Lancaster: 'England won't play like the Saracens'

That in essence was the claim.

Despite low-key away wins, I can't for the life of me see anything but a Saracens' style - grim and curmudgeonly. That's it. That summarises the Lancaster philosophy so far.

I'd agree that the Murrayfield game-plan should have been based on a 'don't lose' fundamental precept.

But I'd expected a lot more in Rome and was deeply disappointed. A terrible game.

Frankly I still wonder why Martin Johnson was sacked (how many RWC manager/coaches have won the RWC on their first attempt since 1987?)

Portnoy wrote:
Frankly I still wonder why Martin Johnson was sacked

Johnson was sacked because a few of his more idiotic lippy players went to New Zealand to parhhhhie!!!!! instead of going to make household names for themselves as players. They killed a big opportunity for themselves stone dead and killed their overly-trusting coach in the process. Nice bunch of playboys.

Just about sums it up Fly.

Secret Fly but at least under Johnno they looked capable of playing rugby. Under Lancaster they look afraid of the ball and play badly for territory or a truely rubbish forwards game. We are currently massively under performing and only got away with wins from the last two games thanks to charge downs. At least in last years 6N we looked capable of scoring tries!!!

SecretFly wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
Frankly I still wonder why Martin Johnson was sacked

Johnson was sacked because a few of his more idiotic lippy players went to New Zealand to parhhhhie!!!!! instead of going to make household names for themselves as players. They killed a big opportunity for themselves stone dead and killed their overly-trusting coach in the process. Nice bunch of playboys.

I'd agree with all that. For different reasons SCW effed up the 1999
finals. But second time around he'd learned an entirely different lesson.

Hhhmmm. As an Irishman i would take two wins from two away games against Scotland and Italy, neither of whom are a pushover at all. You play the team and the conditions and frankly, i think that Lancaster has done just that and should get a bit of respect. Give me a win over flashy rugby anyday.

Given the circumstances I think Lancaster is doing everything that’s expected of him. He’s only a caretaker so starting off with a 4 year plan is no use to him, he won’t be around to implement it (probably). He’s tempered the attitude of certain players, he’s sorted out the off field stuff and he’s got 2 wins from 2. Can’t ask much more. If he was an irish manager he would have to say something like “we won’t be playing the Leinster/Munster/Ulster (delete as appropriate) style, we’ll have to play and Ireland style”, so I can understand his comments about Sarries, but at the end of the day he’s winning, and that’s all he’s asked to do.

Portnoy is upset by Lancaster?

What a surprise! Maybe if your Leicester boy, Youngs didn't play so badly England might have performed better in both matches?

At least Saracens and England are winning.

Leicester fan questions why ex Leicester player was sacked.

Oh and another point portnoy you can't moan about call ups any more.

Sam Lancaster has been hamstrung by injuries to his first and 2nd choice outside centres and other injuries. Hasn't done to badly in the circumstances.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Secret Fly but at least under Johnno they looked capable of playing rugby. Under Lancaster they look afraid of the ball and play badly for territory or a truely rubbish forwards game. We are currently massively under performing and only got away with wins from the last two games thanks to charge downs. At least in last years 6N we looked capable of scoring tries!!!

I'm not blaming Johnson for a thing regarding that fiasco at the WC. He's not my favourite humanbeing in the world but he was proving himself to be getting on with the job and England were improving. But he made the error of thinking he was taking a squad of mature men (and that's what they supposedly were - they weren't kids. They were men) and he gave them the freedoms you give men and got burned by them when they acted like teens on a stag-night.

I don't blame him at all and I say if I were English I'd have wanted others to be punished and him to retain his job.

eirebilly wrote:Hhhmmm. As an Irishman i would take two wins from two away games against Scotland and Italy, neither of whom are a pushover at all. You play the team and the conditions and frankly, i think that Lancaster has done just that and should get a bit of respect. Give me a win over flashy rugby anyday.

So nice to hear that from someone, especially an Irish fan! I think a lot of fans were expecting a complete improvement straight away following the overhaul of the squad. Two wins is fine, regardless of the type of game we played. From hearing Lancaster in interviews, I think he is the right man for the job. He's grounded, level headed and has a true love for the game. Up until now, I personally think he's been conservative in his game plans, choosing the ugly win over an exciting game, just to bump up his CV for when he applies for the full time role. Wouldn't be surprised to see a slightly different team play against Wales in terms of tactics.

On Lancaster...playing well within yourself as a side and still winning (reasonably comfortably in each game against Scotland and Italy) well, I'd hold my opinions back for a while. I think they have at least another gear if not two when the mood and the competition requires it of them.

It's getting serious now - from here on in is the time to start rating Lancaster - or not.

England have won 2 games without showing anything. You just know that there is an extra gear to go up for them.

After watching a few of Mr Lancasters interviews, he does strike me as a really nice guy as well, a guy you want to wish well.

eirebilly wrote:
After watching a few of Mr Lancasters interviews, he does strike me as a really nice guy as well, a guy you want to wish well.

I second that. That's the first thought that came into my head when I first heard him interviewed. A nice man. If he creates a team in his image but gives them bite on the field, then he might even rise the cloud of 'everybody hates us' from the shoulders of the English side.

Another point - the conditions in Scotland and Italy were awful. The state of the pitch in Italy was particularly poor. Hardly the conditions for free flowing running rugby.

You only have to look at the improvements he's already made to the squad in terms of their mental strength, grit, determination, and sense of team spirit to understand that he has a lot of potential, and just needs a little time for his knowledge of the game to transpire onto the pitch. As a spectator, I already feel as if our squad leave the pitch having given everything, and understand that wearing the rose should not be taken for granted.

That's a feeling that i've really missed the last few years.

bluestonevedder wrote:You only have to look at the improvements he's already made to the squad in terms of their mental strength, grid, determination, and sense of team spirit to understand that he has a lot of potential, and just needs a little time for his knowledge of the game to transpire onto the pitch. As a spectator, I already feel as if our squad leave the pitch having given everything, and understand that wearing the rose should not be taken for granted.

That's a feeling that i've really missed the last few years.

+1. He has done well with his zero tolerance approach and the team do seem to respond to his authority better than they did to MJ.

A good finish in this 6N then i would hope that he be kept on and given the full running of the team.

I don't think any team could play "flash" rugby with the weather conditions as they were for both Englands games. Saw a lot more attacking rugby from Italy and Scotland in their other games, so I think it's fair to assume the weather was a factor.
In the Italy game having possession seemed to be a liability for both sides!
Lancaster's choice of back-line so far (limited as it has been by injury) has definitely been more defence-minded, and sensibly so IMO.
However, with - hopefully- better conditions at Twickenham, and the return of Tuilagi and possibly Flood we will have a far better opportunity to see if England have an attack.
I would also say that Youngs needs a rest. He's not firing. His head isn't in the game. The ball rolled out of rucks at least twice on the weekend without him even noticing. Good player, but needs a break I think.

What a surprise! Maybe if your Leicester boy, Youngs didn't play so badly England might have performed better in both matches?

Good old mantry of in doubt blame Leicester. The embarrassingly one dimensional tactics, lack of kicking game plan, lack of any back line threat and coherent forward attack must all be down to Ben Youngs not being on form. Lancaster is asking Youngs to play a conservative and defensive game plan, which if you've got Ben Youngs is a complete waste. He can't do it (first half of the Italian game being a prime example) so why bother picking him? You either play with some kind of attacking game plan and include Youngs or you continue the defensive kick the ball away as soon as possible affair and release him back to Tigers. Got to be one or the other.

At the minute Lancaster and Farrell Senior look badly out of their depth. Sadly it's true they aren't play like Sarries, Sarries may be dull but they are clever in their play. They kick selectively and to apply pressure, they carefully build their forwards attacks to draw in the opposition defence and then actually use backs moves to change the point of attack. All of which is carefully orchastrated so that 99% of the time they have numbers in support to make sure it works, they hunt as a pack. Clearly Farrell doesn't have a lot to do with the coaching at Sarries because they certainly don't play the terrible incoherent stuff he and Lancaster have dreamed up.

formerly known as Sam wrote:At the minute Lancaster and Farrell Senior look badly out of their depth.

+1

England need someone with experience coaching at the highest level, and dealing with the pressure that comes with that. Lancaster doesn't fit the bill.

He had an excellent record with the Saxons, so I think he's earned a little more time than 2 games!

So how do you get experience coaching at a senior level?
Um, how about by coaching at a senior level?

What strikes me is that so far England have played the two ‘weakest’ teams in the 6N and have failed to ‘engineer’ a try scoring opportunity in 160 mins. Relying on Hodgson to pick up charge-down tries are not engineered, they are luck and have probably saved England’s bacon twice now.

OK, the conditions weren’t conducive to a feast of running rugby but seriously, the lack of ability to play with the ball in a positive way is striking and it probably reflective of English Rugby as a whole.

On the positive side – Owen Farrell. Hasn’t shown too much of an attacking side as yet but what a cool calm temperament this kid has. Fast forward 12 months and you can get rid of Hodgson or Flood and let this boy run the ship.

The Saxons coaching job doesn't come with the same expectations, or the same pressure, as even coaching in the premiership in my opinion (not that i have done either myself! ). Aside from that, Lancaster's experience is limited to 2 years at Leeds, 4 years ago. He wouldn't be in the frame, or anywhere near the frame, if he hadn't been in the right place to get the interim job.

The Johnson regime failed because the RFU hired a guy with no experience on the grounds that he could learn on the job. I'm just afraid that they'll make the same mistake again.

He had an excellent record with the Saxons, so I think he's earned a little more time than 2 games! .

He has until the end of the 6N to stake a claim for the job full time. Currently he is falling well short of expectations and that is frustrating. I don't think anyone has suggested replacing him but criticism after performances like the two we've just had should be expected.

On the positive side – Owen Farrell. Hasn’t shown too much of an attacking side as yet but what a cool calm temperament this kid has. Fast forward 12 months and you can get rid of Hodgson or Flood and let this boy run the ship

He is ice cold under pressure but has no hint of top class attacking skill at the moment. He can kick from hand and from the tee and he can tackle but when it comes to the ball in hand stuff there's just no magic or ability to read a defence. 12 months? Only if there's significant improvement.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

What a surprise! Maybe if your Leicester boy, Youngs didn't play so badly England might have performed better in both matches?

Good old mantry of in doubt blame Leicester. The embarrassingly one dimensional tactics, lack of kicking game plan, lack of any back line threat and coherent forward attack must all be down to Ben Youngs not being on form. Lancaster is asking Youngs to play a conservative and defensive game plan, which if you've got Ben Youngs is a complete waste. He can't do it (first half of the Italian game being a prime example) so why bother picking him? You either play with some kind of attacking game plan and include Youngs or you continue the defensive kick the ball away as soon as possible affair and release him back to Tigers. Got to be one or the other.

At the minute Lancaster and Farrell Senior look badly out of their depth. Sadly it's true they aren't play like Sarries, Sarries may be dull but they are clever in their play. They kick selectively and to apply pressure, they carefully build their forwards attacks to draw in the opposition defence and then actually use backs moves to change the point of attack. All of which is carefully orchastrated so that 99% of the time they have numbers in support to make sure it works, they hunt as a pack. Clearly Farrell doesn't have a lot to do with the coaching at Sarries because they certainly don't play the terrible incoherent stuff he and Lancaster have dreamed up.

Sam your Leicester colleague Portnoy is pointing the finger at Saracens. Only fair I do the same.Youngs has been in awful form for England since his cameo against Argentina. Foden was just as bad on the day but he has been a lot more consistent overall.

England has been stodgy in attack with Youngs at scrum half, England looked better when Dickson came on.

Youngs should be sent back to his club to gain confidence - even if it means he'll face my side. Youngs is a good player, low on confidence and form.

Can the knives please wait until after the England vs Wales game?

Oh and Sam I can praise some of the Leicester guys too - Cole has been playing well. Parling's cameos have been pretty good.

Sam your Leicester colleague Portnoy is pointing the finger at Saracens. Only fair I do the same.Youngs has been in awful form for England since his cameo against Argentina.

He did come home from the RWC to be told by his clubs health team that he should have never been playing in the first place and then spent almost month on the sidelines. As I've said above this style of rugby just doesn't work with Youngs at 9, he is a creative and attacking player and currently England show no interest in creation or running the ball. Hodgson either spins it straight to Farrell who pops it to a winger for a crash ball (that's Lancaster's 'wide' play) or kicks. That's the extent of Englands attacking play through the back division and half the time Hodgson makes himself unavailable to the 9.

Whilst Youngs may be miles off form it's not him that's stopping the backline moving. Even Dickson when he came on only injected a tempo for 10 minutes. After that England fell flat because Dickson became easy to pick off, he was either going dart himself or pop to a forward. There were no other options as the backs were so easily containted.

Youngs should be sent back to his club to gain confidence

I agree he should be sent back to Tigers, there's no point him being with England unless something in the make up of the England team changes. He can't play that style and he is out of form, waste of time keeping him in the squad. Incidentally it could be a bonus him returning to Tigers as I saw the second half slump against Exeter co-incided with young Sam Harrison getting subbed at half time (I presume injury) and being replaced by Grindal.

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

What a surprise! Maybe if your Leicester boy, Youngs didn't play so badly England might have performed better in both matches?

Good old mantry of in doubt blame Leicester. The embarrassingly one dimensional tactics, lack of kicking game plan, lack of any back line threat and coherent forward attack must all be down to Ben Youngs not being on form. Lancaster is asking Youngs to play a conservative and defensive game plan, which if you've got Ben Youngs is a complete waste. He can't do it (first half of the Italian game being a prime example) so why bother picking him? You either play with some kind of attacking game plan and include Youngs or you continue the defensive kick the ball away as soon as possible affair and release him back to Tigers. Got to be one or the other.

At the minute Lancaster and Farrell Senior look badly out of their depth. Sadly it's true they aren't play like Sarries, Sarries may be dull but they are clever in their play. They kick selectively and to apply pressure, they carefully build their forwards attacks to draw in the opposition defence and then actually use backs moves to change the point of attack. All of which is carefully orchastrated so that 99% of the time they have numbers in support to make sure it works, they hunt as a pack. Clearly Farrell doesn't have a lot to do with the coaching at Sarries because they certainly don't play the terrible incoherent stuff he and Lancaster have dreamed up.

Sam your Leicester colleague Portnoy is pointing the finger at Saracens. Only fair I do the same.Youngs has been in awful form for England since his cameo against Argentina. Foden was just as bad on the day but he has been a lot more consistent overall.

England has been stodgy in attack with Youngs at scrum half, England looked better when Dickson came on.

Youngs should be sent back to his club to gain confidence - even if it means he'll face my side. Youngs is a good player, low on confidence and form.

Can the knives please wait until after the England vs Wales game?

Oh and Sam I can praise some of the Leicester guys too - Cole has been playing well. Parling's cameos have been pretty good.

beshocked, If you read carefully, I wasn't pointing my finger at the Sarries, but Lancaster's declaration that England wouldn't be copying their style of play. But to me they are.

p.s. I noted your earlier comment regarding clubs' IW losses in the Jeff. (Pasted it to notebook).

When the 6Ns are over, there'll be much more to compare.

people keep banging on about 'playing his style' but to be frank Young's 'style' seems to dither, dither, step, step, pass.

it was pretty awful on Sat and like someone pointed out he completely failed to notice the ball on two occasions he was in charge of it.

not creative, not attacking. it doesn't matter what the players are being coached atm, there is nothing stopping him doing that himself if he sees options available.

it was pretty awful on Sat and like someone pointed out he completely failed to notice the ball on two occasions he was in charge of it.

You including the one where the player on that floor throws the ball out of the ruck? I'm pretty sure that's a failure at under 9 level rugby, presentation of the ball is pretty standard stuff at that level let alone professional level.

people keep banging on about 'playing his style' but to be frank Young's 'style' seems to dither, dither, step, step, pass

Draws the opposition defence up and gives you the chance to pop the ball to a runner who is attacking a gap. In the first half when he was passing directly from the base the pod system England had was being easily picked off.

Rubbish, draws the dying breath out the players as they wait for him to pass the ruddy ball more like. Never mind the poor forwards in the tangled heap doing their level best to hold the opposition off (too few committed to rucks).

I quote Mr Moore for the case for the Prosecution

"One point made about scrum-half Youngs is that he needs to show he can control a game, but demonstrating this does not mean playing with slow deliberation – it means making the right decisions."

It is the problem with Youngs game that he struggles to control a game unless it is at his ideal tempo and he struggles to raise the tempo on his own. Care had similar problems after he first burst onto the scene as did Genia for Australia, both of them have had to mature and develop to gain those skills (Genia more successfully) now Youngs will have to do the same. Hence why I think it would be better to drop him completely if England don't intend to change the way they are playing as otherwise it's just the slow erosion of his confidence. Better to send him back to Tigers and let him work on his development.

England supporters hope that we can get it together in fixing our leaky defensive line, our wobbly lineout, our counter-rucking philosophy and our ability to string together some coherent attacking play. A lot of this hope rests with returning players Flood, Tuilagi and even Lawes and some of it is with our rookies Morgan and Dickson. It was always thus with England. We big up the guys who we know least about into the next "saviour" it is massively unfair.

Our national coaches destroy talent. Don’t ask me how. I'm not privy to training. As day follows night though that is what they do. It is the no.1 selection criterion for the job.

I like the look of Dickson: he reminds me of Ben Youngs when he started for England. Eventually he'll play like Youngs does now…

Wales supporters know that they have their machine running in fine order in all departments. They too have returning players who will be fighting to get back in this side.

I'm an evidence man myself. Call me old fashioned if you want to but I have seen it from Wales and I have lost faith in English players' ability to pass and catch a rugby ball and to run good enough support lines. If we do string passes together I predict we'll simply go laterally across the field and end up being bundled into touch.

Wales by 12 at Twickenham. 20 if it was Cardiff.

eirebilly wrote:England have won 2 games without showing anything. You just know that there is an extra gear to go up for them.

If they dont make changes I dont think they have.

They need to address problems at 8,9,10 and 12. They need a natural 8, they need more zip from 9 and more creativity from 10 and 12. The players are there to make a difference - Morgan, Dickson, Flood and Manu

Also not yet getting the required performances at 6 or from the back three.

Interestingly the front five have been ok

England have won 2 games without showing anything. You just know that there is an extra gear to go up for them.

I think the only other gear available is reverse... I honestly can't see us creating anything against a defence as good as Wales without something changing.

Here's my team for Wales for all the sodding difference it will make

sheridan
mears
stevens
borthwick
botha
moody
dowson
easter
youngs
wilkinson
farrell
banahan
vainikolo
cueto/varndell whatever
monye

whatever

Triangulation wrote:Here's my team for Wales for all the sodding difference it will make

sheridan
mears
stevens
borthwick
botha
moody
dowson
easter
youngs
wilkinson
farrell
banahan
vainikolo
cueto/varndell whatever
monye

whatever

Keep it up, Tri. I think you know it's working. The more gloomy you try to be, the more often you seem to pull the win out of the bag. You'll have to get very down indeed for the next games as the considered 'easy' ones are now over. But I think it might work once or twice more

It's crazy Tri but it might just work...

beshocked wrote:Another point - the conditions in Scotland and Italy were awful. The state of the pitch in Italy was particularly poor. Hardly the conditions for free flowing running rugby.

I do totaly agree with you on that, but what realy get up my nose is, that every body is saying how bad England have been so far, but nobody is giving any credit to the way Scotland and Italy have played. They have argubly been push overs.

So give some respect to both Scotland and Italy, and also remeber that Lancaster as only been charge for 2 games and won 2 games.

bluestonevedder wrote:You only have to look at the improvements he's already made to the squad in terms of their mental strength, grit, determination, and sense of team spirit to understand that he has a lot of potential, and just needs a little time for his knowledge of the game to transpire onto the pitch. As a spectator, I already feel as if our squad leave the pitch having given everything, and understand that wearing the rose should not be taken for granted.

That's a feeling that i've really missed the last few years.

To me the most important thing? He's taken away Wells "cheat at all costs" mentality and replaced it with a hard tackling discipline. I much prefer it and think it'll give the likes of Wales far less chances to get a comfortable lead or yellow card advantages.

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

What a surprise! Maybe if your Leicester boy, Youngs didn't play so badly England might have performed better in both matches?

Good old mantry of in doubt blame Leicester. The embarrassingly one dimensional tactics, lack of kicking game plan, lack of any back line threat and coherent forward attack must all be down to Ben Youngs not being on form. Lancaster is asking Youngs to play a conservative and defensive game plan, which if you've got Ben Youngs is a complete waste. He can't do it (first half of the Italian game being a prime example) so why bother picking him? You either play with some kind of attacking game plan and include Youngs or you continue the defensive kick the ball away as soon as possible affair and release him back to Tigers. Got to be one or the other.

At the minute Lancaster and Farrell Senior look badly out of their depth. Sadly it's true they aren't play like Sarries, Sarries may be dull but they are clever in their play. They kick selectively and to apply pressure, they carefully build their forwards attacks to draw in the opposition defence and then actually use backs moves to change the point of attack. All of which is carefully orchastrated so that 99% of the time they have numbers in support to make sure it works, they hunt as a pack. Clearly Farrell doesn't have a lot to do with the coaching at Sarries because they certainly don't play the terrible incoherent stuff he and Lancaster have dreamed up.

Sam your Leicester colleague Portnoy is pointing the finger at Saracens. Only fair I do the same.Youngs has been in awful form for England since his cameo against Argentina. Foden was just as bad on the day but he has been a lot more consistent overall.

England has been stodgy in attack with Youngs at scrum half, England looked better when Dickson came on.

Youngs should be sent back to his club to gain confidence - even if it means he'll face my side. Youngs is a good player, low on confidence and form.

Can the knives please wait until after the England vs Wales game?

Oh and Sam I can praise some of the Leicester guys too - Cole has been playing well. Parling's cameos have been pretty good.

I do wonder if your still in school sometimes with comments like that! "But Miss, he started it first!" lol

mawhis wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:At the minute Lancaster and Farrell Senior look badly out of their depth.

+1

England need someone with experience coaching at the highest level, and dealing with the pressure that comes with that. Lancaster doesn't fit the bill.

but i think he could. It is maybe a step-up a bit early though.

This caretaker role was never going to be easy. I hope he can become an assistant to Nick Mallet (that's who i reckon will get it) and become a future head coach.

trebellbobaggins wrote:

mawhis wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:At the minute Lancaster and Farrell Senior look badly out of their depth.

+1

England need someone with experience coaching at the highest level, and dealing with the pressure that comes with that. Lancaster doesn't fit the bill.

but i think he could. It is maybe a step-up a bit early though.

This caretaker role was never going to be easy. I hope he can become an assistant to Nick Mallet (that's who i reckon will get it) and become a future head coach.

I'm not saying that the 'Lancastrians' are out of their depth. But the performances so far look only at best neck-and-neck with the old regime. Hopefully the performances will improve as we go onwards through the 6Ns. Just as they declined last year.

Nick Mallet or any foreign coach would be a retrograde step imo. How many foreign coaches have been ultimately successful at the very highest level?

Nathan very constructive comment from you as usual.

By the way I think the Tigers man Rowntree has been doing a good job.

Portnoy, Warren Gatland has done alright with Wales hasn't he?

Lancaster's hands have been tied because his first and 2nd choice outside centres - Tuilagi and Trinder have been injured. Also missing the likes of Lawes and Wood haven't helped matters.

Lancaster picked Youngs for the Italy game to give him another chance. He failed miserably so will be dropped. Fair enough I say.

It's easy for you armchair pundits to slate Lancaster but at least he's got rid of some of the dead wood like Moody,Easter,Tindall and Haskell.

MJ made inexplicable howlers like continuing to resort with an out of form Youngs, continually picking the hopelessly out of depth Hape (but in the crunch game picked Flood out of position at 12). Picking a crocked Moody instead of the in form Wood.Picking Stevens instead of Corbisiero was yet another mistake.

Lancaster can only work with what he's got. He has picked his side mostly based on form.

I agree a massive improvement is needed vs Wales but if Lancaster makes the right choices I think most of you will be pleased with the team he picks.

Haskell dead wood ..!?! he was one of our best players at the rwc

Haskell's overrated. A waste of space. Plus his attitude is awful. Was a disgrace in the RWC.

Why shouldn't they play like Saracens.

They won the Premiership last season. They are second in the Premiership this season. They were the only English team to win their group in the Heineken Cup and earn a home quarter final.

Their coach Farrell is a Saracens man and the Sarries group of Strettle, Farrell, Barritt, Hodgson, Stevens and Botha are all getting game time for England.

red_stag wrote:Why shouldn't they play like Saracens.

They won the Premiership last season. They are second in the Premiership this season. They were the only English team to win their group in the Heineken Cup and earn a home quarter final.

Their coach Farrell is a Saracens man and the Sarries group of Strettle, Farrell, Barritt, Hodgson, Stevens and Botha are ale bl getting game time for England.

Would you be happy Stag.

A win is a win - yes.

But with no change in style whatsoever despite changing coach.
Would you be happy?

Sarries play boring, winning rugby. True.

What happened to the style of England's 6Ns class of 2011?

Portnoy - your 2003 winning team played at times often very boring rugby.

But I think England had dreadful indiscipline problems under Johnson. Initially it was on the field. Remember when they got 10 yellow cards in 4 matches.

It then bubbled off the pitch. The harrassement claims against a hotel maid. The RWC report fiasco. The claims players cared more about money and boozing than training hard. The off field controversies, the ball switching problems, the constant criticism over Ashtons swan dives and doing nothing about it.

Lancaster I think is doing great stuff. Instill the right set of values amongst his players. Cancel their state of the art Potuguese holiday camps and take them training in Leeds instead. Pick young players who are winning matches for their clubs and get them used to winning matches internationally. Find out where the strenghts and weaknesses are and develop a plan from there.

Its all baby steps but he has the right attitude.

He has brought in mega changes and has 2 wins out of 2. England should be aiming for 2nd place and if they could claim another 2 wins that would be an amazing achievement for this group - home matches against Wales and Ireland with a trip to Paris. I think its doable.

They are being written off in Ireland too. I heard Alan Quinlan and Gerry Thornley criticising them yesterday but its the right approach for me.

There has been a massive change in style both on and off the field for me. How could there not be.

Great post stag. Reassuring to hear someone feels the way I do!

No problem Blue.

I think England are definitely moving forward. In fact I would say all teams are making real progress on last season already the one's making least progress are Ireland so far (though they only played 1 match).