Parlez Vous Francais?

First topic message reminder :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qUxcmH595s&feature=player_embedded

Where there is smoke, there is fire....or is it just a smokescreen?
Or none of the above....


What is going on?

barrystar wrote:

legendkillar wrote:
One of the laughable things I hear is 'it's not real'

The injuries are very real.

Steve Austin another who retired early due fragments from a broken neck in the ring which lead to his C3 C4 vertebrae being blown out.

Darren Dozdov who was paralysed by a running powerbomb that went wrong in the ring.

The risks and injuries are very real. Yes it is choreographed, but that is something that is not denied.

The whole 'fake' tag is rather an ignorance which is rather inaccurate.

Ballet is very real, and this shows that injuries sustained in Ballet are very real too - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/10/001012074634.htm. Where ballet and its dancers have my unenduring respect and WWE or WWF or whatever the bull***** is called is worthy of nothing but total and utter derision is that ballet presents itself as what it is no more no less but WWE (unless it is dripping with well-concealed irony) puts up a tragicomic pretence at being associated with something that it quite patently has nothing in common with, namely competitive sport.

Whether you like it or hate it is Sports Entertainment. Wrestling is a sport. So there is no lying. Ballet is an art for confused teenager. To attempt to deny the 'realism' with the facts I provided is slightly retarded. Tennis Exhibitions deserve the same title as it is not 'competitive'

Rafa arguing in favour FOR Contador after clearly abusing the WADA regulations tells us all we need to know.

Little arrogant clown.

Y I Man, it's not an anti-PED policy though. I doubt they even test for them. It's an anti recreational drug policy. The whole thing sounds good but there are no guarantees in it, this is a professional organisation trying to convince people that they are a credible 'sport'. A tenuous anti-doping policy is all part of that.

LK: Ok, it's sports entertainment, but that doesn't make it a sport. Yep, wrestling is a sport, but not the kind of wrestling we're talking about. Rocky is sports entertainment.

These seem like set answers to a question I know you've been asked a million times (I do sympathise with you on this one).

Your dismissal of ballet is rather strange though.

it's not an anti-PED policy though. I doubt they even test for them.

Do they or not? You dont appear to be sure on it.

The difficulty lots of sports lovers have with professional wrestling is that it's highly choreographed and the outcome rigged. Does that make it unworthy of being called a sport?

Depends what your definition of a sport is. It's like all tennis matches just being exhibition ones though. 100% entertainment but no genuine story or soul to the activity where the result is not determined by skill or chance. On a related point that's why the sport of sumo in Japan has been open to ridicule with lots of corruption and mafia involvement tainting what was supposed to be a pure martial art.

Sport in general loses in its innocence when corruption and/or drug taking get involved.

Why is my dismissing of Ballet strange?

I don't like it.

It's an art.

Not a sport.

djlovesyou wrote:
He's not doing EPO, so it's unlikely that he can be caught (unless caught in the act.)

How do you know? It woudl be handy if wanted to last a full 6 hours match.

legendkillar wrote:Why is my dismissing of Ballet strange?

I don't like it.

It's an art.

Not a sport.

It's the same as wrestling though. Wrestlers are essentially dancing with each other and then one is declared the winner at the end of the routine.

I don't doubt that they're very athletic people (in ballet and wrestling) but a sport has to be competitive. (this is fundamental in something being a sport.)

Y I Man wrote:

it's not an anti-PED policy though. I doubt they even test for them.

Do they or not? You dont appear to be sure on it.

I don't follow WWF. Well last time I saw a wresling fight was on B&W small cathodic screen and I was very young...but has anyone got caught doping in WWF? I very much doubt.

How do you know? It woudl be handy if wanted to last a full 6 hours match.

He did have Friday and Saturday off though, even pot-belly Roddick played near 5 hours vs El Aynaoui and won it.

Tenez wrote:

djlovesyou wrote:
He's not doing EPO, so it's unlikely that he can be caught (unless caught in the act.)

How do you know? It woudl be handy if wanted to last a full 6 hours match.

Fuentes was never really involved in EPO (at least not at the time of Puerto). When you've got a decent backing behind you, the autologous blood transfusion is a much better option for increasing hematocrit.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:

How do you know? It woudl be handy if wanted to last a full 6 hours match.

He did have Friday and Saturday off though, even pot-belly Roddick played near 5 hours vs El Aynaoui and won it.

Not to mention he barely did anything in 3rd set, so it was really a 4 set marathon.

legendkillar

If tennis is the 800m ballet is the marathon. In addition to that ballet is an art. Only occassioally can tennis claim to be an art...

The french video was made by so called "comedians" attempting to get a laugh. The cheap sort at someone elses expense. They would also like the idea of all the publicity they are getting. Why are so many assuming that they have inside information on drug taking in sport or for that matter even care about drug taking in sport?

We need to define sport - at it's heart is a competition between players involving a greater or lesser degree of physical commitment (darts, snooker?) with an unpredictable outcome because the competitors are trying to outdo one another (rythmnic gymnastics...). The essential element is competition.

There's a world of difference between exhibition tennis and WWE.

The latter is choreographed - it is the 'pinnacle' of what those guys train for and the competitive element has to be taken out of because if they allowed unpredictability or did those moves with real intent they'd be killed or paralysed within seconds - as it is they take risks because the nature of such moves is that they can go wrong however carefully pre-planned. It's extraordinarily skilful, it involves athleticism and ability to wrestle as well as showmanship, but it's not a sport at all because it lacks the essential lifeblood of competition. It's a display, a pageant - like cirque de soleil or whatever, but it can't help promoting the ludicrous falsehood of being connected with sporting competition with paraphenalia such as champion's belts, referees, drug policies, and pathetic confrontational antics. When confronted with that reality it's participants and supporters can't look you in the eye and say, yes, it's a carefully choreographed show.

An exhibition tennis match is not choreographed and it's very much not the 'pinnacle' of what tennis players train for - there's not one ounce of falsity involved.

Tenez wrote:

Y I Man wrote:

it's not an anti-PED policy though. I doubt they even test for them.

Do they or not? You dont appear to be sure on it.

I don't follow WWF. Well last time I saw a wresling fight was on B&W small cathodic screen and I was very young...but has anyone got caught doping in WWF? I very much doubt.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/top-wwe-names-emerge-doping-scandal-article-1.241222

Am actually surprised they targeted Nadal after losing the death match, they should have made such a video after his '09 AO win. Kicking someone when they're down is not cool unless they name themselves Simple_Analyst.

The french video was made by so called "comedians" attempting to get a laugh. The cheap sort at someone elses expense. They would also like the idea of all the publicity they are getting. Why are so many assuming that they have inside information on drug taking in sport or for that matter even care about drug taking in sport?[/quote]

Not sure anyone's assuming that they have such "inside information"

Yes it's a cheap laugh at Nadal's expense plus that of all the Spanish associations listed in the clip at the end but I guess the reason it got some laughs was the very one which makes certain people sceptical about the integrity of particular sport performances. It was a cheapshot at rather an easy target something I guess many of us are guilty of sometimes.

That just goes to prove the point even further though.

They weren't busted by this WWE drug policy, they were busted by the police. They didn't fail any drug tests.

This is similar to the BALCO situation or even Operacion Puerto itself. No failed tests, just an investigation by independant authorities into illegal behaviour. (in this case steroid and painkiller trafficking.)

All it proves is that WWE take a lot of drugs, but don't test positive for them. (like tennis?)

Y I Man wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Y I Man wrote:

it's not an anti-PED policy though. I doubt they even test for them.

Do they or not? You dont appear to be sure on it.

I don't follow WWF. Well last time I saw a wresling fight was on B&W small cathodic screen and I was very young...but has anyone got caught doping in WWF? I very much doubt.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/top-wwe-names-emerge-doping-scandal-article-1.241222

Yup - it's 100% faux isn't it?

WWE is a "wrestling conglomerate" which has a "wellness policy" and relies upon outside assitance from the DA who reports to it when it's performers are involved in criminal internet drug distribution resulting in their 'suspension'.

In a 'sport' the 'governing body' would be finding out about such easily testable steroids as this article refers to with tests and banning those with positives. Any sport whose participants looked like the muscled boobies who do WWE would know it had a problem and get in amongst them.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:

How do you know? It woudl be handy if wanted to last a full 6 hours match.

He did have Friday and Saturday off though, even pot-belly Roddick played near 5 hours vs El Aynaoui and won it.

Yes but throwing aces and having short rallies has nothing to with running miles like sprints with Djoko.

Hello



Oh minions...

I would like to congratulate YI Man and Laverfan for allowing a sensible discussion of PED use in professional sport over the last few weeks.

Such a subject would have been immediately withdrawn under the old draconian policies of 606.

Potential discipleship awaits you both. Ye may rejoice.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallelujah.



emancipator - intergalactic drug tsar

djlovesyou wrote:That just goes to prove the point even further though.

They weren't busted by this WWE drug policy, they were busted by the police. They didn't fail any drug tests.

This is similar to the BALCO situation or even Operacion Puerto itself. No failed tests, just an investigation by independant authorities into illegal behaviour. (in this case steroid and painkiller trafficking.)

All it proves is that WWE take a lot of drugs, but don't test positive for them. (like tennis?)

Exactly...same with Odesnik.....which makes Toni's comment about the impossibilty of cheating even more laughable....Though it's not funny how rotten the system is.

djlovesyou wrote:That just goes to prove the point even further though.

They weren't busted by this WWE drug policy, they were busted by the police. They didn't fail any drug tests.

This is similar to the BALCO situation or even Operacion Puerto itself. No failed tests, just an investigation by independant authorities into illegal behaviour. (in this case steroid and painkiller trafficking.)

All it proves is that WWE take a lot of drugs, but don't test positive for them. (like tennis?)

So they get suspended for nothing?
http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/evan-bourne-suspended
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/wrestling/blog/2011/07/wwe_star_sin_cara_suspended_for_wellness_policy_violation.html
http://www.pinfallmagazine.com/2011/11/r-truth-suspended-by-wwe-for-wellness-policy-violation/
http://www.wrestlingnewsarena.com/2011/10/heath-slater-suspended-for-a-wellness-policy-violation/

emancipator wrote:
I would like to congratulate YI Man and Laverfan for allowing a sensible discussion of PED use in professional sport over the last few weeks.

I second that - thanks to both of them.

Y I Man wrote:

djlovesyou wrote:That just goes to prove the point even further though.

They weren't busted by this WWE drug policy, they were busted by the police. They didn't fail any drug tests.

This is similar to the BALCO situation or even Operacion Puerto itself. No failed tests, just an investigation by independant authorities into illegal behaviour. (in this case steroid and painkiller trafficking.)

All it proves is that WWE take a lot of drugs, but don't test positive for them. (like tennis?)

So they get suspended for nothing?
http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/evan-bourne-suspended
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/wrestling/blog/2011/07/wwe_star_sin_cara_suspended_for_wellness_policy_violation.html
http://www.pinfallmagazine.com/2011/11/r-truth-suspended-by-wwe-for-wellness-policy-violation/
http://www.wrestlingnewsarena.com/2011/10/heath-slater-suspended-for-a-wellness-policy-violation/

Come on YI Man - 30 day suspensions for breach of a wellness policy! Since when would any "sport" with a policy like that have one ounce of credibility. Do WWE operate under the auspices of WADA?

They get a 30 day suspension for first violation, 60 days for the 2nd, and sacked on the 3rd.

The problem being, these 'wrestlers' make the company a ton of money.

They don't even release what substance they were done for.

Would be nearly all recreational.

Y I Man wrote:They get a 30 day suspension for first violation, 60 days for the 2nd, and sacked on the 3rd.

The problem being, these 'wrestlers' make the company a ton of money.

Absolutely - and it seems to be the case that plenty of governing bodies of real sports let such thoughts conflict their actions in the PED sphere.

Look at Rio Ferdinand. He missed a test and received a 8 month ban. Should he have been sacked from Utd?

Failing the tests is one thing, but what should the punishment be?

Failing the tests is one thing, but what should the punishment be?

Worse punishment of all: Watch a Murray v Ferrer match!

Rio deserved a 2 year ban for his offence.

He literally ran away from the tester. That's an admission of guilt in terms of doping offences.

The British shot putters got 2 year bans for refusing to give samples because they didn't like the toilets they had to give the samples in.

Y I Man wrote:Look at Rio Ferdinand. He failed a test and received a 8 month ban. Should he have been sacked from Utd?

Failing the tests is one thing, but what should the punishment be?

Man Utd are not the governing body - they were entitled to do what they wanted with their prize asset and wanted the punishment as low as possible - you can hardly equate Man Utd with the WWE who would be the 'governing body' where their activities a genuine sport.

I thought that Rio Ferdinand was damn lucky. On the reports I read not only did he have no excuse for failing to attend, there were suggestions that his motives for non-attendance might have been worthy of suspicion, but ultimately I did not read the decision. I doubt he would have received such lenient treatment had he been an athlete, a swimmer, or a cyclist

Do you think a world wide governing body that controls all sports is needed? Or should each sport carry on with their own methods? Its not right that an athlete, swimmer, cyclist etc would get a worse punishment.

The conversation is morphing a bit - you can't have a worldwide body controlling all sports because they are so different in so many different ways.

There is a world-wide anti-PED authority, WADA but they only get their teeth in to sports that consent to their involvement - e.g. Golf is coming under their auspices for the first time because it needs to if it wants to become an Olympic sport. I stand to be corrected, but I don't think that NFL, MLB, or NBA operate under WADA.

It's a bit symbiotic because football is sufficiently strong on its own to put up two fingers at WADA, withdraw from the Olympics and do its own thing so I guess that's one reason why the can treat their players less aggressively. Athletics can't get away with that because their balance of credibility/wealth and power is more fragile.

barrystar the reality is that athletics is all "Olympics driven".

Golf, football, tennis, basketball...etc is just highly paid individuals taking part unless you exclude the professionals in the first place. They walk away from it at the end of the day getting big fat cheques from their "day jobs" regardless of their performance there.win or lose. Athletes don't have that luxury unless they earn it on the Olympic stage in the first place.

barrystar wrote:

emancipator wrote:
I would like to congratulate YI Man and Laverfan for allowing a sensible discussion of PED use in professional sport over the last few weeks.

I second that - thanks to both of them.

Doping in wrestling was never going to be controversial though, was it?

...and the reality is the olympics is more about politics than sport.

At the end of the day I agree there is a bit of WWF in all sports.

The breaking of the 20s rule is a perfect example of how a sport stops to be a sport but a show.

And yes the anti-doping system looks a bit more serious than the WWF but frankly...only a tiny bit more.

Looks like this one is going to run and run...

According to US Today : "Jose Ignacio Wert, Spain's most senior sport figure as the minister for Education, Culture and Sport, said Thursday that Canal Plus' satirical skit saying that Spanish athletes "don't win by chance" was both "intolerable" and "unsportsmanlike"."

Don't know if this one was already posted but it doesn't look like the French are going to apologise


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBAck5xQQ30&feature=player_embedded

"The only thing that's not doped in Spain is their economy" Translation of the last sentence by teh journalist in the clip above.

That's mean cause no one in Europe or in teh US can take the p@ss of each other economies.

newballs wrote:Looks like this one is going to run and run...

According to US Today : "Jose Ignacio Wert, Spain's most senior sport figure as the minister for Education, Culture and Sport, said Thursday that Canal Plus' satirical skit saying that Spanish athletes "don't win by chance" was both "intolerable" and "unsportsmanlike"."

Thats rather rich coming from someone protecting Nadal

Veejay nobody wins by chance anyway. It's all down to hard work or (failing that) divine providence (if you believe in that kind of thing)

So nobody cheats in sport newballs?

djlovesyou I was referring to the various routes open to a winner.

Cheating was quite low on my list because ultimately you are only cheating yourself and, unless you were good enough to have won anyway (so why cheat?) then you'll be found out anyway.

Of course if everyone else is cheating then maybe you've got no choice but I'd like to think there are lots of true champions out there who didn't need to resort to cheating. Wishful thinking? Maybe.
.

I don't think everyone is cheating in tennis at all. I feel the risks outweigh the potential gain for most people.

But I'm with the French on this one. When we see a successful sporting Spaniard, I immediately can't help being cynical.

When I see a successful sporting Spaniard who's already been implicated in a big scandal, I'm left in little doubt.

newballs wrote:Veejay nobody wins by chance anyway. It's all down to hard work or (failing that) divine providence (if you believe in that kind of thing)

I wasn't even referring to Nadal and cheating or doping,I was pointing out that when Nadal is in the conversation,accusing someone of being "unsportsmanlike" is really the last thing you can do
Nadal is the poorest sport in the game at present,who shows poor sportsmanship at almost every tournament

The youtube clip in the OP has been pulled.

Y I Man wrote:The youtube clip in the OP has been pulled.

he,he,that makes it even more interesting....shall I try and dig out another one?

Yep. It did not last long. Interesting whether they leave teh second clip or not. The second one doesn;t have the logo so it will help us understand who withdrew what.