance taking to increase peformance, then I would've expected players like Federer, Haas, Blake to have come forward and say 'something is not quite right here' but I allude to Hewitt and Roddick as prime examples of players that got 'fit' and with age and injuries have seen their careers decline in performances. Both former Slam winners, the temptation is there to break the laws to stay at the top and thus haven't.

NITB could you possibly edit the title to spell "français" correctly?

As for the topic itself, wouldn't take it too seriously, and very surprised the Spanish federation are choosing to make such a big deal of it, as this surely will only result in more controversy. After the way various Spanish figures of authority reacted to Contador's drugs ban, it does seem Spain are getting a little bit paranoid about the whole issue.

From a legal aspect, not too sure the "unacceptable and damaging insinuations" give them much of a leg to stand on, but the use of the emblem probably does.

barrystar interesting link.

I assume then the Federation would be looking to have any you tube footage removed as well.

The East Germans and Chinese had to publicly admit to a systematic program of doping regimens in several sports, Swimming was the most obvious one.

If the Spanish government would follow the US example of the MLB crackdown, it can distance itself from individual sports personalities.

It is sad to see the underlying accusations, despite the comic approach of this specific clip.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:NITB could you possibly edit the title to spell "français" correctly?

As for the topic itself, wouldn't take it too seriously, and very surprised the Spanish federation are choosing to make such a big deal of it, as this surely will only result in more controversy. After the way various Spanish figures of authority reacted to Contador's drugs ban, it does seem Spain are getting a little bit paranoid about the whole issue.

From a legal aspect, not too sure the "unacceptable and damaging insinuations" give them much of a leg to stand on, but the use of the emblem probably does.

Done !

newballs wrote: The naive part of me hopes they won't but I'm not holding out too much hope in that regard.

Remember...The media, sport organisations, athletes and fans alike here in the western world had no problems labelling the RDA and Chinese athletes of cheats..even though we had no proof.

But suddenly when it's turned against "our" athletes some feel outraged.

noleisthebest wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:NITB could you possibly edit the title to spell "français" correctly?

As for the topic itself, wouldn't take it too seriously, and very surprised the Spanish federation are choosing to make such a big deal of it, as this surely will only result in more controversy. After the way various Spanish figures of authority reacted to Contador's drugs ban, it does seem Spain are getting a little bit paranoid about the whole issue.

From a legal aspect, not too sure the "unacceptable and damaging insinuations" give them much of a leg to stand on, but the use of the emblem probably does.

Done !

thanks

Nadal's tweeted reaction to the Contador verdict was thus:

Increible noticia la de contador,no hay pruebas definitivas y le ponen la sanción mas alta...LAMENTABLE...muchos ánimos crack!todo mi apoyo!

.
Roughly translated as,

The Contador news is incredible, there is no definitive evidence and they give him the maximum punishment...LAMENTABLE...keep your spirits up champion! All my support!

.
It all comes down to what you think about strict liability and how to apply it. Nadal is right that there is no definitive evidence - the CAS panel were not saying that Contador was caught red-handed cheating, but that he had failed to discharge the burden on him to prove a pardonable source of the admitted clenbutorol finding.

I disagree with the attitude of Nadal and any others expressing a similar view - the strict liability rule is there for a very good reason and Contador is a bad poster boy anyway having excited the whiff of suspicion during his career including by keeping company with drug cheats from time to time (he clearly gave false testimony, whether clumsily or deliberately, when he said he had always been surrounded by people who reject doping). Furthermore, whilst there is no definitive evidence of how the clenbutorol got there, having read the decision I am happy that Contador's explanation of contaminated meat being the source was fantastical and he could not come up with any remotely likely lawful explanation. Nadal's intervention is unwise in my view.

It's not all bad from a Spanish point of view - the Spanish livestock producers are delighted that their system for policing the ban on feeding clenbutorol to animals has been substantially vindicated.

legendkillar wrote:...Back to tennis, if we go to whole talent v stamina argument. If there was any suspicion of supplement or substance taking to increase peformance, then I would've expected players like Federer, Haas, Blake to have come forward and say 'something is not quite right here' but I allude to Hewitt and Roddick as prime examples of players that got 'fit' and with age and injuries have seen their careers decline in performances. Both former Slam winners, the temptation is there to break the laws to stay at the top and thus haven't.

What can they say? If WADA hasn;t got the proof (and even if they had they are not allowed to release it publicly until approved by the ITF) what can those players say and do? Remember also that tehy share sponsors and so it's even more impossible for them to give away hints, let alone names.

Let's not forget that sport is a business, a show business in fact, before being a sport. That's what the anti-pros were fighting in the 60s and 70s, they had valid points too.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:...Back to tennis, if we go to whole talent v stamina argument. If there was any suspicion of supplement or substance taking to increase peformance, then I would've expected players like Federer, Haas, Blake to have come forward and say 'something is not quite right here' but I allude to Hewitt and Roddick as prime examples of players that got 'fit' and with age and injuries have seen their careers decline in performances. Both former Slam winners, the temptation is there to break the laws to stay at the top and thus haven't.

What can they say? If WADA hasn;t got the proof )and even if they had they are not allowed to release it publicly until approved by the ITF) what can those players say and do? Remember also that tehy share sponsors and so it's even more impossible for them to give away hints, let alone names.

Let's not forget that sport is a business, a show business in fact, before being a sport. That's what the anti-pros were fighting in the 60s and 70s, they had valid points too.

Then that is down to the individual integrity. What do I rate higher priority? Sponsorship or the Creditibility of Tennis?

I agree with what barry says: the "strict liability" rule is very important. I don't like the Spanish reaction to the Contador case: he's been tried by an independent court, found guilty - at best, of negligence, at worst of downright cheating - and been punished accordingly.

Regarding tennis, am I the only one surprised at how very few doping cases there has actually been in the sport. Does tennis not treat drugs as seriously as cycling does, or is there just more to gain from doping in cycling?

But again, it's not only some of us who have suspicions...Listen to Courier, Lendl and Agassi....they can hardly be clearer when describing last AO final.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I agree with what barry says: the "strict liability" rule is very important. I don't like the Spanish reaction to the Contador case: he's been tried by an independent court, found guilty - at best, of negligence, at worst of downright cheating - and been punished accordingly.

If you read my post earlier, ther reaction can only be explained by the fact doping is actually the norm and not the exception. Schleck felt sorry to have nicked the title and teh money cause he knows he is "as innocent" as Contador. And cyclists and Federerations thinks it's poor to pick on one, the winner, cause had they tested the others as heavily they woudl have caught them too.

That's why those guys are upset. The whole system is as rotten as our world economies.

Regarding tennis, am I the only one surprised at how very few doping cases there has actually been in the sport. Does tennis not treat drugs as seriously as cycling does, or is there just more to gain from doping in cycling?

Again, there are 10 times more tests in out of competition cycling than in tennis. tennis anti-doping is a joke.

Tenez wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I agree with what barry says: the "strict liability" rule is very important. I don't like the Spanish reaction to the Contador case: he's been tried by an independent court, found guilty - at best, of negligence, at worst of downright cheating - and been punished accordingly.

If you read my post earlier, ther reaction can only be explained by the fact doping is actually the norm and not the exception. Schleck felt sorry to have nicked the title and teh money cause he knows he is "as innocent" as Contador. And cyclists and Federerations thinks it's poor to pick on one, the winner, cause had they tested the others as heavily they woudl have caught them too.

That's why those guys are upset. The whole system is as rotten as our world economies.

do you think? A lot of people seem to be saying that cycling nowadays is cleaner than ever. Agree with you on tennis, and I was disappointed when Murray had a go at the "whereabouts" regs, surely the top players of any sport have a duty to that sport, and IMO Murray betrayed that with his comments.

Its impossible to do much about unfounded speculation. Nadal is extremely successful. This sort of success often comes with resentment. Often you don't have to dig too deep to expose the reasons for the resentment.

As an example its quite transparent why two of our own posters rub their hands in glee when any dirt is thrown at Nadal. It's just like a "christmas present" isn't it? What they do here is harmless but I have to admit some can and do take their resentment to extremes. Not just snide little video's but I often think of Monica Seles. A tennis morality tale. Unfortunately a true one...

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
do you think? A lot of people seem to be saying that cycling nowadays is cleaner than ever. Agree with you on tennis, and I was disappointed when Murray had a go at the "whereabouts" regs, surely the top players of any sport have a duty to that sport, and IMO Murray betrayed that with his comments.

Cycling is as clean as it can possibly get but I cannot imagine another reason about defending someone guilty of doping. Merckx, Schleck, McQuaid and all involved thought the penalty was too hard simply because they know doping is the norm....not the exception.

Good on you about wanting your preferred player to abide by the rules. I have suspicion for all athletes ...not only the more obvious ones. I loved Coria's game but I never tried to defend his case.

I think you'll find that most anti-doping regimes are designed to preserve the credibility of the sport for money-making purposes. Each sport has to judge to a nicety how much testing it needs to carry out to keep the greenbacks flowing in - too little and nobody believes what they are seeing, too much and you may catch too many competitors so everyone thinks that cheating is rife and you have a problem regaining credibility for a few years during which you make less money - better to let someone else have that problem in the future if possible.

From a personal point of view I have completely stopped following athletics and swimming because I can't be bothered to suspend disbelief for any discipline in either sport, and I don't think that "Brits" are any better than anyone else either.

Cycling took the view that it had such a problem that it has to go for PED's more vigorously than any other sport for understandable reasons. One should not also ignore the background of French fury at failing to produce a Tour de France winner for so long which their press ascribe to nefarious means by foreigners.

Many think the results counter-productive because cycling retains a reputation for being populated with drug takers - but we don't have sight of the 'control' of what people would think of cycling if they had not gotten a bit more aggressive.

Other sports, of which Tennis & Football are paradigm examples, judge that they can get away with less and that's exactly what they do, with astonishing arrogance in my view. Whether or not any particular sport has a 'problem' is judged against the willingness of the paying public to continue suspending disbelief, and not the more murky area of drilling down to what's really going on.

There is no smoke without fire chaps.

Nadal is clean, so I am not so sure why he would take such a sketch any serious offence.

You obviously don't realise how easy it is to hide what you've taken then?

The French have balls I must say!

From The Telegraph


In a statement published on Wednesday, the RFET said it planned to sue Canal+
France for "publishing a video in which, as well as containing
unacceptable and damaging insinuations, the federation's emblem and anagram
were used".



The federation would be demanding that the video is withdrawn, the logo is not
used again and that Canal+ pays damages for its unauthorised use, the
statement added.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/rafaelnadal/9068986/Rafael-Nadal-sketch-on-Canal-prompts-Spanish-Tennis-Federation-to-sue-broadcaster-over-doping-allegations.html

Merging with this:
https://www.606v2.com/t23516-parlez-vous-francais
As it is already covered on that article.

barrystar wrote:
From a personal point of view I have completely stopped following athletics and swimming because I can't be bothered to suspend disbelief for any discipline in either sport, ....

Same here. They used to be great sports...as long as I wasn;t aware of it.

But I am afraid, tennis has reached this stage too. Especially considering the current successful styles. Were they still trying to play short and skilled points, I would not pay too much attention to the physical side. But clearly it's about the last one standing in the final stages and that has clearly killed the game for me. Sure you can still see who makes it easier than the rest but giving purely talented players no chance at all in the later stages is really off putting.

And one wonders whether the ATP/ITF are not surpporting those "diets" as they provide surface and pace conditions which coudl actually favour the physical players. But as long as we'll see standing ovations for 30-shot rallies in a fifth set, then there is little chance to see the sport taking another direction.

Well articulated points barry.

Y I Man wrote:Merging with this:
https://www.606v2.com/t23516-parlez-vous-francais
As it is already covered on that article.

Sigh... This article is throwing the mud. I was attempting to clear it up. I didn't really wan't to be thrown in with the mud!

Seriously bad reply from RFET.

Suing them just tells people you feel guilt.

Y I Man

Also if there is to be only one article on this topic why should it be the one that claims there is "no smoke without fire" rather than the one that puts the side of the wronged party?

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Seriously bad reply from RFET.

Suing them just tells people you feel guilt.

I do sympathise with their logo point - most organisations are very touchy about unauthorised use of logos, and where it is used to say that they condone PEDs even the more so - but as I have said, I suspect that whatever spin is put on it, in the legal proceedings it will be chiefly about logo use.

Edit - there are 10 logos of Spanish Sporting bodies on the video at 57' with the legend, "Spanish 'sportifs' don't win by accident". It will be interesting to see if any others bother joining in.